Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
I've probably bored you stiff in the past about my views on potential French, Welsh and 'Margaret Beaufort' influences which stirred things against Richard in 1483. Well in response to David's latest assertions that these noble gents rose of their own accord to support to HT I resorted to a bit more research.
Bear with me whilst I get to the cusp. I looked into the Danvers family, who, if you do the genealogy of this period, seem to crop up all over the place. You won't find them in any battles because they were lawyers and MPs but their rise makes Catesby's look paltry. They were based almost next door to Catesby (and Eleanor Butler) near Banbury, with manors in Northants, Oxon, Bucks and Herts and were Lancastrian to the core - an earlier Danvers had been Cofferer to Henry IV. That didn't stop them getting on under Edward - Sir Robert (died 1467) and his half brother, Sir William (died 1504) became Chief Justices of Common Pleas, and their brother Richard (died 1489) was Comptroller of Customs. But this aside, there are two things of interest. The first is that Sir William and Richard were MPs for Taunton and Dorset respectively. Now they'd never set foot in those places to our knowledge, but they spoke in Parliament on their behalf. Another brother, Thomas, was JP for Southampton. The second thing is that their sister, Bona, married Sir Geoffrey Pole, whose first wife had been Edith, MB's half-sister. Geoffrey and Edith's son was Sir Richard Pole, who afterwards married Clarence's daughter Margaret. So here is evidence of another MB network in the South West. By 1487 Richard Danvers' son John had married a Stradling (remember the Turbeville connection) and had moved to Dauntsey in Wilts, where he became Sheriff. His brother in law became HT's Speaker of the House of Commons and his sons and daughters married Courtenays and Hungerfords.
There is another strand of this which directly affects Richard and that is to do with wardships. The Danvers family were closely allied through marriage to the Fiennes (Lords Say and Sele) family of nearby Broughton. I think it was Carol who pointed out that Richard was appointed guardian to Richard Fiennes (4 Lord Say and Sele) after his Yorkist grandfather's death at Barnet. That would not have gone down well with the Danvers family. Two of Richard Fiennes' three children were later to marry a Danvers. Secondly the marriage between John Danvers and Anne Stradling was contracted with the belief that she would be her father's sole heiress. However, her father had a son, Edward, just before his death in 1471. Edward too was a King's ward and appealed to Richard in June 1483, just after he became King. Richard obviously ruled in favour of Edward because in 1488 the boy was murdered by John Danvers and - Sir Richard Pole.
So to summarise:
1. To claim that the 'West Country' rose up with indignation against Richard is a bland statement to say the least. One can see from the above that it was easy to plant influential people there with MB sympathies.
2. MB's networks were not be to be ignored. The rewards all these people gained afterwards confirm that
3. There's evidence that Richard's idea of justice regarding things like wardships didn't chime with the self-interested. Even days after his accession he was beginning to be a pest to them.
4. All this, combined with other conspiracies and grudge-holders, made him a prime target in the early days of his reign.
Sorry this is so long but I hope it helps to show things are never as straightforward as some statements seem to make them. H
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
Cheers
Jonathan
From: "hjnatdat@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 21 August 2014, 11:29
Subject: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
I've probably bored you stiff in the past about my views on potential French, Welsh and 'Margaret Beaufort' influences which stirred things against Richard in 1483. Well in response to David's latest assertions that these noble gents rose of their own accord to support to HT I resorted to a bit more research. Bear with me whilst I get to the cusp. I looked into the Danvers family, who, if you do the genealogy of this period, seem to crop up all over the place. You won't find them in any battles because they were lawyers and MPs but their rise makes Catesby's look paltry. They were based almost next door to Catesby (and Eleanor Butler) near Banbury, with manors in Northants, Oxon, Bucks and Herts and were Lancastrian to the core - an earlier Danvers had been Cofferer to Henry IV. That didn't stop them getting on under Edward - Sir Robert (died 1467) and his half brother, Sir William (died 1504) became Chief Justices of Common Pleas, and their brother Richard (died 1489) was Comptroller of Customs. But this aside, there are two things of interest. The first is that Sir William and Richard were MPs for Taunton and Dorset respectively. Now they'd never set foot in those places to our knowledge, but they spoke in Parliament on their behalf. Another brother, Thomas, was JP for Southampton. The second thing is that their sister, Bona, married Sir Geoffrey Pole, whose first wife had been Edith, MB's half-sister. Geoffrey and Edith's son was Sir Richard Pole, who afterwards married Clarence's daughter Margaret. So here is evidence of another MB network in the South West. By 1487 Richard Danvers' son John had married a Stradling (remember the Turbeville connection) and had moved to Dauntsey in Wilts, where he became Sheriff. His brother in law became HT's Speaker of the House of Commons and his sons and daughters married Courtenays and Hungerfords. There is another strand of this which directly affects Richard and that is to do with wardships. The Danvers family were closely allied through marriage to the Fiennes (Lords Say and Sele) family of nearby Broughton. I think it was Carol who pointed out that Richard was appointed guardian to Richard Fiennes (4 Lord Say and Sele) after his Yorkist grandfather's death at Barnet. That would not have gone down well with the Danvers family. Two of Richard Fiennes' three children were later to marry a Danvers. Secondly the marriage between John Danvers and Anne Stradling was contracted with the belief that she would be her father's sole heiress. However, her father had a son, Edward, just before his death in 1471. Edward too was a King's ward and appealed to Richard in June 1483, just after he became King. Richard obviously ruled in favour of Edward because in 1488 the boy was murdered by John Danvers and - Sir Richard Pole. So to summarise: 1. To claim that the 'West Country' rose up with indignation against Richard is a bland statement to say the least. One can see from the above that it was easy to plant influential people there with MB sympathies. 2. MB's networks were not be to be ignored. The rewards all these people gained afterwards confirm that 3. There's evidence that Richard's idea of justice regarding things like wardships didn't chime with the self-interested. Even days after his accession he was beginning to be a pest to them. 4. All this, combined with other conspiracies and grudge-holders, made him a prime target in the early days of his reign. Sorry this is so long but I hope it helps to show things are never as straightforward as some statements seem to make them. H
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
I've probably bored you stiff in the past about my views on potential French, Welsh and 'Margaret Beaufort' influences which stirred things against Richard in 1483. Well in response to David's latest assertions that these noble gents rose of their own accord to support to HT I resorted to a bit more research.
Bear with me whilst I get to the cusp. I looked into the Danvers family, who, if you do the genealogy of this period, seem to crop up all over the place. You won't find them in any battles because they were lawyers and MPs but their rise makes Catesby's look paltry. They were based almost next door to Catesby (and Eleanor Butler) near Banbury, with manors in Northants, Oxon, Bucks and Herts and were Lancastrian to the core - an earlier Danvers had been Cofferer to Henry IV. That didn't stop them getting on under Edward - Sir Robert (died 1467) and his half brother, Sir William (died 1504) became Chief Justices of Common Pleas, and their brother Richard (died 1489) was Comptroller of Customs. But this aside, there are two things of interest. The first is that Sir William and Richard were MPs for Taunton and Dorset respectively. Now they'd never set foot in those places to our knowledge, but they spoke in Parliament on their behalf. Another brother, Thomas, was JP for Southampton. The second thing is that their sister, Bona, married Sir Geoffrey Pole, whose first wife had been Edith, MB's half-sister. Geoffrey and Edith's son was Sir Richard Pole, who afterwards married Clarence's daughter Margaret. So here is evidence of another MB network in the South West. By 1487 Richard Danvers' son John had married a Stradling (remember the Turbeville connection) and had moved to Dauntsey in Wilts, where he became Sheriff. His brother in law became HT's Speaker of the House of Commons and his sons and daughters married Courtenays and Hungerfords.
There is another strand of this which directly affects Richard and that is to do with wardships. The Danvers family were closely allied through marriage to the Fiennes (Lords Say and Sele) family of nearby Broughton. I think it was Carol who pointed out that Richard was appointed guardian to Richard Fiennes (4 Lord Say and Sele) after his Yorkist grandfather's death at Barnet. That would not have gone down well with the Danvers family. Two of Richard Fiennes' three children were later to marry a Danvers. Secondly the marriage between John Danvers and Anne Stradling was contracted with the belief that she would be her father's sole heiress. However, her father had a son, Edward, just before his death in 1471. Edward too was a King's ward and appealed to Richard in June 1483, just after he became King. Richard obviously ruled in favour of Edward because in 1488 the boy was murdered by John Danvers and - Sir Richard Pole.
So to summarise:
1. To claim that the 'West Country' rose up with indignation against Richard is a bland statement to say the least. One can see from the above that it was easy to plant influential people there with MB sympathies.
2. MB's networks were not be to be ignored. The rewards all these people gained afterwards confirm that
3. There's evidence that Richard's idea of justice regarding things like wardships didn't chime with the self-interested. Even days after his accession he was beginning to be a pest to them.
4. All this, combined with other conspiracies and grudge-holders, made him a prime target in the early days of his reign.
Sorry this is so long but I hope it helps to show things are never as straightforward as some statements seem to make them. H
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
Why were there three bad years in a row? A huge and ash-spewing (and thus sun-blocking) eruption of an Icelandic volcano in 1480 (in the same area that is now rumbling) might have had something to do with that:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1r%C3%B0arbunga#870_and_1480
Tamara
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
On Friday, 22 August 2014, 0:42, "khafara@... []" <> wrote:
It occurs to me that the fact that there were three bad harvests in a row (1481-3) might have played a role in the 1483 unrest. (And the fact that the 1490s on the whole had very good harvesting might explain why Henry was able to put down the various rebellions.)For more, see: http://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/12n1a3.pdf
Why were there three bad years in a row? A huge and ash-spewing (and thus sun-blocking) eruption of an Icelandic volcano in 1480 (in the same area that is now rumbling) might have had something to do with that:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C3%A1r%C3%B0arbunga#870_and_1480
Tamara
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
On Thursday, 21 August 2014, 13:56, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:
Excellent delving and unearthing. Now we just need to shove MB, HT et al into the hole, cover em up again, and haul a great big unmarked slab on top! And no, you didn't bore me stiff this time or any other time. It astonishes me that you manage to keep tabs on all these different threads, and then explain it so lucidly. Thank you. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:29 AM To: Subject: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions I've probably bored you stiff in the past about my views on potential French, Welsh and 'Margaret Beaufort' influences which stirred things against Richard in 1483. Well in response to David's latest assertions that these noble gents rose of their own accord to support to HT I resorted to a bit more research. Bear with me whilst I get to the cusp. I looked into the Danvers family, who, if you do the genealogy of this period, seem to crop up all over the place. You won't find them in any battles because they were lawyers and MPs but their rise makes Catesby's look paltry. They were based almost next door to Catesby (and Eleanor Butler) near Banbury, with manors in Northants, Oxon, Bucks and Herts and were Lancastrian to the core - an earlier Danvers had been Cofferer to Henry IV. That didn't stop them getting on under Edward - Sir Robert (died 1467) and his half brother, Sir William (died 1504) became Chief Justices of Common Pleas, and their brother Richard (died 1489) was Comptroller of Customs. But this aside, there are two things of interest. The first is that Sir William and Richard were MPs for Taunton and Dorset respectively. Now they'd never set foot in those places to our knowledge, but they spoke in Parliament on their behalf. Another brother, Thomas, was JP for Southampton. The second thing is that their sister, Bona, married Sir Geoffrey Pole, whose first wife had been Edith, MB's half-sister. Geoffrey and Edith's son was Sir Richard Pole, who afterwards married Clarence's daughter Margaret. So here is evidence of another MB network in the South West. By 1487 Richard Danvers' son John had married a Stradling (remember the Turbeville connection) and had moved to Dauntsey in Wilts, where he became Sheriff. His brother in law became HT's Speaker of the House of Commons and his sons and daughters married Courtenays and Hungerfords. There is another strand of this which directly affects Richard and that is to do with wardships. The Danvers family were closely allied through marriage to the Fiennes (Lords Say and Sele) family of nearby Broughton. I think it was Carol who pointed out that Richard was appointed guardian to Richard Fiennes (4 Lord Say and Sele) after his Yorkist grandfather's death at Barnet. That would not have gone down well with the Danvers family. Two of Richard Fiennes' three children were later to marry a Danvers. Secondly the marriage between John Danvers and Anne Stradling was contracted with the belief that she would be her father's sole heiress. However, her father had a son, Edward, just before his death in 1471. Edward too was a King's ward and appealed to Richard in June 1483, just after he became King. Richard obviously ruled in favour of Edward because in 1488 the boy was murdered by John Danvers and - Sir Richard Pole. So to summarise: 1. To claim that the 'West Country' rose up with indignation against Richard is a bland statement to say the least. One can see from the above that it was easy to plant influential people there with MB sympathies. 2. MB's networks were not be to be ignored. The rewards all these people gained afterwards confirm that 3. There's evidence that Richard's idea of justice regarding things like wardships didn't chime with the self-interested. Even days after his accession he was beginning to be a pest to them. 4. All this, combined with other conspiracies and grudge-holders, made him a prime target in the early days of his reign. Sorry this is so long but I hope it helps to show things are never as straightforward as some statements seem to make them. H
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
On Friday, 22 August 2014, 8:53, "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <> wrote:
Thanks Sandra - it's like wading through treacle most of the time. MB was a better politician than her son though. Like Edward, she understood what motivated people was greed; I think it's Jones and Underwood who say that MB looked after her own well and there's plenty of evidence of that.HT could have learned from her. I agree with your sentiments, particularly today. H
On Thursday, 21 August 2014, 13:56, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:
Excellent delving and unearthing. Now we just need to shove MB, HT et al into the hole, cover em up again, and haul a great big unmarked slab on top! And no, you didn't bore me stiff this time or any other time. It astonishes me that you manage to keep tabs on all these different threads, and then explain it so lucidly. Thank you. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, August 21, 2014 11:29 AM To: Subject: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions I've probably bored you stiff in the past about my views on potential French, Welsh and 'Margaret Beaufort' influences which stirred things against Richard in 1483. Well in response to David's latest assertions that these noble gents rose of their own accord to support to HT I resorted to a bit more research. Bear with me whilst I get to the cusp. I looked into the Danvers family, who, if you do the genealogy of this period, seem to crop up all over the place. You won't find them in any battles because they were lawyers and MPs but their rise makes Catesby's look paltry. They were based almost next door to Catesby (and Eleanor Butler) near Banbury, with manors in Northants, Oxon, Bucks and Herts and were Lancastrian to the core - an earlier Danvers had been Cofferer to Henry IV. That didn't stop them getting on under Edward - Sir Robert (died 1467) and his half brother, Sir William (died 1504) became Chief Justices of Common Pleas, and their brother Richard (died 1489) was Comptroller of Customs. But this aside, there are two things of interest. The first is that Sir William and Richard were MPs for Taunton and Dorset respectively. Now they'd never set foot in those places to our knowledge, but they spoke in Parliament on their behalf. Another brother, Thomas, was JP for Southampton. The second thing is that their sister, Bona, married Sir Geoffrey Pole, whose first wife had been Edith, MB's half-sister. Geoffrey and Edith's son was Sir Richard Pole, who afterwards married Clarence's daughter Margaret. So here is evidence of another MB network in the South West. By 1487 Richard Danvers' son John had married a Stradling (remember the Turbeville connection) and had moved to Dauntsey in Wilts, where he became Sheriff. His brother in law became HT's Speaker of the House of Commons and his sons and daughters married Courtenays and Hungerfords. There is another strand of this which directly affects Richard and that is to do with wardships. The Danvers family were closely allied through marriage to the Fiennes (Lords Say and Sele) family of nearby Broughton. I think it was Carol who pointed out that Richard was appointed guardian to Richard Fiennes (4 Lord Say and Sele) after his Yorkist grandfather's death at Barnet. That would not have gone down well with the Danvers family. Two of Richard Fiennes' three children were later to marry a Danvers. Secondly the marriage between John Danvers and Anne Stradling was contracted with the belief that she would be her father's sole heiress. However, her father had a son, Edward, just before his death in 1471. Edward too was a King's ward and appealed to Richard in June 1483, just after he became King. Richard obviously ruled in favour of Edward because in 1488 the boy was murdered by John Danvers and - Sir Richard Pole. So to summarise: 1. To claim that the 'West Country' rose up with indignation against Richard is a bland statement to say the least. One can see from the above that it was easy to plant influential people there with MB sympathies. 2. MB's networks were not be to be ignored. The rewards all these people gained afterwards confirm that 3. There's evidence that Richard's idea of justice regarding things like wardships didn't chime with the self-interested. Even days after his accession he was beginning to be a pest to them. 4. All this, combined with other conspiracies and grudge-holders, made him a prime target in the early days of his reign. Sorry this is so long but I hope it helps to show things are never as straightforward as some statements seem to make them. H
In Memory of Richard...
On this day of sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
Anointed, betrayed, King Richard is slain
And cannot watch over his realm again
Never to smile or converse, to laugh or to write
To dance or to hunt, or display his royal might
Never to mete justice and care for his nation
Or defend his people from foreign invasion
Today there is sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
His soul we will cherish
His memory cannot perish
Richard is dead
All joy has fled
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
And I was wondering, why I never before had heard about this big catastrophe, that should be present in the memory of all lands in the northern hemiphere.
Eva
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
Re: In Memory of Richard...
Lovely, Sandra.
Thank you.
Jess
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
From: 'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... [] <>;
To: <>;
Subject: In Memory of Richard...
Sent: Fri, Aug 22, 2014 8:35:45 AM
On this day of sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
Anointed, betrayed, King Richard is slain
And cannot watch over his realm again
Never to smile or converse, to laugh or to write
To dance or to hunt, or display his royal might
Never to mete justice and care for his nation
Or defend his people from foreign invasion
Today there is sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
His soul we will cherish
His memory cannot perish
Richard is dead
All joy has fled
Re: In Memory of Richard...
In Memory of Richard...
Lovely, Sandra – thank you!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 5:36 AM
To:
Subject: In Memory of Richard...
On this day of sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
Anointed, betrayed, King Richard is slain
And cannot watch over his realm again
Never to smile or converse, to laugh or to write
To dance or to hunt, or display his royal might
Never to mete justice and care for his nation
Or defend his people from foreign invasion
Today there is sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
His soul we will cherish
His memory cannot perish
Richard is dead
All joy has fled
In Memory of Richard...
Lovely, Sandra – thank you!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 5:36 AM
To:
Subject: In Memory of Richard...
On this day of sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
Anointed, betrayed, King Richard is slain
And cannot watch over his realm again
Never to smile or converse, to laugh or to write
To dance or to hunt, or display his royal might
Never to mete justice and care for his nation
Or defend his people from foreign invasion
Today there is sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
His soul we will cherish
His memory cannot perish
Richard is dead
All joy has fled
Re: In Memory of Richard...
I do not post much on here, mostly because I really wished Richard could have been brought home to Yorkshire. Anyhow as it is the 22nd August, I thought I would simply post a poem I wrote a few months ago. I do hope it makes people think a little; however I am not wanting to incur any more re interment arguments at the present time.
Regards.
On Friday, 22 August 2014, 15:49, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <> wrote:
Lovely, Sandra thank you!
Johanne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Johanne L. Tournier
Email - jltournier60@...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: [mailto:]
Sent: Friday, August 22, 2014 5:36 AM
To:
Subject: In Memory of Richard...
On this day of sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
Anointed, betrayed, King Richard is slain
And cannot watch over his realm again
Never to smile or converse, to laugh or to write
To dance or to hunt, or display his royal might
Never to mete justice and care for his nation
Or defend his people from foreign invasion
Today there is sorrow for the loss of our king
The bells do toll, and cannot ring
His soul we will cherish
His memory cannot perish
Richard is dead
All joy has fled
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
Pansy
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
In our age of modern agriculture, it's forgotten how thin a knife-edge the harvest was for most of Europe for most of its civilized history. The W.G. Hoskins paper to which I linked states that right up until the eighteenth century the yield ratio of seed corn to harvested crop was typically between 1 to 3 or 1 to 4; that's a shade above the minimum considered necessary by agronomists to sustain human life. (en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_yield) It would be interesting to compare the volanic activity of Iceland to the harvest records for Europe.
Tamara
---In , <eva.pitter@...> wrote :
Hi Tamara,thank you for this interesting post! Not long ago I saw a documentation about the eruption of the volcano Laki in Iceland in 1783, which had a dramatic effect on the whole northern hemisphere. The harvests were destroyed by sulphur in the ash cloud that cowered large parts of Europe for at least a month. Many people died,for the sulphur reacted with the moisture in their lungs to sulphuric acid. Afterwards the temperature sank for some years. One article I read suggested that the ensuing famine was one of the reasons that led to the French Revolution.
And I was wondering, why I never before had heard about this big catastrophe, that should be present in the memory of all lands in the northern hemiphere.
Eva
Re: In Memory of Richard...
Alison
Thank you it is very beautiful.....
In perfect harmony with a lady called Frances's pastel drawing.
Very many thanks
Kathryn x
Re: Motivation for the 1483 rebellions
https://archive.org/stream/memorialsdanver00macngoog#page/n641/mode/2up Even though it's old he is very meticulous in stating his sources, criticising Visitations and weighing up whether things ring right or not. The Stradling thing is on the web in quite a few places as well. The link will take you to the index but it's in the section on the Danvers in Dauntsey. He of course, is writing family history so has no political axe to grind but he does make a lovely point about the middle classes getting on with it whilst the aristocracy carved themselves to bits on the battlefield. Incidentally, I've been following up Danvers' links and Richard Fiennes, who was once Richard's ward, married, in about 1492 one Elizabeth Croft who just happened to be the great-grandaughter of Owen Glendower. It does make one wonder how many years it took to forge all these links. I doubt anyone could have whipped them up between June and October 1483. Another interesting thing is the Fiennes and Danvers links with New College and All Souls Oxford. William of Wykeham was potentially related to the Fiennes family (they always boasted of it and it's on their website). New College was of course the main training college for the priesthood. Now that was useful, wasn't it? H
