Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: More genealogical developments

----- Original Message -----
From: marie
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: More genealogical developments


--- In , "stephenmlark"
<smlark@t...> wrote:
> Sir William Pole (1569-1635) is in Burke's as his family's
baronetcy
> is still extant. Although he is on Castelli, Lundy etc, they do not
> mention his ancestors. Burke's does and he cannot be a grandson of
> either Sir Geoffrey or Sir Arthur.
> His grandfather is listed as being a Pole from Cheshire - where
were
> Sir Richard and Geoffrey, his father, from?

Sorry, you've lost me.
1) Who exactly does Burke's say he was son/descendant of?
2) Which Sir Richard, and Geoffrey whose father?
I may be able to fiond out on Cheshire Folks.

Marie

POLE, of course. Sir Richard was Lady Margaret's husband and Geoffrey was his father. If Sir William surely cannot now be descended from Sir Richard, he could be descended from his brother or close cousin which would make this line (includes the current Pole baronetcy and Somers Barony) of interest because we could say "This is the type of family that Princesses marry into".
So, if you can join the two Pole lines together during C15 or earlier, by finding out where Geoffrey came from (hopefully Cheshire), it would solve the big question. Powys-Lybbe (descended from Lady Margaret through Winifred's second marriage to Sir Thomas Barrington) points out that Geoffrey's ancestors are never given.
Ruvigny takes a long time to arrive at my library but then I could tackle the mystery of Lt.Gen. Edward Pole.
Stephen




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--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<smlark@t...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: marie
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 PM
> Subject: Re: More genealogical
developments
>
>
> --- In , "stephenmlark"
> <smlark@t...> wrote:
> > Sir William Pole (1569-1635) is in Burke's as his family's
> baronetcy
> > is still extant. Although he is on Castelli, Lundy etc, they do
not
> > mention his ancestors. Burke's does and he cannot be a grandson
of
> > either Sir Geoffrey or Sir Arthur.
> > His grandfather is listed as being a Pole from Cheshire - where
> were
> > Sir Richard and Geoffrey, his father, from?
>
> Sorry, you've lost me.
> 1) Who exactly does Burke's say he was son/descendant of?
> 2) Which Sir Richard, and Geoffrey whose father?
> I may be able to fiond out on Cheshire Folks.
>
> Marie
>
> POLE, of course. Sir Richard was Lady Margaret's husband and
Geoffrey was his father. If Sir William surely cannot now be
descended from Sir Richard,

I know Pole! From what you say below, it seems you meant the Sir
Richard Pole KG who was married to Margaret of clarence, countess of
Salisbury, and his father Sir Geoffrey (d.1491). You still haven't
told me why Sir William cannot be descended from Sir Richard. You say
Burke's gives his ancestry, now you seem to be saying its all to be
guessed, so I'm still not sure what the base data are. I'm not trying
to be funny, but I wanted to help and it's really hard without a
clear statement of known names, dates and relationships.
I don't know Sir Geoffrey's ancestry, but as you probably know his
wife (Sir Richard's mother) was Edith St John, a half-sister of
Margaret Beaufort, so Sir Richard Pole was a first cousin of Henry
VII.
You'll have to wait till I get to the library for more information,
but I have volume 6 of the "Cheshire in the Later Middle Ages"
series, and it does mention a Cheshire family by the name of Pole or
Poole. There was a Sir John de Poole fl.c.1400-1407, and a Sir
William Pole who in 1535 "surrendered his right to a pension at Vale
Royal to a yeoman of the Guard!"
I can't find a place called Poole/ Pole on my Cheshire A-Z, but there
is an Overpoole in the Ellesmere Port area, with a Poole Hall Lane.
I will probably be able to view copies of the other volumes of
Cheshire in the Later Middle Ages in a few days (or some of them, at
any rate), also the Cheshire volumes of the Victoria County
Histories, if you can't get to a library that has them.
Marie

PS. You could always contact the Chester Records Office to see if
they can provide you with any more info. I have their phone no.

----- Original Message -----
From: marie
To:
Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: More genealogical developments


--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<smlark@t...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: marie
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 11:31 PM
> Subject: Re: More genealogical
developments
>
>
> --- In , "stephenmlark"
> <smlark@t...> wrote:
> > Sir William Pole (1569-1635) is in Burke's as his family's
> baronetcy
> > is still extant. Although he is on Castelli, Lundy etc, they do
not
> > mention his ancestors. Burke's does and he cannot be a grandson
of
> > either Sir Geoffrey or Sir Arthur.
> > His grandfather is listed as being a Pole from Cheshire - where
> were
> > Sir Richard and Geoffrey, his father, from?
>
> Sorry, you've lost me.
> 1) Who exactly does Burke's say he was son/descendant of?
> 2) Which Sir Richard, and Geoffrey whose father?
> I may be able to fiond out on Cheshire Folks.
>
> Marie
>
> POLE, of course. Sir Richard was Lady Margaret's husband and
Geoffrey was his father. If Sir William surely cannot now be
descended from Sir Richard,

I know Pole! From what you say below, it seems you meant the Sir
Richard Pole KG who was married to Margaret of clarence, countess of
Salisbury, and his father Sir Geoffrey (d.1491). You still haven't
told me why Sir William cannot be descended from Sir Richard. You say
Burke's gives his ancestry, now you seem to be saying its all to be
guessed, so I'm still not sure what the base data are. I'm not trying
to be funny, but I wanted to help and it's really hard without a
clear statement of known names, dates and relationships.
I don't know Sir Geoffrey's ancestry, but as you probably know his
wife (Sir Richard's mother) was Edith St John, a half-sister of
Margaret Beaufort, so Sir Richard Pole was a first cousin of Henry
VII.
You'll have to wait till I get to the library for more information,
but I have volume 6 of the "Cheshire in the Later Middle Ages"
series, and it does mention a Cheshire family by the name of Pole or
Poole. There was a Sir John de Poole fl.c.1400-1407, and a Sir
William Pole who in 1535 "surrendered his right to a pension at Vale
Royal to a yeoman of the Guard!"
I can't find a place called Poole/ Pole on my Cheshire A-Z, but there
is an Overpoole in the Ellesmere Port area, with a Poole Hall Lane.
I will probably be able to view copies of the other volumes of
Cheshire in the Later Middle Ages in a few days (or some of them, at
any rate), also the Cheshire volumes of the Victoria County
Histories, if you can't get to a library that has them.
Marie

PS. You could always contact the Chester Records Office to see if
they can provide you with any more info. I have their phone no.

Yes, sorry if I was being a little obvious and cryptic. Sir William's father and grandfather are named in Burke's. Incidentally, Sir Richard's father was not a knight, he has been confused with his own grandson (see Tim Powys-Lybbe's site www.south-frm.demon.co.uk), his forename is possibly spelt Geffrey and their surname POOLE which fits the Cheshire theory well.
Look forward to your results on that count.
Stephen



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