Dates of Death for Richard's Siblings Who Died Young/In Infancy

Does anyone here remember ever seeing exact dates for the deaths of
Richard's siblings who died young/in infancy?

No, and I was shocked to read that he was the 12th child.
On Aug 19, 2014, at 6:22 PM, "Wednesday Mac wednesday.mac@... []" <> wrote:

Does anyone here remember ever seeing exact dates for the deaths of
Richard's siblings who died young/in infancy?

Joan 1438 (no day and month)Henry 10 Feb 1441William 07 Jul 1447John 7 Nov 1448Thomas 1451Ursula 22 Jul 1455 Have I missed any Marie? H

Hilary wrote (re dates of death for Richard's infant siblings):"Joan 1438 (no day and month)Henry 10 Feb 1441William 07 Jul 1447John 7 Nov 1448Thomas 1451Ursula 22 Jul 1455 Have I missed any Marie?"Marie replies:Joan is, I'm afraid, one of Alison Weir's imaginary friends. She included this Joan in her book on Plantagenet genealogy, and this has been much copied..... John A-H & myself were puzzling over her when he was writing his Clarence book, as she doesn't appear in any contemporary list that we were aware of, so I suggested he contact AW via her website. He did so, she said she didn't know where she'd got Joan from but she couldn't find any evidence for her now and would remove her from the next edition.As for the others, these are *birth* dates. Thomas's birth date isn't actually known because he's missed off the two lists that include birth dates (one was written before he was born, and the other after he had died), so he only appears in the poem on York's children. I don't think the dates of *death* of any of these are known, with the possible exception of Ursula but if I have that information I'm afraid I can't lay my hands on it now.

Yes I agree Joan is 'iffey' - she's certainly not in the rhyme. And presumably some dates could have been christening dates, though it's not an area I've explored? H

Hilary wrote:"Yes I agree Joan is 'iffey' - she's certainly not in the rhyme. And presumably some dates could have been christening dates, though it's not an area I've explored? HMarie:I looked at this in some detail with John A-H, and it was an interesting exercise. He spent some time tracking down all the versions he could find of the list of York's children. There is no Joan, and Alison Weir now admits as much. e basically have the heraldic rhyme on York's children, in English and Latin, plus two versions of a list of births with dates from the papers of William Worcester which must I think have been copied from a list that York himself kept. The dates are birth dates - that is made quite clear - although of course many baptisms in those days took place on the day of birth. The first version of Worcester's list was copied after George's birth, and goes no further. For most of the children it even gives the exact time of birth. It doesn't give the day of the week for any of the births. The second list continues the first, but Worcester accidentally picked up again at Richard, missing Thomas. It has also introduced a few copying errors, such as giving April as the month of Elizabeth's birth rather than September as per Worcester's earlier copy*. It also introduces the days of the week of each birth, but these are not right in a lot of the cases.My belief is that these birth details - exact date, time and place of birth - would have been kept by York for astrological purposes (probably the couple of missing birth times were in York's list but were missed by Worcester). That's would explain why Worcester's weekdays are all wrong - they weren't in York's list because they had no astrological significance, and Worcester worked them out for himself afterwards.*September is definitely correct because we have a record of Elizabeth's baptism in the Rouen cathedral registers. She was baptized on the day of her birth.

Thanks a million! I have learned an awful lot since joining this forum and still keep learning. H

---In , <hjnatdat@...> wrote :

Joan 1438 (no day and month)Henry 10 Feb 1441William 07 Jul 1447John 7 Nov 1448Thomas 1451Ursula 22 Jul 1455 Have I missed any Marie? H

Weds writes:

Wow, Hilary...Thanks so much. Where did you find these?