How tall was Queen Anne Neville?

I've just been looking at Graham Turner's painting,
Investiture in York, which is very impressive. You
can see it at:

http://www.studio88.co.uk/

I noticed that Richard is taller than Anne.

But if my understanding is correct, Anne and Elizabeth
of York were close in size, and Elizabeth was about
5'9''.

So wouldn't Anne have been taller than Richard?

Does anyone know?

Marion




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I've just been looking at Graham Turner's painting,
Investiture in York, which is very impressive. You
can see it at:

http://www.studio88.co.uk/

I noticed that Richard is taller than Anne.

But if my understanding is correct, Anne and Elizabeth
of York were close in size, and Elizabeth was about
5'9''.

So wouldn't Anne have been taller than Richard?

Does anyone know?

Marion




__________________________________
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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
www.yahoo.com

We don't know how tall Richard or Anne were.

Edward IV's skeleton was measured when his tomb was opened and he came out at 6ft 3 or slightly more.

The skeleton in the tomb attributed to Clarence in Tewkesbury Abbey is only about 5ft 5 but there is no certainty that this is actually Clarence's, since there has been a fair amount of moving bodies about in the Tewkesbury crypt.

No direct evidence of Richard's height, except that the Bohemian emissary Nikolas von Poppelen said that Richard was taller than himself, though there is other evidence that Poppelen was unusually short.

As for Anne, the evidence that she and Elizabeth of York were about the same size is the tale in Crowland that Anne gave Elizabeth a dress which Elizabeth wore at the Christmas festivities in 1484. However, a note of caution - it's not impossible that a dress given by one person to another would be altered so that it fitted the recipient properly. When I was in the Territorial Army a few years ago, 'Number 2s' - the jacket and trousers/skirt uniform worn for formal occasions - were not provided new, but handed down from those who had left the unit, and altered as necesary. (Only officers got theirs new, and they were made to measure - paid for by the individual.)

Ann
The suggestion that

marion davis <phaecilia@...> wrote:
I've just been looking at Graham Turner's painting,
Investiture in York, which is very impressive. You
can see it at:

http://www.studio88.co.uk/

I noticed that Richard is taller than Anne.

But if my understanding is correct, Anne and Elizabeth
of York were close in size, and Elizabeth was about
5'9''.

So wouldn't Anne have been taller than Richard?

Does anyone know?

Marion




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Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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In a message dated 11/15/2004 8:51:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
A.Lyon1@... writes:


As for Anne, the evidence that she and Elizabeth of York were about the same
size is the tale in Crowland that Anne gave Elizabeth a dress which
Elizabeth wore at the Christmas festivities in 1484. However, a note of caution -
it's not impossible that a dress given by one person to another would be altered
so that it fitted the recipient properly. When I was in the Territorial Army
a few years ago, 'Number 2s' - the jacket and trousers/skirt uniform worn
for formal occasions - were not provided new, but handed down from those who
had left the unit, and altered as necesary. (Only officers got theirs new, and
they were made to measure - paid for by the individual.)







Besides this, since dresses were long enough to drag along the floor anyway,
it probably didn't matter much if 4 inches vs. 6 inches were dragged around,
so using dresses as an indication of height would not be reliable.

LML,
Pam

I think it's true to say no one knows how tall Anne was; hers is one of the few royal skeletons that no-one has ever exhumed and studied - surprisingly, perhaps. Since the "glory years" for doing this were circa 150-200 years ago, the chances are it won't happen now.

I have seen a figure as great as 5' 11" and a half given for Elizabeth of York's height. This seems incredible but both her father and her son were well over 6 feet, and Mary Queen of Scots, her great-grandaughter was said to be 6 feet tall as well. I presume that at some point Elizabeth's skeleton has been measured, and even if you assume the calculated height to be exaggerated she must still have been a tall lady. Pam's point about the excessive length, (and vast surplus of material) in medieval dresses is well made; however I suspect someone as exceptionally tall as that would still look a bit odd in an outfit for someone who was say, 5' 1". This suggests Anne may at least have been above average height.

There is a "tradition" that the Nevilles were tall, but I am not sure on what evidence. Cecily Neville's remains were exhumed in the 16th century (when they found her clutching her pardon from Rome) but I'm not aware that they measured her. Does anyone know where this belief comes from?

Regards
Brian

--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
> We don't know how tall Richard or Anne were.
>
> Edward IV's skeleton was measured when his tomb was opened and he
came out at 6ft 3 or slightly more.
>
> The skeleton in the tomb attributed to Clarence in Tewkesbury
Abbey is only about 5ft 5 but there is no certainty that this is
actually Clarence's, since there has been a fair amount of moving
bodies about in the Tewkesbury crypt.
>
> No direct evidence of Richard's height, except that the Bohemian
emissary Nikolas von Poppelen said that Richard was taller than
himself, though there is other evidence that Poppelen was unusually
short.
>
> As for Anne, the evidence that she and Elizabeth of York were
about the same size is the tale in Crowland that Anne gave Elizabeth
a dress which Elizabeth wore at the Christmas festivities in 1484.
However, a note of caution - it's not impossible that a dress given
by one person to another would be altered so that it fitted the
recipient properly. When I was in the Territorial Army a few years
ago, 'Number 2s' - the jacket and trousers/skirt uniform worn for
formal occasions - were not provided new, but handed down from those
who had left the unit, and altered as necesary. (Only officers got
theirs new, and they were made to measure - paid for by the
individual.)
>
I agree - we know that such gowns were altered (though I can't
remember where I know that from!), though while one can be cut down
for smaller person it's hard to do the opposite and the only
solution is to add a border I suppose. I have always had the
impression that Elizabeth at 5ft 11 was unusually tall for a woman.
Brunhild

I agree - we know that such gowns were altered (though I can't remember where I know that from!), though while one can be cut down for smaller person it's hard to do the opposite and the only solution is to add a border I suppose. I have always had the impression that Elizabeth at 5ft 11 was unusually tall for a woman.

Brunhild

===================================

If true, and if Henry Tudor was only moderate height, as I understand it, it must have been quite a sight to see Elizabeth of York and her husband together.

Going geographically OT again, as I often do for purposes of comparison, according to my "Hispanic Costume" book, Isabel was in the habit of giving away her old clothes, and trained her children to do the same, reading a quiet riot act to son Juan when he was reluctant to do so. According to Townsend Miller, in "Castles and the Crown", Isabel sewed all of Fernando's shirts, and he refused to wear any others, though he complained that the frugal Isabel replaced the sleeves too often.

During the last phase of the War on Granada, the Moors set the Castilian camp on fire. Isabel managed to save her despatch case, but lost all the clothing except what she was actually wearing. A local duchess (I forget who) lent the queen her own clothes, and Isabel accepted them, with the compliment that they were better than her own.

Maria
elena@...

--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
> We don't know how tall Richard or Anne were.
>
No direct evidence of Richard's height, except that the Bohemian
emissary Nikolas von Poppelen said that Richard was taller than
himself, though there is other evidence that Poppelen was unusually
short.
>
Something else to consider...in the Middle Ages there was the
conventional attitude that outward appearance reflected inner
character. Bad people were ugly and deformed, like their souls and
minds. Also tall was better than short, and fair was better than
dark. Any wonder that the Tudor hacks depicted Richard as short and
deformed, and he got more so with each retelling of their propaganda?

Katy

This is true, although most of what I've read puts Richard at about 5'8"- short, but not unusually so. He was certainly the smallest in his family- and notice that he also didn't share his siblings' coloring. Interesting.

oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
> We don't know how tall Richard or Anne were.
>
No direct evidence of Richard's height, except that the Bohemian
emissary Nikolas von Poppelen said that Richard was taller than
himself, though there is other evidence that Poppelen was unusually
short.
>
Something else to consider...in the Middle Ages there was the
conventional attitude that outward appearance reflected inner
character. Bad people were ugly and deformed, like their souls and
minds. Also tall was better than short, and fair was better than
dark. Any wonder that the Tudor hacks depicted Richard as short and
deformed, and he got more so with each retelling of their propaganda?

Katy




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--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
> We don't know how tall Richard or Anne were.
>
> Edward IV's skeleton was measured when his tomb was opened and he
came out at 6ft 3 or slightly more.
>
> The skeleton in the tomb attributed to Clarence in Tewkesbury Abbey
is only about 5ft 5 but there is no certainty that this is actually
Clarence's, since there has been a fair amount of moving bodies about
in the Tewkesbury crypt.
>
> No direct evidence of Richard's height, except that the Bohemian
emissary Nikolas von Poppelen said that Richard was taller than
himself, though there is other evidence that Poppelen was unusually
short.
>
> As for Anne, the evidence that she and Elizabeth of York were about
the same size is the tale in Crowland that Anne gave Elizabeth a
dress which Elizabeth wore at the Christmas festivities in 1484.
However, a note of caution - it's not impossible that a dress given
by one person to another would be altered so that it fitted the
recipient properly. When I was in the Territorial Army a few years
ago, 'Number 2s' - the jacket and trousers/skirt uniform worn for
formal occasions - were not provided new, but handed down from those
who had left the unit, and altered as necesary. (Only officers got
theirs new, and they were made to measure - paid for by the
individual.)
>
> Ann

Indeed, though the styles were changing, the "Yorkist period" gown
was based on its being totally one-size-fits-all. The high waist was
only the effect of the belt. they were actually big loose things with
the neck opening almost down to the waist, and were made extremely
long, to be hitched up, so it didn't matter what height the wearer
was. People left their gowns in their wills, and not always to folk
of the same sex as themselves either.
By 1484/5 probably there was a fitted waist, but even this would have
been adaptable to some extent, with lacings for fastenings, and still
the same over-egged length.
Marie

PS. The extra length, so I'm told, incredibly useful for keeping warm
when sitting in the winter. You could really wrap your feet up.

PPS. I think also the passage from Crowland is ambivalent anyway. It
could either mean they swapped clothes because they themselves were
of similar size and complexion, or that they wore clothes of similar
cut and colour. Personally I reckon far too much has been made of
this passage as evidence of Anne Neville's appearance. I know there's
no other evidence, but that's tough (ain't it?).

PPPS. I don't know the evidence for Elizabeth of York's height. Could
anybody please tell me?

> The suggestion that
>
> marion davis <phaecilia@y...> wrote:
> I've just been looking at Graham Turner's painting,
> Investiture in York, which is very impressive. You
> can see it at:
>
> http://www.studio88.co.uk/
>
> I noticed that Richard is taller than Anne.
>
> But if my understanding is correct, Anne and Elizabeth
> of York were close in size, and Elizabeth was about
> 5'9''.
>
> So wouldn't Anne have been taller than Richard?
>
> Does anyone know?
>
> Marion
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
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> Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page.
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>
>
>
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>
>
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>
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>
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
>

On Nov 16, 2004, at 20:18, Megan Lerseth wrote:

> although most of what I've read puts Richard at about 5'8"- short, but
> not unusually so. He was certainly the smallest in his family- and
> notice that he also didn't share his siblings' coloring.
Well actually there is no proof of this anywhere. Descriptions of
Richard are frustratingly missing.
As for his colouring, if one looks at the portrait of Edward IV he
looks far from yellow haired, so one cannot go by portraiture either to
indicate colouring.
Paul
you're never too old to launch your dreams

>
> PS. The extra length, so I'm told, incredibly useful for keeping
warm
> when sitting in the winter. You could really wrap your feet up.
>
> PPS. I think also the passage from Crowland is ambivalent anyway.
It
> could either mean they swapped clothes because they themselves
were
> of similar size and complexion, or that they wore clothes of
similar
> cut and colour. Personally I reckon far too much has been made of
> this passage as evidence of Anne Neville's appearance. I know
there's
> no other evidence, but that's tough (ain't it?).
>

It could also mean they simply had gowns made from the same fabric
as this was fairly common and rich ladies bought the fabric to make
up rather than buying a ready made dress. Whilst they may buy only
as much fabric as it would take to make the dress there is no reason
why theu could not buy more with a view to matching robes for
others. It's still done today.
B

I had always understood that while Richard took after his father Edward and Clarence took after their Neville ancestors. My uncle is 5' 10" but seems short next to his bothers one of whom is 6'4". I would say he was short compared to Edward who was huge by the standards of the time----- Original Message -----
From: brunhild613
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?




>
> PS. The extra length, so I'm told, incredibly useful for keeping
warm
> when sitting in the winter. You could really wrap your feet up.
>
> PPS. I think also the passage from Crowland is ambivalent anyway.
It
> could either mean they swapped clothes because they themselves
were
> of similar size and complexion, or that they wore clothes of
similar
> cut and colour. Personally I reckon far too much has been made of
> this passage as evidence of Anne Neville's appearance. I know
there's
> no other evidence, but that's tough (ain't it?).
>

It could also mean they simply had gowns made from the same fabric
as this was fairly common and rich ladies bought the fabric to make
up rather than buying a ready made dress. Whilst they may buy only
as much fabric as it would take to make the dress there is no reason
why theu could not buy more with a view to matching robes for
others. It's still done today.
B




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> although most of what I've read puts Richard at about 5'8"- short, but <BR>
> not unusually so.


As for his colouring, if one looks at the portrait of Edward IV he <BR>
looks far from yellow haired, so one cannot go by portraiture either to <BR>
indicate colouring.<BR>
Paul<BR>
============================

Agree about the coloring. As for relative size, there's always this tidbit from Scottish ambassador Archibald Whitelaw, in 1484, about Richard:

"Never has so much spirit or greater virtue reigned in such a small body"

Which implies that Richard was on the short side.

Maria
elena@...

Or, to cite Jones' Hypothesis, Richard took after his father and Edward took after his, perhaps?
----- Original Message -----
From: Coral Nelson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?



I had always understood that while Richard took after his father Edward and Clarence took after their Neville ancestors. My uncle is 5' 10" but seems short next to his bothers one of whom is 6'4". I would say he was short compared to Edward who was huge by the standards of the time----- Original Message -----
From: brunhild613
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?




>
> PS. The extra length, so I'm told, incredibly useful for keeping
warm
> when sitting in the winter. You could really wrap your feet up.
>
> PPS. I think also the passage from Crowland is ambivalent anyway.
It
> could either mean they swapped clothes because they themselves
were
> of similar size and complexion, or that they wore clothes of
similar
> cut and colour. Personally I reckon far too much has been made of
> this passage as evidence of Anne Neville's appearance. I know
there's
> no other evidence, but that's tough (ain't it?).
>

It could also mean they simply had gowns made from the same fabric
as this was fairly common and rich ladies bought the fabric to make
up rather than buying a ready made dress. Whilst they may buy only
as much fabric as it would take to make the dress there is no reason
why theu could not buy more with a view to matching robes for
others. It's still done today.
B




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--- In , "Coral Nelson"
<coral.nelson@b...> wrote:
>
> I had always understood that while Richard took after his father
Edward and Clarence took after their Neville ancestors. My uncle is
5' 10" but seems short next to his bothers one of whom is 6'4". I
would say he was short compared to Edward who was huge by the
standards of the time

Exactly...if Richard was said to be short, the question can be "In
comparison to whom?" As you said, at least one of his brothers --
Edward -- was 6' 3" or more.

But I wouldn't say Edward was exactly huge by the standards of the
time. Men over six feet tall seem to have been common, even the
norm, in the upper classes in our favorite era. It was later on, in
Tudor times, during the era of the Enclosure Acts that drove many
rural families off their tenant farms, and especially during the
early part of the Industrial Revolution, that the general populace
began to have a poorer diet, live in far more crowded and unsanitary
conditions, and have poorer health, all of which was reflected in
shorter stature.

Katy

Shame on you Stephen, I did laugh tho!!
----- Original Message -----
From: Stephen Lark
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?


Or, to cite Jones' Hypothesis, Richard took after his father and Edward took after his, perhaps?
----- Original Message -----
From: Coral Nelson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?



I had always understood that while Richard took after his father Edward and Clarence took after their Neville ancestors. My uncle is 5' 10" but seems short next to his bothers one of whom is 6'4". I would say he was short compared to Edward who was huge by the standards of the time----- Original Message -----
From: brunhild613
To:
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: How tall was Queen Anne Neville?




>
> PS. The extra length, so I'm told, incredibly useful for keeping
warm
> when sitting in the winter. You could really wrap your feet up.
>
> PPS. I think also the passage from Crowland is ambivalent anyway.
It
> could either mean they swapped clothes because they themselves
were
> of similar size and complexion, or that they wore clothes of
similar
> cut and colour. Personally I reckon far too much has been made of
> this passage as evidence of Anne Neville's appearance. I know
there's
> no other evidence, but that's tough (ain't it?).
>

It could also mean they simply had gowns made from the same fabric
as this was fairly common and rich ladies bought the fabric to make
up rather than buying a ready made dress. Whilst they may buy only
as much fabric as it would take to make the dress there is no reason
why theu could not buy more with a view to matching robes for
others. It's still done today.
B




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