Portrait of Anne?
Portrait of Anne?
I thought people here might be interested& I started a blog recently, intending to share some of my small historical discoveries etc. There's not much of that on the blog yet, but I *think* I may have come across a rather realistic picture of Anne that I've never seen mentioned anywhere as such. The link is:
Anne Neville's Portraits
Would be interesting to hear if anyone agrees with the potential identification.
Pansy (yes, Leena is actually my real name, but I've grown rather fond of the nickname 'Pansy' here&)
Re: Portrait of Anne?
I thought people here might be interested& I started a blog recently, intending to share some of my small historical discoveries etc. There's not much of that on the blog yet, but I *think* I may have come across a rather realistic picture of Anne that I've never seen mentioned anywhere as such. The link is:
Anne Neville's Portraits
Would be interesting to hear if anyone agrees with the potential identification.
Pansy (yes, Leena is actually my real name, but I've grown rather fond of the nickname 'Pansy' here&)
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Re: the third man - I'm thinking Buckingham is possible, but who knows for sure. (I mentioned in the post my guess that the woman standing behind Isabel might be Catherine Woodville, so if that were true, Buckingham might be a good bet for the corresponding man.) But Edward it isn't, as Edward is in the foreground of the picture with Elizabeth Woodville!
(I should probably be in bed now, as I'm leaving in six hours& NOOOOOO)
Pansy/Leena
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Thank you, Sandra! :) Re: the third man - I'm thinking Buckingham is possible, but who knows for sure. (I mentioned in the post my guess that the woman standing behind Isabel might be Catherine Woodville, so if that were true, Buckingham might be a good bet for the corresponding man.) But Edward it isn't, as Edward is in the foreground of the picture with Elizabeth Woodville! (I should probably be in bed now, as I'm leaving in six hours& NOOOOOO) Pansy/Leena
Re: Portrait of Anne?
On Mar 20, 2015, at 5:42 PM, 'Sandra J Machin' sandramachin@... [] <> wrote:
Have a great time. From: pansydobersby Sent: Friday, March 20, 2015 10:29 PM To: Subject: Re: Portrait of Anne?
Thank you, Sandra! :)
Re: the third man - I'm thinking Buckingham is possible, but who knows for sure. (I mentioned in the post my guess that the woman standing behind Isabel might be Catherine Woodville, so if that were true, Buckingham might be a good bet for the corresponding man.) But Edward it isn't, as Edward is in the foreground of the picture with Elizabeth Woodville! (I should probably be in bed now, as I'm leaving in six hours& NOOOOOO) Pansy/Leena
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Thank you, Sandra! :) Re: the third man - I'm thinking Buckingham is possible, but who knows for sure. (I mentioned in the post my guess that the woman standing behind Isabel might be Catherine Woodville, so if that were true, Buckingham might be a good bet for the corresponding man.) But Edward it isn't, as Edward is in the foreground of the picture with Elizabeth Woodville! (I should probably be in bed now, as I'm leaving in six hours& NOOOOOO) Pansy/Leena
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Your argument is reasonable Pansy, however, imho all ladies are too stylised and lookalike to derive an idea of "realism" whoever the lady was, which is a shame. Thought provoking? Yes. Helpful? I'm not sure.
Thanks for sharing anyhow. Mac
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Your argument is reasonable Pansy, however, imho all ladies are too stylised and lookalike to derive an idea of "realism" whoever the lady was, which is a shame. Thought provoking? Yes. Helpful? I'm not sure.
Thanks for sharing anyhow. Mac
Re: Portrait of Anne?
And to everyone who will be in Leicester, do have a wonderful time, I will be thinking of you all, watching it on TV, and looking forward to hearing your experiences.
.
JessFrom: pansydobersby
Sent: 20/03/2015 21:28
To:
Subject: Portrait of Anne?
I thought people here might be interested& I started a blog recently, intending to share some of my small historical discoveries etc. There's not much of that on the blog yet, but I *think* I may have come across a rather realistic picture of Anne that I've never seen mentioned anywhere as such. The link is:
Anne Neville's Portraits
Would be interesting to hear if anyone agrees with the potential identification.
Pansy (yes, Leena is actually my real name, but I've grown rather fond of the nickname 'Pansy' here&)
[The entire original message is not included.]
Re: Portrait of Anne?
From: "'Sandra J Machin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 21 March 2015, 15:48
Subject: Re: Re: Portrait of Anne?
The male likenesses that could be George, Richard and Buckingham (possibly, can't think who else number three would be) don't look stylised to me, but seem quite strong and definite. Especially Richard. That must be him in green, surely? It almost feels like him. But then, I want it to be, and so am drawn to that conclusion from the outset. The ladies seem more stylised, granted, but even so there are some features that could be from life'. The little chin, for instance. I know nothing is conclusive, but am fascinated by the whole question. However, I must confess to hoping more can be discovered about the three men. Sandra =^..^=
From: mailto: Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 3:24 PM To: Subject: Re: Portrait of Anne? Your argument is reasonable Pansy, however, imho all ladies are too stylised and lookalike to derive an idea of "realism" whoever the lady was, which is a shame. Thought provoking? Yes. Helpful? I'm not sure. Thanks for sharing anyhow. Mac
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Could the royal woman behind the queen be the sister Elizabeth Duchess of Suffolk, and the "third man" possibly be her husband the Duke of Suffolk standing with his brothers-in-law?
I also agree with Sandra that it really "feels" like the man in green could be Richard. Maybe it's partly because there's a hint of individuality about him--and, dare I say, intelligence. He seems to be actively looking, where most of the men surrounding him are instead just sort of passively gazing, if that makes any sense.
I look forward to reading more from your blog!
Cathy
---In , <[email protected]> wrote :
I thought people here might be interested& I started a blog recently, intending to share some of my small historical discoveries etc. There's not much of that on the blog yet, but I *think* I may have come across a rather realistic picture of Anne that I've never seen mentioned anywhere as such. The link is:
Anne Neville's Portraits http://thedragonhound.com/2015/03/20/anne-nevilles-portraits/
Would be interesting to hear if anyone agrees with the potential identification.
Pansy (yes, Leena is actually my real name, but I've grown rather fond of the nickname 'Pansy' here&)
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Hi all,
Sorry to be so late on this (as usual), but I've only just returned from Leicester (and that is another story).
My immediate question regarding identification of the people shown in the illustration, apart from the (to my eye) rather generic appearance, is , well, do we know whether Richard and Anne, Clarence or Buckingham actually joined the Guild? I know Edward IV and Queen Elizabeth did, as did Cecily, but I'm not sure about the other members of the royal family. These individuals are meant to represent Guild members at prayer, I imagine.
Best,
Marie
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Sandra, I thought of the same, re: the potential Richard's colouring. Though I'm not sure if that's a dark chestnut, exactly - the King and the 'possible Clarence' in the picture look considerably darker. 'Richard's' hair looks reddish brown to me. Who knows, his hair might have darkened into something like mine in adulthood: I was a blonde child and nowadays my hair varies from brown to red or golden light brown, depending on the lighting. If I look closely, there are still blond hairs on my head :)
Pansy
Re: Portrait of Anne?
If you look closely - enlarge the picture, which is unfortunately small as I couldn't get a bigger version - you will see that the ladies all have different face shapes and proportions, different noses, different mouths, even different eyes. They all wear the same blank, 'contemplative' expression on their faces, they're all dressed alike, and they all have the same fashionably plucked foreheads and eyebrows and the same pale colouring: I think that accounts for the uniform look, compared with the men who get to keep their hair and eyebrows and therefore seem to have more individual character. But the picture is made with great attention to detail, IMO, and the ladies all have individual faces.
'Realism' isn't necessarily the word to use to describe any manuscript illustrations, but what I meant with this being possibly a 'realistic' depiction of Anne is that it would certainly be more realistic than the others we have. The difference between images from, say, pre-1450 manuscripts and this one is huge. This picture is executed very much in the style of Flemish portraits of the time period; just in smaller format.
I actually believe the Rous Roll image might be the most accurate, as the drawings in it have been made with great skill, and the shape of Anne's face in it is very similar to that of her aunt Joan on the latter's effigy. But that's all the Rous Roll gives us: the shape and proportions of her face, with a small pouty mouth. We can't even see her nose properly.
Pansy
Re: Portrait of Anne?
- Cathy's suggestion that the 'third man' might be the Duke of Suffolk is a good one - especially as the man seems older. But wouldn't Buckingham have outranked Suffolk, even if Suffolk's wife outranked Buckingham's?
- I, too, agree with Sandra that the man in green 'feels' like Richard! And if you compare it with the NPG portrait, I think it looks like him as well. The resemblance is why I thought it might be him in the first place. Unfortunately I haven't got a clearer picture of the men yet, but if I do get one, I'll let you know asap.
- Hilary, I noticed the resemblance to Charles the Bold, too, but I don't think it could possibly be him& perhaps Clarence was just a bit bloated ;)
Two other things I wanted to mention:
- I'm especially interested in Anne's facial shape because there's a Flemish portrait I came across that I think *might* possibly be her. But I'm trying to find out about the provenance of the painting and it's really just speculation on my part. But my point is, there are lots of unidentified pictures out there; it's a good idea to look at them more closely, because you never know what might be found.
- I forgot to mention this post I wrote earlier about the Cloisters deck:Elizabeth Woodville and the Cloisters Deck: Popular Portraits of Royalty Elizabeth Woodville and the Cloisters Deck: Popular Port... Quite by an accident - as I seem to come across everything interesting nowadays - I found myself looking at pictures of old playing cards, and ran into the Flemish ... View on thedragonhound.com Preview by Yahoo
In case anyone's interested. I'm quite confident about those identifications, at least. (Well, apart from the Richard one, that's purely speculative ;))
Pansy
Re: Portrait of Anne?
I came across some texts where the lady behind Elizabeth Woodville is assumed to be Cecily, but I think she looks too young, and the coat of arms on her cape would imply otherwise.
Then again, who knows.
Pansy
Re: Portrait of Anne?
Hi Pansy,
My understanding is that QE and Cecily did join the Guild, which had been founded by Bishop Rotherham and his brother John of Someries, Luton. I've never heard it suggested that Richard and Anne, or Clarence and Isabel, were members. There is at least one book on the Guild available, and I'm sure it would elucidate this point, but I've never read that either Clarence or Richard were members, although I have a feeling Margaret Beaufort may have been.
At the same sort of time, Richard and Anne were joining the most prestigious guild in their part of the country, the York Corpus Christi Guild, and Clarence and Isabel were doing ditto with the Stratford Holy Cross Guild.
Marie
