Arthur Lord Lisle

I don't know definitively, Hilary, but can only think it really was a nod toward King Arthur. Perhaps Edward had just heard Chaucer, or minstrels singing of King Arthur's exploits. As we know, Henry VII named his son Arthur, and made sure the child was born and christened at Winchester, etc. Embarrassing if the baby had been a girl. Arthurina? Arthurella? But, as usual, luck was on Henry's side. Anyway, perhaps Henry thought Edward had a nifty idea, and decided to purloin it to emphasise his own (non-existent) royal lineage from the ancient kings. I didn't know that Arthur was primarily a Breton name. I've never heard that before. I thought it was of Welsh origin. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 9:23 AM To: Subject: Arthur Lord Lisle

Does anyone know why Edward called him Arthur? It's primarily a Breton name at that time amd Mallory's work wasn't out until the 1480s (at least I don't think it was). There doesn't seem to be anything Breton about Elizabeth Lucy. I did a search by date and the only other Arthurs I've got before this are Arthur Pilkington and Arthur Worsley, both 50-100 years' before and both from Lancashire. H

Hilary, Arthurian romances had been hugely popular since Chrétien de Troyes in the 12th century - long before Mallory. I, too, think it must have been a nod to King Arthur.
Now, Tudor's son I think must have had a double meaning& nod to Britain's mythical past, but nod to Brittany as well.
Pansy

Indeed! I do think Messrs Pilkington and Worsley sound very Dickens clerks :) Apart from those two and the Bretons I haven't got a single Arthur since 1066 - though it might of course have been rife amongst the 'working classes'. Of course after HT it takes off ........
From: pansydobersby <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 10:12
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Hilary, Arthurian romances had been hugely popular since Chrétien de Troyes in the 12th century - long before Mallory. I, too, think it must have been a nod to King Arthur.
Now, Tudor's son I think must have had a double meaning& nod to Britain's mythical past, but nod to Brittany as well.
Pansy

I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers .......H
From: "'Sandra J Machin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 9:51
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

I don't know definitively, Hilary, but can only think it really was a nod toward King Arthur. Perhaps Edward had just heard Chaucer, or minstrels singing of King Arthur's exploits. As we know, Henry VII named his son Arthur, and made sure the child was born and christened at Winchester, etc. Embarrassing if the baby had been a girl. Arthurina? Arthurella? But, as usual, luck was on Henry's side. Anyway, perhaps Henry thought Edward had a nifty idea, and decided to purloin it to emphasise his own (non-existent) royal lineage from the ancient kings. I didn't know that Arthur was primarily a Breton name. I've never heard that before. I thought it was of Welsh origin. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 9:23 AM To: Subject: Arthur Lord Lisle Does anyone know why Edward called him Arthur? It's primarily a Breton name at that time amd Mallory's work wasn't out until the 1480s (at least I don't think it was). There doesn't seem to be anything Breton about Elizabeth Lucy. I did a search by date and the only other Arthurs I've got before this are Arthur Pilkington and Arthur Worsley, both 50-100 years' before and both from Lancashire. H

Don't forget that the name also had strong associations with the earldom of Richmond - the last 'Arthur de Richemont' (a.k.a. Arthur III of Brittany) had died in 1458.
I wonder if Edward's Arthur might give a clue as to the boy's mother's identity? It hasn't really been established whose son he was, or has it?
Now, if 'Elizabeth Lucy' was in fact Margaret FitzLewis (as Hicks theorises, and I personally think it likely he's right about that) then that would bring in the Welsh connection you're looking for& :)
Pansy

I didn't know about Hick's theory - sometimes ignorance is bliss. Yes, I have her now, daughter of Sir Lewis ap John and Anne Montagu, widow of Sir William Lucy who died in 1460 at Northampton and aunt of Mary (Woodville/Rivers). So there is a Rivers/Welsh connection. About the right age too - Edward always like them a bit older. There was a lot of contention about the Earldom of Richmond/Richemont wasn't there? Wasn't it originally English, given to Brittany by marriage, and taken back and given to John of Gaunt but the Bretons still claimed it. Do you reckon H6 knew this when he gave it to HT or was it just an earldom which was 'free'? H
From: pansydobersby <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 13:09
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Don't forget that the name also had strong associations with the earldom of Richmond - the last 'Arthur de Richemont' (a.k.a. Arthur III of Brittany) had died in 1458.
I wonder if Edward's Arthur might give a clue as to the boy's mother's identity? It hasn't really been established whose son he was, or has it?
Now, if 'Elizabeth Lucy' was in fact Margaret FitzLewis (as Hicks theorises, and I personally think it likely he's right about that) then that would bring in the Welsh connection you're looking for& :)
Pansy

Have only found the two Arthurs - lots of Marmadukes definitely a northern name. One Gawain in Shropshire (again with a Welsh mother), no Percivals as a first name until about 1500. I suppose you could say Duke Humphrey was of the literary bend? I find first name use fascinating - for example Charles died out almost completely after the Civil War until the 18th century. But surprisingly there were still a lot of Richards in the sixteenth centrury. That must have been quite brave and it says to me that the name doesn't have bad associations to most folk. H (just playing around with data on a wet day) :)
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 14:42
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Arthurian names were quite popular in the North, but literary names were also sometimes given to illegitimate offspring. Humphrey, Duke of Gloucester, had called his illegitimate children Arthur and Antigone. Marie

Marie, you had me floundering after ...the two ends of Edward's reign...! A little like the chalice from the palace. But I am really interested that illegitimate offspring were sometimes given literary names. A fascinating snippet. Thank you. Sandra =^..^= From: mariewalsh2003 Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 2:51 PM To: Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Hi,

I do think Hicks is right about the identity of Edward IV's Lady Lucy, but if so then she was not the mother of Arthur Plantagenet, whose maternal surname was Wayte.

I think what happened is that Buck conflated two mistresses from the two ends of Edward's reign, giving us Elizabeth Wayte, Lady Lucy, mother of both Lady Lumley and Arthur Wayte/ Plantagenet. Most probably Margaret FitzLewis, Lady Lucy, was the mother of Lady Lumley (born c. 1462, and whose true first name was also Margaret, not Elizabeth as per Buck), whilst a Wayte lady, possibly named Elizabeth, was the mother of Arthur, whose career suggests he was probably born very late in Edward's reign.

Anyway, that's as I see it.

Marie

Let's not forget that Arthur was the actual next in line after Richard 1, and John, by at least one account, killed the lad personally. Highly unlikely, but mud sticks. However, is it not interesting that this is one of the last things even historians use to vilify John? Oh, and the body was thrown into the river outside the castle and never recovered.
Paul

On 03/04/2015 12:52, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] wrote:
I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's  Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before  HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers  .......H 
From: "'Sandra J Machin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 9:51
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

  I don't know definitively, Hilary, but can only think it really was a nod toward King Arthur. Perhaps Edward had just heard Chaucer, or minstrels singing of King Arthur's exploits. As we know, Henry VII named his son Arthur, and made sure the child was born and christened at Winchester, etc. Embarrassing if the baby had been a girl. Arthurina? Arthurella? But, as usual, luck was on Henry's side. Anyway, perhaps Henry thought Edward had a nifty idea, and decided to purloin it to emphasise his own (non-existent) royal lineage from the ancient kings. I didn't know that Arthur was primarily a Breton name. I've never heard that before. I thought it was of Welsh origin.   Sandra =^..^=   From: mailto: Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 9:23 AM To: Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Arthur Lord Lisle     Does anyone know why Edward called him Arthur? It's primarily a Breton name at that time amd Mallory's work wasn't out until the 1480s (at least I don't think it was). There doesn't seem to be anything Breton about Elizabeth Lucy. I did a search by date and the only other Arthurs I've got before this are Arthur Pilkington and Arthur Worsley, both 50-100 years' before and both from Lancashire. H

I'd forgotten the Arthur/King John thing Paul - how daft of me. Yes, King John, another one whom everyone condemns without knowing that much about him. Of course David Starkey (sorry folks) is now the king of Magna Carta. His new book is just out and he knows less than nothing about the British Constitution - says she who had the pain of studying it in her youth. H
From: "Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 20:55
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Let's not forget that Arthur was the actual next in line after Richard 1, and John, by at least one account, killed the lad personally. Highly unlikely, but mud sticks. However, is it not interesting that this is one of the last things even historians use to vilify John? Oh, and the body was thrown into the river outside the castle and never recovered.
Paul



On 03/04/2015 12:52, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] wrote:
I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers .......H
From: "'Sandra J Machin' sandramachin@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 9:51
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

I don't know definitively, Hilary, but can only think it really was a nod toward King Arthur. Perhaps Edward had just heard Chaucer, or minstrels singing of King Arthur's exploits. As we know, Henry VII named his son Arthur, and made sure the child was born and christened at Winchester, etc. Embarrassing if the baby had been a girl. Arthurina? Arthurella? But, as usual, luck was on Henry's side. Anyway, perhaps Henry thought Edward had a nifty idea, and decided to purloin it to emphasise his own (non-existent) royal lineage from the ancient kings. I didn't know that Arthur was primarily a Breton name. I've never heard that before. I thought it was of Welsh origin. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Friday, April 03, 2015 9:23 AM To: Subject: [Richard III Society Forum] Arthur Lord Lisle Does anyone know why Edward called him Arthur? It's primarily a Breton name at that time amd Mallory's work wasn't out until the 1480s (at least I don't think it was). There doesn't seem to be anything Breton about Elizabeth Lucy. I did a search by date and the only other Arthurs I've got before this are Arthur Pilkington and Arthur Worsley, both 50-100 years' before and both from Lancashire. H

Thanks Marie. I always wondered where the Marmadukes came from. I suppose Percival is also a Norman name which is why we have the surname. I have found the odd Lancelot - seems the Threlkelds (again in Cumberland) were into them and we have the lovely Lancelot Lacon in Shropshire! H
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 15:59
Subject: Re: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle


I also have an Arthur Yerburgh, a member of the garrison of Nottingham Castle, who was murdered in Derbyshire in 1477.Amongst my family history files I have the will of an Arthur Swethnam of Minstead in the New Forest who died 1515, so was probably born during the Yorkist era.An Arthur Keye or Kaye born 1502....
There certainly were Percivals in the North in the 15th century - Percival Cressacre, father of Ambrose, for instance. Reference in 1407 to a Percival de Pensax living in the Yorkshire Dales. There was also a Percival Amyas, etc.
One of Northumberland's retainers c. 1470 was Gawain Lamplugh of Warkworth. Then there's Gawain Eglesfeld, probably born in the 1490s, son of the John Eglesfeld who caused trouble for the York City Council.
Yes, Marmaduke is indeed a northern name, a corruption of the Irish Mael Maedoc 'servant of [St.] Madoc'.

Hilary and Pansy, Re Richmond / Richemont and contention with Brittany.
Just to clarify that the castle and town of Richmond were founded by Bretons in the post conquest era. The key figure is usually referred to as Alan Rufus. He was the subject of articles in the press a few years ago that suggested he was the richest 'Englishman' who had ever lived after adjustment for historic inflation.
He also founded Middleham.
The Bretons were a significant section of the so-called Normans who settled after 1066. They were mostly represented in the North East around Richmond, the West Country and East Anglia.
You would be surprised how many of the great families had Breton origins - the FitzAlans, the Dynhams the Zouches and of course the Royal Stuarts.
The heraldic signature of the Breton ducal house was the Ermine.
As for the Arthur de Richemont who was Francis's predecessor, his last wife who survived as dowager was aunt to the Woodville siblings.
Kind regardsDavid



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At 3 Apr 2015 13:51:56, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []<''> wrote:

I didn't know about Hick's theory - sometimes ignorance is bliss. Yes, I have her now, daughter of Sir Lewis ap John and Anne Montagu, widow of Sir William Lucy who died in 1460 at Northampton and aunt of Mary (Woodville/Rivers). So there is a Rivers/Welsh connection. About the right age too - Edward always like them a bit older. There was a lot of contention about the Earldom of Richmond/Richemont wasn't there? Wasn't it originally English, given to Brittany by marriage, and taken back and given to John of Gaunt but the Bretons still claimed it. Do you reckon H6 knew this when he gave it to HT or was it just an earldom which was 'free'? H
From: pansydobersby
To:
Sent: Friday, 3 April 2015, 13:09
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Don't forget that the name also had strong associations with the earldom of Richmond - the last 'Arthur de Richemont' (a.k.a. Arthur III of Brittany) had died in 1458.
I wonder if Edward's Arthur might give a clue as to the boy's mother's identity? It hasn't really been established whose son he was, or has it?
Now, if 'Elizabeth Lucy' was in fact Margaret FitzLewis (as Hicks theorises, and I personally think it likely he's right about that) then that would bring in the Welsh connection you're looking for& :)
Pansy

Quick note to Sandra: the Welsh and Breton languages are related, so Arthur could be both a Welsh and a Breton name.
As to the identity of the mother of Arthur Lord Lisle, I hold no opinion (or have not thought through the question), but it does seem to me it's more likely he was born toward the end of Edward's life, or he would have been pretty old to have been given the responsibility he was given at Calais.

Hilary wrote :

"I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers .......H"
Carol responds:

Yes, I was going to mention Arthur Plantagenet, son of King John's older brother, Geoffrey (the original Prince in the Tower whose fate the Tudorites must have had in mind when they accused Richard of murdering his nephews). If I believed in omens, I'd say that was an ill-omened for any king or prince to give his son, legitimate or otherwise.

Carol

Just a thought, talking of Perkin Warbeck's height do we know how tall Arthur was? I know it's different mothers but it might be an indicator. H
From: "justcarol67@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 10 April 2015, 0:02
Subject: Re: Arthur Lord Lisle

Hilary wrote :

"I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers .......H"
Carol responds:

Yes, I was going to mention Arthur Plantagenet, son of King John's older brother, Geoffrey (the original Prince in the Tower whose fate the Tudorites must have had in mind when they accused Richard of murdering his nephews). If I believed in omens, I'd say that was an ill-omened for any king or prince to give his son, legitimate or otherwise.

Carol

Regarding the naming of Arthur. I am sure it was an allusion to the common ancestry of the Welsh, celtic English and Bretons and to their shared Arthurian legends.
However, Henry had several indications of good omens from the name. The first location where he was shipwrecked is near the parish of Plouarzel - a centre for the worship of Saint Armel. Jasper was also housed for a time near Plouermel - another place associated with the saint. Henry credited prayers to Armel for his survival of the later shipwreck in 1483.
After Bosworth, he commissioned a stained-glass window of Armel at Merevale and Henry's own tomb features a carving of him. Badges of Armel were popular during Henry's life.
Saint Armel is one of those historic characters who are sometimes proposed as the inspiration for King Arthur. He wa also cousin to Malo and Tudwal.
Kind regardsDavid

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At 10 Apr 2015 00:02:24, justcarol67@... []<''> wrote:

Hilary wrote :

"I certainly think after Caxton's/ Mallory's Morte D'Arthur HT could have used it for several double-entendres. There were several Arthur Dukes of Brittany, including one who was the son of Geoffrey Plantagenet and Constance of Brittany. Perhaps we're back to the mystical Cornish/Welsh/Breton connections to Arthur? No we've never had an Arthurina have we?:) By all accounts Mallory was quite a nasty piece of work but that's another story. The name of Edward's son never reallys struck me as odd till I realised how rare it was outside Brittany before HT's Arthur. Now had he been more closely allied to Welsh women like Rivers .......H"
Carol responds:

Yes, I was going to mention Arthur Plantagenet, son of King John's older brother, Geoffrey (the original Prince in the Tower whose fate the Tudorites must have had in mind when they accused Richard of murdering his nephews). If I believed in omens, I'd say that was an ill-omened for any king or prince to give his son, legitimate or otherwise.

Carol

---In , <justcarol67@...> wrote :

Carol responds:

Yes, I was going to mention Arthur Plantagenet, son of King John's older brother, Geoffrey (the original Prince in the Tower whose fate the Tudorites must have had in mind when they accused Richard of murdering his nephews). If I believed in omens, I'd say that was an ill-omened for any king or prince to give his son, legitimate or otherwise.


Weds writes:
Has anyone mentioned Elizabeth of York's bastard half-brother, Arthur ,Plantagenet whose father was Edward IV? He was accepted by HT and active at court.