Princes Evidence (was Digest No. 4788)

"I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt. I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults." Doug here: It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support? (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")

Your are a generous person Doug! I'd love to think it, but I bet it was more to do with a pretty, no beautiful, and inaccessible woman. You know, he wanted the challenge of the ones who no-one thought he could get? H

On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 15:04, Douglas Eugene Stamate <destama@...> wrote:
"I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt. I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults." Doug here: It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support? (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")

Hi Hilary,
Please would you provide more information regarding Elizabeth Mowbray.There's very little information about her on wikipedia and I don't know where else to look.
Thank you
Kathryn x

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
> Hilary wrote:
>
>
> "I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt.
> I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults."
>
> Doug here:
> It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support?
> (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")
>

Try her as Elizabeth Talbot linked with her daughter Anne Mowbray who was exhumed in the 1980s (?) but failing that JAH's book on Eleanor the Secret Queen goes into a lot of detail, as she endowed Christ's College Cambridge in her sister's name in about 1495. Her husband, John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk died suddenly and quite young. Thereafter Edward IV chose to marry his younger son Richard of Shrewsbury to Anne Mowbray their daughter, but if Anne died (which she did as a child of about 9) her lands still went to his son and the Crown. The Dukedom of Norfolk went to John Howard who was the next male in line and died with Richard at Bosworth. Elizabeth died in the Minories in London in the early 1500s and there are some conspiracy theories around her, the Darcys and Montgomerys Hope this helps. I haven't checked the dates but it should give you a lead. Regards H.

On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 15:49, "kathryng56@..." <kathryng56@...> wrote:
Hi Hilary,
Please would you provide more information regarding Elizabeth Mowbray.There's very little information about her on wikipedia and I don't know where else to look.
Thank you
Kathryn x

--- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@...> wrote:
>
> Hilary wrote:
>
>
> "I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt.
> I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults."
>
> Doug here:
> It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support?
> (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")
>

Hi Hilary,
Thank you so much.
Kathryn x


--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Try her as Elizabeth Talbot linked with her daughter Anne Mowbray who was exhumed in the 1980s (?) but failing that JAH's book on Eleanor the Secret Queen goes into a lot of detail, as she endowed Christ's College Cambridge in her sister's name in about 1495. Her husband, John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk died suddenly and quite young. Thereafter Edward IV chose to marry his younger son Richard of Shrewsbury to Anne Mowbray their daughter, but if Anne died (which she did as a child of about 9) her lands still went to his son and the Crown. The Dukedom of Norfolk went to John Howard who was the next male in line and died with Richard at Bosworth.  Elizabeth died in the Minories in London in the early 1500s and there are some conspiracy theories around her, the Darcys and Montgomerys 
>  
> Hope this helps. I haven't checked the dates but it should give you a lead.  Regards   H.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 15:49, "kathryng56@..." <kathryng56@...> wrote:
>
>  
> Hi Hilary,
> Please would you provide more information regarding Elizabeth Mowbray.There's very little information about her on wikipedia and I don't know where else to look.
> Thank you
> Kathryn x
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@> wrote:
> >
> > Hilary wrote:
> >
> >
> > "I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt.
> > I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support?
> > (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")
> >
>

Pleasure. BTW it's Corpus Christi Cambridge, not Christs, I spotted the mistake afterwards. There was a rumour that Thomas Cosyn from there was Eleanor and Edward's son but his dates make him far too old. H.

On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 17:36, "kathryng56@..." <kathryng56@...> wrote:
Hi Hilary,
Thank you so much.
Kathryn x

--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Try her as Elizabeth Talbot linked with her daughter Anne Mowbray who was exhumed in the 1980s (?) but failing that JAH's book on Eleanor the Secret Queen goes into a lot of detail, as she endowed Christ's College Cambridge in her sister's name in about 1495. Her husband, John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk died suddenly and quite young. Thereafter Edward IV chose to marry his younger son Richard of Shrewsbury to Anne Mowbray their daughter, but if Anne died (which she did as a child of about 9) her lands still went to his son and the Crown. The Dukedom of Norfolk went to John Howard who was the next male in line and died with Richard at Bosworth.  Elizabeth died in the Minories in London in the early 1500s and there are some conspiracy theories around her, the Darcys and MontgomerysÂ
> Â
> Hope this helps. I haven't checked the dates but it should give you a lead. Regards  H.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 15:49, "kathryng56@..." <kathryng56@...> wrote:
>
> Â
> Hi Hilary,
> Please would you provide more information regarding Elizabeth Mowbray.There's very little information about her on wikipedia and I don't know where else to look.
> Thank you
> Kathryn x
>
> --- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@> wrote:
> >
> > Hilary wrote:
> >
> >
> > "I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt.
> > I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults."
> >
> > Doug here:
> > It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support?
> > (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")
> >
>

Hi Hilary,
Thank you.
Kathryn x


--- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
>
> Pleasure. BTW it's Corpus Christi Cambridge, not Christs, I spotted the mistake afterwards. There was a rumour that Thomas Cosyn from there was Eleanor and Edward's son but his dates make him far too old.  H.
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 17:36, "kathryng56@..." <kathryng56@...> wrote:
>
>  
> Hi Hilary,
> Thank you so much.
> Kathryn x
>
> --- In , Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@> wrote:
> >
> > Try her as Elizabeth Talbot linked with her daughter Anne Mowbray who was exhumed in the 1980s (?) but failing that JAH's book on Eleanor the Secret Queen goes into a lot of detail, as she endowed Christ's College Cambridge in her sister's name in about 1495. Her husband, John Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk died suddenly and quite young. Thereafter Edward IV chose to marry his younger son Richard of Shrewsbury to Anne Mowbray their daughter, but if Anne died (which she did as a child of about 9) her lands still went to his son and the Crown. The Dukedom of Norfolk went to John Howard who was the next male in line and died with Richard at Bosworth.  Elizabeth died in the Minories in London in the early 1500s and there are some conspiracy theories around her, the Darcys and Montgomerys 
> >  
> > Hope this helps. I haven't checked the dates but it should give you a lead.  Regards   H.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tuesday, 28 January 2014, 15:49, "kathryng56@" <kathryng56@> wrote:
> >
> >  
> > Hi Hilary,
> > Please would you provide more information regarding Elizabeth Mowbray.There's very little information about her on wikipedia and I don't know where else to look.
> > Thank you
> > Kathryn x
> >
> > --- In , "Douglas Eugene Stamate" <destama@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hilary wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > "I actually agree with all this and as you say it is fun to speculate. The person who surprises me most is Elizabeth Mowbray, who after the death of her daughter and the loss of the Mowbray lands to John Howard, actually had little to lose by speaking out to defend a sister she so clearly loved. The rest of the Talbots seem so deep in Lancaster; I wouldn't trust them an inch. I supposed when you think about it, like the remnants of the Beauchamps, there must have been many who yearned after the good old days when we were winning victories in France.Richard Beauchamp was a legend, Old Talbot was a legend; it must have been difficult coming down to earth with skirmishes in Blore Heath etc after the glories of Agincourt.
> > > I blame Edward for all of this - but I bet if we had film of him we'd fall for him, just as we're still fascinated by JFK even though we know all his faults."
> > >
> > > Doug here:
> > > It sort of possibly appears that Edward IV *may* have been trying to accomplish the uniting of York and Lancaster a quarter of a century prior to HT. Weren't both Eleanor Butler *and* Elizabeth Woodville members of families well-known for their lancastrian support?
> > > (If this comes through as a "blank" message please let me know and I'll resend by copying it out rather than using "cut-n-paste")
> > >
> >
>