Edward IV's henchmen?

There's a fascinating article in the current Ricardian by Anne F Sutton that illuminates some of Richard's missing years (between the "exiles" to Flanders). I'm curious about this section --

The end of Richard's sojourn in Warwick's household had to be organized with some tact once the earl's dissatisfaction with the king became an issue. An attachment to the king's own household of henchmen and the superior education afforded these youths may have followed, he could have been considered for the church or he could have attended an inn of court upon occasion and received some basic legal education that might account for his notable interest in the technicalities of the law and respect for its hierarchy; the heir of the Pembroke earldom was at Lincoln's Inn in 1468.

Do "we" know who any of these henchmen were? Or have any idea where their names might be found?

A J

I have just read it and found it fascinating.It was a "family history" moment that caught my eye. Margaret Duchess of Hungerford together with Richard at one point, were associated with the Botreaux Estates.My grandfather, whose family were from Devon, had cousins living at Botreaux Mill on the edge of Exmoor.I haven't ever been there, although my sister who lives in Cornwall, has.I believe my family on that side have farmed there for 1000 years, which is quite something to contemplate.The connection, however tenuous, with Richard makes it even more interesting.
Jess

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On 6 Jun 2016, at 04:15, ajhibbard@... [] <> wrote:

There's a fascinating article in the current Ricardian by Anne F Sutton that illuminates some of Richard's missing years (between the "exiles" to Flanders). I'm curious about this section --

The end of Richard's sojourn in Warwick's household had to be organized with some tact once the earl's dissatisfaction with the king became an issue. An attachment to the king's own household of henchmen and the superior education afforded these youths may have followed, he could have been considered for the church or he could have attended an inn of court upon occasion and received some basic legal education that might account for his notable interest in the technicalities of the law and respect for its hierarchy; the heir of the Pembroke earldom was at Lincoln's Inn in 1468.

Do "we" know who any of these henchmen were? Or have any idea where their names might be found?

A J

Hi AJ whilst doing my other digging I found you a henchman! He's Sir John Cheney, one of 'Richard's Rebels' (as another website calls them). He was knighted at the time of EW's coronation and was from Eastchurch in Kent, prime Woodville territory. He and two brothers, plus a cousin rebelled, were attainted in 1484, and defected to HT. Belief it or not the 'henchman' information was on the website of the church where he is buried. You get quite a lot of info from local archives. Can't see Richard in his household. I bet there were a lot of henchmen with Woodville connections; another thing to look at. And some no doubt with Hastings connections too. Can't find much about them in the normal textbooks which are better on courtiers. H
From: "ajhibbard@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Monday, 6 June 2016, 4:15
Subject: Edward IV's henchmen?

There's a fascinating article in the current Ricardian by Anne F Sutton that illuminates some of Richard's missing years (between the "exiles" to Flanders). I'm curious about this section -- The end of Richard's sojourn in Warwick's household had to be organized with some tact once the earl's dissatisfaction with the king became an issue. An attachment to the king's own household of henchmen and the superior education afforded these youths may have followed, he could have been considered for the church or he could have attended an inn of court upon occasion and received some basic legal education that might account for his notable interest in the technicalities of the law and respect for its hierarchy; the heir of the Pembroke earldom was at Lincoln's Inn in 1468.
Do "we" know who any of these henchmen were? Or have any idea where their names might be found?
A J

Thanks Hilary. I can see that one of these days I'm going to have to read something about henchmen, since the authors I've been looking at give different impressions. So much to learn, so little time...
A J

PS - According to Wikipedia (I know) another of Edward IV's henchmen was Thomas Howard.
A J

A J wrote: Thanks Hilary. I can see that one of these days I'm going to have to read something about henchmen, since the authors I've been looking at give different impressions. So much to learn, so little time...  Doug here: Perhaps it would be better to look at the term henchman as a sort of non-violent, usually non-noble, equivalent to the knights/nobility who formed the King's personal guard/troops during battles? If henchmen were usually of lower status, but still gentle, wouldn't that allow them to do and see things a better-known member of the nobility couldn't? I'm thinking here of keeping a finger on the pulse of the nation type thing. A noble would run the risk of being told what a speaker might think the noble wanted to hear; while a non-noble, if only because they *weren't* noble, would be better positioned to hear, and especially over-hear, conversations amongst the general population and get a better sense of what public opinion there was. A noble, unless going around incognito, simply wouldn't be able to do that, especially a well-known one and even more so if that noble was in his, so to speak, home territory where he stood a greater chance of being recognized. Of course, it's entirely possible that henchmen earned its modern connotation through actions that were, um, less than legal... Doug
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Thanks Doug.
So far it seems we've only identified two - one non-noble (Cheney) one whom I presume is considered noble (Howard). I've also read that originally they were men meant to run beside the king (but I probably have mangled this, should know by now that I need to grab stuff when I first come across it, saves so much time trying to find it again.
Then there's this from The Ricardian Vol VIII, No. 100 March 1988; p 20-25

'And to be delivered to the Lord Richard Duke of Gloucester, the other brother...'

Anne F Sutton

It is clear that both boys had their own attendants and households though they received much, but not necessarily all, of their goods from the King's Household, in this instance the Great Wardrobe. It is also likely that Richard's household was not a substantial one before the end of 14625 and was certainly not as large as that of Clarence who was, after all, the King's heir. They had henchmen, youths of a like age and of good birth who were educated with them. Clarence had four henchmen and probably Richard had the same number by mid 1462 at least. Clarence also had a herald and two footmen; Richard had 'servants' unspecified.6

A J

Ah not quite so hopeless as I thought. I did actually "file" this regarding Edward IV's henchmen

A R Myers The Household of Edward IV
p 246 The Black Book. Notes
[fn] 199 Henchmen were squire or pages of honour who walked or rode beside king in processions, progresses, etc; office abolished by Elizabeth I in 1565 (E Lodge, Illustrations of British History (London, 1791). I. 358). O 1445 had specified 6 henchmen for king (§ 35 (xiv)), O 1454 allowed only 3 (Nicolas, VI 233). Usual number of henchmen under Edward IV and Richard III seems to have been 7 for king (Nicolas, Great Wardrobe Account of 1480, in Privy Purse Expenses of Elizabeth of York, p 167; F Grose, Antiquarian Repertory (London, 1779), II. 254). Richard's Queen Anne had 5 for her coronation (Grose, op cit, II. 258); often 3 in a noble household (e g Northumberland Household Book, p 254 and Manners and Household Expenses, p 234)

A J

A J wrote: Thanks Doug. So far it seems we've only identified two - one non-noble (Cheney) one whom I presume is considered noble (Howard). I've also read that originally they were men meant to run beside the king (but I probably have mangled this, should know by now that I need to grab stuff when I first come across it, saves so much time trying to find it again. Then there's this from The Ricardian Vol VIII, No. 100 March 1988; p 20-25

'And to be delivered to the Lord Richard Duke of Gloucester, the other brother...'

Anne F Sutton

It is clear that both boys had their own attendants and households though they received much, but not necessarily all, of their goods from the King's Household, in this instance the Great Wardrobe. It is also likely that Richard's household was not a substantial one before the end of 14625 and was certainly not as large as that of Clarence who was, after all, the King's heir. They had henchmen, youths of a like age and of good birth who were educated with them. Clarence had four henchmen and probably Richard had the same number by mid 1462 at least. Clarence also had a herald and two footmen; Richard had 'servants' unspecified.6

Doug here:

Thank you for this and your other message! I stooped to using the internet and discovered that, at least according to the Oxford Dictionary, henchman is from Old English via Middle English and likely meant something on the order of groom. By the late Middle Ages the term seems to have been applied to a squire or page of honour to a person of rank and the examples above and in your other post fit exactly.

Apparently, a henchman was the medieval equivalent to someone today's PA (personal assistant) or, for younger folk, their posse. It also occurred to me that, unless there was some sort of regular turnover, those who made up a young royal's or noble's henchmen would stand a very good chance of becoming, as close as any difference in rank might allow in a very rank-conscious age, the young royal's or noble's friend/s in later life. Which would make the position well sought after. Or so one might think, anyway. And, if that were the case, then one would imagine that somewhere there are/were lists or such-like of henchmen for Richard and his nephews.

If, on the other hand, and especially at the royal level, the position was more of a sign of favor or honor bestowed by the monarch, then there'd be a whole lot of people named, at various times, as being a royal henchman. Yet, once again, where are the lists of those appointed to such an honor? Or would a better (read: more likely) method of discovering who was whose henchman be wills and bequests where the testator made mention of receiving the king's favor by being, during some period or other, the king's henchman?

BTW, weren't most horses led during processions by someone walking with them? Thus freeing the rider to sit there and look magnificent? Which would explain why there were no henchwomen. Not that a woman couldn't lead a horse in a procession, at least not physically, but rather her dress might make it difficult to control her own movements as well as the horse's, what with cobblestone paving (and whatever might be on the cobblestones...).

Doug

(It would also explain why Elizabeth I abolished the position. If there ever was a monarch who never wanted it to appear she was being led...)

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AJ wrote:

"I can see that one of these days I'm going to have to read something about henchmen, since the authors I've been looking at give different impressions. So much to learn, so little time..."

Carol responds:

For starters, the etymology is interesting. Here's a snippet from Online Etymology, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=henchman


"henchman (n.) http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=henchman&allowed_in_frame=0 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=henchman "mid-14c., hengestman, later henshman (mid-15c.) "high-ranking servant (usually of gentle birth), attendant upon a king, nobleman, etc.," originally "groom," probably from man http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=man&allowed_in_frame=0 (n.) + Old English hengest "horse, stallion, gelding," from Proto-Germanic *hangistas (source also of Old Frisian hengst, Dutch hengest, German Hengst "stallion"), perhaps literally "best at springing," from PIE *kenku- (source also of Greek kekiein "to gush forth;" Lithuanian sokti "to jump, dance;" Breton kazek "a mare," literally "that which belongs to a stallion").

"Perhaps modeled on Old Norse compound hesta-maðr "horse-boy, groom.""

As I understand it, in Edward's and Richard's time, a henchman was a page or squire. Sir James Tyrell was Richard's master of henchman as well as master of the horse, the former being the ideal position for someone who wanted to spirit away two boys disguised as pages and hide them on his own lands or in Burgundy. (I don't know who held that position under Edward.)

Carol

Carol

Carol,Thanks, that is particularly interesting for me, because the name of the village in which I live comes from the same root - Hest Bank. I knew that it came from the word for horse, but had never researched "henchman". The village is the location on one side of the bay from which horses crossed the sand to the opposite bank (where Lambert Simnel landed). This saved a long journey around the bay.
Kind regardsDavid



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On Tuesday, June 14, 2016, 00:23, justcarol67@... [] <> wrote:

AJ wrote:

"I can see that one of these days I'm going to have to read something about henchmen, since the authors I've been looking at give different impressions. So much to learn, so little time..."

Carol responds:

For starters, the etymology is interesting. Here's a snippet from Online Etymology, Online Etymology Dictionary

Online Etymology Dictionary

"henchman (n.) Online Etymology Dictionary
Online Etymology Dictionary

the definition of henchman
the definition of henchman

Henchman definition, an unscrupulous and ruthless subordinate, especially a criminal: The leader of the gang went everywhere accompanied by his henchmen. See more.

ks"mid-14c., hengestman, later henshman (mid-15c.) "high-ranking servant (usually of gentle birth), attendant upon a king, nobleman, etc.," originally "groom," probably from man Online Etymology Dictionary
Online Etymology Dictionary

(n.) + Old English hengest "horse, stallion, gelding," from Proto-Germanic *hangistas (source also of Old Frisian hengst, Dutch hengest, German Hengst "stallion"), perhaps literally "best at springing," from PIE *kenku- (source also of Greek kekiein "to gush forth;" Lithuanian sokti "to jump, dance;" Breton kazek "a mare," literally "that which belongs to a stallion").

"Perhaps modeled on Old Norse compound hesta-maðr "horse-boy, groom.""

As I understand it, in Edward's and Richard's time, a henchman was a page or squire. Sir James Tyrell was Richard's master of henchman as well as master of the horse, the former being the ideal position for someone who wanted to spirit away two boys disguised as pages and hide them on his own lands or in Burgundy. (I don't know who held that position under Edward.)

Carol

Carol

Carol,I forgot to add that the person who held the position of master of horse to Edward IV was the very same John Cheney mentioned by Hilary.
RegardsDavid


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On 14 Jun 2016, 00:23:46, justcarol67@... [] wrote:

AJ wrote:

"I can see that one of these days I'm going to have to read something about henchmen, since the authors I've been looking at give different impressions. So much to learn, so little time..."

Carol responds:

For starters, the etymology is interesting. Here's a snippet from Online Etymology, http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=henchman

"henchman (n.) http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=henchman&allowed_in_frame=0 http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=henchman "mid-14c., hengestman, later henshman (mid-15c.) "high-ranking servant (usually of gentle birth), attendant upon a king, nobleman, etc.," originally "groom," probably from man http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=man&allowed_in_frame=0 (n.) + Old English hengest "horse, stallion, gelding," from Proto-Germanic *hangistas (source also of Old Frisian hengst, Dutch hengest, German Hengst "stallion"), perhaps literally "best at springing," from PIE *kenku- (source also of Greek kekiein "to gush forth;" Lithuanian sokti "to jump, dance;" Breton kazek "a mare," literally "that which belongs to a stallion").

"Perhaps modeled on Old Norse compound hesta-maðr "horse-boy, groom.""

As I understand it, in Edward's and Richard's time, a henchman was a page or squire. Sir James Tyrell was Richard's master of henchman as well as master of the horse, the former being the ideal position for someone who wanted to spirit away two boys disguised as pages and hide them on his own lands or in Burgundy. (I don't know who held that position under Edward.)

Carol

Carol