'John Pope, alias Talbot'

I don't know if anyone remembers that at some point I was obsessed with connecting Thomas Beckington, Bishop of Bath and Wells to the pre-contract in one way or another... Well, in a different context I keep running into Beckington again (intriguing in itself) and to the executors of Beckington's will.
One of those three executors was: 'John Pope clerk, prebendary of St. Decuman in the cathedral of Wells and canon residentiary thereof, parson of Shyre, and executor of Thomas de Bekynton late bishop of Bath and Wells'. In other books he is called 'John Pope, alias Talbot' and his coat of arms was apparently the talbot hound.
What might this 'alias Talbot' mean? An illegitimate son of old Shrewsbury (or of another Talbot)? Something else?
All three executors of Beckington's will received a general pardon from Edward in 1468, by the way. John Pope was again pardoned in 1472.
Pansy

I can't help you on John Pope, but I knew St Decuman rang a bell (sorry!). Guess who also held that Prebendary and was inducted by Beckynton - one John Morton. (Would you like my notes from the Fasti on the Prebendaries that Beckynton/Stillington held Pansy - some new eyes on them might be useful)? H

On Wednesday, 12 March 2014, 10:36, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
I don't know if anyone remembers that at some point I was obsessed with connecting Thomas Beckington, Bishop of Bath and Wells to the pre-contract in one way or another... Well, in a different context I keep running into Beckington again (intriguing in itself) and to the executors of Beckington's will.
One of those three executors was: 'John Pope clerk, prebendary of St. Decuman in the cathedral of Wells and canon residentiary thereof, parson of Shyre, and executor of Thomas de Bekynton late bishop of Bath and Wells'. In other books he is called 'John Pope, alias Talbot' and his coat of arms was apparently the talbot hound.
What might this 'alias Talbot' mean? An illegitimate son of old Shrewsbury (or of another Talbot)? Something else?
All three executors of Beckington's will received a general pardon from Edward in 1468, by the way. John Pope was again pardoned in 1472.
Pansy

Pansy, I do not know anything about John Pope, alias Talbot', but have been gathering (if not yet going through in detail) information about Sir Humphrey Talbot, Marshal of Calais in the time of Edward IV, Richard and HT. In the course of this I came across http://www.talbotro.co.uk/trotlbtnBackNos.html. You may have trawled it already, of course. If not, there is a LOT to go through because it covers the Talbots in general, but maybe, somewhere in the midst of it all, someone else has come across your John Pope? Sandra =^..^= From: pansydobersby Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:35 AM To: Subject: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

I don't know if anyone remembers that at some point I was obsessed with connecting Thomas Beckington, Bishop of Bath and Wells to the pre-contract in one way or another... Well, in a different context I keep running into Beckington again (intriguing in itself) and to the executors of Beckington's will.
One of those three executors was: 'John Pope clerk, prebendary of St. Decuman in the cathedral of Wells and canon residentiary thereof, parson of Shyre, and executor of Thomas de Bekynton late bishop of Bath and Wells'. In other books he is called 'John Pope, alias Talbot' and his coat of arms was apparently the talbot hound. What might this 'alias Talbot' mean? An illegitimate son of old Shrewsbury (or of another Talbot)? Something else? All three executors of Beckington's will received a general pardon from Edward in 1468, by the way. John Pope was again pardoned in 1472. Pansy

I forgot to add that it was in the midst of these magazines that I found a reference to a Walter Talbot/Tawbott of Wantage, who might have been Humphrey's illegitimate son. So there are snippets to be found. =^..^= From: SandraMachin Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 11:10 AM To: Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

Pansy, I do not know anything about John Pope, alias Talbot', but have been gathering (if not yet going through in detail) information about Sir Humphrey Talbot, Marshal of Calais in the time of Edward IV, Richard and HT. In the course of this I came across http://www.talbotro.co.uk/trotlbtnBackNos.html. You may have trawled it already, of course. If not, there is a LOT to go through because it covers the Talbots in general, but maybe, somewhere in the midst of it all, someone else has come across your John Pope? Sandra =^..^= From: pansydobersby Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2014 10:35 AM To: Subject: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

I don't know if anyone remembers that at some point I was obsessed with connecting Thomas Beckington, Bishop of Bath and Wells to the pre-contract in one way or another... Well, in a different context I keep running into Beckington again (intriguing in itself) and to the executors of Beckington's will.
One of those three executors was: 'John Pope clerk, prebendary of St. Decuman in the cathedral of Wells and canon residentiary thereof, parson of Shyre, and executor of Thomas de Bekynton late bishop of Bath and Wells'. In other books he is called 'John Pope, alias Talbot' and his coat of arms was apparently the talbot hound. What might this 'alias Talbot' mean? An illegitimate son of old Shrewsbury (or of another Talbot)? Something else? All three executors of Beckington's will received a general pardon from Edward in 1468, by the way. John Pope was again pardoned in 1472. Pansy

Thanks, Hilary! Oh my, Morton follows me like a shadow - it seems to me that whenever I'm interested in some particular priest in some particular position, Morton has held that position at some point. Either he or Thomas Morton!
I'd love to look at the notes, Hilary! You have my email address :)
As for John Pope 'alias Talbot', I found a more detailed description of his coat of arms: 'a chevron between two roses in chief and a talbot in base'. I do know that illegitimate children sometimes adopted their fathers' badges as an element of their coat of arms, so I wonder if Shrewsbury's talbot hound really might imply that John Pope was Shrewsbury's illegitimate son... and thus Eleanor's half-brother. But why 'Pope'?
This John Pope seems to have died circa 1478, by the way.
Pansy

Oohh, thanks for that link, Sandra! What a great resource!
Pansy

I've at last (!!!) linked Stillington (or at least his daughter/sister) genealogically with the Twynyhos, the Talbots and the Catesbys - it all comes back to the Corbets and the Barres. We know now he had a legal relationship with them but I need that final breakthrough. It has to be through the Catherine Hampton/Percival marriage because of the mention somewhere of a Jenet Percival marriage to a Stillington - otherwise why is he deep in the SW (I know he held prebendaries there but he swapped them back to Yorkshire). The Percivals seem to have their roots deep in Somerset (though one was MP for Warks). Anyone come across anything? Help! Like you Pansy, I try to get away from my bishop but he keeps cropping up. H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 11:28, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
Thanks, Hilary! Oh my, Morton follows me like a shadow - it seems to me that whenever I'm interested in some particular priest in some particular position, Morton has held that position at some point. Either he or Thomas Morton!
I'd love to look at the notes, Hilary! You have my email address :)
As for John Pope 'alias Talbot', I found a more detailed description of his coat of arms: 'a chevron between two roses in chief and a talbot in base'. I do know that illegitimate children sometimes adopted their fathers' badges as an element of their coat of arms, so I wonder if Shrewsbury's talbot hound really might imply that John Pope was Shrewsbury's illegitimate son... and thus Eleanor's half-brother. But why 'Pope'?
This John Pope seems to have died circa 1478, by the way.
Pansy

That's odd, Hilary - I came across Percevals and Hamptons in Somerset yesterday, as I was looking into my John Pope!! I'll have to check where I saw it, and I'll email you the information.
I also spotted your Richard Chocke... and Hungerfords. And Cheddars. And John Stacy.
My head hurts.
Pansy

I know. John Stacy as well?? John Hampton married Juliana Stillington, and when he died Chokke became the children's guardian and married them to his own kids, and to the kids of Sir John Newton who was married to Isabel Cheddar, who was the sister of Joan Cheddar, Eleanor Talbot's sister in law. Take an aspirin!! :) H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:26, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
That's odd, Hilary - I came across Percevals and Hamptons in Somerset yesterday, as I was looking into my John Pope!! I'll have to check where I saw it, and I'll email you the information.
I also spotted your Richard Chocke... and Hungerfords. And Cheddars. And John Stacy.
My head hurts.
Pansy

Puzzled,after watching BBC news , why they have put a memorial stone in Westminster Abbey (and a service this morning attended by the good and famous) for Sir David Frost (why, why, why?) but there is nothing for King Richard....so far...I'm not holding my breath...Eileen

I don't really see any connection, to be honest. It's like pre-supposing there has to be a link between Henry V and C S Lewis. The Abbey still installs small memorial plaques, but the process is very tightly controlled and many more applications are made than are accepted.

Frost was culturally significant, and the Abbey has tried to reflect that for many, many years. I can't recall whether Ronnie Barker is honoured, but his memorial service was held there - and the Abbey authorities showed a delightful bit of humour by stating in the Order of Service that the processional cross would be accompanied by "four candles".

Jonathan


From: "cherryripe.eileenb@..." <cherryripe.eileenb@...>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:32
Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

Puzzled,after watching BBC news , why they have put a memorial stone in Westminster Abbey (and a service this morning attended by the good and famous) for Sir David Frost (why, why, why?) but there is nothing for King Richard....so far...I'm not holding my breath...Eileen

Apparently monarchs can only have one memorial stone, and currently, the one for Richard is in Leicester Cathedral. I am not sure when this 'rule' came in, but it seems to apply.
From: "cherryripe.eileenb@..." <cherryripe.eileenb@...>

Puzzled,after watching BBC news , why they have put a memorial stone in Westminster Abbey (and a service this morning attended by the good and famous) for Sir David Frost (why, why, why?) but there is nothing for King Richard....so far...I'm not holding my breath...Eileen

Agreed, Eileen. I see no reason why Sir David Frost, excellent as he was, warrants a Westminster Abbey memorial. Sandra =^..^= From: cherryripe.eileenb@... Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 1:32 PM To: Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

Puzzled,after watching BBC news , why they have put a memorial stone in Westminster Abbey (and a service this morning attended by the good and famous) for Sir David Frost (why, why, why?) but there is nothing for King Richard....so far...I'm not holding my breath...Eileen

Sandra and Eileen,
Maybe Frost deserves a memorial in the Washington Cathedral? I'm old enough to remember the original Frost/Nixon interviews. The man brought down one of the biggest scoundrels in our history.
Judy Loyaulte me lie

On Thursday, March 13, 2014 8:49 AM, SandraMachin <sandramachin@...> wrote:
Agreed, Eileen. I see no reason why Sir David Frost, excellent as he was, warrants a Westminster Abbey memorial. Sandra =^..^= From: cherryripe.eileenb@... Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2014 1:32 PM To: Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot' Puzzled,after watching BBC news , why they have put a memorial stone in Westminster Abbey (and a service this morning attended by the good and famous) for Sir David Frost (why, why, why?) but there is nothing for King Richard....so far...I'm not holding my breath...Eileen

I haven't found a link with Stillington in my researches into my family history, but I have found two Abbott's of Furness Abbey in the 12-13 hundreds.
We have decided not to keep tormenting my son on law for bring from Barrow, (he Isn't, but from 10 miles away), as it is all getting too close to home.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 1:31:18 PM

 

I know. John Stacy as well?? John Hampton married Juliana Stillington, and when he died Chokke became the children's guardian and married them to his own kids, and to the kids of Sir John Newton who was married to Isabel Cheddar, who was the sister of Joan Cheddar, Eleanor Talbot's sister in law.  Take an aspirin!!  :) H   

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:26, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
  That's odd, Hilary - I came across Percevals and Hamptons in Somerset yesterday, as I was looking into my John Pope!! I'll have to check where I saw it, and I'll email you the information.
I also spotted your Richard Chocke... and Hungerfords. And Cheddars. And John Stacy.
My head hurts.
Pansy

That should read "being from Barrow."

I hate typing on the Kindle, but Yahoo is a nonsense on my laptop.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 3:46:24 PM

 

I haven't found a link with Stillington in my researches into my family history, but I have found two Abbott's of Furness Abbey in the 12-13 hundreds.
We have decided not to keep tormenting my son on law for bring from Barrow, (he Isn't, but from 10 miles away), as it is all getting too close to home.

Jess

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 1:31:18 PM

 

I know. John Stacy as well?? John Hampton married Juliana Stillington, and when he died Chokke became the children's guardian and married them to his own kids, and to the kids of Sir John Newton who was married to Isabel Cheddar, who was the sister of Joan Cheddar, Eleanor Talbot's sister in law.  Take an aspirin!!  :) H   

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:26, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
  That's odd, Hilary - I came across Percevals and Hamptons in Somerset yesterday, as I was looking into my John Pope!! I'll have to check where I saw it, and I'll email you the information.
I also spotted your Richard Chocke... and Hungerfords. And Cheddars. And John Stacy.
My head hurts.
Pansy

Pansy - here they are in the Fasti for St Decumens - what a bunch! H M. Robert Stillington D.C.L. 1447-1451. Coll. 30 June 1447 (Reg. Bekynton 1 79). Adm. 24 July (ibid.). Exch. preb. withJohn Bradston for preb. of Fenton, York, 6 March 1451 (ibid. p. 161).M. John Bradston B.Cn.L. 1451-1457. By exch. March 1451. Adm. 30 March (Reg. Bekynton 1 161). Res. before 14 June1457 (ibid. p. 286).M. John Pope D.Th. 1457-1476. Coll. 14 June 1457 (Reg. Bekynton 1 286). D. 30 Jan./8 Feb. 1476 (PCC 22 Wattys).M. John Morton D.C.L. 1476-1478. Coll. 9 Feb. 1476 (Reg. Stillington p. 107). Bp. of Ely 1478.M. Thomas Langton D.Th., D.Cn.L. 1479-1483. Coll. 2 Jan. 1479 (Reg. Stillington p. 112). Bp. of St Davids 1483.From: 'Prebendaries: St Decumans', Fasti Ecclesiae Anglicanae 1300-1541: volume 8: Bath and Wells diocese (1964), pp. 61-62. URL: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=32189 Date accessed: 13 March 2014.

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 15:46, Jessie Skinner <janjovian@...> wrote:
I haven't found a link with Stillington in my researches into my family history, but I have found two Abbott's of Furness Abbey in the 12-13 hundreds.
We have decided not to keep tormenting my son on law for bring from Barrow, (he Isn't, but from 10 miles away), as it is all getting too close to home.
Jess Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From: Hilary Jones <hjnatdat@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'
Sent: Thu, Mar 13, 2014 1:31:18 PM

I know. John Stacy as well?? John Hampton married Juliana Stillington, and when he died Chokke became the children's guardian and married them to his own kids, and to the kids of Sir John Newton who was married to Isabel Cheddar, who was the sister of Joan Cheddar, Eleanor Talbot's sister in law. Take an aspirin!! :) H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 13:26, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
That's odd, Hilary - I came across Percevals and Hamptons in Somerset yesterday, as I was looking into my John Pope!! I'll have to check where I saw it, and I'll email you the information.
I also spotted your Richard Chocke... and Hungerfords. And Cheddars. And John Stacy.
My head hurts.
Pansy

Hilary, now it's REALLY necessary to take an aspirin... because these texts I came across mention Isabel Cheddar, John Newton and John Stacy at the same time, in the context of the manor of Cheddar. Whether that's *the* John Stacy I don't know, but if it is...??
Pansy

Wow. Haven't looked at Stacy but JAH has him coming from Oxford (town or uni he doesn't say). We know places can mean very little at this time though. Have looked at the Cheddars a fair bit though. Will go back and look again. Incidentally I noticed that Sir John Newton's son married a St John (as well as Stillington's grandaughter). In my inoocent days looking for Stillington that meant nothing but now of course I know to whom the St Johns are related, H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 19:52, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
Hilary, now it's REALLY necessary to take an aspirin... because these texts I came across mention Isabel Cheddar, John Newton and John Stacy at the same time, in the context of the manor of Cheddar. Whether that's *the* John Stacy I don't know, but if it is...??
Pansy

Hilary, I am very interested in the Thomas Poynings, 5th Lord St. John of Basing, (born circa 1351, died 1429) who inherited (through his mother) the entire estates and so on of his line of the St. Johns. In 1398/99 he married Philippa Mortimer, the widowed Countess of Arundel. There is some doubt that he had any right to use the title he did. If you (or anyone?) should come across references to him, especially in connection with Philippa, I would be grateful to hear. And do you happen to know what (if any) the connection was between this gentleman and Sir John St. John (after 1360-1424) of Paulersbury, Northants, and Fonmon, Glam? Sir John St. John killed Philippa's first husband, John Hastings, 3rd Earl of Pembroke, in a jousting practice at Woodstock, the tournament being held before the king, Richard II. I thought I had pinned the connection, but came unstuck enough to be no longer sure. Sandra =^..^= From: Hilary Jones Sent: Friday, March 14, 2014 9:36 AM To: Subject: Re: 'John Pope, alias Talbot'

Wow. Haven't looked at Stacy but JAH has him coming from Oxford (town or uni he doesn't say). We know places can mean very little at this time though. Have looked at the Cheddars a fair bit though. Will go back and look again. Incidentally I noticed that Sir John Newton's son married a St John (as well as Stillington's grandaughter). In my inoocent days looking for Stillington that meant nothing but now of course I know to whom the St Johns are related, H

On Thursday, 13 March 2014, 19:52, pansydobersby <[email protected]> wrote:
Hilary, now it's REALLY necessary to take an aspirin... because these texts I came across mention Isabel Cheddar, John Newton and John Stacy at the same time, in the context of the manor of Cheddar. Whether that's *the* John Stacy I don't know, but if it is...?? Pansy