Carpenter's Book.
Carpenter's Book.
Has anybody out there read this & formed an opinion about it?
I ask as I am thinking of buying it & have read the 4 reviews but they haven't spurred me on.
The Wars of the Roses: Politics and the Constitution in England, C.1437-1509 (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks)[Paperback]Christine Carpenter
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Jan here.
Has anybody out there read this & formed an opinion about
it?
I ask as I am thinking of buying it & have read the 4
reviews but they haven't spurred me on.
The Wars of the Roses: Politics and the Constitution in
England, C.1437-1509 (Cambridge Medieval
Textbooks)[Paperback]Christine Carpenter
Re: Carpenter's Book.
On 28 Apr 2014, at 11:44, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
No, I haven't read it, Jan, but I've followed your link and read the reviews. Clearly you would have to be a very big fan of Big Ed. That's not a bad thing, of course, but the reviews in general are a bit deadening. It's an expensive way of finding out the book is as deadening as the reviews. So I'd be hesitating too. You know what they say, if in doubt, don't. But they' always have a lot to say for themselves, eh? BTW, I agree with the Amazon.com reviewer who said Henry VII wasn't the first modern king, but the last medieval one. It annoys me when Henry is credited with opening England's door to the glories of the Renaissance, etc. etc. He didn't do any such thing, he was too busy hanging on to what he'd stolen, while being an icy brute in the process. Given the chance, Richard definitely would have been our first modern king. He'd already knocked on the Renaissance door during his brief reign. He was simply denied the time to step over the threshold and prove how much he was a man ahead of his time. But I digress. Sorry not to be of more help in your purchasing dilemma, Jan. Sandra =^..^= From: Jan Mulrenan Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 11:18 AM To: Subject: Carpenter's Book.
Jan here.
Has anybody out there read this & formed an opinion about it?
I ask as I am thinking of buying it & have read the 4 reviews but they haven't spurred me on.
The Wars of the Roses: Politics and the Constitution in England, C.1437-1509 (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks)[Paperback]Christine Carpenter
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Paul
On 28/04/2014 11:44, SandraMachin wrote:
No, I haven’t read it, Jan, but I’ve followed your link and read the reviews. Clearly you would have to be a very big fan of Big Ed. That’s not a bad thing, of course, but the reviews in general are a bit deadening. It’s an expensive way of finding out the book is as deadening as the reviews. So I’d be hesitating too. You know what they say, if in doubt, don’t. But ‘they’ always have a lot to say for themselves, eh? BTW, I agree with the Amazon.com reviewer who said Henry VII wasn’t the first modern king, but the last medieval one. It annoys me when Henry is credited with opening England’s door to the glories of the Renaissance, etc. etc. He didn’t do any such thing, he was too busy hanging on to what he’d stolen, while being an icy brute in the process. Given the chance, Richard definitely would have been our first modern king. He’d already knocked on the Renaissance door during his brief reign. He was simply denied the time to step over the threshold and prove how much he was a man ahead of his time. But I digress. Sorry not to be of more help in your purchasing dilemma, Jan. Sandra =^..^= From: Jan Mulrenan Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 11:18 AM To: Subject: Carpenter's Book.
Jan here.
Has anybody out there read this & formed an opinion about it?
I ask as I am thinking of buying it & have read the 4 reviews but they haven't spurred me on.
The Wars of the Roses: Politics and the Constitution in England, C.1437-1509 (Cambridge Medieval Textbooks)[Paperback] Christine Carpenter
--
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Richard would have financed the trip to the west of
both Columbus and Cabot, both of whom Tudor turned down.
Paul
On
28/04/2014 11:44, SandraMachin wrote:
No, I haven't read it, Jan, but I've followed your link and read the
reviews. Clearly you would have to be a very big fan of Big Ed. That's not a
bad thing, of course, but the reviews in general are a bit deadening. It's an
expensive way of finding out the book is as deadening as the reviews. So I'd
be hesitating too. You know what they say, if in doubt, don't. But they'
always have a lot to say for themselves, eh?
BTW, I agree with the Amazon.com reviewer who said Henry VII wasn't the
first modern king, but the last medieval one. It annoys me when Henry is
credited with opening England's door to the glories of the Renaissance, etc.
etc. He didn't do any such thing, he was too busy hanging on to what he'd
stolen, while being an icy brute in the process. Given the chance, Richard
definitely would have been our first modern king. He'd already knocked on the
Renaissance door during his brief reign. He was simply denied the time to step
over the threshold and prove how much he was a man ahead of his time.
But I digress. Sorry not to be of more help in your purchasing dilemma,
Jan.
Sandra
=^..^=
From: Jan Mulrenan
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 11:18 AM
To:
Subject: Carpenter's
Book.
Jan here.
Has anybody out there read this & formed an opinion about
it?
I ask as I am thinking of buying it & have read the 4
reviews but they haven't spurred me on.
The Wars of the Roses: Politics
and the Constitution in England, C.1437-1509 (Cambridge Medieval
Textbooks)[Paperback]Christine Carpenter
--
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Carpenter's Book.
"Richard would have financed the trip to the west of both Columbus and Cabot, both of whom Tudor turned down."
Carol responds:
To be fair, Henry did give Cabot letters patent authorizing his 1497 expedition and a small reward (ten pounds) after his return. He also authorized a second expedition (lost at sea) and an annual pension of twenty pounds (presumably never paid because Cabot was presumed drowned).
But I agree completely that Richard would have enthusiastically and generously supported the exploration of the New World--not to mention that his alliance with Portugal could have proven fruitful with regard to exploration in general. His (theoretical) support of Columbus might have prevented or altered the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the newly discovered lands between Portugal and Spain. (Just how Cabot and the later explorers and settlers sent from or by England got around that treaty, I'm not sure. Evidently, it was widely ignored with regard to North America.)
Anyway, the settlement of North America would have been very different under a series of Yorkist kings than under the Tudors and their successors! As would the history of England. Imagine no Anglican Church, no execution of Protestants under Mary or persecution of Catholics under other Tudors, no English Civil War, no execution of Charles I (no Stuarts claiming the divine right of kings!), no takeover by Parliament under Cromwell.
No wonder people claim (falsely) that Richard was the last medieval king. His death changed everything. (The cultural developments, including plays, poetry, music, and--ugh--"Tudor" fashion would still have occurred; I'm talking about religion and politics. Henry VII accomplished only one thing, the neutralization of the nobility. The rest was the fault of his Tudor and Stuart successors.)
Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Jonathan
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Carpenter's Book.
Sent: Tue, Apr 29, 2014 5:49:16 PM
Paul wrote :
"Richard would have financed the trip to the west of both Columbus and Cabot, both of whom Tudor turned down."
Carol responds:
To be fair, Henry did give Cabot letters patent authorizing his 1497 expedition and a small reward (ten pounds) after his return. He also authorized a second expedition (lost at sea) and an annual pension of twenty pounds (presumably never paid because Cabot was presumed drowned).
But I agree completely that Richard would have enthusiastically and generously supported the exploration of the New World--not to mention that his alliance with Portugal could have proven fruitful with regard to exploration in general. His (theoretical) support of Columbus might have prevented or altered the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the newly discovered lands between Portugal and Spain. (Just how Cabot and the later explorers and settlers sent from or by England got around that treaty, I'm not sure. Evidently, it was widely ignored with regard to North America.)
Anyway, the settlement of North America would have been very different under a series of Yorkist kings than under the Tudors and their successors! As would the history of England. Imagine no Anglican Church, no execution of Protestants under Mary or persecution of Catholics under other Tudors, no English Civil War, no execution of Charles I (no Stuarts claiming the divine right of kings!), no takeover by Parliament under Cromwell.
No wonder people claim (falsely) that Richard was the last medieval king. His death changed everything. (The cultural developments, including plays, poetry, music, and--ugh--"Tudor" fashion would still have occurred; I'm talking about religion and politics. Henry VII accomplished only one thing, the neutralization of the nobility. The rest was the fault of his Tudor and Stuart successors.)
Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Carol
Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
I agree with your comments about John Cabot. However, I am not fond of speculative alternative histories of any kind. Someone earlier suggested that Richard would have gone on crusade. These things are best left to fiction.
The explorers of the new world and crusaders seem to have been among the opposition.
Jean Coetanlem - known as the king of the sea - waged war against Richard in the English Channel and around Bristol. His charts were used for the Bosworth landings in Wales. He replaced Columbus as Admiral of Portugal and it is often suggested that Columbus learned from him.
Jean's nephew Nicholas was closely associated with Henry and provided him with ships to move troops in his Breton campaigns. He risked his considerable fortune fighting against the Turks at Mytilene.
The would-be Byzantine emperor, known as George the Greek (also called Colon the Younger) was actually the leader of the landing force before Bosworth, for which several of his own ships, such as the Figue were used. It seems that Columbus claimed to be related to him.
Kind regards
David
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Carpenter's Book.
Sent: Tue, Apr 29, 2014 5:49:16 PM
Paul wrote :
"Richard would have financed the trip to the west of both Columbus and Cabot, both of whom Tudor turned down."
Carol responds:
To be fair, Henry did give Cabot letters patent authorizing his 1497 expedition and a small reward (ten pounds) after his return. He also authorized a second expedition (lost at sea) and an annual pension of twenty pounds (presumably never paid because Cabot was presumed drowned).
But I agree completely that Richard would have enthusiastically and generously supported the exploration of the New World--not to mention that his alliance with Portugal could have proven fruitful with regard to exploration in general. His (theoretical) support of Columbus might have prevented or altered the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the newly discovered lands between Portugal and Spain. (Just how Cabot and the later explorers and settlers sent from or by England got around that treaty, I'm not sure. Evidently, it was widely ignored with regard to North America.)
Anyway, the settlement of North America would have been very different under a series of Yorkist kings than under the Tudors and their successors! As would the history of England. Imagine no Anglican Church, no execution of Protestants under Mary or persecution of Catholics under other Tudors, no English Civil War, no execution of Charles I (no Stuarts claiming the divine right of kings!), no takeover by Parliament under Cromwell.
No wonder people claim (falsely) that Richard was the last medieval king. His death changed everything. (The cultural developments, including plays, poetry, music, and--ugh--"Tudor" fashion would still have occurred; I'm talking about religion and politics. Henry VII accomplished only one thing, the neutralization of the nobility. The rest was the fault of his Tudor and Stuart successors.)
Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
Hi Carol,
I agree with your comments about John Cabot. However, I am not fond of speculative alternative histories of any kind. Someone earlier suggested that Richard would have gone on crusade. These things are best left to fiction.
The explorers of the new world and crusaders seem to have been among the opposition.
Jean Coetanlem - known as the king of the sea - waged war against Richard in the English Channel and around Bristol. His charts were used for the Bosworth landings in Wales. He replaced Columbus as Admiral of Portugal and it is often suggested that Columbus learned from him.
Jean's nephew Nicholas was closely associated with Henry and provided him with ships to move troops in his Breton campaigns. He risked his considerable fortune fighting against the Turks at Mytilene.
The would-be Byzantine emperor, known as George the Greek (also called Colon the Younger) was actually the leader of the landing force before Bosworth, for which several of his own ships, such as the Figue were used. It seems that Columbus claimed to be related to him.
Kind regards
David
From: justcarol67@... <justcarol67@...>;
To: <>;
Subject: Re: Carpenter's Book.
Sent: Tue, Apr 29, 2014 5:49:16 PM
Paul wrote :
"Richard would have financed the trip to the west of both Columbus and Cabot, both of whom Tudor turned down."
Carol responds:
To be fair, Henry did give Cabot letters patent authorizing his 1497 expedition and a small reward (ten pounds) after his return. He also authorized a second expedition (lost at sea) and an annual pension of twenty pounds (presumably never paid because Cabot was presumed drowned).
But I agree completely that Richard would have enthusiastically and generously supported the exploration of the New World--not to mention that his alliance with Portugal could have proven fruitful with regard to exploration in general. His (theoretical) support of Columbus might have prevented or altered the Treaty of Tordesillas, which divided the newly discovered lands between Portugal and Spain. (Just how Cabot and the later explorers and settlers sent from or by England got around that treaty, I'm not sure. Evidently, it was widely ignored with regard to North America.)
Anyway, the settlement of North America would have been very different under a series of Yorkist kings than under the Tudors and their successors! As would the history of England. Imagine no Anglican Church, no execution of Protestants under Mary or persecution of Catholics under other Tudors, no English Civil War, no execution of Charles I (no Stuarts claiming the divine right of kings!), no takeover by Parliament under Cromwell.
No wonder people claim (falsely) that Richard was the last medieval king. His death changed everything. (The cultural developments, including plays, poetry, music, and--ugh--"Tudor" fashion would still have occurred; I'm talking about religion and politics. Henry VII accomplished only one thing, the neutralization of the nobility. The rest was the fault of his Tudor and Stuart successors.)
Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Also the development of a Catholic monarchy into one believing in the
divine right of kings may well still have happened, as it did in France.
And look what happened there! I think a strong monarchy would have
inevitable led to a revolution in England at some stage.
However, Richard had showed himself more inclined to a government that
cared about all rather than some, so perhaps a healthy parliamentary
government could have happened under Yorkist kings. But who knows.
Richard's loss was a tragedy for England, and in the long run the whole
of the United Kingdom and Ireland.
Paul
--
Richard Liveth Yet!
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
Mary
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Something about the format of your post makes it impossible to cut and paste, so I'm forced to top post. I'm sorry to have misled you into believing that I'm implicitly condemning the Anglican Church. As a lapsed Episcopalian, I have the greatest affection and respect for its parent church and its beautiful liturgy. However, the executions and persecutions of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa, not to mention the excesses of the Protestants, *might* not have happened had England come to Protestantism in some other way than by Henry VIII's decreeing himself the head of the English church. I'm just saying that England would almost certainly have been better off without the Tudors.
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
"Hi Carol,
I agree with your comments about John Cabot. However, I am not fond of speculative alternative histories of any kind. Someone earlier suggested that Richard would have gone on crusade. These things are best left to fiction."
Carol responds:
You are, of course, entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. I see nothing wrong with a little speculation--for fun--about what might have been. Richard's death did make a difference, not so much in Henry VII's reign as in those of his successors. No Henry VIII, no "Bloody Mary," no Stuarts claiming the Divine Right of Kings. But the Tudors deserve no credit for the Renaissance in England or for the Reformation, both of which would have happened anyway, but perhaps in a less bloody fashion. I do, however, have a great fondness for the Anglican Church, as stated in another post, but something like it might have developed had Richard's successors and an enlightened clergy decided that it was time to have church services in English.
So, regardless of your lack of fondness for speculative alternative histories, I will continue to speculate. I will also continue to try to find the truth about what really happened and why--and most important, the truth about who Richard really was as far as that can be known.
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
I've just started reading Arthurson's book on Warbeck from cover to cover and it is extremely well-researched, though more a textbook than a coffee table read. [snip] He is also very good on his analysis of [snip] Margaret of Burgundy. I think he has done his research in the Burgundian archives! One of the things he quotes is her letter to Isabella on first meeting Warbeck. It's pretty clear from it that, until she met him, she believed the boys dead. [snip]"
Carol:
First, my apologies for snipping and condensing your post. I put the "snips" in square brackets in hopes that they'll show up. Yahoo seems to eat them when they're placed in pointy brackets.
Can you copy Margaret's letter to Isabella for us? That seems to blow a lot of my theories out of the water. I wonder what she thought had become of her nephews? Surely, she didn't believe that Richard had ordered them killed. She certainly seems to have supported him--and she was unquestionably an enemy to Tudor.
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
On May 1, 2014, at 11:45 AM, "justcarol67@..." <justcarol67@...> wrote:
Carol responds:
Something about the format of your post makes it impossible to cut and paste, so I'm forced to top post. I'm sorry to have misled you into believing that I'm implicitly condemning the Anglican Church. As a lapsed Episcopalian, I have the greatest affection
and respect for its parent church and its beautiful liturgy. However, the executions and persecutions of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa, not to mention the excesses of the Protestants, *might* not have happened had England come to Protestantism in
some other way than by Henry VIII's decreeing himself the head of the English church. I'm just saying that England would almost certainly have been better off without the Tudors.
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Paul quoted me.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the
consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last
desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was
feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that
people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly
did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with
you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was
already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic
to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he
outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get
between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as
brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or
doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of
Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
On May 1, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
I can't bear to think about the what-ifs of that charge. Whatever Richard's reasons, it went wrong and it cost him his life. Damn Henry Call me Lucky Tudor, his unChristian Mummy, his poxy uncle Jasper, the sodding Stanleys, and any other lily-livered ratbag who did the dirty on Richard. He was too good for the lot of them. There, now I feel better. Sandra =^..^= From: justcarol67@... Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:21 PM To: Subject: Re: Re : Re: Carpenter's Book.
Paul quoted me.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Not to mention the actions of his brothers, the death of Anne and his son,
and the many circles of hell which surrounded the last of the Plantagenets. The
more I read, the more astounded I am at the machinations of so many, and for so
long.
On May 1, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...>
wrote:
I can't bear to think about the what-ifs of that charge. Whatever
Richard's reasons, it went wrong and it cost him his life. Damn Henry Call me
Lucky Tudor, his unChristian Mummy, his poxy uncle Jasper, the sodding
Stanleys, and any other lily-livered ratbag who did the dirty on Richard. He
was too good for the lot of them. There, now I feel better.
Sandra
=^..^=
From: justcarol67@...
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Carpenter's
Book.
Paul quoted me.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
On May 1, 2014, at 12:50 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
If only I was 500 years younger, I'd sort them all out! But he must have been one heck of a strong man to endure all that adversity and still be a fine king. Sometimes I get so mad about it that I all but self-combust! =^..^= From: Pamela Bain Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:42 PM To: mailto: Subject: Re: Carpenter's Book.
Not to mention the actions of his brothers, the death of Anne and his son, and the many circles of hell which surrounded the last of the Plantagenets. The more I read, the more astounded I am at the machinations of so many, and for so long.
On May 1, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
I can't bear to think about the what-ifs of that charge. Whatever Richard's reasons, it went wrong and it cost him his life. Damn Henry Call me Lucky Tudor, his unChristian Mummy, his poxy uncle Jasper, the sodding Stanleys, and any other lily-livered
ratbag who did the dirty on Richard. He was too good for the lot of them. There, now I feel better.
Sandra
=^..^=
From:
justcarol67@...
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Carpenter's Book.
Paul quoted me.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
If someone gives me magical powers, you will get to go back and tell
everything!
On May 1, 2014, at 12:50 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...>
wrote:
If only I was 500 years younger, I'd sort them all out! But he
must have been one heck of a strong man to endure all that adversity and
still be a fine king. Sometimes I get so mad about it that I all but
self-combust!
=^..^=
From: Pamela
Bain
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:42 PM
To: mailto:
Subject: Re: Carpenter's
Book.
Not to mention the actions of his brothers, the death of Anne and his
son, and the many circles of hell which surrounded the last of the
Plantagenets. The more I read, the more astounded I am at the machinations of
so many, and for so long.
On May 1, 2014, at 12:38 PM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...>
wrote:
I can't bear to think about the what-ifs of that charge. Whatever
Richard's reasons, it went wrong and it cost him his life. Damn Henry Call
me Lucky Tudor, his unChristian Mummy, his poxy uncle Jasper, the sodding
Stanleys, and any other lily-livered ratbag who did the dirty on Richard. He
was too good for the lot of them. There, now I feel better.
Sandra
=^..^=
From: justcarol67@...
Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2014 6:21 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Re : Re: Carpenter's
Book.
Paul quoted me.
> Poor Richard. If he had foreseen the consequences of his death, maybe
> he wouldn't have made that last desperate charge.
Paul wrote:
"Is that assuming he was feeling desperate? I think not. It was one of
those 'close run things" that people would have called brilliant had it
succeeded, as it so nearly did.
Carol responds:
Poor choice of words on my part. I agree with you that he was not feeling desperate though if, as I believe, Norfolk was already dead, he must have felt the need for an unexpected and definitive tactic to get rid of the Tudor once and for all, and perhaps in his excitement, he outpaced his household knights, giving Sir William the opportunity to get between him and them.
I agree that his tactic would have been regarded as brilliant, inspired, and daring had he succeeded instead of brave but foolish or doomed. The propaganda would have stated that God was on his side instead of Tudor's/
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
<<Can you copy Margaret's letter to Isabella for us? That seems to blow a lot of my theories out of the water. I wonder what she thought had become of her nephews? Surely, she didn't believe that Richard had ordered them killed. She certainly seems to have supported him--and she was unquestionably an enemy to Tudor.>>
Sorry to jump in, but could this be the same letter quoted extensively in Ann Wroe's book on Perkin Warbeck? If it is, then there may be a couple of caveats.
First, assuming Wroe's translation is accurate, Margaret uses the impersonal third-person: "everyone" believed and "they" thought Richard of Shrewsbury was dead, not that she believed it herself.
Second, Wroe makes the point that Margaret's letter wasn't meant to be a straightforward account, but more a political canvassing for support for "Richard." For Margaret to say that he miraculously appeared long after everyone thought he was dead could be read as her attempt to rebut allegations that she created and coached an impostor. (Or could also conceal her previous sheltering of the real Richard of Shrewsbury, if that's what she had done.) In other words, presenting a miraculous survival story was a way of bolstering the case for his authenticity.
The letter in the Wroe book, if it is the same one, is pretty disingenuous to me. For instance, Margaret claims that "Richard" is the last "male Remnant" of the House of York, and her "only nephew." Neither of those things were true, since Edward and Richard de la Pole were both still around. My guess is that Margaret wanted a Yorkist king back on the throne, and since it hadn't worked in the name of George's son or by the sword of John de la Pole in 1487, and since Tudor's support mostly came via his wife as a daughter of Edward IV, by then Margaret may have felt the only chance to succeed was with a son of Edward IV (whether real or feigned). I don't think Edward's direct line would have been her preference, though, since Edward himself hadn't exactly exerted himself on her behalf when she needed him to--unlike George and Richard, who had wanted to help her.
If there is a different letter, though, I am curious to see it too!
Cathy
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
Carol wrote:
<<Can you copy Margaret's letter to Isabella for us? That seems to blow a lot of my theories out of the water. I wonder what she thought had become of her nephews? Surely, she didn't believe that Richard had ordered them killed. She certainly seems to have supported him--and she was unquestionably an enemy to Tudor.>>
Sorry to jump in, but could this be the same letter quoted extensively in Ann Wroe's book on Perkin Warbeck? If it is, then there may be a couple of caveats.
First, assuming Wroe's translation is accurate, Margaret uses the impersonal third-person: "everyone" believed and "they" thought Richard of Shrewsbury was dead, not that she believed it herself.
Second, Wroe makes the point that Margaret's letter wasn't meant to be a straightforward account, but more a political canvassing for support for "Richard." For Margaret to say that he miraculously appeared long after everyone thought he was dead could be read as her attempt to rebut allegations that she created and coached an impostor. (Or could also conceal her previous sheltering of the real Richard of Shrewsbury, if that's what she had done.) In other words, presenting a miraculous survival story was a way of bolstering the case for his authenticity.
The letter in the Wroe book, if it is the same one, is pretty disingenuous to me. For instance, Margaret claims that "Richard" is the last "male Remnant" of the House of York, and her "only nephew." Neither of those things were true, since Edward and Richard de la Pole were both still around. My guess is that Margaret wanted a Yorkist king back on the throne, and since it hadn't worked in the name of George's son or by the sword of John de la Pole in 1487, and since Tudor's support mostly came via his wife as a daughter of Edward IV, by then Margaret may have felt the only chance to succeed was with a son of Edward IV (whether real or feigned). I don't think Edward's direct line would have been her preference, though, since Edward himself hadn't exactly exerted himself on her behalf when she needed him to--unlike George and Richard, who had wanted to help her.
If there is a different letter, though, I am curious to see it too!
Cathy
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Mary
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Hi Carol,
In her favour Elizabeth I did remarkably well during her reign. There may have been problems but they were usually solved without too much trouble. We might not have had some of the literature and art that was produced. The general public seemed to hold her in high regard. It was only towards the end of her reign with climate change and the need for a successor that things unravelled a bit. Don't know whether a King could have done much better and they certainly could have done a lot worse.
Kathryn x
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
"Sorry to jump in, but could this be the same letter quoted extensively in Ann Wroe's book on Perkin Warbeck? If it is, then there may be a couple of caveats. [snip the rest--sorry]"
Thank you very much, Cathy. That's very reassuring. By the way, you said that Edward and Richard de la Pole were still around. Do you mean Edward of Warwick (who was in the Tower) and Edmund de la Pole? Richard de la Pole was younger and didn't start his career as claimant (I don't like the term "pretender," particularly for those whose claim was genuine) until after Edmund was executed by Henry VIII.
What was the original language of the letter? That might make a difference, too. (I would still like to see the letter so I can draw my own conclusions.)
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
"Carol - here is the translation; not by Wroe but by Morel-Fatio 'Marguerite Duchess of York' [snip translation and part of post]No-where is it hinted (so far certainly) that the princes were murdered - Tyrell hasn't been mentioned and Richard only is in passing. This is about the pretender Warbeck, not them. So if you take the Baldwin version, which is that the princes were taken elsewhere by someone else, then the Margaret story is not an issue. What I was trying to explore in my earlier posts is that Tyrell was primarily a devotee of the Woodvilles, not the House of York. In fact Arthurson (who does quote Horrox extensively) says that after HT became king it created a curious vacuum in East Anglia, where their loyalty had been chanelled towards EW rather than Edward or Richard. Hope this helps."
Carol responds:
Thanks, Hilary. I'm relieved that Margaret doesn't mention any murders or her personal belief that her nephews had been killed! In fact, this letter takes me back to my own views on Tyrell's role in rescuing the boys. After all, who better than a man trusted by *both* Richard and EW to take the boys to safety? And wouldn't a letter or token from Tyrell to assure EW that they were safe, or better still, the knowledge that he would escort both her and her sons to safety, be the perfect way to get EW out of sanctuary? Which takes us back to the Gipping tradition that the boys were there with their mother "by permission of the uncle."
Tyrell need not have been working without Richard's knowledge, and I don't see how he could have earned Richard's trust for a lucrative and important mission to Burgundy (pertaining "greatly to our weal") if he had somehow smuggled the boys out of the Tower without Richard's knowledge or permission. Brackenbury (who, of course, remained loyal to Richard) would have to have known, and he wouldn't have acted without Richard's signature and seal.
Loyalty to EW is a whole 'nother ballgame from loyalty to MB!
Carol
Re: Re : Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Carpenter's Book.
"Carol - here is the translation; not by Wroe but by Morel-Fatio 'Marguerite Duchess of York'" Carol responds:
I've found the original source, or rather, a citation for it: A[lfred] Morel-Fatio, Marguerite d'York et Perkin Warbeck , Mélangesd'histoire offerts à Charles Bemont (Paris, 1913), p. 414. Wroe cites it in her very interesting article, 'Perkin Warbeck' and Elizabeth of York: The Meeting That Never Was, Ricardian Register, Vol. XXVIII, number 4 (Winter 2003). I'm assuming that the original article (including the letter) was in French and that the translation is Wroe's. She only paraphrases a sentence or two in the article. I haven't read her book, and I don't read French, so I wouldn't be able to read the original article (or the untranslated letter). A few snippets are available here if anyone wants to try to find the letter: http://books.google.com/books?ei=t05kU_eoGIiWyAS4tYCoBg&id=a8sfAAAAMAAJ&dq=M%C3%A9langes+d%E2%80%99histoire+offerts+%C3%A0+Charles+Bemont&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=Marguerite
Carol, with apologies for the unfixable font glitches
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Carol wrote:
<< By the way, you said that Edward and Richard de la Pole were still around. Do you mean Edward of Warwick (who was in the Tower) and Edmund de la Pole? Richard de la Pole was younger and didn't start his career as claimant (I don't like the term "pretender," particularly for those whose claim was genuine) until after Edmund was executed by Henry VIII.>>
Sorry, that was just me being a doofus trying to type late at night. :) I meant Edmund, rather than Edward de la Pole, and only that they were living nephews. It seemed strange to me that Margaret would declare Perkin to be her only living nephew when she had to know there were others.
<<What was the original language of the letter? That might make a
difference, too. (I would still like to see the letter so I can draw my own
conclusions.)>>
The original seems to have been in Latin; Wroe gives one Latin sentence from it: Tandem ipse Dux Eboracensis ex Francia ad me venit (which Google Translate renders as At length, he came to me from France, the Duke of York ). Some of Wroe's book is available for preview on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Perfect_Prince.html?id=29Q01BrDr-EC
You can type Isabella into the search box on this webpage, and a bunch of pages from the book will come up. Margaret's letter to Isabella about meeting Perkin is introduced at the bottom of page 128, and the bulk of it is given on page 129but unfortunately it's only the translation, not the original.
The text Hilary has provided is the same letter in the Wroe book, but not the same translationso I now feel more confident that the original Latin must have used the third person for the crucial phrase, since both translations use it there: whom they once thought dead and (in Wroe's rendering) who they thought had died long ago. Since the rest of the letter is in first person I recognized him, I embraced him, etc.I think it's all the more telling that Margaret switched to third person for this particular point instead of saying whom *I* once thought dead.
Hope this helps,
Cathy
Re: Carpenter's Book.
This issue can be clarified through two chapters of a recent book.
From:
[mailto: ]
On Behalf Of cattivoid
Sent: 03 May 2014 04:24
To:
Subject: Re: [Richard III Society
Forum] Carpenter's Book.
Carol wrote:
<< By the way, you said that Edward and Richard de la Pole were still around. Do you mean Edward of Warwick (who was in the Tower) and Edmund de la Pole? Richard de la Pole was younger and didn't start his career as claimant (I don't like the term "pretender," particularly for those whose claim was genuine) until after Edmund was executed by Henry VIII.>>
Sorry, that was just me being a doofus trying to type late at night. :) I meant Edmund, rather than “Edward” de la Pole, and only that they were living nephews. It seemed strange to me that Margaret would declare Perkin to be her only living nephew when she had to know there were others.
<<What was the original language of the letter? That might make a
difference, too. (I would still like to see the letter so I can draw my own
conclusions.)>>
The original seems to have been in Latin; Wroe gives one Latin sentence from it: “Tandem ipse Dux Eboracensis ex Francia ad me venit” (which Google Translate renders as “At length, he came to me from France, the Duke of York”). Some of Wroe’s book is available for preview on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Perfect_Prince.html?id=29Q01BrDr-EC
You can type “Isabella” into the search box on this webpage, and a bunch of pages from the book will come up. Margaret’s letter to Isabella about meeting Perkin is introduced at the bottom of page 128, and the bulk of it is given on page 129—but unfortunately it’s only the translation, not the original.
The text Hilary has provided is the same letter in the Wroe book, but not the same translation—so I now feel more confident that the original Latin must have used the third person for the crucial phrase, since both translations use it there: “whom they once thought dead” and (in Wroe’s rendering) “who they thought had died long ago.” Since the rest of the letter is in first person—“I recognized him,” “I embraced him,” etc.—I think it’s all the more telling that Margaret switched to third person for this particular point instead of saying “whom *I* once thought dead.”
Hope this helps,
Cathy
Re: Carpenter's Book.
"The original seems to have been in Latin; Wroe gives one Latin sentence from it: Tandem ipse Dux Eboracensis ex Francia ad me venit (which Google Translate renders as At length, he came to me from France, the Duke of York ). Some of Wroe's book is available for preview on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books/about/The_Perfect_Prince.html?id=29Q01BrDr-EC [snip]
"The text Hilary has provided is the same letter in the Wroe book, but not the same translationso I now feel more confident that the original Latin must have used the third person for the crucial phrase, since both translations use it there: whom they once thought dead and (in Wroe's rendering) who they thought had died long ago. Since the rest of the letter is in first person I recognized him, I embraced him, etc.I think it's all the more telling that Margaret switched to third person for this particular point instead of saying whom *I* once thought dead. "
Carol responds:
Thanks. I read the available pages--also a few snippets in which both Margaret and Perkin/Richard both refer to Henry as a tyrant and usurper, which I find comforting. Interesting that the letter is in Latin and would have been translated (presumably from English) by Margaret's secretary. Too bad the original dictation isn't preserved.
I don't know what to think of the Perkin Warbeck story. I'm actually more interested in Richard's and Margaret's relationship and her support of him as king.
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
---In , <stephenmlark@...> wrote :
This issue can be clarified through two chapters of a recent book.
Carol responds:
Stephen, my dear, sometimes I think that your cryptic messages are designed to drive me batty! Which two chapters or which book?
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
Carol
Re: Carpenter's Book.
http://bretwaldabooks.com/book.php?p=192
From:
[mailto: ]
On Behalf Of justcarol67@...
Sent: 03 May 2014 18:25
To:
Subject: RE: [Richard III Society
Forum] Carpenter's Book.
---In ,
<stephenmlark@...> wrote :
This issue can be clarified through two chapters of a recent book.
Carol responds:
Stephen, my dear, sometimes I think that your cryptic messages are designed to
drive me batty! Which two chapters or which book?
Carol
Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
Saturday, 3rd May 2014
Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
Re: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
Hello everyone. This is a long post, but I thought those of you who couldn't get to Tewkesbury yesterday might like to know my impressions. The event goes on today and tomorrow, but the crown was only on display yesterday.
Saturday, 3rd May 2014
Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
Re: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
It's too bad there wasn't more of Richard, but it sounds like they went all out for George. The times I've been there the vault was closed, glad to hear you managed to see it. I wonder, since they don't seem to be completely sure that it is George's bones down there, if they have any thought to comparing the DNA to Richard's.
Gilda
On May 4, 2014, at 2:36 AM, SandraMachin wrote:
Hello everyone. This is a long post, but I thought those of you who couldn't get to Tewkesbury yesterday might like to know my impressions. The event goes on today and tomorrow, but the crown was only on display yesterday. Saturday, 3rd May 2014 Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
Re: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
Gilda
On May 4, 2014, at 2:54 AM, SandraMachin wrote:
PS I have now uploaded a new album (Armour at the Abbey Tewkesbury Abbey) at the usual place. There are over 30 of them I took 109 altogether. If anyone else was there, please add your pictures. It was a wonderful day out. Sandra=^..^= From: SandraMachinSent: Sunday, May 04, 2014 7:36 AMTo: Subject: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
Hello everyone. This is a long post, but I thought those of you who couldn't get to Tewkesbury yesterday might like to know my impressions. The event goes on today and tomorrow, but the crown was only on display yesterday. Saturday, 3rd May 2014 Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
Re: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
On May 4, 2014, at 1:36 AM, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
Hello everyone. This is a long post, but I thought those of you who couldn't get to Tewkesbury yesterday might like to know my impressions. The event goes on today and tomorrow, but the crown was only on display yesterday.
Saturday, 3rd May 2014
Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
Re: Armour at the Abbey Event at Tewkesbury Abbey - Funeral Crown
On 4 May 2014, at 07:36, "SandraMachin" <sandramachin@...> wrote:
Hello everyone. This is a long post, but I thought those of you who couldn't get to Tewkesbury yesterday might like to know my impressions. The event goes on today and tomorrow, but the crown was only on display yesterday.
Saturday, 3rd May 2014
Before I even begin to describe the delights of Tewkesbury Abbey's Armour at the Abbey event, let me say it was a truly enjoyable occasion. Simply wonderful. Praise to all concerned. But I have one reservation, which will be described in due course.
So, it's Saturday, 3rd May 2014, the English spring weather is perfect, and I arrived early, 10.30, to look around the abbey before the official opening at 11. Surprisingly, there were not many people around, but the atmosphere was humming with excitement. There were a lot of beautiful flower arrangements, some of which were particularly impressive.
Then folk started to arrive, people of so many different nationalities, as well as British stalwarts. Footsteps and voices rang through the great church, and the sense of anticipation began to grow. There was some disgruntlement because a number of people had wanted to buy John Ashdown-Hill's book, The Third Plantagenet, and expected him to be there to sign copies, but they discovered he wasn't signing anything until 3 p.m. So perhaps some sales were lost.
There was quite a long queue at the ticket desk as 11 approached, and everyone was chattering. At last the moment came, and we were allowed in. It wasn't quite the opening of Harrods' sale, but the thought did pass through my mind. The first person I saw then was John Ashdown-Hill, which surprised me, considering I'd been hearing the grumbling. I spoke to him (not about disgruntlements, or indeed about signing my copy of his Clarence book, which I'd brought with me!) He told me to look out for his coming book on Lambert Simnel, and I promised I would. Well, I have all the others, so must go for the full set.
He showed me the funeral crown. It was in a side chapel, practically the first you came to after the desk. If he hadn't said that was where the crown was displayed, I would have walked right past it, which, indeed, a lot of people did. It is the siting and set-up of this part of the event with which I find fault. Anyway, for the moment I will continue. There was a rope barrier to prevent us getting close, so the crown had to be viewed at a little distance, which prevented the detail being examined. Thank goodness for the invention of zoom on cameras! The crown was atop a red velvet cloth, as if on the summit of a blunt pyramid. I couldn't help wishing someone could unite it for a moment with the reconstruction of Richard's head. OK, it's a funeral crown, but as it has been made to fit his head measurements, it seems such an opportunity lost. Unless, of course, someone already has this in hand? Hint.
Then I moved on, to the other enticements, which included minstrels (superb!), people dressed in costumeEdward IV, Anthony Woodville, 2nd Earl Rivers, Elizabeth Woodville, Proud Cis, George of Clarence and . . . no Richard? If he was there, I did not see him. But Edward IV was splendid in black velvet and crown, if sporting a beard. The gentleman playing Earl Rivers was being prepared to wear full armour. He said that it weighed a great deal and took about forty minutes to don fully. He was right, but it was fascinating to see every lace tied, every buckle done up, every small piece of armour put in place that finally transformed him into a knight as we like to think of them. He looked magnificent. Hats off to him. Helms off?
The minstrels were very skilled, and had everyone's feet tapping. They earned their rapturous applause. It was truly atmospheric to hear their music in such surroundings. Maybe it wouldn't be the sort of music they would have played in church in Richard's time, but it wasn't difficult to imagine the building was a great palace, and all the onlookers were members of his court. It was also easy to think of dancing to such jaunty notes. Oh, the power of imagination . . .
Viewing the little vault where George, Duke of Clarence is believed to lie with his duchess, is not usually possible. But it was open today. There are not many steps down, but they are steep. I hied myself down there and took photographs, only to realize when I clambered back up again that the abbey preferred photographs not to be taken in the vault. Ooops. Well, it was too late by then. The bones are in a glass case, set against the wall opposite the steps, and there were a lot of tea lights shining. I did not have a sense of George and Isabel. The bones are jumbled up (they have to be, they were jumbled when found) but there was something oddly remote about them. I don't know if anyone else has ever felt that way. Detached is probably the word I am looking for.
Next came the great highlight for me, the knighting of George, Duke of Clarenceor re-knighting, I am not sureafter he had left the fold to join Warwick the Kingmaker, and then come back in again. The sweet scent of incense drifted in clouds as George knelt before his elder brother, Edward IV, being ritually cleansed and prepared, praying all the while. He was dressed in armour, royal surcoat and plumed helmet, before Edward dubbed him knight again. Only then was George allowed to stand, and I thought his knees must have been sore. Kneeling for so long in armour cannot be easy! Finally was an opportunity for photographs to be taken of the royal family, who all looked regal. Still could not tell if Richard was supposed to be there.
I decided it was time to leave, and as I walked back towards the desk, and the side chapel where the crown was on display, I realized that the whole of that small area of the abbey was sort-of made over to Richard. I hadn't noticed when I arrived. It seemed as if they'd started to prepare it, but run out of time. Or, because the crown was only on display today, it was not worth bothering with anything too lavish. Anyway, there was a likeness of him as the king's brothere , and an old reproduction of the NPG portrait. His boar banner was there, and white roses, but it was all somehow abandoned. Like the crown, it was something people passed on their way to where it was really at. This saddened me, because, as is said in Dirty Dancing , Nobody puts Richard in a corner!
But even so, I have nothing but praise for the event, which was superb entertainment and well worth seeing. I hope that by describing my experience, others can enjoy it a little too.
