Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-10 18:48:33

natusm

Greetings, all!

I am writing an alt-history of the Battle of Bosworth, describing how the battle might plausibly have been won by our dear king. I have just about every book on the subject, but there are a handful of nobles who were MIA, and I have no idea whether they were at Bosworth, or elsewhere on that day.

Any advice or tips on the whereabouts of the nobles below on August 22, 1485 would be deeply appreciated. Thanks!

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Edward Hastings, 2nd Baron Hastings, son of Sir William Hastings (executed by Richard III)

John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln

Edward de la Pole, d. 1485, archdeacon, brother to John de la Pole, Earl of Lincoln

George Talbot, 4th Earl of Shrewsbury

Edward Grey, 1st Viscount Lisle

William de Berkeley, Earl of Nottingham

John Blount, 3rd Baron Mountjoy

George Grey, 2nd Earl of Kent

Richard Woodville, brother of Queen Elizabeth Woodville

Thomas FitzAlan, 17th Earl of Arundel

Edmund de Ros, 10th Baron de Ros,

Thomas Scrope, 6th Baron Scrope of Masham

John Bourchier, 2nd Baron Berners

Arthur Plantagenet, 1st Viscount Lisle, bastard son of Edward IV

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-12 00:32:27

mariewalsh2003

Hi,

I can manage a few offhand.

Lincoln almost certainly fought on Richard's side. The proclamation Henry sent to York after the battle listed Lincoln and Surrey as among the slain. But Surrey spent the next 4 years in the Tower, whereas Lincoln managed to get into Henry's good graces.

His brother Edward's whereabouts is not known. He was dead by 28 September, apparently, but may have died of the sweating sickness rather than at Bosworth. He may have been too young to fight in the battle as he was described in mid February 1484 as being in his 15th year (i.e. 14), and 16 was the standard minimum age for call-up. His birthday isn't known, unfortunately.

Arthur Plantagenet was, IMO, probably only a very small child at this time.

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-12 04:43:18

natusm

Thanks, Marie, I appreciate the help. I didn't know that age 16 was the minimum age for call-up.

Re Arthur Plantagenet, there are a range of dates as to when he was born, Wikipedia (not a sure source) gives between 1461 and 1475. But given that he lived until 1542 (dying in prison), it's likely the latter number. If so, he would have only been ten at Bosworth.

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-12 11:04:50

Hilary Jones

Scrope of Masham is cited in the Ballad of Bosworth Field as having been with Richard and that's logical, but so is Arundel, who we know had gone over to the other side by them. If you haven't got it, Michael Bennett's book on Bosworth shows just how difficult it is to tie down these people. H

From: "nvenice2@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, 12 February 2016, 4:43
Subject: Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

Thanks, Marie, I appreciate the help. I didn't know that age 16 was the minimum age for call-up.

Re Arthur Plantagenet, there are a range of dates as to when he was born, Wikipedia (not a sure source) gives between 1461 and 1475. But given that he lived until 1542 (dying in prison), it's likely the latter number. If so, he would have only been ten at Bosworth.

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-12 14:24:51

mariewalsh2003

Hi,

Re Arthur, look out for an article in the forthcoming Ricardian.

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-14 00:19:33

mariewalsh2003

Hi Hilary. Hope to come back on Morton soon. I'm trying to establish an ultimate source for the Turberville marriage though I agree it would make much better sense of Morton's success in enlisting the Turbervilles in his cause.

Re Arundel, do we really know he'd gone over to the other side? Is it possible he had merely stayed away because of old age? I think he would have been coming up to 68 at the time of Bosworth.

To our writer, if you look at commissions of array you find the commissioners were charged with mustering all able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60. There are quite a few published docs evidencing Richard's preparations of Bosworth, in places like the Paston Letters and the Calendar of Patent Rolls.

I'd also second what Hilary says about the difficulty of pinning down where people were. You sometimes see long, confident lists of who fought on either side but they're not reliable.

Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

2016-02-16 09:59:57

Hilary Jones

Hi Marie - checking again I can see what's happened. Sir William Fitzalan, Lord Maltravers, was, as you quite rightly say, born in about 1417 and died in 1487. Sir Thomas Fitzalan, also afterwards Lord Maltravers was about the same age as Richard, went into exile with Henry and fought for Henry. My source, and I think it was a history of the Fitzalans, has mixed them up, which is not surprising given their natural alliance with the 'southern set'. Many apologies! H

From: mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, 14 February 2016, 0:19
Subject: Re: Re: Where were these nobles at Bosworth?

Hi Hilary. Hope to come back on Morton soon. I'm trying to establish an ultimate source for the Turberville marriage though I agree it would make much better sense of Morton's success in enlisting the Turbervilles in his cause.
Re Arundel, do we really know he'd gone over to the other side? Is it possible he had merely stayed away because of old age? I think he would have been coming up to 68 at the time of Bosworth.
To our writer, if you look at commissions of array you find the commissioners were charged with mustering all able-bodied men between the ages of 16 and 60. There are quite a few published docs evidencing Richard's preparations of Bosworth, in places like the Paston Letters and the Calendar of Patent Rolls.
I'd also second what Hilary says about the difficulty of pinning down where people were. You sometimes see long, confident lists of who fought on either side but they're not reliable.

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