[email protected] has shared Richard III: High Court battle l
[email protected] has shared Richard III: High Court battle l
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] [email protected] has shared
Follow-up article deals with the legal fees incurred by the various parties
and indicates that the PA has until June 13 to file an appeal. Richard III: High
Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-High-Court-battle-leaves-winners/story-21157199-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_leicestermercury#bGQVOTr45CxeXYU3.03
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shared this using Po.st: http://www.po.st
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RE: [Richard III Society Forum] [email protected] has shared
Hi, Sandra
It seemed weird to me, too. I know that in Nova Scotia, it is possible (at least in a civil case), for one party to make an application for security for costs, meaning that the other side has to prove in advance that it has the financial means to pay costs in the event they are ordered later. Obviously this is the *opposite* of what they report was done in this case the Claimant filed something that they shouldn't be held liable for costs, no matter what. The article says that was because the PA was a shell company, which I interpret as something that is set up like a company but which has no assets and probably no cash flow.
It is not uncommon for lawyers to contribute their services on a pro bono basis, as a service to a needy client, but there does seem to be some fundamental unfairness, doesn't there? Of course, the lawyers for the City and the Minister and the University could have also decided to donate their time. ;-)
Again in NS, and I think this probably holds true for the UK as well, although an order for costs normally follows the result, it is possible for the courts to order that all the parties will bear their own costs. That is often the case when there is a legitimate issue to be tried and both sides have some merit, and no party unduly drags things out and/or abuses the process of the court. In this case, one could almost have envisioned an order for costs being made against the City of Leicester, since the court's severest criticism was reserved for it. However, again this might be seen as unfairness, corporate bodies, like a City council, are normally responsible for paying such orders, and not the individual members who may have been responsible for making bad decisions. In this case, it is likely that by jumping into the case, the City caused extra expense for everyone else, and unfortunately did not contribute in a felicitous way to the proceedings.
The law may be an a**, as someone once said, but no one can deny its fascination as to how these things can work out.
Despite my willingness to debate ad nauseam, emotionally I agree with Paul that it is (past) time to lay the King to rest with all honour and dignity befitting an anointed King of England.
Loyaulte,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 9:04 AM
To:
Subject: Re: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
To put this whole thing in proportion, why can it be possible to bring a case against someone, have no costs whatsoever, because the defence lawyers are doing it for nothing, and when the case is lost, walk away scot free? I know it was within the law, but what a rubbish law. I trust this loophole will soon be plugged. How many other self-interest groups will now tread the same path? I do not mean Ricardian paths, but everything. The cat is out of the bag, and everyone knows that a little within-the-law wriggling gets you around responsibility. My comment has nothing to do with whether or not I support Leicester or York, rather with the whole principle of this challenge. If I had a case brought against me and won, I certainly do not think I should left to pay for the privilege of being innocent of wrongdoing. My costs should be paid for by the losing side. Whoever took me to the court in the first place should have to cough up, not me for successfully defending myself. It's wrong. It's legal mugging. And it's something anyone can do on a whim. (I'm not saying the Alliance acted on a whim, just that it is possible to do so.) I wanted Richard in Gloucester anyway, so have no bias in this. My preference was out on a limb from the start. And please, I am not being argumentative or stirring, it is simply the principle that gets my goat.
Sandra
=^..^=
From: mailto:
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:40 AM
To:
Subject: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
Follow-up article deals with the legal fees incurred by the various parties and indicates that the PA has until June 13 to file an appeal. Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-High-Court-battle-leaves-winners/story-21157199-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_leicestermercury#bGQVOTr45CxeXYU3.03
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] [email protected] has shared
It's certainly an anomaly and explains Chris Grayling's anger about the whole process. The "shell company" thing also explains why the PA established itself along corporate grounds from the off, which I thought odd for a campaigning group. I also note that until 21 May the PA was soliciting for donations. If they've incurred no costs, I'd be interested as to where the money's gone. They may only have received 25p but, equally, they may have received £25,000. Whatever they raised may have been eaten up by their pro bono-legal costs but, again, not necessarily. There's been a lack of clarity from the beginning that I've found very dubious...
I suppose the worst thing is that, purely in PR terms, it's cast the Judicial Review system in a poor light. JR is coming under enough pressure as it is from the government, and I don't want them to have more ammunition to curtail it.
Jonathan
From: "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2014, 13:04
Subject: Re: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
To put this whole thing in proportion, why can it be possible to bring a case against someone, have no costs whatsoever, because the defence lawyers are doing it for nothing, and when the case is lost, walk away scot free? I know it was within the law, but what a rubbish law. I trust this loophole will soon be plugged. How many other self-interest groups will now tread the same path? I do not mean Ricardian paths, but everything. The cat is out of the bag, and everyone knows that a little within-the-law wriggling gets you around responsibility. My comment has nothing to do with whether or not I support Leicester or York, rather with the whole principle of this challenge. If I had a case brought against me and won, I certainly do not think I should left to pay for the privilege of being innocent of wrongdoing. My costs should be paid for by the losing side. Whoever took me to the court in the first place should have to cough up, not me for successfully defending myself. It's wrong. It's legal mugging. And it's something anyone can do on a whim. (I'm not saying the Alliance acted on a whim, just that it is possible to do so.) I wanted Richard in Gloucester anyway, so have no bias in this. My preference was out on a limb from the start. And please, I am not being argumentative or stirring, it is simply the principle that gets my goat. Sandra =^..^=
From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:40 AM To: Subject: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury Follow-up article deals with the legal fees incurred by the various parties and indicates that the PA has until June 13 to file an appeal. Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-High-Court-battle-leaves-winners/story-21157199-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_leicestermercury#bGQVOTr45CxeXYU3.03
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] [email protected] has shared
"pro-bono legal costs", of course, is a contradiction in terms. What I meant was, I'm sure that there must have been some expense involved, even if much of the work was voluntary, but enough to eat up the contributions of, to quote the PA website, "all those people who have so generously given for the cause over the past 14 months"?
Jonathan
From: "Jonathan Evans jmcevans98@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2014, 14:09
Subject: Re: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
It's certainly an anomaly and explains Chris Grayling's anger about the whole process. The "shell company" thing also explains why the PA established itself along corporate grounds from the off, which I thought odd for a campaigning group. I also note that until 21 May the PA was soliciting for donations. If they've incurred no costs, I'd be interested as to where the money's gone. They may only have received 25p but, equally, they may have received £25,000. Whatever they raised may have been eaten up by their pro bono-legal costs but, again, not necessarily. There's been a lack of clarity from the beginning that I've found very dubious...
I suppose the worst thing is that, purely in PR terms, it's cast the Judicial Review system in a poor light. JR is coming under enough pressure as it is from the government, and I don't want them to have more ammunition to curtail it.
Jonathan
From: "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2014, 13:04
Subject: Re: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
To put this whole thing in proportion, why can it be possible to bring a case against someone, have no costs whatsoever, because the defence lawyers are doing it for nothing, and when the case is lost, walk away scot free? I know it was within the law, but what a rubbish law. I trust this loophole will soon be plugged. How many other self-interest groups will now tread the same path? I do not mean Ricardian paths, but everything. The cat is out of the bag, and everyone knows that a little within-the-law wriggling gets you around responsibility. My comment has nothing to do with whether or not I support Leicester or York, rather with the whole principle of this challenge. If I had a case brought against me and won, I certainly do not think I should left to pay for the privilege of being innocent of wrongdoing. My costs should be paid for by the losing side. Whoever took me to the court in the first place should have to cough up, not me for successfully defending myself. It's wrong. It's legal mugging. And it's something anyone can do on a whim. (I'm not saying the Alliance acted on a whim, just that it is possible to do so.) I wanted Richard in Gloucester anyway, so have no bias in this. My preference was out on a limb from the start. And please, I am not being argumentative or stirring, it is simply the principle that gets my goat. Sandra =^..^=
From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:40 AM To: Subject: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury Follow-up article deals with the legal fees incurred by the various parties and indicates that the PA has until June 13 to file an appeal. Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-High-Court-battle-leaves-winners/story-21157199-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_leicestermercury#bGQVOTr45CxeXYU3.03
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] [email protected] has shared
Hi, Sandra
It seemed weird to me, too. I know that in Nova Scotia, it is possible (at least in a civil case), for one party to make an application for security for costs, meaning that the other side has to prove in advance that it has the financial means to pay costs in the event they are ordered later. Obviously this is the *opposite* of what they report was done in this case the Claimant filed something that they shouldn't be held liable for costs, no matter what. The article says that was because the PA was a shell company, which I interpret as something that is set up like a company but which has no assets and probably no cash flow.
It is not uncommon for lawyers to contribute their services on a pro bono basis, as a service to a needy client, but there does seem to be some fundamental unfairness, doesn't there? Of course, the lawyers for the City and the Minister and the University could have also decided to donate their time. ;-)
Again in NS, and I think this probably holds true for the UK as well, although an order for costs normally follows the result, it is possible for the courts to order that all the parties will bear their own costs. That is often the case when there is a legitimate issue to be tried and both sides have some merit, and no party unduly drags things out and/or abuses the process of the court. In this case, one could almost have envisioned an order for costs being made against the City of Leicester, since the court's severest criticism was reserved for it. However, again this might be seen as unfairness, corporate bodies, like a City council, are normally responsible for paying such orders, and not the individual members who may have been responsible for making bad decisions. In this case, it is likely that by jumping into the case, the City caused extra expense for everyone else, and unfortunately did not contribute in a felicitous way to the proceedings.
The law may be an a**, as someone once said, but no one can deny its fascination as to how these things can work out.
Despite my willingness to debate ad nauseam, emotionally I agree with Paul that it is (past) time to lay the King to rest with all honour and dignity befitting an anointed King of England.
Loyaulte,
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
or jltournier@...
"With God, all things are possible."
- Jesus of Nazareth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From:
[mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, May
29, 2014 9:04 AM
To:
Subject: Re: [Richard III
Society Forum] jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court
battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester
Mercury
To put this whole thing in proportion, why can it be possible to bring a case against someone, have no costs whatsoever, because the defence lawyers are doing it for nothing, and when the case is lost, walk away scot free? I know it was within the law, but what a rubbish law. I trust this loophole will soon be plugged. How many other self-interest groups will now tread the same path? I do not mean Ricardian paths, but everything. The cat is out of the bag, and everyone knows that a little within-the-law wriggling gets you around responsibility. My comment has nothing to do with whether or not I support Leicester or York, rather with the whole principle of this challenge. If I had a case brought against me and won, I certainly do not think I should left to pay for the privilege of being innocent of wrongdoing. My costs should be paid for by the losing side. Whoever took me to the court in the first place should have to cough up, not me for successfully defending myself. It's wrong. It's legal mugging. And it's something anyone can do on a whim. (I'm not saying the Alliance acted on a whim, just that it is possible to do so.) I wanted Richard in Gloucester anyway, so have no bias in this. My preference was out on a limb from the start. And please, I am not being argumentative or stirring, it is simply the principle that gets my goat.
Sandra
=^..^=
From: mailto:
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 11:40 AM
To:
Subject: jltournier60@... has shared Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000 costs | Leicester Mercury
Follow-up article deals with the legal fees
incurred by the various parties and indicates that the PA has until June 13 to
file an appeal. Richard III: High Court battle leaves winners with £250,000
costs | Leicester Mercury http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Richard-III-High-Court-battle-leaves-winners/story-21157199-detail/story.html?ito=email_newsletter_leicestermercury#bGQVOTr45CxeXYU3.03
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using Po.st: http://www.po.st
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