No clothes for the coronation

No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-24 18:43:38
ggdentist

I read somewhere that Richard and Anne purchased no new clothes and Anne made no travel plans for the coronation of Edward V. The inference behind this was that Richard had never meant to have Edward crowned. Do any of you more knowledgeable types know any more about this?


Thanks Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-24 22:45:40
ggdentist

Maybe I should refrain from asking these questions till after the re-interment. However I'm just trying to inject a bit of objectivity into a week where I'm actually over-whelmed with emotion.


Many of the posts on here are just too touching for words. I may have to give up wearing mascara till Friday!


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 00:03:11
maroonnavywhite
Gillian, I don't know whether or not he'd ordered any new clothes for the occasion. In my view there was no burning need for Richard and Anne to order clothes for themselves (it's not like the richest duke in the kingdom didn't have any decent clothes lying around already, and furthermore they weren't the ones being crowned, their nephew was), so the question is moot.

There is an order extant for young Edward's coronation robes, and that's the key thing. It might well have been that Richard was trying to avoid upstaging his nephew. (In fact, one could argue -- and I'm sure many would -- that had Richard ordered clothes that were really fancy, it would be a sign of his intent to set himself up as king!)

Tamara


---In , <gillian.schifreen@...> wrote :

Maybe I should refrain from asking these questions till after the re-interment. However I'm just trying to inject a bit of objectivity into a week where I'm actually over-whelmed with emotion.


Many of the posts on here are just too touching for words. I may have to give up wearing mascara till Friday!


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 06:33:48
Sharon Feely
ÿ Couldn't agree more Gillian! I was denied leave from work this week so unable to attend anything in person, and it's probably just as well as I can't stop sobbing! I've had to record all the interment programmes as I'm just too emotional at the moment to even think about watching them, and reading the wonderful posts on here and the pictures on facebook are just adding to it! I'm wearing clothes of blue and murrey as respect all week, although nobody I work with are remotely interested in history and the significance is missed, but that isn't my point. It's my respect for Richard. Scarborough (where I live) has found a document showing that Richard was intending to make Scarborough a county in its own right and that is being displayed in the art gallery from Saturday until the end of the year, so I'm going along to see that at some point, It isn't usually on public display as it's so fragile. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: gillian.schifreen@... [] To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:30 PM Subject: Re: No clothes for the coronation

Maybe I should refrain from asking these questions till after the re-interment. However I'm just trying to inject a bit of objectivity into a week where I'm actually over-whelmed with emotion.


Many of the posts on here are just too touching for words. I may have to give up wearing mascara till Friday!


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 10:05:18
ggdentist

I know what you mean Sharon about being surrounded by the disinterested, my husband thinks I have a screw loose at the moment. I think it's very unreasonable not to allow you holiday. I'd think about a 'sickie' for tomorrow. It's a once in a lifetime event.


I'm not religious but hopefully Richard's spirit is hovering somewhere and is now realises just how many people genuinely care for him and his legacy. I wonder how many new members the society will have by the end of the month?


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 10:16:55
b.eileen25
Gillian...Anne Neville arrived in London on June 5th, bringing wafers with her for John Howard's wife.
That day Richard also left Baynard Castle, his mother's home, and moved into Crosby Place, his London Town house.
Eileen

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 11:27:55
ggdentist

Thanks Eileen, that sounds to me like they were preparing for the event. I think it was a TV documentary that I got the information from. I wonder if anyone remembers which one. Although having been very pro Richard for about 25 yrs it's only in recent months I've begun reading a lot more information on line. And I do like to read various opinions, not just those that I agree with. Consequently certain things do niggle. So many people on here have such a wealth of information, it's great to be able to tap into it.


Cheers Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 13:23:26
Pamela Bain
My husband also did not understand. But, he is now very, very interested. He has started at the beginning of the Plantagenet history, and is seeing why so many of us rail against the Tudors!



On Mar 25, 2015, at 5:05 AM, gillian.schifreen@... [] <> wrote:

I know what you mean Sharon about being surrounded by the disinterested, my husband thinks I have a screw loose at the moment. I think it's very unreasonable not to allow you holiday. I'd think about a 'sickie' for tomorrow. It's a once in a lifetime event.


I'm not religious but hopefully Richard's spirit is hovering somewhere and is now realises just how many people genuinely care for him and his legacy. I wonder how many new members the society will have by the end of the month?


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 13:42:13
b.eileen25
Gillian wrote..'I do like to read various opinions .....'
Yes you should...for example you should read the whole of Thomas More's history of Richard....and draw your own conclusions...mine were just how absurd it was...honestly it's completely daft..and this is where Starkey gets his 'facts' from...! Oh dearie me...
A good way to go is to read ..Richard lll The Great Debate..edited by Kendall..there you have More's History plus the opposite view from Horace Walpole ..God rest his soul...one of the first defenders of Richard...both ends of the pole and then you can make your mind up...
Eileen

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 13:46:11
Pamela Bain
If anyone is interested, my husband is reading "The a Third Horseman" about climate change and the impact upon Europe in the 14th Century.



On Mar 25, 2015, at 8:42 AM, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

Gillian wrote..'I do like to read various opinions .....'


Yes you should...for example you should read the whole of Thomas More's history of Richard....and draw your own conclusions...mine were just how absurd it was...honestly it's completely daft..and this is where Starkey gets his 'facts' from...! Oh dearie me...
A good way to go is to read ..Richard lll The Great Debate..edited by Kendall..there you have More's History plus the opposite view from Horace Walpole ..God rest his soul...one of the first defenders of Richard...both ends of the pole and then you can make your mind up...
Eileen

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 16:40:19
Doug Stamate
Gillian wrote:

I read somewhere that Richard and Anne purchased no new clothes and Anne made no travel plans for the coronation of Edward V. The inference behind this was that Richard had never meant to have Edward crowned. Do any of you more knowledgeable types know any more about this?

Doug here:

We know Anne didn't attend Edward's 22 June coronation because it was cancelled. How that became her never planning to attend because Richard intended to take the crown, I have no idea, but I think it's an example of Post hoc, ergo propter hoc: Anne would naturally be expected to attend her nephew's coronation. However, since Anne didn't accompany Richard to London in April 1483, then there was never any intention of Edward being crowned. However, according to Audrey Williamson The young king's coronation was fixed by the Council for the obviously rushed' date of Sunday, 4 May; and Rivers Grey and their young charge left Ludlow on 24 April...1 If one remembers that Edward IV only died on 9 April, that his son didn't leave Ludlow until 24 April and was at Stony Stratford on 30 April with likely two days journey left to reach London, to call a coronation date of 4 May as rushed is another example of British understatement. When was Edward supposed to have his coronation robes purchased, let alone Richard and Anne? Or does the writer think such items may be had off the rack at M&S? (I suddenly have this vision of John Inman waving his tape measure about...) Hope this helps. Sorry I couldn't be more precise. Doug 1 The Mystery of the Princes, p. 46

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 19:31:02
Nance Crawford
ÿ Hello, Sharon - My friend Peter Colley, who wrote a blub for the back of my book, was born in Scarborough and told me about the disappeared statue, which was a big think in his young life. Do you know anything about it? N Nance Crawford
www.NanceCrawford.com
----- Original Message ----- From: 'Sharon Feely' 43118@... [] To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Re: No clothes for the coronation

ÿ Couldn't agree more Gillian! I was denied leave from work this week so unable to attend anything in person, and it's probably just as well as I can't stop sobbing! I've had to record all the interment programmes as I'm just too emotional at the moment to even think about watching them, and reading the wonderful posts on here and the pictures on facebook are just adding to it! I'm wearing clothes of blue and murrey as respect all week, although nobody I work with are remotely interested in history and the significance is missed, but that isn't my point. It's my respect for Richard. Scarborough (where I live) has found a document showing that Richard was intending to make Scarborough a county in its own right and that is being displayed in the art gallery from Saturday until the end of the year, so I'm going along to see that at some point, It isn't usually on public display as it's so fragile. Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: gillian.schifreen@... [] To: Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2015 9:30 PM Subject: Re: No clothes for the coronation

Maybe I should refrain from asking these questions till after the re-interment. However I'm just trying to inject a bit of objectivity into a week where I'm actually over-whelmed with emotion.


Many of the posts on here are just too touching for words. I may have to give up wearing mascara till Friday!


Gillian

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-25 21:34:49
Sharon Feely
ÿ Hi Nance, I'm not a Scarborian, only lived here 10 years, but I've never heard of a statue to start with, let alone a disappearing one. Sorry! I'm intrigued now, and have tried to find out a lot of history about the town in the time I've been here, but this is a new one on me I'm afraid! And Gillian - I had seriously thought about chucking a sickie, but I work 2 minutes round the corner from where I live, and I have to pass the office to get to the railway station (I can't drive) so my cover would be blown, as would my job unfortunately, and I can't afford to not have an income. They're not very understanding! Sharon ----- Original Message ----- From: 'Nance Crawford' Nance@... [] To: Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 7:22 PM Subject: Re: Re: No clothes for the coronation

ÿ Hello, Sharon - My friend Peter Colley, who wrote a blub for the back of my book, was born in Scarborough and told me about the disappeared statue, which was a big think in his young life. Do you know anything about it? N Nance Crawford
www.NanceCrawford.com

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-27 16:03:39
ricard1an
Not only that Eileen he thinks More is masterly!!

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-28 05:27:09
maroonnavywhite
I just found the source for all of this "no clothes ordered means the lads get it" tale: Phillipa Gregory. Arrrrgh.

Annette Carson very neatly dispenses with Ms. Gregory's witterings here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dAhBU1li5kdmMDzO0ZL7NoRYU0AeBwmJj4xZOy9QpNI/edit

A sample thereof:

But where was Lady Anne at this time? In the north, of course. She didn't arrive in London until the first week of June. She had the whole month of May in which to prepare whatever she wished to wear for her nephew's coronation. Are people saying this was impossible in Yorkshire? After living there for ten years, would the duchess not have long-established suppliers for her every need, and in particular, did she not patronize the most skilled of local people who made clothing, footwear, trimmings, and every kind of accoutrement required by the duchess and her ladies in a magnificent ducal household?


Her husband had gone south because he had a job to do there. But it would be wrong to imagine Lady Anne was so cut off in the north that she never owned a coronet or other robes or regalia appropriate to her appearance at court, or at times of state occasions, parliament, feast days or ceremonials. Was she some kind of country mouse whose attire for this event could be made only by London couturiers? Plus of course all those who dressed her in Yorkshire had every tiny measurement on record, knew her every preference for colour and fit (a little more ease in the bodice, a little less length in the sleeve &). How sensible to place such tasks in the hands of those she knew and trusted.


Furthermore, as AC points out, by the time Anne got to London, the local drapers and dressmakers would already busy with making the clothes of the people already in town. Better to have it done in York, before she headed southward.

AC also makes the same point that I do, that Anne's and Richard's clothes aren't going to need to be on the same level of ornateness as their young nephew's coronation robes anyway -- and that as the richest couple in the land, they probably had some pretty spiffy attire already to hand.

Tamara

Re: No clothes for the coronation

2015-03-28 07:47:22
Paul Trevor Bale
The lady who said it was always called the Cousins War, but Annette Carson has found no such mention anywhere before the White Queen novels!
Even the WOTR was coined by Walter Scott. It was always known as the wars between York and Lancaster until novelists changed things! Why does all the fiction get believed and ends having such a big part to play in so much of Richard's legend?
Paul


On 28/03/2015 05:27, khafara@... [] wrote:
I just found the source for all of this "no clothes ordered means the lads get it" tale:  Phillipa Gregory.  Arrrrgh.

Annette Carson very neatly dispenses with Ms. Gregory's witterings here:  https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dAhBU1li5kdmMDzO0ZL7NoRYU0AeBwmJj4xZOy9QpNI/edit

A sample thereof:

But where was Lady Anne at this time? In the north, of course. She didn't arrive in London until the first week of June. She had the whole month of May in which to prepare whatever she wished to wear for her nephew's coronation. Are people saying this was impossible in Yorkshire? After living there for ten years, would the duchess not have long-established suppliers for her every need, and in particular, did she not patronize the most skilled of local people who made clothing, footwear, trimmings, and every kind of accoutrement required by the duchess and her ladies in a magnificent ducal household?


Her husband had gone south because he had a job to do there. But it would be wrong to imagine Lady Anne was so cut off in the north that she never owned a coronet or other robes or regalia appropriate to her appearance at court, or at times of state occasions, parliament, feast days or ceremonials. Was she some kind of country mouse whose attire for this event could be made only by London couturiers? Plus of course all those who dressed her in Yorkshire had every tiny measurement on record, knew her every preference for colour and fit (a little more ease in the bodice, a little less length in the sleeve &). How sensible to place such tasks in the hands of those she knew and trusted.


Furthermore, as AC points out, by the time Anne got to London, the local drapers and dressmakers would already busy with making the clothes of the people already in town.  Better to have it done in York, before she headed southward. 

AC also makes the same point that I do, that Anne's and Richard's clothes aren't going to need to be on the same level of ornateness as their young nephew's coronation robes anyway -- and that as the richest couple in the land, they probably had some pretty spiffy attire already to hand.

Tamara


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