Richard's motto

I can't find the post where someone asked about the other motto
attributed to Richard "Tante le Desire."
Just found in my book on liveries and standards etc the following:-
"In Plate III of the British Museum m.s. 404742 a badge showing a boar
argent crowned about the neck with the motto Tante Le Desire looks
incorrect. This badge is usually attributed to Thomas Stanley Earl of
Derby post 1485. I have not come across any other source using that motto."
Paul

Paul,
I've some vague and fuzzy-headed recollection of that motto appearing, hand written, in a book (possibly a romance) owned by Richard when quite young. When I get up some steam, I'll check Sutton's and Fuchs' The Books of Richard III (and maybe that 1973 NPG exhibition catalogue by Tudor-Craig). My impression is it wasn't a *serious* motto, at all - just a scribble in the margin of a good read.
Judy
Loyaulte me lie


On Thursday, June 4, 2015 8:46 AM, "Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... []" <> wrote:


I can't find the post where someone asked about the other motto
attributed to Richard "Tante le Desire."
Just found in my book on liveries and standards etc the following:-
"In Plate III of the British Museum m.s. 404742 a badge showing a boar
argent crowned about the neck with the motto Tante Le Desire looks
incorrect. This badge is usually attributed to Thomas Stanley Earl of
Derby post 1485. I have not come across any other source using that motto."
Paul

is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

Alexsandra, if you want to know what a terrible loss Richard was, then watch the documentary of Thomas Penn's The Winter King. If ever there was a lesson in having backed the wrong side, Henry VII's supporters learned it the hard way. Sandra =^..^= From: mailto: Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 3:25 PM To: Subject: documentaries

is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

I made a little film for Yorkshire Television during the quincentenary celebrations at Middleham called Good King Richard. Quite sweet, and it was a beautiful sunny week. How you find a copy though now is something else!
Paul



On 04/06/2015 15:25, Aleksandra R rasandraleks@... [] wrote:
is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

If you find out please share! I would love to purchase a copy! FINALLY, a well shot, pro-Richard III film, shot by someone who knows a lot!

From: [mailto:]
Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2015 1:29 PM
To:
Subject: Re: documentaries

I made a little film for Yorkshire Television during the quincentenary celebrations at Middleham called Good King Richard. Quite sweet, and it was a beautiful sunny week. How you find a copy though now is something else!
Paul

On 04/06/2015 15:25, Aleksandra R rasandraleks@... [] wrote:

is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

It is not scribbled, but reather beautifully written on a page of the story of "Ipomedon" with his name Richard
of Gloucester added. It was probably written by a teenage Richard before 1470.
Eva

Should like to know, if it is findable.Thank you in advance,Diana



On 04 Jun 2015, at 20:29, Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... [] <> wrote:

I made a little film for Yorkshire Television during the quincentenary celebrations at Middleham called Good King Richard. Quite sweet, and it was a beautiful sunny week. How you find a copy though now is something else!
Paul

On 04/06/2015 15:25, Aleksandra R rasandraleks@... [] wrote:
is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

Thanks for locating this. I used "scribble" only in the light-hearted sense of its casualness. It is, after all, a bit of marginalia, howsoever nicely penned. And Richard's youthful handwriting *was* indeed beautiful, but - like that of most adults - devolved with age and life experiences. ;-)
Judy
Loyaulte me lie


On Thursday, June 4, 2015 2:26 PM, "eva.pitter@... []" <> wrote:


It is not scribbled, but reather beautifully written on a page of the story of "Ipomedon" with his name Richard
of Gloucester added. It was probably written by a teenage Richard before 1470.
Eva

Me too!

JesdFrom: Diana De La Porte adlp.diana@... []
Sent: 04/06/2015 21:37
To:
Subject: Re: documentaries

Should like to know, if it is findable.Thank you in advance,Diana



On 04 Jun 2015, at 20:29, Paul Trevor Bale bale475@... [] <> wrote:

I made a little film for Yorkshire Television during the quincentenary celebrations at Middleham called Good King Richard. Quite sweet, and it was a beautiful sunny week. How you find a copy though now is something else!
Paul

On 04/06/2015 15:25, Aleksandra R rasandraleks@... [] wrote:
is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?

i did try to find 'Good King Richard' with no luck, but if i do find it i will let you know.
what i did end up seeing was the 'The Winter King', thank you for the recommendation, i did enjoy it. and as its youtube there was no way of escaping more documentaries. there is still a lot to watch of course but for now i stumbled over 'The Princes In The Tower 1483' not sure if any of you have seen it. it is good in that fictional documentary style about Perkin Warbeck, the actors are good, the mood is set nice and there is one possibility that it presents, what if neither of the princes in the tower where killed.
have any of you seen it?

There have been too many with that name, most of which do not seem to have any grasp of the central issue, that all claims of a murder is based on More which if you inspect it properly makes no sense. I don't recall seeing one where More's story is pulled apart and inspected closely, nor mentions that the Tower at the time was a small village with a few hundred people living there, so why no stories current during Richard's reign from there, not theories of how the boys may have been taken away abroad, or to the country, nor of why Henry spent so much time trying to blame Richard for a murder her was never able to prove etc etc.
They all start from the point of "poor little boys imprisoned and killed by their wicked uncle".
No way to approach a sensible investigation.
As for Good King Richard, if I knew how to get something onto UTube I would as I have  dvd copy.
Sorry for getting so many interested only to disappoint!
Paul



On 05/06/2015 09:21, Aleksandra R rasandraleks@... [] wrote:
i did try to find 'Good King Richard' with no luck, but if i do find it i will let you know.
what i did end up seeing was the 'The Winter King', thank you for the recommendation, i did enjoy it. and as its youtube there was no way of escaping more documentaries. there is still a lot to watch of course but for now i stumbled over 'The Princes In The Tower 1483' not sure if any of you have seen it. it is good in that fictional documentary style about Perkin Warbeck, the actors are good, the mood is set nice and there is one possibility that it presents, what if neither of the princes in the tower where killed.
have any of you seen it? 

Aleksandra wrote:

"is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?"

Carol responds:

Aside from Paul's documentary, which I haven't seen yet, I don't know of any good documentary about Richard (though you may want to see the one about the discovery of his remains so you'll know a bit about the people involved and form your own opinions of, say, Jo Appleby). But I can recommend some recent books, both by Annette Carson. I'd start with "Richard III: A Small Guide to the Great Debate" and then read "Richard III: The Maligned King." I haven't read her most recent book (I need to write to her to order a copy soon!), but I have no doubt that it's equally good--and very important as it focuses on the crucial three months of the Protectorate, which has too often been depicted from the viewpoint of hostile sources (Mancini and the Croyland Chronicler).

Carol

Someone has posted it on Facebook on the King Richard 111 page. Excellent,with the Duke of Gloucester and Jeremy Potter. Costumes were good too as were the commentary and music. Brought back lots of happy memories of visits to Middleham.

thank you for the recommendations, will look into them. i did find bout three documentaries about him, all of the per-discovery time. and to be honest they left me with no real gain of any new information. there is a picture of him in my mind but it is always nice to find out more about him and his time as a king and him as a person in general. obviously there are set types a king (or queen) will be put in, especially given enough time passed, easiest example being henry viii. but beneath it, there is a whole world. so finding a book or a documentary that opens up some new viewpoint is always a plus.

To:
From:
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2015 10:56:57 -0700
Subject: Re: documentaries





Aleksandra wrote:

"is there any documentary that you could advise concerning Richard?"

Carol responds:

Aside from Paul's documentary, which I haven't seen yet, I don't know of any good documentary about Richard (though you may want to see the one about the discovery of his remains so you'll know a bit about the people involved and form your own opinions of, say, Jo Appleby). But I can recommend some recent books, both by Annette Carson. I'd start with "Richard III: A Small Guide to the Great Debate" and then read "Richard III: The Maligned King." I haven't read her most recent book (I need to write to her to order a copy soon!), but I have no doubt that it's equally good--and very important as it focuses on the crucial three months of the Protectorate, which has too often been depicted from the viewpoint of hostile sources (Mancini and the Croyland Chronicler).

Carol

Which Richard III page?Carole

Sent from my iPad
On 5 Jun 2015, at 20:28, maryfriend@... [] <> wrote:

Someone has posted it on Facebook on the King Richard 111 page. Excellent,with the Duke of Gloucester and Jeremy Potter. Costumes were good too as were the commentary and music. Brought back lots of happy memories of visits to Middleham.

Thanks for the tip Sandra. I downloaded the book and am dumbfounded at how well Penn brings home the brutal thuggery of Henry's reign.

It's easy to see why Thomas More (whose error-ridden pseudo-biography of Richard was almost certainly the work of his mentor John Moreton) praised Edward IV and had nothing but harsh words for Henry.

Tamara

Actually on my script page.
Paul


On 05/06/2015 20:28, maryfriend@... [] wrote:
Someone has posted it on Facebook on the King Richard 111 page. Excellent,with the Duke of Gloucester and Jeremy Potter. Costumes were good too as were  the commentary and music. Brought back lots of happy memories of visits to Middleham.

I think it is just called King Richard III.
Mary

Tamara wrote:

"It's easy to see why Thomas More (whose error-ridden pseudo-biography of Richard was almost certainly the work of his mentor John Moreton) praised Edward IV and had nothing but harsh words for Henry."


Carol responds:

More's pseudo-biography (I agree with your term and with "error-ridden") says next to nothing about Henry though he certainly attacked him as a tyrant after his death in a poem ironically praising the new king Henry VIII as the hope the nation. As for Morton, there's some evidence that he left a Latin manuscript that may have been the basis or inspiration for More's work (which I believe is a parody of historians like Vergil--the otherwise unaccountable error in Edward's seemingly precisely stated age in months, days, and years all of them wrong, seems like a clue that nothing in it is to be believed), but More had several versions in both Latin and English, so Morton cannot be wholly responsible. Given More's reputation for ironic humor, I believe it's mostly if not wholly his work. (I credit Alison Hanham, whose view of Richard I disagree with, with this theory, which I at first rejected but now accept.)

More was a page in Morton's house but left for Oxford in 1492, when he was fourteen years old, so the extent to which Morton was his mentor may have been exaggerated by historians.

Carol

Well I call it richardtheminiseries so unless someone has changed it that's what it should be called. Best perhaps to go to the website I know connects to it www.paultrevorbale.co.uk
Paul


On 06/06/2015 15:41, maryfriend@... [] wrote:
I think it is just called King Richard III.
Mary

Paul, King Richard the III is the Facebook page that posted your film.
Mary

Carol wrote:

"More's pseudo-biography (I agree with your term and with "error-ridden") says next to nothing about Henry"

I knew that. I'm sorry if it seemed as if I was implying that the criticism was in the R3 manuscript.

"though he certainly attacked him as a tyrant after his death in a poem ironically praising the new king Henry VIII as the hope the nation."

Indeed. As bad as the Wydevilles were, they were angels compared to Empson, Bray, and the rest of Henry VII's crew. And Henry VIII was even worse, as whereas his father was brutal yet occasionally capable (particularly early in his reign), his son was merely brutal.

Tamara