Birth

Here we go again!
Richard's birth in the BBC book "The Full Story" was later described by
his mother, yes his mother, as "encumberous" and we are told she wrote
was "to me full painful and uneasy" causing, she noted, "an infirmity
not hid on my wretched body".
Of course, no source is mentioned for this new found diary of Cecily
Neville!
In all my years of study and reading about Richard, even in the most
vilifying writings about him have I ever heard of mention of any
writings by Cecily about the birth of Richard, or any of her children.
The only mention of Richard's birth is the famous "Richard liveth yet".
Could someone perhaps enlighten me as to where this latest nonsense has
come from?
Why have I missed it for so many years?
Paul

It's Amy Licence, Paul. From her book entitled Cicely Neville.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vx78AwAAQBAJ&pg=PR85&lpg=PR85&dq=%22encumberous%22+%22to+me+full+painful+and+uneasy%22&source=bl&ots=MO9kxIXWU6&sig=2mbf5yNtYAU1eBPKBflhytnTCSs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qYn9VJLKGcz8UJ2KgcgL&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22encumberous%22%20%22to%20me%20full%20painful%20and%20uneasy%22&f=false
Sandra
=^..^=
From: mailto:
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 11:40 AM
To:
Subject: Birth
Here we go again!Richard's birth in the BBC book "The Full Story" was
later described by his mother, yes his mother, as "encumberous" and we are
told she wrote was "to me full painful and uneasy" causing, she noted, "an
infirmity not hid on my wretched body".Of course, no source is mentioned
for this new found diary of Cecily Neville!In all my years of study and
reading about Richard, even in the most vilifying writings about him have I
ever heard of mention of any writings by Cecily about the birth of Richard,
or any of her children. The only mention of Richard's birth is the famous
"Richard liveth yet".Could someone perhaps enlighten me as to where this
latest nonsense has come from?Why have I missed it for so many
years?Paul

Oh she found something nobody else has been aware of for 500 + years
eh?
Paul


On 09/03/2015 11:54, 'Sandra J Machin'
sandramachin@... [] wrote:
It's Amy Licence, Paul.  From her book entitled Cicely
Neville.  https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Vx78AwAAQBAJ&pg=PR85&lpg=PR85&dq=%22encumberous%22+%22to+me+full+painful+and+uneasy%22&source=bl&ots=MO9kxIXWU6&sig=2mbf5yNtYAU1eBPKBflhytnTCSs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=qYn9VJLKGcz8UJ2KgcgL&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22encumberous%22%20%22to%20me%20full%20painful%20and%20uneasy%22&f=false 
 
Sandra
=^..^=
 
From: mailto:
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 11:40 AM
To:
Subject: Birth
 
 
Here we go again!
Richard's birth in the BBC book "The Full Story" was
later described by
his mother, yes his mother, as "encumberous" and we are
told she wrote
was "to me full painful and uneasy" causing, she noted,
"an infirmity
not hid on my wretched body".
Of course, no source is mentioned for this new found
diary of Cecily
Neville!
In all my years of study and reading about Richard, even
in the most
vilifying writings about him have I ever heard of
mention of any
writings by Cecily about the birth of Richard, or any of
her children.
The only mention of Richard's birth is the famous
"Richard liveth yet".
Could someone perhaps enlighten me as to where this
latest nonsense has
come from?
Why have I missed it for so many years?
Paul

Oh, I suspect that is from the letter Cecily wrote to Margaret of Anjou in 1453 begging her to use her influence to get her husband restored to royal favour. She talked about her 'labour' in his cause and how ill the whole business had made her, and some professional historian who should have known better didn't read the thing properly, leapt on the word labour and decided Cecily was complaining about her last childbirth. This misinterpretation has been copied God knows how many times since.Surely said prof historian should have known that 'labour' was the verb used back then where we might now say 'lobby.'Marie

Marie wrote:"Oh, I suspect that is from the letter Cecily wrote to Margaret of Anjou in 1453 begging her to use her influence to get her husband restored to royal favour. She talked about her 'labour' in his cause and how ill the whole business had made her, and some professional historian who should have known better didn't read the thing properly, leapt on the word labour and decided Cecily was complaining about her last childbirth. This misinterpretation has been copied God knows how many times since.Surely said prof historian should have known that 'labour' was the verb used back then where we might now say 'lobby.'"Carol responds:You're undoubtedly right, Marie.Paul (and anyone else interested in this topic), the letter is in our Files (posted by Marie) under "Cecily's letter to Queen Margaret." In context, "labour" and "heavyness" and everything else that "historians" (among them Desmond Seward, IIRC) have interpreted to relate to Richard's birth really apply, as Marie has said, to Cecily's distress over her husband's undeserved estrangement from the queen (and, in consequence, the king). Possibly the juxtaposition of Cecily's good wishes for the birth of queen Margaret's child with her own "labours" for her husband have aided the misinterpretation. But, obviously, (as I think Marie stated in another post ages ago), Cecily would not be stupid enough (or tactless enough) to mention her own (supposedly) distressful labor to a woman about to face labor and childbirth for the first time, especially when that woman is a queen whose mercy she is seeking (for her husband's plight).It's another case of a document twisted to support Sir Thomas More, who implies that the birth was so difficult that it resulted in a Caesarean section (though that operation was so dangerous in those days that it was not performed unless the mother died in childbirth). The letter, once cited, becomes "proof" of the "difficult birth" depicted by More and implied by Rous--and is then incessantly repeated as fact by "historians" who don't check their sources carefully.Carol

If one is determined to write something against Richard all
professors mis-read. Of course the Duchess was talking about her
labour in the cause of her husband Richard. So easy to mistake as in
the birth of her son, isn't it? NOT!
And of course as we know, throw mud and some of it always sticks,
real mud or not!
I keep hoping we will one day be free of all this ill informed,
libellous crap people throw around about Richard! And that everyone
realises that Shakespeare is only a play!
Paul


On 09/03/2015 14:40, mariewalsh2003
wrote:
Oh, I suspect that is from the letter Cecily wrote to Margaret
of Anjou in 1453 begging her to use her influence to get her
husband restored to royal favour. She talked about her 'labour'
in his cause and how ill the whole business had made her, and
some professional historian who should have known better didn't
read the thing properly, leapt on the word labour and decided
Cecily was complaining about her last childbirth. This
misinterpretation has been copied God knows how many times
since.
Surely said prof historian should have known that 'labour' was
the verb used back then where we might now say 'lobby.'
Marie

ÿ
Wrote previous response before seeing Marie's
comments. Write the letter, anyway. Hope to meet some of you, soon.
N
----- Original Message -----
From:
mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, March 09, 2015 7:40
AM
Subject: Re:
Birth


Oh, I suspect that is from the letter Cecily wrote to Margaret of Anjou in
1453 begging her to use her influence to get her husband restored to royal
favour. She talked about her 'labour' in his cause and how ill the whole
business had made her, and some professional historian who should have known
better didn't read the thing properly, leapt on the word labour and decided
Cecily was complaining about her last childbirth. This misinterpretation has
been copied God knows how many times since.
Surely said prof historian should have known that 'labour' was the verb
used back then where we might now say 'lobby.'
Marie

(Can't resist) Creative Licence. (As if any woman
of the middle ages would describe the experience differently.) BBC
deserves a letter shaming them for printing fiction as a history source. Getting
ready for departure to Leicester. Don't have time to do it, myself, but if
someone wants to create a letter and get a few signatures, put my name on the
list.
Silly people.