A talk on the Middleham Jewel

A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 08:30:08
SandraMachin
The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 08:54:00
pansydobersby
That talk would be very interesting, Sanda - I hope somebody reports what it said!
I suppose they assume it belonged to a lady because the magic word is 'ananizapta' rather than 'ananizaptus'.
Pansy

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 11:35:18
Pamela Bain
What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 11:47:18
SandraMachin
Sorry Pamela, I meant to put the word Middleham' at the beginning, in between The' and jewel'. But it is in the subject line, so I remembered that much! <g> From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:35 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 11:48:25
Pamela Bain
Early here, and obviously I did not completely read the post. Thanks for clarifying this addled woman's mind.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 5:47 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

Sorry Pamela, I meant to put the word Middleham' at the beginning, in between The' and jewel'. But it is in the subject line, so I remembered that much! <g> From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:35 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 11:52:08
Pamela Bain
I just found photos and explanations. The jewel is absolutely lovely, and the York Museum posits that it possibly was owned by Richard's mother - his name and not hers!
On Sep 12, 2014, at 5:47 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

Sorry Pamela, I meant to put the word Middleham' at the beginning, in between The' and jewel'. But it is in the subject line, so I remembered that much! <g> From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:35 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 12:03:34
SandraMachin
Oh, if only fingerprints lasted , like DNA and so on! <g> Proud Cis might have been wearing it when it was lost, and hers might have been the last fingers to touch it. Well, not now, of course, because the world and his ferret have touched it. But it's nice to think science had progressed that much, and when the jewel was discovered, enough was known for people to only handle it with gloves until it got to the relevant lab. Oh, I'm romancing again, so ignore me... Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:52 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

I just found photos and explanations. The jewel is absolutely lovely, and the York Museum posits that it possibly was owned by Richard's mother - his name and not hers!
On Sep 12, 2014, at 5:47 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

Sorry Pamela, I meant to put the word Middleham' at the beginning, in between The' and jewel'. But it is in the subject line, so I remembered that much! <g> From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:35 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-12 12:18:40
Pamela Bain
Never......but I agree. How wonderful to think it was Cecily's.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 6:03 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

Oh, if only fingerprints lasted , like DNA and so on! <g> Proud Cis might have been wearing it when it was lost, and hers might have been the last fingers to touch it. Well, not now, of course, because the world and his ferret have touched it. But it's nice to think science had progressed that much, and when the jewel was discovered, enough was known for people to only handle it with gloves until it got to the relevant lab. Oh, I'm romancing again, so ignore me... Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:52 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

I just found photos and explanations. The jewel is absolutely lovely, and the York Museum posits that it possibly was owned by Richard's mother - his name and not hers!
On Sep 12, 2014, at 5:47 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

Sorry Pamela, I meant to put the word Middleham' at the beginning, in between The' and jewel'. But it is in the subject line, so I remembered that much! <g> From: mailto: Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 11:35 AM To: mailto: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel What jewel???? Sorry for the very stupid question.
On Sep 12, 2014, at 2:30 AM, "'SandraMachin' sandramachin@... []" <> wrote:

The jewel is worth £2.5 million, it seems. If it could be properly linked direct to Richard, just think how much its value would increase. Anyway, I digress, for this post is to tell you about a forthcoming talk about the jewel, on 25th September at Pocklington. http://www.pocklingtonpost.co.uk/news/local/talk-about-2-5million-jewel-at-meeting-1-6834578 Should be very interesting for anyone able to get there. Sandra =^..^=

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-13 14:01:59
mariewalsh2003

I'm not sure why the York Museum would think Cecily had owned it given that she is not known to have visited Middleham at all during her adult life. The only reason I can think is that the Middleham Jewel is what is known as an Agnus Dei, and Cecily left an Agnus Dei in her will. But this can't have been the same one because whoever owned this one lost it! It might, of course, have been owned by Richard's mother-in-law Anne Beauchamp, or even by Anne herself.

There was a lecture on the subject by a man from the York Museum at the Society's 2013 Study Weekend - absolutely fascinating but unfortunately I didn't take any notes. I'm trying to recall why they think (if indeed they do still think) that it might have been owned by a woman - something to do with protection in childbirth, perhaps? Anyway, the jewel has a picture of the Nativity incised in it so that might be it. It's certainly not to do with the A at the end of ANANIZAPTA - this was a popular charm word and doesn't change with the user's sex any more than Abracadabra does.

It is an amazing object - pendant size but with incredible detail. Apparently one of the finest bits of late medieval craftsmanship ever found. It opens up, so appears to be a reliquary. Inside they found some soil or dust, which they think must have been placed there deliberately as the seal is so good it couldn't have just got there from the jewel having been lying in/on the ground for a mere 500 years. The guy said they were planning to get the stuff analysed in the hope they could work out where it came from.

The person who handed it in claimed to have found it just lying by a path running between Middleham and Jervaulx so if this is really true it was lost by someone of very high status travelling between the castle and the abbey. Possibly it belonged to the Abbot, but anyway certainly someone with a lot of money.

There are illustrated articles on the jewel in the Barton Papers Library, if anyone's interested.

Marie

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-13 15:31:50
pansydobersby
Marie wrote:"It's certainly not to do with the A at the end of ANANIZAPTA - this was a popular charm word and doesn't change with the user's sex any more than Abracadabra does."

I know ananizapta/ananyzapta was, in itself, a popular magic word: it was carved on the gates of some German cities, for instance. But a 14th-century manuscript text in English specifies it as a cure for epilepsy, and says it should be whispered in the ear of the afflicted person, as 'ananizaptus' if the person is male, and as 'ananizapta' if the person is female.*
(Which is not to say that anyone at Middleham need have suffered from epilepsy, as the word was also used as a general protection against mortal illnesses, poison, black magic, etc.)
Pansy
*) The quotation: 'For þe fallyng ewell. Sey þis word 'ananizaptus' in hys ere, qhwan he is fallyn doun in þat ewyll, and also in a wommannys ere 'ananizapta', and þei schall neuere more aftir fele þat ewyll.'

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-13 16:04:45
mariewalsh2003

Pansy wrote:

"The quotation: 'For þe fallyng ewell. Sey þis word 'ananizaptus' in hys ere, qhwan he is fallyn doun in þat ewyll, and also in a wommannys ere 'ananizapta', and þei schall neuere more aftir fele þat ewyll.' "


Marie:

That's very interesting - at least someone thought it ought to work like Latin. But I've never seen ANANIZAPTUS so I have my doubts that it was widely used in that way and another explanation given in an old text is that it was an acrostic of a charm against poison ending in Amen. I suspect it may have derived from Arabic.


Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-13 16:31:21
pansydobersby
Yes, it's such a fascinating word, isn't it!
The form 'ananizaptus' also appears in a 10th/11th-century Anglo-Saxon manuscript (Harley MS 585), so in either version, it's a very old charm. I wonder if by the 15th century anyone even knew what exactly it meant&
Pansy

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-13 22:24:33
ricard1an
Wasn't there a topic on here ages ago about Anne Beauchamp possibly being the owner of the Middleham Jewel. Not sure about this but was there some story about her being a bit of a spendthrift and Richard having to pay some off her debts and that some of these debts having been incurred by purchasing a jewel? My memory is not very good but I seem to recall a topic on the subject though obviously not all the details.
Mary

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 00:12:54
mariewalsh2003

Mary wrote:

"Wasn't there a topic on here ages ago about Anne Beauchamp possibly being the owner of the Middleham Jewel. Not sure about this but was there some story about her being a bit of a spendthrift and Richard having to pay some off her debts and that some of these debts having been incurred by purchasing a jewel? My memory is not very good but I seem to recall a topic on the subject though obviously not all the details."


Marie:

There was indeed. Tony Pollard claimed to have seen a letter (since lost) written to Sir Richard Clairvaux of Noth Yorks by a servant of his who was with Gloucester, saying that Richard was not pleased about a "great tablet" which the Countess had commissioned. Pollard suggested this was the Middleham Jewel.

I'm personally not convinced it was the Middleham Jewel. As far as I can tell, the term 'tablet' referred to an icon for use on altars, etc. And this tablet was "great" - i.e. big.

Myers published the accounts for the New Year gifts given by Margaret of Anjou in 1453, and these include tablets and Agnus Dei, the tablets costing two or three times as much as the Agnus Deis, which for me confirms that a tablet and an Agnus Dei were completely different things. The Middleham Jewel is certainly an Agnus Dei.

But I think there's still a good chance that the jewel belonged to the Countess. If it did, then she certainly does seem to have been a big spender.

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 07:30:20
SandraMachin
That strikes a chord of some sort with me too, Mary, but that's it. A chord. Any details elude me. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2014 10:24 PM To: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

Wasn't there a topic on here ages ago about Anne Beauchamp possibly being the owner of the Middleham Jewel. Not sure about this but was there some story about her being a bit of a spendthrift and Richard having to pay some off her debts and that some of these debts having been incurred by purchasing a jewel? My memory is not very good but I seem to recall a topic on the subject though obviously not all the details. Mary

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 15:37:57
Why do those interesting letters always get lost after reading!
So Anne Beauchamp, who allegedly had no money of her own, happily made debts in Richard's name.
Or was she not as poor as we are made to believe? I would like to know what others on this forum think about
this. There is another thing about Anne B. that keeps me wondering: In the introduction to The Beauchamp Pageant it is maintained that Anne B. is the most likely commissioner of the work. For me this seems unlikely
if she really was so short of money. Could not Anne Neville have commissioned the book as a gift to her mother, as it is an homage to her father Richard B?
Eva

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 18:34:49
Alexandra Sinclair, the editor of Beauchamp Pageant suggests that it is 'highly likely' that the Pageant was 'intended for the edification and entertainment of Edward of Middleham '..and his death in 1484 would explain why it was never finished...And yes, she thinks that it was Edward's grandmother Anne Beauchamp who commissioned it. Anne Beauchamp certainly seems as if she knew how to spend money alright...I would love to have her 'budget'. . is it possible that Anne Neville had a hand in it too though. If AB was staying at Middleham at the time it's quite possible.

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 18:37:47
SandraMachin
Poor Richard, his purse strings didn't stand a chance. From: mailto: Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:34 PM To: Subject: Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

Alexandra Sinclair, the editor of Beauchamp Pageant suggests that it is 'highly likely' that the Pageant was 'intended for the edification and entertainment of Edward of Middleham '..and his death in 1484 would explain why it was never finished...And yes, she thinks that it was Edward's grandmother Anne Beauchamp who commissioned it. Anne Beauchamp certainly seems as if she knew how to spend money alright...I would love to have her 'budget'. . is it possible that Anne Neville had a hand in it too though. If AB was staying at Middleham at the time it's quite possible.

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-14 20:06:18
Speculating much here but I wonder if Richard was a soft touch where women were concerned. Take the fuss over the dresses that Anne and EoY wore over the Christmas period ..maybe he was just merely being generous..but wait,,,no,,,it was because he was hoping Anne would pop her clogs and he could then marry his niece. What a shame his and Anne's privy purse expenses no longer exist...presumably...because it would be interesting to see which of them paid for the fabric of these dresses a few weeks before Christmas. Either way a lovely gift has been twisted into something quite nasty...Eileen

Re: A talk on the Middleham Jewel

2014-09-15 00:35:13
maroonnavywhite
I wonder, if the Jewel was intended for a woman and was a charm or Agnus Dei against ills in general and "falling evil" in particular, if the Countess was having a really rough menopause and/or hypertension issues?
I can see how hypertension-related fainting spells (or hot-flash-related dizziness) might be construed as "falling sickness" of a sort.
Tamara (who herself is enjoying her menopause as she hasn't had a cold since it started - the viruses apparently are getting torched by my hot flashes)
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