Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
He would certainly have heard them (if they existed) after his wardship transferred to Jasper Tudor, who according to the article was the patron of at least yhirty-five Welsh bards, including Dafydd Llywd. it seems odd to me that Jasper would be patronizing Welsh bards who held this view while Henry VI was still alive, or even that they would hold it themselves before 1471. However, once Edward of Lancaster and his inept father were dead, I can certainly see Jasper promoting both the bards and their prophecies (ignoring his nephew's Beaufort and Valois descent and emphasizing his "Welshness," a point which seems to argue against Edmund Tudor's father being Edmund Beaufort. Jasper certainly regarded *himself* as Welsh!).
If the author is correct, it's not surprising that Rhys ap Thomas betrayed Richard III (though I think Henry's offer of a reward if Rhys let him enter Wales and joined in the battle against the English "tyrant") was a more important factor. It may, however, explain why Henry could move unmolested through north Wales (as opposed to the part controlled by Richard's son-in-law, Walter Herbert, Earl of Huntington).
As for whether Henry *deserved* to be considered the Son of Prophecy, I think the author's conclusion that he didn't is indisputable.
You can read the article (which does mention Richard III's genealogical qualifications as an alternate candidate and says nothing bad about him) here:
http://thehistorystudent.weebly.com/medieval/does-henry-vii-deserve-to-be-considered-the-son-of-prophecy
Carol
Re: Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
Hi Carol,
I think we looked at this or some similar idea once before. There's no doubt that in 1485 Henry was portrayed in Wales as the Son of Prophecy and also Owen the Deliverer (on the pretext that he'd nearly been christened Owen), another version of the same looked-for saviour. What seemed to be the case is that the stories of his having been recognised as such from infancy were later propaganda. The Yorkists used the same propaganda in support of their own royal claim as they were descended from Llewelyn the Great. Yes, Jasper Tudor patronised Welsh bards, and I bet he was the man behind this campaign to recognise his nephew as the Son of Prophecy. But the Herberts also had their bardic eulogists, and even Richard Duke of York patronised bards in his day. It is ironic I think - sad anyway - that the Tudors won the throne because Jasper had persuaded so many in his areas of influence in Wales that Henry would deliver them from oppression.
Marie
Re: Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
Marie wrote :
"Hi Carol, I think we looked at this or some similar idea once before. There's no doubt that in 1485 Henry was portrayed in Wales as the Son of Prophecy and also Owen the Deliverer (on the pretext that he'd nearly been christened Owen), another version of the same looked-for saviour. What seemed to be the case is that the stories of his having been recognised as such from infancy were later propaganda. The Yorkists used the same propaganda in support of their own royal claim as they were descended from Llewelyn the Great. Yes, Jasper Tudor patronised Welsh bards, and I bet he was the man behind this campaign to recognise his nephew as the Son of Prophecy. But the Herberts also had their bardic eulogists, and even Richard Duke of York patronised bards in his day. It is ironic I think - sad anyway - that the Tudors won the throne because Jasper had persuaded so many in his areas of influence in Wales that Henry would deliver them from oppression."
Carol responds.
Hi, Marie. I don't recall having this particular discussion before. Maybe it was one I didn't participate in. Good to know that Henry having been recognized as the "Son of Prophecy" since infancy is later propaganda (as the author of the article clearly doesn't realize). I'd hate to think of Jasper Tudor secretly promoting his infant nephew's imaginary claim over that of King Henry VI, his half-brother! And his patronizing thirty-five bards as an exile in Brittany and later France also struck me as suspicious. And can you imagine a nurse (mentioned in the article) or a bard in the home of the Herberts whispering to the little ward, Henry Tudor, that he, not William Herbert (or Edward IV, to whom Herbert was loyal and who also could claim the title is he so chose) was the *real* "Son of Prophecy"?
I think you're right that the propaganda came into play only after Henry had claimed the throne (as the "son" of Henry VI, a point he wouldn't have mentioned to the Welsh). It does seem that only a few of the Welsh (too many, from Richard's perspective) believed the claim. And, yes, indeed, it's a sad irony that Jasper convinced the Welsh (or some of them, anyway), that the half-English Henry would save them from English oppression! Sadly, it didn't turn out that way. They'd have been better off staying with Richard. Oppression under Richard? What oppression?
Carol
Re: Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
From: "justcarol67@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 17 November 2014, 21:34
Subject: Re: Jasper Tudor, master propagandist?
Marie wrote :
"Hi Carol, I think we looked at this or some similar idea once before. There's no doubt that in 1485 Henry was portrayed in Wales as the Son of Prophecy and also Owen the Deliverer (on the pretext that he'd nearly been christened Owen), another version of the same looked-for saviour. What seemed to be the case is that the stories of his having been recognised as such from infancy were later propaganda. The Yorkists used the same propaganda in support of their own royal claim as they were descended from Llewelyn the Great. Yes, Jasper Tudor patronised Welsh bards, and I bet he was the man behind this campaign to recognise his nephew as the Son of Prophecy. But the Herberts also had their bardic eulogists, and even Richard Duke of York patronised bards in his day. It is ironic I think - sad anyway - that the Tudors won the throne because Jasper had persuaded so many in his areas of influence in Wales that Henry would deliver them from oppression."
Carol responds.
Hi, Marie. I don't recall having this particular discussion before. Maybe it was one I didn't participate in. Good to know that Henry having been recognized as the "Son of Prophecy" since infancy is later propaganda (as the author of the article clearly doesn't realize). I'd hate to think of Jasper Tudor secretly promoting his infant nephew's imaginary claim over that of King Henry VI, his half-brother! And his patronizing thirty-five bards as an exile in Brittany and later France also struck me as suspicious. And can you imagine a nurse (mentioned in the article) or a bard in the home of the Herberts whispering to the little ward, Henry Tudor, that he, not William Herbert (or Edward IV, to whom Herbert was loyal and who also could claim the title is he so chose) was the *real* "Son of Prophecy"?
I think you're right that the propaganda came into play only after Henry had claimed the throne (as the "son" of Henry VI, a point he wouldn't have mentioned to the Welsh). It does seem that only a few of the Welsh (too many, from Richard's perspective) believed the claim. And, yes, indeed, it's a sad irony that Jasper convinced the Welsh (or some of them, anyway), that the half-English Henry would save them from English oppression! Sadly, it didn't turn out that way. They'd have been better off staying with Richard. Oppression under Richard? What oppression?
Carol
