Executions

A grisly question this, perhaps I should just ask Desmond Morris;
Five women were beheaded under thee Tudors (except for anyone I have
forgotten).
Lady Margaret and Mary Stuart were both seriously bungled. Excluding
Anne Boleyn (because she especially requested a sword) this is a 50%
error rate, which does not apply to men (a much larger sample).
WHY?
Were executioners more nervous? Did extra fat in the female neck
hinder a blunt axe?

Five women only? Who is on your list?
Margaret Plantagenet
Anne Boleyn
Lady Rochford
Catherine Howard
Lady Jane Grey
Mary Stewart
there must be more.
Anybody?
I'm sure the number of bungled jobs amongst the males was just as high.
Not really something you could practice for. I don't think a blunt axe
was often used, just a blunt executioner!
The worse mess up we know of was Monmouth in the 1680s.
Paul

On 16 Aug 2004, at 21:41, stephenmlark wrote:

> A grisly question this, perhaps I should just ask Desmond Morris;
> Five women were beheaded under thee Tudors (except for anyone I have
> forgotten).
> Lady Margaret and Mary Stuart were both seriously bungled. Excluding
> Anne Boleyn (because she especially requested a sword) this is a 50%
> error rate, which does not apply to men (a much larger sample).
> WHY?
> Were executioners more nervous? Did extra fat in the female neck
> hinder a blunt axe?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
you're never too old to launch your dreams

Stephen:
> Five women were beheaded under the Tudors (except
> for anyone I have forgotten).
> Lady Margaret and Mary Stuart were both seriously bungled.
> Excluding Anne Boleyn (because she especially requested a
> sword) this is a 50% error rate, which does not apply to men
> (a much larger sample). WHY?
> Were executioners more nervous? Did extra fat in the female neck
> hinder a blunt axe?

Ann:
Francis I of France specifically offered to send his own executioner, who used a sword and was especially good, for Anne Boleyn. And, indeed, several of the witnesses commented afterwards on how quickly it was over.

The Countess of Salisbury is said to have had the bad luck to have had a deputy executioner -- the official, experienced one was away. Chapuys, writing to Queen Mary of Hungary, spoke of her 'very strange and lamentable execution,' which took place 'at the Tower in the presence of the Lord Mayor of London and about 150 persons more'. In the absence of the executioner, 'a wretched and blundering youth was chosen, who literally hacked her head and shoulders to pieces in the most pitiful manner'.

Otherwise, I have read that the pain of the axe was regarded as part of the punishment. I am not sure that anyone has done a study on the efficiency of the executioners, or that a quick end was a professional goal (since the victim usually paid the executioner to do a quick job, it should have been a craft skill, but a number of victims should have had their money refunded!).

L.P.H.,

Ann
axsc@...
http://mzbworks.home.att.net/ann.htm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I saw a demonstration on the History channel once that showed how it is actually very difficult to cut off a person's head with an axe - without a "real" demonstration of course. They mentioned that the guillotine was invented because of the flaw rate of the axe-type executions. They did not mention a higher rate of women's executions being botched, just that we hear about them more as so many more men were executed than women. Women are more "delicate" (they thought, not me!) so messing up her execution would have seemed more barbaric than executing a man who "deserved" it.
Jane

*Courage is the power to let go of the familiar*

jew2@...


----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Trevor Bale
To:
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: Executions


Five women only? Who is on your list?
Margaret Plantagenet
Anne Boleyn
Lady Rochford
Catherine Howard
Lady Jane Grey
Mary Stewart
there must be more.
Anybody?
I'm sure the number of bungled jobs amongst the males was just as high.
Not really something you could practice for. I don't think a blunt axe
was often used, just a blunt executioner!
The worse mess up we know of was Monmouth in the 1680s.
Paul

On 16 Aug 2004, at 21:41, stephenmlark wrote:

> A grisly question this, perhaps I should just ask Desmond Morris;
> Five women were beheaded under thee Tudors (except for anyone I have
> forgotten).
> Lady Margaret and Mary Stuart were both seriously bungled. Excluding
> Anne Boleyn (because she especially requested a sword) this is a 50%
> error rate, which does not apply to men (a much larger sample).
> WHY?
> Were executioners more nervous? Did extra fat in the female neck
> hinder a blunt axe?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
you're never too old to launch your dreams





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The guillotine was in fact invented, or copied from other earlier
versions like the Halifax Gibbet, to make executions more egalitarian,
as beheading had up until the Revolution been reserved for the
aristocracy, the ordinary folks were burned, squashed, hanged, which
meant choking then, or torn apart by horses. Nice, eh?
Paul

On 17 Aug 2004, at 18:05, Jane E. Ward wrote:

> I saw a demonstration on the History channel once that showed how it
> is actually very difficult to cut off a person's head with an axe -
> without a "real" demonstration of course. They mentioned that the
> guillotine was invented because of the flaw rate of the axe-type
> executions. They did not mention a higher rate of women's executions
> being botched, just that we hear about them more as so many more men
> were executed than women. Women are more "delicate" (they thought,
> not me!) so messing up her execution would have seemed more barbaric
> than executing a man who "deserved" it.
> Jane
>
> *Courage is the power to let go of the familiar*
>
> jew2@...
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Trevor Bale
> To:
> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2004 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: Executions
>
>
> Five women only? Who is on your list?
> Margaret Plantagenet
> Anne Boleyn
> Lady Rochford
> Catherine Howard
> Lady Jane Grey
> Mary Stewart
> there must be more.
> Anybody?
> I'm sure the number of bungled jobs amongst the males was just as
> high.
> Not really something you could practice for. I don't think a blunt
> axe
> was often used, just a blunt executioner!
> The worse mess up we know of was Monmouth in the 1680s.
> Paul
>
> On 16 Aug 2004, at 21:41, stephenmlark wrote:
>
>> A grisly question this, perhaps I should just ask Desmond Morris;
>> Five women were beheaded under thee Tudors (except for anyone I have
>> forgotten).
>> Lady Margaret and Mary Stuart were both seriously bungled. Excluding
>> Anne Boleyn (because she especially requested a sword) this is a 50%
>> error rate, which does not apply to men (a much larger sample).
>> WHY?
>> Were executioners more nervous? Did extra fat in the female neck
>> hinder a blunt axe?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> you're never too old to launch your dreams
>
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> ADVERTISEMENT
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While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how one
is "drawn and quartered?"

Also, did the witnesses who attended these blood and
guts shows do so for official reasons or for fun?
Being "torn apart by horses" must have been a sight
(worth seeing).

Here in America, in the last century and earlier, we
preferred public lynchings, legal and illegal.
Announced official lynchings drew big crowds. Folks
came from all over to watch public hangings. Often,
the crowds anticipated mishaps and botched jobs.

I suspect that the term "gallows humour" came out of
these events. Its a peculiar sensibility that causes
us to laugh at seeing someone get hurt, like falling
out of chair.

Galen






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Hung, drawn and quartered.

Hung by the neck until nearly dead

Cut down while still alive, and disembowelled, the
penis and testicles were cut off and the stomach was
slit open. The intestines and heart were removed and
burned before them. The other organs were torn out.

Finally the head was cut off and the body divided into
four quarters (often by being four horses sent in the
four cardinal directions). The head and quarters were
parboiled to prevent them rotting too quickly and then
displayed upon the city gates as a grim warning to
all.

Yuck

--- Galen <galenbrux@...> wrote:

> While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how
> one
> is "drawn and quartered?"
>
> Also, did the witnesses who attended these blood and
> guts shows do so for official reasons or for fun?
> Being "torn apart by horses" must have been a sight
> (worth seeing).
>
> Here in America, in the last century and earlier, we
> preferred public lynchings, legal and illegal.
> Announced official lynchings drew big crowds. Folks
> came from all over to watch public hangings. Often,
> the crowds anticipated mishaps and botched jobs.
>
> I suspect that the term "gallows humour" came out of
> these events. Its a peculiar sensibility that causes
> us to laugh at seeing someone get hurt, like falling
> out of chair.
>
> Galen
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
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What would a fellow have to do to be treated so rudely?


--- In , Odette d'Amboise
<alannawolfhart@y...> wrote:
> Hung, drawn and quartered.
>
> Hung by the neck until nearly dead
>
> Cut down while still alive, and disembowelled, the
> penis and testicles were cut off and the stomach was
> slit open. The intestines and heart were removed and
> burned before them. The other organs were torn out.
>
> Finally the head was cut off and the body divided into
> four quarters (often by being four horses sent in the
> four cardinal directions). The head and quarters were
> parboiled to prevent them rotting too quickly and then
> displayed upon the city gates as a grim warning to
> all.
>
> Yuck
>
> --- Galen <galenbrux@y...> wrote:
>
> > While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how
> > one
> > is "drawn and quartered?"
> >
> > Also, did the witnesses who attended these blood and
> > guts shows do so for official reasons or for fun?
> > Being "torn apart by horses" must have been a sight
> > (worth seeing).
> >
> > Here in America, in the last century and earlier, we
> > preferred public lynchings, legal and illegal.
> > Announced official lynchings drew big crowds. Folks
> > came from all over to watch public hangings. Often,
> > the crowds anticipated mishaps and botched jobs.
> >
> > I suspect that the term "gallows humour" came out of
> > these events. Its a peculiar sensibility that causes
> > us to laugh at seeing someone get hurt, like falling
> > out of chair.
> >
> > Galen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > __________________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
> > http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish.
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

On 17 Aug 2004, at 21:27, Galen wrote:

> While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how one
> is "drawn and quartered?"
>
Hanged, drawn and quartered. Hanged, but not dropped so that it was
basically a slow choking. At the same time the limbs were pulled in
different directions, or drawn, but no so far that they came out of
their sockets. Cut down the victim had his sexual members cut off and
burned in a brazier were he could see them, Then he was slowly opened
and his bowels drawn out. A skilful executioner would keep the victim
alive through all of this agony before finally chopping his head off.
Then the body was chopped into four pieces and sent off round the land
for public exhibition.
> Also, did the witnesses who attended these blood and
> guts shows do so for official reasons or for fun?
> Being "torn apart by horses" must have been a sight
> (worth seeing).
>
Executions done privately, inside the Tower for example, would be
witnessed by a specially invited group, a huge privilege if it was the
Queen about to lose her head. Public executions, which the majority
were, were a family outing, people often getting there very early to
get a good view.
> Here in America, in the last century and earlier, we
> preferred public lynchings, legal and illegal.
> Announced official lynchings drew big crowds. Folks
> came from all over to watch public hangings. Often,
> the crowds anticipated mishaps and botched jobs.
>
The hanging of a highwayman at Tyburn in London in the 1700s would
empty the city. Everyone went to watch it. So not much difference
there.
The quarterings were the bloodiest of all executions, and drew the
biggest crowds. William Wallace was one of the first to suffer this
awful death. Guy Fawkes also died by that method. The English
authorities loved killing Catholics in this manner.
> I suspect that the term "gallows humour" came out of
> these events. Its a peculiar sensibility that causes
> us to laugh at seeing someone get hurt, like falling
> out of chair.
>
People went to see the executions for entertainment, and to remind
themselves of their own mortality. It also made them laugh knowing it
wasn't happening to them!
Paul
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
> On 17 Aug 2004, at 21:27, Galen wrote:
>
> > While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how one
> > is "drawn and quartered?"
> >
> Hanged, drawn and quartered. Hanged, but not dropped so that it was
> basically a slow choking.

Drop method hadn't been invented, of course. All victims of hanging
got a slow choking.

At the same time the limbs were pulled in
> different directions, or drawn, but no so far that they came out of
> their sockets.

From what I have read, however, we no longer really know what was
meant by the "drawn" bit. Some suggest it refers to the victims being
drawn to the place of excution on a hurdle (which they were); some,
to the "drawing" of the intestines (which also took place).
Other than the film Braveheart, I've not encountered this third
definition of "drawing" (although to be fair I tend to skip those
kinds of books). Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us
whether the pulling of the limbs actually went on?
You really had to be a traitor to get this sort of special treatment.

Marie

Marie
> Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us
> whether the pulling of the limbs actually went on?

Ann:
Illustrations of the martyrdom of various saints? I'm sure I have
seen an illustration in an illuminated manuscript reproduction of
Saint Lawrence having his intestines removed, for instance.

L.P.H.,

Ann

--- In , "Ann Sharp"
<axsc@p...> wrote:
> Marie
> > Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us
> > whether the pulling of the limbs actually went on?
>
> Ann:
> Illustrations of the martyrdom of various saints? I'm sure I have
> seen an illustration in an illuminated manuscript reproduction of
> Saint Lawrence having his intestines removed, for instance.
>
> L.P.H.,
>
> Ann

Yes, but those were particular martyrdoms, generally in Roman times.
The method of martytrdom was an integral and well-known part of that
particular saint's story. What I really wondered is if we have any
contemporary depictions of hanging, drawing and quartering as it was
carried out as a method of execution in England in the Middle Ages.
There's no doubt about some of it, I know: the removal and burning of
the intestines, for instance. But some of the other stuff, I'm not
sure. For instance, if the victim were choked whilst being stretched,
that I'm sure would not have been hanging, long drop or otherwise,
and would not have been referred to as such I'm sure.
Marie

hello everyone, to be hung,drawn and quartered usually was the death met by 'traitors' it entailed, being drawn lying down on a very low stretcher type base, over all the cobble stones roads etc., the worse roads to create the worst agony and this would have been after many hours of torture on the rack etc., they would have be in dreadful agony with every bump in the stone filled gravel type road, once drawn to the excution site, they would have a noose put around their necks and would be swung up to anything towards 20' in the air, left dangling for afew good moments, just enough to cause choking and suffering and then let down, they were then put onto a large wooden block, their genitals were then cut off, their body was cut open from the base to the chest, then their entrail, liver, kidneys in fact all the intrnal organs, the heart being the last etc., were taken out and put onto apan of fire, whilst the victim in excruiating agong watch, then after a time the head was cut off,
the four limbs were cut off and each was sent to apart of the Country that the person either grew up in,or knew, this form of death could take anything from an hour or so to many hours, Guy Fawkes suffered this death, hence you get the "hung drawn and quartered" as I said this was held for treason against the monachy and the most people were executed by slow strangulaton of hanging which took up to anything of 20 minutes to die......Liz




marie <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
> On 17 Aug 2004, at 21:27, Galen wrote:
>
> > While we're on this topic, can anyone tell me how one
> > is "drawn and quartered?"
> >
> Hanged, drawn and quartered. Hanged, but not dropped so that it was
> basically a slow choking.

Drop method hadn't been invented, of course. All victims of hanging
got a slow choking.

At the same time the limbs were pulled in
> different directions, or drawn, but no so far that they came out of
> their sockets.

From what I have read, however, we no longer really know what was
meant by the "drawn" bit. Some suggest it refers to the victims being
drawn to the place of excution on a hurdle (which they were); some,
to the "drawing" of the intestines (which also took place).
Other than the film Braveheart, I've not encountered this third
definition of "drawing" (although to be fair I tend to skip those
kinds of books). Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us
whether the pulling of the limbs actually went on?
You really had to be a traitor to get this sort of special treatment.

Marie




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--- In , elizabeth Foley
<liz_foley1254@y...> wrote:
> hello everyone, to be hung,drawn and quartered usually was the
death met by 'traitors' it entailed, being drawn lying down on a very
low stretcher type base, over all the cobble stones roads etc., the
worse roads to create the worst agony and this would have been after
many hours of torture on the rack etc.,

Well, maybe in Tudor times. The first rack was introduced into
England about 1440, by the Constable of the Tower, John Holland Duke
of Exeter (future father-in-law of Anne of York). He had seen them in
France and reckoned it a neat idea. It was known as "The Duke of
Exeter's Daughter". I don't know what the source is, but it is always
said that Henry VI wouldn't allow it to be used. I don't know that
there is any evidence of its use until the 16th century.

Marie

Just a few points in reply to this excellent debate so far:

"Perkin Warbeck" was drawn and hanged but died from that stage as the torture had weakened him.
The DNB says that Thomas Stafford was drawn, hanged and quartered but other sources (Robinson and Castelli) disagree. As his father had been restored to the Barony nine years earlier, I agree with the other sources. Surely noone deserved this mode of execution, although we might make an exception for N*** K******.

The guillotine was developed from the Halifax Maiden, the main difference being a diagonal blade. This was far cleaner and more egalitarian than an axe or sword but less dignified - the victim was not in charge. Note that Messalina, wife of Claudius, was beheaded with a sword fifteen centuries before Anne Boleyn's special request.

Thanks to Paul for reminding me about Viscountess Rochford (c.1510-42, nee Jane Parker), the sixth noblewoman to be beheaded during the whole Tudor era. I cannot think of any more.

Stephen

> Marie
> > Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us whether the
> > pulling of the limbs actually went on?
>
> Ann:
> Illustrations of the martyrdom of various saints?
>
> L.P.H.,
>
> Ann


Marie:
Yes, but those were particular martyrdoms, generally in Roman times.
The method of martyrdom was an integral and well-known part of that
particular saint's story. What I really wondered is if we have any
contemporary depictions of hanging, drawing and quartering as it was
carried out as a method of execution in England in the Middle Ages.

Ann again:
Yes, but ... Since the art of the time showed people dressed in
medieval clothing even when they were classical Greeks or Romans, I
would expect that representations of martyrdom were equally
contemporary, so if an illumination shows a saint who was martyred in
any given way, I'd expect that the version we're seeing is the medieval
method.


Stephen:
Thanks to Paul for reminding me about Viscountess Rochford (c.1510-42,
nee Jane Parker), the sixth noblewoman to be beheaded during the whole
Tudor era. I cannot think of any more.

Ann again:
I think that's all there were. The plaque on Tower Green
commemorates the five women who died there, Mary having died at
Fotheringhay.

--- In , "Sharp, Ann"
<axsc@p...> wrote:
> > Marie
> > > Are there illustrations of H d q which would tell us whether
the
> > > pulling of the limbs actually went on?
> >
> > Ann:
> > Illustrations of the martyrdom of various saints?
> >
> > L.P.H.,
> >
> > Ann
>
>
> Marie:
> Yes, but those were particular martyrdoms, generally in Roman times.
> The method of martyrdom was an integral and well-known part of that
> particular saint's story. What I really wondered is if we have any
> contemporary depictions of hanging, drawing and quartering as it was
> carried out as a method of execution in England in the Middle Ages.
>
> Ann again:
> Yes, but ... Since the art of the time showed people dressed
in
> medieval clothing even when they were classical Greeks or Romans, I
> would expect that representations of martyrdom were equally
> contemporary, so if an illumination shows a saint who was martyred
in
> any given way, I'd expect that the version we're seeing is the
medieval
> method.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think the argument holds.
The medieval clothing was shown because the written versions of these
stories presented a vacuum in that department - clothes weree not the
point of the story. The stories of these saints, handed down since
early Christian times, majored on graphic details of their
martyrdoms. The medieval imagery was concerned to portray these
martyrdoms specifically. They were so NOT "off the peg" executions
that the viewer was meant to be able to recognise the saint from the
picture of the martyrdom.

As for the picture you recall - perhaps it was St Elmo, whose
intestines were wound out with a windlass (thus making him a patron
saint of sailors)? St Lawrence was I think roasted on a gridiron.

You get the picture.

Marie