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Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

2014-02-06 21:01:43

Nicholas Brown

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-06 21:50:07

liz williams

Judging by the Hollbein portrait of Erasmus, he looks more like a Henry Tudor by-blow that the son of that famously glamorous and good looking couple, Edward IV and Lizzie Woodville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holbein-erasmus.jpg

Seriously, Nicholas I've never heard that theory before and I've never heard of this lady either, sorry.
Liz From: Nicholas Brown <nico11238@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2014, 13:08
Subject: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-07 08:43:19

SandraMachin

That's exactly what I thought, Liz. You don't think...? I mean, naw, EW wouldn't have done THAT! Would she? <g> And no, I haven't heard the theory either. Sandra =^..^= From: liz williams Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:50 PM To: Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

Judging by the Hollbein portrait of Erasmus, he looks more like a Henry Tudor by-blow that the son of that famously glamorous and good looking couple, Edward IV and Lizzie Woodville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holbein-erasmus.jpg Seriously, Nicholas I've never heard that theory before and I've never heard of this lady either, sorry. Liz From: Nicholas Brown <nico11238@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2014, 13:08
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-07 13:55:35

Nicholas Brown

Looking at the picture of Erasmus, I tend to agree with you. The craggy features are more like Henry Tudor than Edward IV. Also, the images I have seen of Edward V - especially the one on the cover of the Michael Hicks book (which I think is contemporary) depict much softer features, and fuller lips, making him look a bit like a younger version of Perkin Warbeck - who I do think looks like a fairly good hybrid of EIV and EW. Faces can get more angular over the years, but probably not to that extent.

Thanks for getting back on this, for now I'll hold back on buying the book..

Nico

On Thursday, 6 February 2014, 21:50, liz williams <ferrymansdaughter@...> wrote:
Judging by the Hollbein portrait of Erasmus, he looks more like a Henry Tudor by-blow that the son of that famously glamorous and good looking couple, Edward IV and Lizzie Woodville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holbein-erasmus.jpg

Seriously, Nicholas I've never heard that theory before and I've never heard of this lady either, sorry.
Liz From: Nicholas Brown <nico11238@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2014, 13:08
Subject: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-07 21:43:23

liz williams

I doubt very much if he'd have been her type Sandra, far too stingy and not much fun! Liz
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 7 February 2014, 8:43
Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

That's exactly what I thought, Liz. You don't think...? I mean, naw, EW wouldn't have done THAT! Would she? <g> And no, I haven't heard the theory either. Sandra =^..^= From: liz williams Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:50 PM To: Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders Judging by the Hollbein portrait of Erasmus, he looks more like a Henry Tudor by-blow that the son of that famously glamorous and good looking couple, Edward IV and Lizzie Woodville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holbein-erasmus.jpg Seriously, Nicholas I've never heard that theory before and I've never heard of this lady either, sorry. Liz From: Nicholas Brown <nico11238@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2014, 13:08
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-07 21:59:28

SandraMachin

But if she was in a big enough miff with Big Ed....? No, you're right. HT is too stingy and po-faced. Uncle Jasper might be a better bet for some fun. I think. Actually, I have no idea about his character. A happy chappy, or another long-faced Tudor to give Wales a bad name? Does anyone know that sort of thing about him? Sandra =^..^= From: liz williams Sent: Friday, February 07, 2014 9:43 PM To: Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

I doubt very much if he'd have been her type Sandra, far too stingy and not much fun! Liz From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>
To:
Sent: Friday, 7 February 2014, 8:43
Subject: Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

That's exactly what I thought, Liz. You don't think...? I mean, naw, EW wouldn't have done THAT! Would she? <g> And no, I haven't heard the theory either. Sandra =^..^= From: liz williams Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:50 PM To: Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders Judging by the Hollbein portrait of Erasmus, he looks more like a Henry Tudor by-blow that the son of that famously glamorous and good looking couple, Edward IV and Lizzie Woodville. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holbein-erasmus.jpg Seriously, Nicholas I've never heard that theory before and I've never heard of this lady either, sorry. Liz From: Nicholas Brown <nico11238@...>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2014, 13:08
Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://www.ashbooks.co.uk/to-know-a-lion-by-his-claws-by-sarah-badders/

http://www.amazon.com/Know-Lion-His-Claws-Uncrowned/dp/1450217176/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391691385&sr=8-1&keywords=to+know+a+lion+by+his+claws+sarah+badders

I came across this book which suggests that the Princes in the Tower survived and went on to become Erasmus and Perkin Warbeck. I have heard a lot about Warbeck, and Leslau's ideas, but nothing about Edward V being Erasmus. Has there ever been any other reference to this theory?

The author says that she is a psychic, which makes me somewhat sceptical, but the sample on amazon.com looks well written. I'm wondering whether or not to order the book, because its quite expensive. I'm really impressed about how knowledgeable people are on this forum, so I'm wondering if anyone has read this particular book.

Also, does anyone think it could have been possible for Edward V and Erasmus to have been the same person?

Nico

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-08 18:32:29

justcarol67

Nico wrote:

"Looking at the picture of Erasmus, I tend to agree with you. The craggy features are more like Henry Tudor than Edward IV. Also, the images I have seen of Edward V - especially the one on the cover of the Michael Hicks book (which I think is contemporary) depict much softer features, and fuller lips, making him look a bit like a younger version of Perkin Warbeck - who I do think looks like a fairly good hybrid of EIV and EW. Faces can get more angular over the years, but probably not to that extent."

Carol responds:

I can't find the Michael Hicks cover you're referring to, but if the picture of Edward V (at that time technically "Edward Bastard"_ is the one of the "Princes in the Tower" by John Everett Millais,

http://arttattler.com/Images/Archive/Millais/PrincesintheTower.jpg

it's nineteenth century and based on guesswork (and romantic notions of childish innocence and wicked uncles). Erasmus was four years older than Edward V. I've never heard the theory that they were the same person.

Carol

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-08 20:29:32

nico11238

It isn't the Millais picture. Here is the amazon link for the Hicks book. Hicks says it is a rarely seen portrait from the Order of the Garter. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edward-Prince-Tower-Michael-Hicks/dp/075241996X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391886999&sr=1-1&keywords=edward+v+michael+hicks According to Wikipedia, there is some uncertainty about Erasmus' age and origins, but even so, I find this theory a bit far fetched. If I buy the book, I let you all know how I found it. Nico PS: I hope this goes through. I have been having some trouble with sending the messages.

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-08 20:43:18

liz williams

Thanks Nico, I've never seen that picture before. Liz
From: "nico11238@..." <nico11238@...>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 8 February 2014, 19:51
Subject: Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

It isn't the Millais picture. Here is the amazon link for the Hicks book. Hicks says it is a rarely seen portrait from the Order of the Garter. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Edward-Prince-Tower-Michael-Hicks/dp/075241996X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1391886999&sr=1-1&keywords=edward+v+michael+hicks According to Wikipedia, there is some uncertainty about Erasmus' age and origins, but even so, I find this theory a bit far fetched. If I buy the book, I let you all know how I found it. Nico PS: I hope this goes through. I have been having some trouble with sending the messages.

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-09 15:59:47

[email protected]

The portrait does not seem to me to be contemporary though,for the shape of the head looks very 16th century.

Eva

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-09 22:59:51

nico11238

That's interesting ... out of interest what are the differences?

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 08:41:23

[email protected]

I am sorry for writing "head" instead of "hat".Very embarassing!.The form of the hat does not look like late 15th century to me at all.

Eva

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 18:26:08

justcarol67

Nico wrote:

"It isn't the Millais picture. Here is the amazon link for the Hicks book. Hicks says it is a rarely seen portrait from the Order of the Garter. [snip]"

Carol responds:

Thanks for that link. I've never seen that picture before. Did Hicks provide a date? The Order of the Garter makes it sound authentic, but, surely, if it were contemporary, it would be better known? (It makes him look a bit older than he was and presents him as if he had been crowned, but I still prefer it to the sentimental "Princes in the Tower" rubbish we usually see.)

Carol

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 19:07:07

nico11238

You could be right about the hat. It looks a bit like the style in portraits of Edward VI. If that picture wasn't an actual likeness, then then the Royal Window at Canterbury Cathedral (c. 1482) may be the best indicator of what he looked like.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg

I wonder how accurate this is since his sisters all look like they are the same age, when the younger ones were only 7 and 3 at the time.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg (bottom of page).

---In , <eva.pitter@...> wrote:

I am sorry for writing "head" instead of "hat".Very embarassing!.The form of the hat does not look like late 15th century to me at all.

Eva

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 19:07:22

nico11238

I can see what you mean. The hat looks like the one in portraits of Edward VI. If this picture was not from his lifetime, then the best likeness would probably be the Royal Window in Canterbury Cathedral (c. 1482.)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg

One problem though with the accuracy of the Royal Window is that his sisters all look about about the same age when they were actually aged between 3 and 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Daughters_of_Edward_IV.jpg

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 19:20:03

SandraMachin

Might the wrong boy-king called Edward have been depicted ? Sandra =^..^= From: nico11238@... Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:31 PM To: Subject: RE: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg

One problem though with the accuracy of the Royal Window is that his sisters all look about about the same age when they were actually aged between 3 and 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Daughters_of_Edward_IV.jpg

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 19:39:44

EILEEN BATES

I think you might have something there Sandra although when I took a look on the inside cover of the book it does say "Edward V in his garter robes, a previous unknown portrait discovered in The Black Book (Garter Register). By permission of the deans and canons of Windsor"....Still it won't be the first time a portrait has been wrongly identified by professionals. Eileen
--- In , "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
>
> Might the wrong boy-king called Edward have been depicted ?
>
> Sandra
> =^..^=
>
> From: nico11238@...
> Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 4:31 PM
> To:
> Subject: RE: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders
>
>
> I can see what you mean. The hat looks like the one in portraits of Edward VI. If this picture was not from his lifetime, then the best likeness would probably be the Royal Window in Canterbury Cathedral (c. 1482.)
>
>
>
>
> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg
>
>
>
> One problem though with the accuracy of the Royal Window is that his sisters all look about about the same age when they were actually aged between 3 and 16.
>
>
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Daughters_of_Edward_IV.jpg
>

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 19:44:13

Hilary Jones

And it's idealised - they all have blonde hair, which is how Queens/princesses were portrayed, like the Madonna. H

On Monday, 10 February 2014, 16:31, "nico11238@..." <nico11238@...> wrote:
I can see what you mean. The hat looks like the one in portraits of Edward VI. If this picture was not from his lifetime, then the best likeness would probably be the Royal Window in Canterbury Cathedral (c. 1482.)

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg
One problem though with the accuracy of the Royal Window is that his sisters all look about about the same age when they were actually aged between 3 and 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Daughters_of_Edward_IV.jpg

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-10 20:19:33

Pamela Bain

So that is why they look like plastic mannequins (snark, snark)!

From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2014 1:44 PM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badders

And it's idealised - they all have blonde hair, which is how Queens/princesses were portrayed, like the Madonna. H

On Monday, 10 February 2014, 16:31, "nico11238@..." <nico11238@...> wrote:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Edward_V._Royal_Window_Canterbury_Cathedral.jpg

One problem though with the accuracy of the Royal Window is that his sisters all look about about the same age when they were actually aged between 3 and 16.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Daughters_of_Edward_IV.jpg

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-15 11:40:56

[email protected]

When was the Garter Book written? Or the part about Edward V?
I am certain that the picture was made in the 16th century.Even if it is meant to depict EV,he certainly wears
an EVI hat. So the likeness is debatable. I had my doubts the moment I saw it. May be a historian, like Hicks need not bother with the trifle of differences in style of dresses through the periods of time, which I think can
tell a lot.
Eva

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-16 07:33:04

nico11238

I don't know when the garter book was written, but I think you are right and the picture probably does date from around the 1550s.

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-16 08:10:55

pansydobersby

This Garter Book was commissioned by Henry VIII in the mid-1530s.
Pansy

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-16 13:27:45

[email protected]

Thank you, Pansy
Eva

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-18 20:28:16

[email protected]

Hi Eva,
Not sure if I have replied.If not I'm sorry.I received your email pictures but could not access the second drawing.The large version of the SoA painting is truly lovely.If I can get my email addresses to work I will be able to send you some images in return.
Kathryn x

Re: Book about Edward V: To Know a Lion by its Claws by Sarah Badder

2014-02-19 20:54:48

[email protected]

Hi Kathryn,
Yes, you have answered me already. I am sorry you could not open the second picture. I don't know why.
Possibly I should have given my e-mail address at the NPG homepage, Which I had to do when I wanted to
make a print of the NPG Paintig some time ago. I am glad that you like the large version of the SOA painting!
Looking forward to images from you.
Eva

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