Richard III Research and Discussion Archive

Home Archive Images Groups

Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-22 22:23:44

ricard1an

Hi Hilary

Someone on Facebook has asked if anyone knows about a charitable foundation connected to Stillington that Richard is supposed to have supported after he became King. I said I would ask you ( someone on the Forum who has done a lot of research on Stillington). Apparently someone on the Real Richard site has mentioned it, obviously wishing to vilify Richard, as the main posters on the site are Karen Clarke ( remember her) and Susan Higginbottom. I think if anyone would know you would.

Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-22 23:58:20

David Butterworth

what the 'real Richard' site?Could you provide the link?Dave

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 08:31:37

Hilary Jones

The Stillingtons founded and endowed a school at Acaster near York where our Robert hailed from. It's usually used to defend him, not vilify him. Is this what they're talking about? H
From: "David Butterworth davetheslave44@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Tuesday, 22 September 2015, 23:58
Subject: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

what the 'real Richard' site?Could you provide the link?Dave

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 10:09:32

ricard1an

Not sure Hilary. I don't think they are vilifying Stillington only Richard. I suppose the implication is that Richard gave money to Stillington's foundation as a pay off for Stillington making up the pre-contract story. I don't have link to the Real Richard as KC banned me from there a couple of years ago. Someone on the Ricardian FB site has asked the question. Do you know anything about Richard supporting this charitable foundation?
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 10:24:41

Stephen

https://murreyandblue.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/obsessed-not-much/

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 23 September 2015 10:10
To:
Subject: Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 10:40:58

ricard1an

Stephen I can't access the link you have posted.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 10:56:49

Stephen

https://murreyandblue.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/obsessed-not-much/

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 23 September 2015 10:41
To:
Subject: RE: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Stephen I can't access the link you have posted.

Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 13:25:10

Hilary Jones

I think this is what they're talking about:
'Robert Stillyngton, bishop of Bath and Wells, to the provost and fellows of the collegiate chapel of St. Andrew, Netheracastre, co. York etc. Release and quitclaim of all the lands undermentioned, to wit forty acres lying separately in Netheracastre, formerly of John Stillyngton father of the grantor, and Thomas Broket esquire, which Robert erected the collegiate church aforesaid; and also of all those lands etc. formerly of Thomas Broket therein, now of the abbot of St. Germanus, Selby, the manors of Burneby and Fangfosse co. York, and all other lands and tenements, rents, reversions and services, meadows, lesues and pastures in Burneby, Fangfosse, Northcave, Southcliff and Northcliff co. York, which the said Robert granted and demised at farm to the provost and fellows, as in a deed dated 6 October, 22 Edward IV, 1482, is more clearly shown. Dated 20 August, 1 Richard III, 1483.'

This is from the Close Rolls of Richard III 1483/4. Well, firstly this seems to indicate that the school (or collegiate chapel as it's called) and demise of lands were there before Edward died, so no bribe there. Secondly John Stillington had been a merchant (so not poor) and Robert had come into more land in 1468 through an inheritance entitlement of his mother. Must admit had never thought of this as a bribe before! H
From: "'Stephen' stephenmlark@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 23 September 2015, 10:56
Subject: RE: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

https://murreyandblue.wordpress.com/2015/08/31/obsessed-not-much/

From: [mailto: ]
Sent: 23 September 2015 10:41
To:
Subject: RE: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation Stephen I can't access the link you have posted. Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 15:15:36

ricard1an

Not being that conversant with medieval laws regarding lands, are you saying that Stillington granted lands which belonged to his father and some that he had come into through his mother, to the provost and fellows of St Andrews Nethercastre? It seems from what you are saying that these lands had been granted before Edward had died, so am I right in thinking that Richard was just re-affirming this grant?
Thank you for this Hilary. Isn't it funny how some people can take something like this completely out of context and use it to attack Richard's reputation? Maybe they ought to do some research like you.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-23 21:42:16

stephenmlark

I bet Cairo Central won't point that out: Stillington rewarded himself with his own land before he revealed the pre-contract.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-24 11:26:08

Hilary Jones

I know. Stillington's inheritance of the manor of Great Edstone appears to be quite a normal medieval land transaction ie the male line had been exhausted so the next 'heir' was his mother. It's all in the NA if anyone wants to look. And a bit went to brother Thomas. All in all, a nice little windfall!FWIT I can't find anything which indicates Stillington was particularly close to Richard, even though he was a Yorkshireman. His nephew Ingleby wasn't paid much as Squire of the Body, he wasn't in the Richard 'set' like 'my' Alice Burgh. But he was a good lawyer; he was surrounded by them all his life, the Gacoignes and Fairfaxs in Yorkshire, the Cholkes and Newtons in Somerset. It's quite reasonable for any king to have used him in that capacity. H
From: "stephenmlark@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, 23 September 2015, 21:42
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

I bet Cairo Central won't point that out: Stillington rewarded himself with his own land before he revealed the pre-contract.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-25 13:06:37

b.eileen25

Couldn't they have done a bit of research before jumping the gun...after all we have supposed to be the 'loonies'....Eileen

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-25 13:29:42

b.eileen25

oooooops 'we ARE supposed to be the loonies..."

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-25 14:44:47

Hilary Jones

Well as a fellow loony I can confirm it's also in the minutes of Richard's Parliament where it quite clearly says that the land belonged to John Stillyngton. And it's there, not because Richard was giving anything to the Bish but because Parliament was agreeing, at the Bish's request, that there should be no trespassers on land given to the College (ie protecting it for its purpose) - that's putting it crudely but it's there for all to read. I'm sure others would interpret it more eloquently but in no way is it a bribe or at Richard's instigation. But I am just a loony :) :) H
--------------------------------------------
On Fri, 25/9/15, cherryripe.eileenb@... [] <> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation
To:
Date: Friday, 25 September, 2015, 13:29

oooooops 'we ARE supposed to be the
loonies..."

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565 --
#yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp #yiv8129857565hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp #yiv8129857565ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp .yiv8129857565ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp .yiv8129857565ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mkp .yiv8129857565ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8129857565ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8129857565ygrp-lc #yiv8129857565hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor
#yiv8129857565ygrp-lc .yiv8129857565ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565activity span
.yiv8129857565underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 dd.yiv8129857565last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 dd.yiv8129857565last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 dd.yiv8129857565last p
span.yiv8129857565yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565file-title a, #yiv8129857565
div.yiv8129857565file-title a:active, #yiv8129857565
div.yiv8129857565file-title a:hover, #yiv8129857565
div.yiv8129857565file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565photo-title a,
#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565photo-title a:active,
#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565photo-title a:hover,
#yiv8129857565 div.yiv8129857565photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 div#yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv8129857565ygrp-msg p a span.yiv8129857565yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv8129857565 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv8129857565 .yiv8129857565replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv8129857565 input, #yiv8129857565 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv8129857565
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-mlmsg #yiv8129857565logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-msg
p#yiv8129857565attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-reco
#yiv8129857565reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor #yiv8129857565ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor #yiv8129857565ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-sponsor #yiv8129857565ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv8129857565 #yiv8129857565ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv8129857565

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-25 15:08:35

Pamela Bain

If you are, then we all are!
On Sep 25, 2015, at 8:44 AM, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-25 21:01:54

ricard1an

Thank you Hilary. The person who asked the original question says thank you too. I think that she is the only person brave enough to lurk on the Real Richard page. It is just pointless because they think that they know it all and obviously they don't.
Mary.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-26 08:47:48

Hilary Jones

Pleasure! It's worrying though how people more than ever are picking up random ideas about Richard and running to print with them - there seems to be a rash of new books about him, which I suppose is not surprising as a money spinner?What is surprising is how all those who rush to claim he killed his nephews (and most of new books/articles do) never ask why he didn't kill Warwick, who, after TR would always have a much stronger claim than them, attainder or not. H
From: "maryfriend@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 25 September 2015, 21:00
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Thank you Hilary. The person who asked the original question says thank you too. I think that she is the only person brave enough to lurk on the Real Richard page. It is just pointless because they think that they know it all and obviously they don't.
Mary.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-26 16:12:52

ricard1an

They just accept what so called historians have written. They never ask those questions like why didn't he kill Warwick. If we were to ask them "what evidence do you have" when they say Richard killed the Princes their only reply would be "well they disappeared while he was King". They need to think outside the box and ask what if this or that happened.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-26 16:26:09

b.eileen25

Well..fact.. we do know for sure that Richard didn't kill Warwick...but Tudor did! And his son..fact.. went on to kill Warwick's sister too for good measure..a lady in her 60s....hmmm..the facts speak for themselves..Eileen

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-26 20:24:43

ricard1an

Sorry folks forgot the question marks. Agree Eileen.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-27 10:18:27

Hilary Jones

Which when you think about it begs the question whether Richard would have bothered to send them abroad as they would never have any legal entitlement to the throne anyway, unless they took it back by conquest. If he was going to send anyone it should have been Warwick and auntie Margaret would have liked having him, since George had been her favourite brother. Yet he didn't deem it necessary to do that. Far better to have sent them somewhere quiet in the country here? But of course what happened in the aftermath of Bosworth could have been a different thing.I do think there's still stuff to be found here. My daughter has just moved to a school dating from before the Conquest and there are loads of Latin documents stuffed in the roof above a classroom. The 'archivist' is the ex Head of Biology who can't read Latin! There must be quite a few more places like this who don't realise what they've really potentially got. H
From: "maryfriend@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Saturday, 26 September 2015, 20:24
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Sorry folks forgot the question marks. Agree Eileen.

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-27 12:21:39

ricard1an

That is just the type of place that Tudor's shredders probably didn't access. There might not be anything relevant to 1483-1485 but it has got to be worth a research project.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-09-27 15:23:54

Janjovian

I agree.

JessFrom: maryfriend@... []
Sent: 27/09/2015 12:21
To:
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

That is just the type of place that Tudor's shredders probably didn't access. There might not be anything relevant to 1483-1485 but it has got to be worth a research project.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-02 07:05:25

mariewalsh2003

Hilary wrote

" My daughter has just moved to a school dating from before the Conquest and there are loads of Latin documents stuffed in the roof above a classroom. The 'archivist' is the ex Head of Biology who can't read Latin!"

Marie:

Hi all, just got back home last night.

I was wondering, would the archivist/ biology teacher be willing to photograph the documents so that they could be at least looked over and catalogued by someone who does have the requisite Latin & palaeography skills?

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-02 21:29:03

maroonnavywhite

Marie wrote:

"Hi all, just got back home last night."

Welcome back! Hope all is well with you and yours.

"I was wondering, would the archivist/ biology teacher be willing to photograph the documents so that they could be at least looked over and catalogued by someone who does have the requisite Latin & palaeography skills?"

That sounds like an excellent idea! Who wants to volunteer to ask her?

Tamara

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-03 16:54:24

mariewalsh2003

Thank you, Tamara. All very well, thank you.

Hilary, I suppose this ball must remain in your court?

Marie

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-04 14:42:17

Hilary Jones

Yes Marie, I will come back to you.

Re my post of last week saying that I couldn't find a close historical link between Stillington and Richard, that was before I just bumped into Thomas Witham.

Thomas Witham, another Yorkshireman, had a career which in some ways mirrored that of Stillington. He was Chancellor of the Exchequer to both Henry VI and Edward IV (from about 1465 to 1469 when he goes off the radar). Witham came from Corneburgh, near Sheriff Hutton and had close ties with the castle and its church, which he endowed and where he is buried. After 1483 he became Richard's close counsellor (confirmed by Horrox) and must have therefore been in Richard's circle for some time. He perhaps went out of favour after 1469 because he was an original 'Warwick man' as were most of those who lived round Middleham?

Witham married Agnes Thweng, who was from a family joined at the hip to the Constables. The Constables came originally not from Flamborough, but from Holm-on-Spalding Moor, in East Yorkshire. The relatives from whom Stillington inherited Great Edston were called de Holme and at least two de Holmes married into the Ingleby family - you'll recall that Stillington's niece married William Ingleby and his great niece Sir Robert Constable. There were two other de Holmes who were quite famous wool merchants and mayors of York at the time when John Stillington was a mercer there, and who incidentally, had ties with Calais and whose sisters again married into the Ingleby family.

But what clinches the relationship is that in 1465 Stillington made Thomas Witham's brother William, Dean of Wells, a post he occupied until his death in 1472. As well as this, William Witham had land/ties with Marylebone in London and Stillington's estate at the time of his death rather strangely included Marylebone. Now I would be the first to stress that this has nothing whatsoever to do with bribery allegations, but it does perhaps indicate that Stillington was rather better known to Richard than was once thought, and that he might have been recommended by Witham as one to draft TR?

What sits strangely alongside this is the Clarence affair of the 1470s where it's thought there could have been a link to Stillington. I for one find it hard to think Richard would have trusted someone who had been involved in treachery of any kind. H

--------------------------------------------
On Sat, 3/10/15, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:

Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation
To:
Date: Saturday, 3 October, 2015, 16:54

Thank you, Tamara. All very well, thank
you.
Hilary, I suppose this
ball must remain in your court?
Marie

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788 --
#yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px
0;padding:0 10px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp hr {
border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp #yiv6196367788hd {
color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px
0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp #yiv6196367788ads {
margin-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp .yiv6196367788ad {
padding:0 0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp .yiv6196367788ad p {
margin:0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mkp .yiv6196367788ad a {
color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;}
#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6196367788ygrp-lc {
font-family:Arial;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6196367788ygrp-lc #yiv6196367788hd {
margin:10px
0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor
#yiv6196367788ygrp-lc .yiv6196367788ad {
margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788actions {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:11px;padding:10px 0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity {
background-color:#e0ecee;float:left;font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;padding:10px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity span {
font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity span:first-child {
text-transform:uppercase;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity span a {
color:#5085b6;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity span span {
color:#ff7900;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788activity span
.yiv6196367788underline {
text-decoration:underline;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788attach {
clear:both;display:table;font-family:Arial;font-size:12px;padding:10px
0;width:400px;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788attach div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788attach img {
border:none;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788attach label {
display:block;margin-bottom:5px;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788attach label a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 blockquote {
margin:0 0 0 4px;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788bold {
font-family:Arial;font-size:13px;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788bold a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 dd.yiv6196367788last p a {
font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 dd.yiv6196367788last p span {
margin-right:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 dd.yiv6196367788last p
span.yiv6196367788yshortcuts {
margin-right:0;}

#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788attach-table div div a {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788attach-table {
width:400px;}

#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788file-title a, #yiv6196367788
div.yiv6196367788file-title a:active, #yiv6196367788
div.yiv6196367788file-title a:hover, #yiv6196367788
div.yiv6196367788file-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788photo-title a,
#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788photo-title a:active,
#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788photo-title a:hover,
#yiv6196367788 div.yiv6196367788photo-title a:visited {
text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 div#yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg
#yiv6196367788ygrp-msg p a span.yiv6196367788yshortcuts {
font-family:Verdana;font-size:10px;font-weight:normal;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788green {
color:#628c2a;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788MsoNormal {
margin:0 0 0 0;}

#yiv6196367788 o {
font-size:0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788photos div {
float:left;width:72px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788photos div div {
border:1px solid
#666666;height:62px;overflow:hidden;width:62px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788photos div label {
color:#666666;font-size:10px;overflow:hidden;text-align:center;white-space:nowrap;width:64px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788reco-category {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788reco-desc {
font-size:77%;}

#yiv6196367788 .yiv6196367788replbq {
margin:4px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-actbar div a:first-child {
margin-right:2px;padding-right:5px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg {
font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg table {
font-size:inherit;font:100%;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg select,
#yiv6196367788 input, #yiv6196367788 textarea {
font:99% Arial, Helvetica, clean, sans-serif;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg pre, #yiv6196367788
code {
font:115% monospace;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg * {
line-height:1.22em;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-mlmsg #yiv6196367788logo {
padding-bottom:10px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-msg p a {
font-family:Verdana;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-msg
p#yiv6196367788attach-count span {
color:#1E66AE;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-reco
#yiv6196367788reco-head {
color:#ff7900;font-weight:700;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-reco {
margin-bottom:20px;padding:0px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor #yiv6196367788ov
li a {
font-size:130%;text-decoration:none;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor #yiv6196367788ov
li {
font-size:77%;list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-sponsor #yiv6196367788ov
ul {
margin:0;padding:0 0 0 8px;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-text {
font-family:Georgia;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-text p {
margin:0 0 1em 0;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-text tt {
font-size:120%;}

#yiv6196367788 #yiv6196367788ygrp-vital ul li:last-child {
border-right:none !important;
}
#yiv6196367788

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-04 20:22:03

mariewalsh2003

Hilary wrote re Thomas Witham:

"After 1483 he became Richard's close counsellor (confirmed by Horrox) and must have therefore been in Richard's circle for some time."

Marie responding:

And yet I've seen a claim that William., Bishop of Dromore, (who acted as suffragan to the Archbishop of York) was commissioned on 22 November 1480 to veil Thomas Witham's widow Agnes. The web reference was

http://lime.weeg.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/will_HTML/ will_thomaswithamofcornburgh.html

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-05 11:03:56

Hilary Jones

Hi Marie, I knew about the veiling by Bishop William but I have him dying on 15 Apr 1489 and Agnes in Jan 1491. Presumably these dates are from their tomb but could be someone's typo - a 9 for a 0? I'll look at it again though. Certainly, looking at it again in Horrox she calls him the 'duke's counsellor' so your 1480 could be right. I tried to find the last mention of him in the NA but the site is down. What I also didn't put is that at least one article has him as the brother of Hospitaller Henry Witham, but I'm finding him elusive to track down. Why that is co-incidental is that 'my' Alice Burgh also had a brother who was a Hospitaller. Do you think it was the problem that the Hospitallers were having in Rhodes in the early 1480s that may have made Richard make the remark about wanting to fight the infidel? H
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 4 October 2015, 20:22
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Hilary wrote re Thomas Witham:"After 1483 he became Richard's close counsellor (confirmed by Horrox) and must have therefore been in Richard's circle for some time."
Marie responding:And yet I've seen a claim that William., Bishop of Dromore, (who acted as suffragan to the Archbishop of York) was commissioned on 22 November 1480 to veil Thomas Witham's widow Agnes. The web reference was http://lime.weeg.uiowa.edu/~c030149a/will_HTML/ will_thomaswithamofcornburgh.html

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-05 15:45:53

mariewalsh2003

I see that Wikipedia has 22 April 1489!

I've just checked the index of wills in the York registry, and Thomas' will was proved on 22 April 1481 - so Wikipedia has first confused date of probate with date of death and then changed the 1 into a 9. Don't you just love Wikipedia?

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-05 16:08:57

Hilary Jones

Oh yes! And somebody else probably took it from wiki and perpetuated it - as did I once again from them! I do wonder if she took the veil at Ellerton though? I console myself with the fact that at least Richard did know Witham, who knew Stillington. H
From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, 5 October 2015, 15:45
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

I see that Wikipedia has 22 April 1489!
I've just checked the index of wills in the York registry, and Thomas' will was proved on 22 April 1481 - so Wikipedia has first confused date of probate with date of death and then changed the 1 into a 9. Don't you just love Wikipedia?

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-08 10:01:57

Hilary Jones

I found my data source. It was from an early history of the Thwengs so has probably been perpetuated from that into Wiki and throughout the world!
Couple of things:
1.Richard's continuing trust and friendship with those who had been Warwick's men and had perhaps fallen from grace somewhat with Edward seems to indicate that in Edward's second reign he was no longer his poodle and that the French pension dissention wasn't necessarily a one-off.
2.I'm in the process of looking at some of the rest of them. One is Thomas Gower who died at Bosworth with Richard. Does anyone know why in 1472 he was bound over in the sum of £100 not to harm Stillington? Seems the Bishop was still dabbling in Yorkshire more than I thought. H

From: "Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Monday, 5 October 2015, 16:08
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

Oh yes! And somebody else probably took it from wiki and perpetuated it - as did I once again from them! I do wonder if she took the veil at Ellerton though? I console myself with the fact that at least Richard did know Witham, who knew Stillington. H

From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Monday, 5 October 2015, 15:45
Subject: Re: Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

I see that Wikipedia has 22 April 1489!
I've just checked the index of wills in the York registry, and Thomas' will was proved on 22 April 1481 - so Wikipedia has first confused date of probate with date of death and then changed the 1 into a 9. Don't you just love Wikipedia?

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-08 19:59:06

ricard1an

Is he one of the Gowers of Settringham? I believe they were at Bosworth with Richard and I think there are family graves at Sheriff Hutton. I might be wrong as it is many years since I was in Sheriff Hutton. Sorry I don't know of any connection to Stillington.
Mary

Re: Stillington and a Possible Charitable Foundation

2015-10-08 22:45:16

ricard1an

Also I think there are Gowers of Stittenham too.

Richard III on Amazon

As an Amazon Associate, We earn from qualifying purchases.