Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Hello All - I've been trying to determine whether the use of surnames was universal in Yorkshire by the latter half of the fifteenth century, or if lower-status folk would still go without them. The question occurred to me when looking at various online sites that provide lists of names, both given names and surnames, gleaned from tax rolls, wills, and other documents of the period. One would think that since the average peasant wouldn't have left a will or may have been too poor to pay taxes, rich folk are probably overrepresented on these lists, which would explain the preponderance of Norman French names in an area of the country with a high Saxon and Norse population. Any help anyone could provide will be much appreciated! Tamara Can anyone steer me in the

Hello Tamara, if you look at the York House Books (same with the Coventry Leet Books) you'll see quite a lot of ordinary folk listed - for example some tradesmen had to sign up to maintain the bridges and I think we can draw the conclusion that surnames as we know them today were quite common. The 'de Ingleby' or whatever, denoting the place you came from seems to go out in the mid fourteenth century. I've done a lot of digging round this. Before that of course if you were of Norman descent (and therefore a bit higher up the social pecking order) you get the Fitzrichard, Fitzeustace, etc which I say from bitter experience, drives you mad. If you were lower down the order then you were still 'de Ingleby'. One thing to watch out for though is that those who came over with the Conqueror were given lands in a variety of areas so the Barons Warkworth, who owned Barnards Castle, also were given Chester, bits of Northants and Hunts, bits of what we now call Liverpool and Clavering in Essex. So John of Clavering can also be John Baron Warkworth in a different context. It's something that if you've done a bit of genealogy from 1841 to 1537 you find it hard to get your head round because folks in general tended to be static in that period. So you can also get a 'peasant' or retainer occasionally moving from one estate to the other eg Jo Brown who worked in Yorkshire might find himself working on a new sheep farming estate in Northants. All adds to the rich texture of research. Hope this helps a bit. Cheers H.

On Thursday, 6 March 2014, 22:37, "khafara@..." <khafara@...> wrote:
Hello All - I've been trying to determine whether the use of surnames was universal in Yorkshire by the latter half of the fifteenth century, or if lower-status folk would still go without them. The question occurred to me when looking at various online sites that provide lists of names, both given names and surnames, gleaned from tax rolls, wills, and other documents of the period. One would think that since the average peasant wouldn't have left a will or may have been too poor to pay taxes, rich folk are probably overrepresented on these lists, which would explain the preponderance of Norman French names in an area of the country with a high Saxon and Norse population. Any help anyone could provide will be much appreciated! Tamara Can anyone steer me in the

Thanks, Hilary!
Unfortunately it looks like the York House Books are out of print and not online, so I'm sunk unless by some miracle a used set turns up (and turns upp for less than a hundred pounds). But at least I now know that surnames were close to universal even for poor folk in Yorkshire!
What spurred all of this was reading in PMK's book *The Yorkist Age* about a servant at Middleham named Redeheid who Richard had ordered punished for abusing a visitor from York. I later found out that his full name (or at least a fuller version of his name) was Thomas Redeheid, so "Redeheid" might not have been a true surname in that it might not have been passed on to his progeny, if any, but may have been a descriptor, as a Scot informs me that "redeheid" is Scots for "redhead".
Tamara

I see they are available from the society ...£42 not including postage..

Hi Tamara,
Not an expert just thought rede(anglo saxon) could also mean counselled, heid not sure....heed maybe...don't know. Good luck finding out.There are books about placenames and origins that might prove helpful too.
Kathryn x

I didn't know about the surnames not being in common use in medieval times and I wonder whether it has anything to do with what race one is descended from. My son in law is Cumbrian, and his name is Grisdale, (pronounced Grizedale), as in the area in the Lakes, Grizedale Forest). Presumably that could be a..........person from Grizedale or a personal surname. I am told the surname is Viking.. (He tells me it means, valley of the pigs).
I also had a friend who sadly died last year, whose maiden name was Cleghorn, which she also told me was Viking.
Were the people named after the places, or the places named after the people, and is there a different tradition depending on what race or tribe one is descended from?

Thoughts anyone?

Jess
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Fri, Mar 7, 2014 9:41:32 PM

Hi Tamara,
Not an expert just thought rede(anglo saxon) could also mean counselled, heid not sure....heed maybe...don't know. Good luck finding out.There are books about placenames and origins that might prove helpful too.
Kathryn x

That would make sense, Kathryn.

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Baptising his cat? Oh, Hilary, what a wonderful story. Please tell me he called it Henry and then gave it the snip. Sandra =^..^= From: Hilary Jones Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 9:35 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again!Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon, where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Perfectly possible, Sandra. The name comes from Cockerham on the Fylde coast in Morecambe bay in Lancashire, and our branch from the villages of North and South Cockerham in Devon.
The family always smile at the amount of Cockrams' in the Exeter telephone directory compared with the couple we can find in Essex.

I am amazed that you have such incredible knowledge and are willing to share it with me.
Thank you very much.

Jess
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:15:11 AM

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon, where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Dear Sandra,

This is just a personal thank you from me regarding the origins of my family surname. I was so excited I nearly fell off the sofa. This was the missing link between Lancashire and Devon which I have been wondering about for years. I did Google it some time ago and found all the links between the Cockrams and the Holland's, but I had no idea of the royal connection.
I immediately rang my brother in law in Florida so he could tell my sister. They live in Cornwall, (and their daughters live in Devon ) when they are not at their Florida house.
It all makes so much sense now.
Thank you so much.

Jess xxxxxcx
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:15:11 AM

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon, where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

My maiden name is Stockley which I could trace back to Northants from 1524. But then a US cousin (a descendant of one John Stockley whom I can trace who went to Accomack Virginia in 1623) said they must have originated from Staffs (William Stokley was Escheator for Staffs/Salop at the cusp of the 14/15th centuries see the CPR) and from there, after much argument (!!) I got back to 'de Stokesley' next to Ingleby in N Yorks. After that it was to prove that the Stokleys (Staffs), Styuecles (Hunts), Stukeleys (Devon/Dorset) and Stockesleys (the one who baptised his cat) were all related and they were. So never ever give up on this and keep falling off your sofas. We had three boars as our badge, rather nice. :) And thank gawd for the folks from the US who are tracing ancestors of George Washington. If you have a connection with Northants from that you can get a lot. H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 14:25, Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...> wrote:
Dear Sandra, This is just a personal thank you from me regarding the origins of my family surname. I was so excited I nearly fell off the sofa. This was the missing link between Lancashire and Devon which I have been wondering about for years. I did Google it some time ago and found all the links between the Cockrams and the Holland's, but I had no idea of the royal connection.
I immediately rang my brother in law in Florida so he could tell my sister. They live in Cornwall, (and their daughters live in Devon ) when they are not at their Florida house.
It all makes so much sense now.
Thank you so much. Jess xxxxxcx
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:15:11 AM

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon, where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire? Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows. Jess Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

I don't know Sandra. I do hope he did.But he worked for 'fat Henry' until thankfully he died before the worst ot his master's excesses. He was John Stockesley Bishop of London who seems to have been a bit of a right-wing rebel and wouldn't have lasted. Not a particularly nice person, he was in the Thomas More camp of keeping heretics chained in his basement - yes there was a lot going on before Henry waded in. JS came from Collyweston (MB's home after HT became king) and seems to have been sponsored by MB - one of her Welles relatives married into the family. As someone on here once said, MB looked after her own - unless they baptised a cat!! :). H (In mitigation, my dad and all his family were lovely but very upright and ambitious - his grandmother was a Salvationist :) )

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 9:58, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> wrote:
Baptising his cat? Oh, Hilary, what a wonderful story. Please tell me he called it Henry and then gave it the snip. Sandra =^..^= From: Hilary Jones Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 9:35 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire? Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

My maiden name is Machin, as witness my email address, but I do not really know how far back we go. If during research, anyone happens upon a Machin/Machen/Maychen/Machon/Machyn and so on, I would love to know. Presumably the diarist, Henry Machin/Machyn, born 1496-ish, is one of my lot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Machyn And the Thomas Machen (born 1541-ish) who has such a splendid memorial in Gloucester Cathedral. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Machen. My father's family came from Bridport, Dorset, and were Unitarians, because his mother thought they were the best hymn-singers. As good a reason as any, I suppose. I don't think we have any cat-baptisers. Nothing so interesting. I can just see MB's lips twitching with outrage. Sandra =^..^= From: Hilary Jones Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 4:27 PM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

I don't know Sandra. I do hope he did.But he worked for 'fat Henry' until thankfully he died before the worst ot his master's excesses. He was John Stockesley Bishop of London who seems to have been a bit of a right-wing rebel and wouldn't have lasted. Not a particularly nice person, he was in the Thomas More camp of keeping heretics chained in his basement - yes there was a lot going on before Henry waded in. JS came from Collyweston (MB's home after HT became king) and seems to have been sponsored by MB - one of her Welles relatives married into the family. As someone on here once said, MB looked after her own - unless they baptised a cat!! :). H (In mitigation, my dad and all his family were lovely but very upright and ambitious - his grandmother was a Salvationist :) )

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 9:58, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> wrote:
Baptising his cat? Oh, Hilary, what a wonderful story. Please tell me he called it Henry and then gave it the snip. Sandra =^..^= From: Hilary Jones Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 9:35 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire? Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

There's a book called "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances and
Joseph Gies (they also wrote "Life in a Medieval Castle" and "Life in
a Medieval City" -- used copies are inexpensive, and a UK title called
"Daily Life in Medieval Times" combines all three).

They also wrote a lot of other medieval-specific titles that are a
treasure trove of reliable detail for anyone writing in the period.
But note that they write only up to the 14th century...then again, not
much changed in the 15th. The Wikipedia article here lists their
career and works:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies

The first book has an extensive discussion regarding names/surnames.

--
"None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its
cussedness; but we can try" - Mark Twain

Sorry...hit send too soon. I meant to add that the "Village" book has
a detailed discussion regarding villager and commoner surnames on
pages 69-71. The "Castle" book doesn't list names or surnames in the
index. The "City" book discusses merchant and craftsman names on pages
77-79.



On Sat, Mar 8, 2014 at 9:54 AM, wednesdaymac . <wednesday.mac@...> wrote:
> There's a book called "Life in a Medieval Village" by Frances and
> Joseph Gies (they also wrote "Life in a Medieval Castle" and "Life in
> a Medieval City" -- used copies are inexpensive, and a UK title called
> "Daily Life in Medieval Times" combines all three).
>
> They also wrote a lot of other medieval-specific titles that are a
> treasure trove of reliable detail for anyone writing in the period.
> But note that they write only up to the 14th century...then again, not
> much changed in the 15th. The Wikipedia article here lists their
> career and works:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_and_Joseph_Gies
>
> The first book has an extensive discussion regarding names/surnames.
>
> --
> "None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its
> cussedness; but we can try" - Mark Twain



--
"None of us can have as many virtues as the fountain-pen, or half its
cussedness; but we can try" - Mark Twain

I am pleased to have been of help, Jess. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 2:22 PM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Dear Sandra,

This is just a personal thank you from me regarding the origins of my family surname. I was so excited I nearly fell off the sofa. This was the missing link between Lancashire and Devon which I have been wondering about for years. I did Google it some time ago and found all the links between the Cockrams and the Holland's, but I had no idea of the royal connection.
I immediately rang my brother in law in Florida so he could tell my sister. They live in Cornwall, (and their daughters live in Devon ) when they are not at their Florida house.
It all makes so much sense now.
Thank you so much.

Jess xxxxxcx
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:15:11 AM

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon, where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him. Sandra =^..^= From: Jessie Skinner Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM To: Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon. However, it also derives from Lancashire. Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: [Richard III Society Forum] RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was. The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins. Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:
Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again! Jan.

Sent from my iPad
On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Hi Ladies,

I have York ancestors. I have traced back as far as Richard York, born October 6, 1620 in Olney, Northhamptonshire and who immigrated to New Hampshire in 1652. I can see the registries, but they are faint and difficult to read. So, could these folks have been in the sources sited?

Thank you

From: [mailto: ] On Behalf Of Hilary Jones
Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 10:07 AM
To:
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire ?

My maiden name is Stockley which I could trace back to Northants from 1524. But then a US cousin (a descendant of one John Stockley whom I can trace who went to Accomack Virginia in 1623) said they must have originated from Staffs (William Stokley was Escheator for Staffs/Salop at the cusp of the 14/15th centuries see the CPR) and from there, after much argument (!!) I got back to 'de Stokesley' next to Ingleby in N Yorks . After that it was to prove that the Stokleys (Staffs), Styuecles (Hunts), Stukeleys (Devon/Dorset) and Stockesleys (the one who baptised his cat) were all related and they were. So never ever give up on this and keep falling off your sofas. We had three boars as our badge, rather nice. :)

And thank gawd for the folks from the US who are tracing ancestors of George Washington. If you have a connection with Northants from that you can get a lot. H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 14:25, Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...> wrote:

Dear Sandra,

This is just a personal thank you from me regarding the origins of my family surname. I was so excited I nearly fell off the sofa. This was the missing link between Lancashire and Devon which I have been wondering about for years. I did Google it some time ago and found all the links between the Cockrams and the Holland 's, but I had no idea of the royal connection.
I immediately rang my brother in law in Florida so he could tell my sister. They live in Cornwall , (and their daughters live in Devon ) when they are not at their Florida house.
It all makes so much sense now.
Thank you so much.

Jess xxxxxcx
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> ;
To: < > ;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 11:15:11 AM

Jess, is it possible your Cockram ancestors had some connection with John Holland, Earl of Huntingdon, 1st Duke of Exeter, younger half-brother of Richard II? His branch of the Holland/Holand/de Holande family hailed from Upholland in Lancashire, and he was born there, but his powerbase became lands in Devon , where Dartington Hall was his favoured residence. He might well have had men from Lancashire with him.

Sandra

=^..^=

From: Jessie Skinner

Sent: Saturday, March 08, 2014 11:01 AM

To:

Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire ?

Thank you, Hilary, I find it fascinating too. My married surname Skinner is obviously from the leather and tanning trade, but my maiden name was Cockram, which is Saxon and from Devon . However, it also derives from Lancashire . Did my ancestors originally move from Lancashire to Devon ? We're they the same or different families? Was the name derived from them or did they get the name from the place.
Who knows.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> ;
To: < > ;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Sat, Mar 8, 2014 9:35:01 AM

Yes I love the Yorkist Age though I think he makes it sound a bit more civilised than it sometimes was.

The question about the people being named after the places or the places after the people is a good one. My father's lot were from Yorkshire and took their surname from the place in the usual 'de' way. Like you say, the original place names often had something to do with the landscape. But then when some of them moved to Dorset the place was named after them - presumably because that branch had gone up in the world? Same with the branch that moved to Hunts. And of course the spellings varied with pronunciation in each region so it takes quite a lot of linking and ferreting to work out that they were actually cousins.

Unfortunately, rather than being of good Saxon or Viking stock I think they were involved with Harold losing his eye! And then, heaven forfend, they were Lancaster through and through. One was actually told off my MB for baptising his cat. I would love to have been a fly on the wall :) :) H

On Saturday, 8 March 2014, 8:27, Jan Mulrenan <janmulrenan@...> wrote:

Thank you for these! I was so pleased to dip into "The Yorkist Age" again!

Jan.

Sent from my iPad

On 8 Mar 2014, at 01:39, <khafara@...> wrote:

By the way, here is an online version of the Coventry Leet Books Hilary mentioned:
https://archive.org/details/coventryleetboo00unkngoog
(Bookmarking this sucker!)

And also, for those that don't have it, The Yorkist Age:
https://archive.org/details/yorkistage006563mbp

Jess
I have looked up the name Cockram for you.A very dear schoolfriend had the same maiden name.Check out the Internet Surname Database re Cockram.It's from Lancashire originally and was originally Cockerham.
the ham on the River Cocker (south of Lancaster and not far from where I live now.) My friend and I lived in Widnes on the River Mersey which is about 50/60 miles away not far from the original place!
Kathryn x

Hi Jess,
Good you already know.Just working up the messages.
Kathryn x

Dear Kathryn,

I just didn't know how the name moved from Lancashire to become such a strong factor amongst Devon farming families. Sandra's information gave me the missing link. I haven't ever seriously tried to do a family tree, because I do already know quite a lot about my ancestors on that side.
Once, a few years ago, I found a family tree on Google which was primarily for the Holland family, but came up because there were also lots of Cockrams on it. I have been looking for it ever since I received the message from Sandra, but I can't find it at all now.
Of course it doesn't mean there is any connection with my branch of the family, but it was why I got so exited when I heard about John Holland.
Maybe it is time for me to do some serious research.
I haven't ever been to Cockerham Lancashire, but it is not too far from where my daughters in laws live in the South Lakes, so I think I will have to arrange a visit.

Best Regards,

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 10:47:37 AM

Hi Jess,
Good you already know.Just working up the messages.
Kathryn x

Thank you Jess,I was very pleased to find out about your family connections and that my friend's family originated from so close to where I presently live.I'm sure you will enjoy your visit x
Kathryn x

I didn't tell you, but my great grandmother was a Buckingham! I didn't know when I became interested in Richard III that I would be opening a can of worms that could even impinge upon my own family history.
I don't know when we will get to Cockerham, our son in laws parents live on the Duddon Estuary on the south lakes peninsula, North of Barrow in Furness, so probably next time we visit. They are really at the top end of Morecambe Bay.
I think I need to visit Devon too.

Very best regards,

Jess x

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 4:25:54 PM

Thank you Jess,I was very pleased to find out about your family connections and that my friend's family originated from so close to where I presently live.I'm sure you will enjoy your visit x
Kathryn x

Hello Jess,
I live not far from Cockerham and know the area very well. If you visit the Duddon estuary area you will be near the place of Lambert Simnel's landing - which was Piel Island I think. You can see this from here across the bay which produces some of the finest sunsets and general views you will see. If you are not familiar with the area, Lancaster Castle has just opened to the public - and Hornby, which has a connection with Richard is just up the road, but is a private residence.

I wouldn't set too much store by Cockerham's being a Saxon place name. I seem to remember from The Origins of the British by Oppenheimer that there was virtually no Saxon component to the English DNA pool. It is odd then that most of the 'Celtic' peoples of Britain have a word that means Saxon for the English - including the Bretons. The Cocker element is Celtic as are all the names of rivers in the area.

But then very little of our traditional history is reliable as Ricardians will realise. The first recorded king of the 'West Saxons' from whom all kings of England claim descent had a Welsh name and gave his sons Welsh names...

The 'Normans' who invaded England were not all Normans - especially not the Plantagenets.

Kind regards
David




From: Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 10:49:10 PM

 

I didn't tell you, but my great grandmother was a Buckingham! I didn't know when I became interested in Richard III that I would be opening a can of worms that could even impinge upon my own family history.
I don't know when we will get to Cockerham, our son in laws parents live on the Duddon Estuary on the south lakes peninsula, North of Barrow in Furness, so probably next time we visit. They are really at the top end of Morecambe Bay.
I think I need to visit Devon too.

Very best regards,

Jess x

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 4:25:54 PM

 

Thank you Jess,I was very pleased to find out about your family connections and that my friend's family originated from so close to where I presently live.I'm sure you will enjoy your visit x
Kathryn x

Hi David, Welcome back! Now that's interesting because my dad's 'genealogical' history - which is always open to question ( :) ), is supposedly Norman but his DNA profile done a couple of years' ago was predominantly Celtic. And certainly the whole family, as far back as I can go with pictures, vered towards black hair, brown eyes and no great height. And as you so rightly say, the NW in particular was very inter-mixed with the Welsh - even those who claimed to have Norman descent. H

On Tuesday, 11 March 2014, 10:12, Durose David <daviddurose2000@...> wrote:
Hello Jess,
I live not far from Cockerham and know the area very well. If you visit the Duddon estuary area you will be near the place of Lambert Simnel's landing - which was Piel Island I think. You can see this from here across the bay which produces some of the finest sunsets and general views you will see. If you are not familiar with the area, Lancaster Castle has just opened to the public - and Hornby, which has a connection with Richard is just up the road, but is a private residence.

I wouldn't set too much store by Cockerham's being a Saxon place name. I seem to remember from The Origins of the British by Oppenheimer that there was virtually no Saxon component to the English DNA pool. It is odd then that most of the 'Celtic' peoples of Britain have a word that means Saxon for the English - including the Bretons. The Cocker element is Celtic as are all the names of rivers in the area.

But then very little of our traditional history is reliable as Ricardians will realise. The first recorded king of the 'West Saxons' from whom all kings of England claim descent had a Welsh name and gave his sons Welsh names...

The 'Normans' who invaded England were not all Normans - especially not the Plantagenets.

Kind regards
David




From: Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 10:49:10 PM

I didn't tell you, but my great grandmother was a Buckingham! I didn't know when I became interested in Richard III that I would be opening a can of worms that could even impinge upon my own family history.
I don't know when we will get to Cockerham, our son in laws parents live on the Duddon Estuary on the south lakes peninsula, North of Barrow in Furness, so probably next time we visit. They are really at the top end of Morecambe Bay.
I think I need to visit Devon too.
Very best regards, Jess x Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 4:25:54 PM

Thank you Jess,I was very pleased to find out about your family connections and that my friend's family originated from so close to where I presently live.I'm sure you will enjoy your visit x
Kathryn x

David Durose wrote:
"But then very little of our traditional history is reliable as Ricardians will realise. The first recorded king of the 'West Saxons' from whom all kings of England claim descent had a Welsh name and gave his sons Welsh names...
"The 'Normans' who invaded England were not all Normans - especially not the Plantagenets."

Carol responds:

As Hilary said, very interesting! Which "West Saxon" king are your referring to and what were the Plantagenets (the line beginning with Henry II, whose father was the first Plantagenet) if not Normans? True, Geoffrey Plantagenet (Henry's father) was, if I recall correctly, Angevin, but Henry's mother, Matilda (aka Maude the Empress) was Norman, wasn't she, with a bit of Saxon mixed in?

By the way, David, when I cut and paste your messages, Yahoo gives me all sorts of squares that look like they come from Microsoft Excel.

Carol, whose spelling checker wants to change "Durose" to "neuroses"!

Hi David,,

Well Isn't that a coincidence. I've been to Piel Island with my daughters in laws. Or nearly, we looked at it from the lifeboat station on the mainland, it was a very cold day.
This revelation from Sandra has thrown me completely into a spin. I knew some of the history of the surname, but it seems to me we have found an explanation as to why the families of Cockram and Buckingham were so much inter-married and living in such a cluster of tiny villages in the Exmoor / Exeter area of Devonshire, which has had me wondering since I was a schoolchild.
I am looking forward to reading the history of the Lancashire Holland's which Sandra linked for me and which I have downloaded to my Kindle.
Nothing is getting done around here at present, I am gripped.

Best Regards,

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Durose David <daviddurose2000@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re : Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Tue, Mar 11, 2014 10:12:02 AM

Hello Jess,
I live not far from Cockerham and know the area very well. If you visit the Duddon estuary area you will be near the place of Lambert Simnel's landing - which was Piel Island I think. You can see this from here across the bay which produces some of the finest sunsets and general views you will see. If you are not familiar with the area, Lancaster Castle has just opened to the public - and Hornby, which has a connection with Richard is just up the road, but is a private residence.

I wouldn't set too much store by Cockerham's being a Saxon place name. I seem to remember from The Origins of the British by Oppenheimer that there was virtually no Saxon component to the English DNA pool. It is odd then that most of the 'Celtic' peoples of Britain have a word that means Saxon for the English - including the Bretons. The Cocker element is Celtic as are all the names of rivers in the area.

But then very little of our traditional history is reliable as Ricardians will realise. The first recorded king of the 'West Saxons' from whom all kings of England claim descent had a Welsh name and gave his sons Welsh names...

The 'Normans' who invaded England were not all Normans - especially not the Plantagenets.

Kind regards
David




From: Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 10:49:10 PM

 

I didn't tell you, but my great grandmother was a Buckingham! I didn't know when I became interested in Richard III that I would be opening a can of worms that could even impinge upon my own family history.
I don't know when we will get to Cockerham, our son in laws parents live on the Duddon Estuary on the south lakes peninsula, North of Barrow in Furness, so probably next time we visit. They are really at the top end of Morecambe Bay.
I think I need to visit Devon too.

Very best regards,

Jess x

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: kathryng56@... <kathryng56@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Mon, Mar 10, 2014 4:25:54 PM

 

Thank you Jess,I was very pleased to find out about your family connections and that my friend's family originated from so close to where I presently live.I'm sure you will enjoy your visit x
Kathryn x

Carol,
The West Saxon king was Cerdic.

I am sure that the Counts of Anjou would have been surprised to think themselves as Norman. They spend quite some time fighting against the Normans over the County of Maine and against the Bretons in the west. It is true that through intermarriage there would be some ancestry that could be described as Norman.

But I think they might have recognised themselves as Franks and as descendants of Charlemagne or perhaps as Angevin (of Anjou). The "Normans" of the conquest included about one third Bretons and many from Flanders and other parts of France.

Kind regards
David
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Re : Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Tue, Mar 11, 2014 4:02:15 PM

 

David Durose wrote:

"But then very little of our traditional history is reliable as Ricardians will realise. The first recorded king of the 'West Saxons' from whom all kings of England claim descent had a Welsh name and gave his sons Welsh names...
"The 'Normans' who invaded England were not all Normans - especially not the Plantagenets."

Carol responds:

As Hilary said, very interesting! Which "West Saxon" king are your referring to and what were the Plantagenets (the line beginning with Henry II, whose father was the first Plantagenet) if not Normans? True, Geoffrey Plantagenet (Henry's father) was, if I recall correctly, Angevin, but Henry's mother, Matilda (aka Maude the Empress) was Norman, wasn't she, with a bit of Saxon mixed in?

By the way, David, when I cut and paste your messages, Yahoo gives me all sorts of squares that look like they come from Microsoft Excel.

Carol, whose spelling checker wants to change "Durose" to "neuroses"!

 



 

David wrote :

"I am sure that the Counts of Anjou would have been surprised to think themselves as Norman. They spend quite some time fighting against the Normans over the County of Maine and against the Bretons in the west. It is true that through intermarriage there would be some ancestry that could be described as Norman.

"But I think they might have recognised themselves as Franks and as descendants of Charlemagne or perhaps as Angevin (of Anjou). The "Normans" of the conquest included about one third Bretons and many from Flanders and other parts of France."

Carol responds:

Well, yes. I stated that Geoffrey Plantagenet was Angevin. But he was the ancestor of Henry II and later kings, not of William of Normandy, who was, of course, Norman. The kings from Henry II to Richard II are generally referred to as the Angevin kings, but Henry's mother was Norman. As for intermarriage, the European houses are so mixed up with each other that it's very hard to keep track. Henry VI's mother, for example, was French, and Edward II's was Spanish. But their ancestry was as mixed as that of the English kings. Isabella of Castille (Isabel the Catholic) was no more pure Spanish than "Phil the Greek" (Prince Philip, husband of Elizabeth II) was Greek. Well, maybe not that extreme, but we know she was descended, among many other lines, from John of Gaunt, whose mother was from Hainault, which would make her (theoretically) Belgian (????).

But I suppose it was the culture that mattered, not the impossibly confused "blood." Angevin or not, mixed or not, the kings of England spoke Norman (not Angevin) French (Henry II was brought up by his Norman mother) until the time of Richard II, who learned English as a second language (but had Chaucer as a court poet). By the time of Henry V, the English kings, even those with French wives or mothers, were to all intents and purposes English.

Carol

Hi Jess,
Good news about your connections.I'm hoping that Richard got the boys away to safety.Cockerham,Morecambe Bay,the Lakes and Devon are all beautiful places.
Kathryn x

Hi Carol,
Sorry to be replying quite late. I have just been reminded of your message by watching the first of the series 'the Plantagenets' on the BBC.

If you take a look at Henry II's ancestry, it is fairly free of Normans. At the same generation as William the Conqueror he is the only one. While Henry's mother is likely to have been brought up by her mother - we are looking at Scottish ancestry here and the Empress was actually brought up in Germany from quite a young age.

Henry's wife - the famous Eleanor, is someone about whose spoken language we actually have some information. She spoke Occitan, which was also the preferred dialect of her favourite son - Richard I.

The term Norman French is not generally recognised by linguists. The preferred name for the language used by the aristocracy of England at that time was Anglo-Norman, which differed from the dialect of French spoken in Normandy because of the varied origins of the groups in the Conquest. In fact, some linguists believe that spoken Anglo-Norman died out quite early and that it only survived as the language of legal documents.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards
David
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Re : Re: RE: Surname adoption in 15c Yorkshire?
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 4:24:40 PM

 

David wrote :

"I am sure that the Counts of Anjou would have been surprised to think themselves as Norman. They spend quite some time fighting against the Normans over the County of Maine and against the Bretons in the west. It is true that through intermarriage there would be some ancestry that could be described as Norman.

"But I think they might have recognised themselves as Franks and as descendants of Charlemagne or perhaps as Angevin (of Anjou). The "Normans" of the conquest included about one third Bretons and many from Flanders and other parts of France."

Carol responds:

Well, yes. I stated that Geoffrey Plantagenet was Angevin. But he was the ancestor of Henry II and later kings, not of William of Normandy, who was, of course, Norman. The kings from Henry II to Richard II are generally referred to as the Angevin kings, but Henry's mother was Norman. As for intermarriage, the European houses are so mixed up with each other that it's very hard to keep track. Henry VI's mother, for example, was French, and Edward II's was Spanish. But their ancestry was as mixed as that of the English kings. Isabella of Castille (Isabel the Catholic) was no more pure Spanish than "Phil the Greek" (Prince Philip, husband of Elizabeth II) was Greek. Well, maybe not that extreme, but we know she was descended, among many other lines, from John of Gaunt, whose mother was from Hainault, which would make her (theoretically) Belgian (????).

But I suppose it was the culture that mattered, not the impossibly confused "blood." Angevin or not, mixed or not, the kings of England spoke Norman (not Angevin) French (Henry II was brought up by his Norman mother) until the time of Richard II, who learned English as a second language (but had Chaucer as a court poet). By the time of Henry V, the English kings, even those with French wives or mothers, were to all intents and purposes English.

Carol




 



 

David Durose wrote :
"[snip] If you take a look at Henry II's ancestry, it is fairly free of Normans. At the same generation as William the Conqueror he is the only one. While Henry's mother is likely to have been brought up by her mother - we are looking at Scottish ancestry here and the Empress was actually brought up in Germany from quite a young age. Henry's wife - the famous Eleanor, is someone about whose spoken language we actually have some information. She spoke Occitan, which was also the preferred dialect of her favourite son - Richard I. [snip]"

Hi, David. I seem to have accidentally snipped more than I intended of your interesting post. It's been years since I read a book specifically devoted to the history of English, but you're right, of course, that the correct term is Anglo-Norman dialect, but we get in the habit of using the terms we (people in general) encounter most often rather than the linguistically or scientifically accurately terms. My books are probably out of date (Baugh and Cable's "A History of the English Language," third edition, was published in 1978). Can you recommend an equally readable and authoritative but more recent book on the subject? And a good biography of Henry II or Eleanor if you know one?

By the way, after Richard III had declared that all laws should be written in English, didn't Henry VII use French (the Continental variety, not the antiquated Anglo-Norman dialect) in some of his documents? I may be misremembering and don't have time to check.

Carol

Geoffrey was Henry II's father (who'd married Matilda) so the Angevin kings ended when John lost everything but Gascony. Thereafter, any claim to the French Crown came through Edward III's mother Isabella, who was the last surviving child of Philip the Fair (viz Les Rois Maudits). But women were barred under French Salic Law - so all very hypothetical. Particularly when Edward III himself repealed primogeniture in England at the request of John of Gaunt. What a load of hypocrites we were! H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 16:27, "justcarol67@..." <justcarol67@...> wrote:
David wrote :

"I am sure that the Counts of Anjou would have been surprised to think themselves as Norman. They spend quite some time fighting against the Normans over the County of Maine and against the Bretons in the west. It is true that through intermarriage there would be some ancestry that could be described as Norman.

"But I think they might have recognised themselves as Franks and as descendants of Charlemagne or perhaps as Angevin (of Anjou). The "Normans" of the conquest included about one third Bretons and many from Flanders and other parts of France."

Carol responds:

Well, yes. I stated that Geoffrey Plantagenet was Angevin. But he was the ancestor of Henry II and later kings, not of William of Normandy, who was, of course, Norman. The kings from Henry II to Richard II are generally referred to as the Angevin kings, but Henry's mother was Norman. As for intermarriage, the European houses are so mixed up with each other that it's very hard to keep track. Henry VI's mother, for example, was French, and Edward II's was Spanish. But their ancestry was as mixed as that of the English kings. Isabella of Castille (Isabel the Catholic) was no more pure Spanish than "Phil the Greek" (Prince Philip, husband of Elizabeth II) was Greek. Well, maybe not that extreme, but we know she was descended, among many other lines, from John of Gaunt, whose mother was from Hainault, which would make her (theoretically) Belgian (????).

But I suppose it was the culture that mattered, not the impossibly confused "blood." Angevin or not, mixed or not, the kings of England spoke Norman (not Angevin) French (Henry II was brought up by his Norman mother) until the time of Richard II, who learned English as a second language (but had Chaucer as a court poet). By the time of Henry V, the English kings, even those with French wives or mothers, were to all intents and purposes English.

Carol

Sorry meant Edward III re-instated primogenture - brain failing. H

On Thursday, 20 March 2014, 15:55, Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...> wrote:
Geoffrey was Henry II's father (who'd married Matilda) so the Angevin kings ended when John lost everything but Gascony. Thereafter, any claim to the French Crown came through Edward III's mother Isabella, who was the last surviving child of Philip the Fair (viz Les Rois Maudits). But women were barred under French Salic Law - so all very hypothetical. Particularly when Edward III himself repealed primogeniture in England at the request of John of Gaunt. What a load of hypocrites we were! H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 16:27, "justcarol67@..." <justcarol67@...> wrote:
David wrote :

"I am sure that the Counts of Anjou would have been surprised to think themselves as Norman. They spend quite some time fighting against the Normans over the County of Maine and against the Bretons in the west. It is true that through intermarriage there would be some ancestry that could be described as Norman.

"But I think they might have recognised themselves as Franks and as descendants of Charlemagne or perhaps as Angevin (of Anjou). The "Normans" of the conquest included about one third Bretons and many from Flanders and other parts of France."

Carol responds:

Well, yes. I stated that Geoffrey Plantagenet was Angevin. But he was the ancestor of Henry II and later kings, not of William of Normandy, who was, of course, Norman. The kings from Henry II to Richard II are generally referred to as the Angevin kings, but Henry's mother was Norman. As for intermarriage, the European houses are so mixed up with each other that it's very hard to keep track. Henry VI's mother, for example, was French, and Edward II's was Spanish. But their ancestry was as mixed as that of the English kings. Isabella of Castille (Isabel the Catholic) was no more pure Spanish than "Phil the Greek" (Prince Philip, husband of Elizabeth II) was Greek. Well, maybe not that extreme, but we know she was descended, among many other lines, from John of Gaunt, whose mother was from Hainault, which would make her (theoretically) Belgian (????).

But I suppose it was the culture that mattered, not the impossibly confused "blood." Angevin or not, mixed or not, the kings of England spoke Norman (not Angevin) French (Henry II was brought up by his Norman mother) until the time of Richard II, who learned English as a second language (but had Chaucer as a court poet). By the time of Henry V, the English kings, even those with French wives or mothers, were to all intents and purposes English.

Carol