Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
1. Resistance of Joana.2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Karen O karenoder4@... []<mailto:>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:08 AM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
I have some doubts about Joana's story, which comes from the testimony of one of the nuns at Aveiro (a relative of Joana's), which she gave in support of the campaign to have Joana canonised. This testimony suggests J. had turned down offers from the future Charles VIII of France and from Maximilian, although the dates don't work (and, anyway, wasn't Max her uncle?).
Joana was according to this testimony already living in the convent at Aveiro in 1485. She never did take the veil so whether she really wished to do so must be open to question.
The nun says that she did consent to marrying Richard, but has to explain this away, which she does by claiming that Joana had had a premonitory dream in which an angel told her Richard was about to die.
Marie
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
However, the Suplemento de Cortes, quoted by Elaien Sanceau in her bio of Joao, gives evidence of Joana letting her father Afonso know, in 1471, that she wanted to become a nun; at that point her father is quoted as saying: "in cases such as this, people ought not to be constrained from using their liberty and free will." Joana was sent to Odivelas,near Lisbon, to live as a secular inmate. The Suplemento also records the reaction of Cortes representatives objecting to this. Cortes delegates went to Odivelas, and Joana wouldn't meet with him, as she was in retreat. In August 1472, she transferred to Aveiro, where the rule was stricter. She apparently became a novice, but illness stopped her progress and she left the convent about a year later. By 1475, she was in Aveiro again. She also had charge of her brother's illegitimate son, Jorge Duke of Coimbra, born in 1481. The meeting concerning Richard apparently took place at Alcobaca, north of Lisbon and south of Aveiro.
Maximilian I was the son of Leonor of Portugal, who was Afonso's sister, so he and Joana were cousins. I'm not finding any "official" listing of a match attempt between him and Joana, but the idea of cousins marrying within royal circles is common. I'm not finding anything between Charles VIII and Joana either, but I do know he was betrothed to Margaret of Austria, Max's daughter. She was brought up in France for several years, then thrown over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then betrothed (and married) to Juan, only son of Isabel and Fernando. He died at age 19. On her way to Spain, Margaret was caught in a ferocious sea storm, and allegedly composed a rhyme which translates to "Here lies Margaret, the willing bride./Twice married, but a virgin when she died."
Sanceau does mention that Joao looked into Joana marrying the Diogo, duke of Viseu. His mother was Beatriz de Viseu, Afonso's cousin. Her sister Isabel of Portugal married Juan II of Castile and was the mother of Isabel the Catholic. She and Isabel the Catholic were instrumental in finalizing the truce that ended the war between Portugal and Castile after Isabel claimed the Castilian title. (If you think England's history is complicated and entangled, don't go near the Iberian Peninsula!)
Anyway, I'll keep looking to see what evidence there is of Joana's marriage proposals.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 9:51 AM, mariewalsh2003 <[email protected]> wrote:
I have some doubts about Joana's story, which comes from the testimony of one of the nuns at Aveiro (a relative of Joana's), which she gave in support of the campaign to have Joana canonised. This testimony suggests J. had turned down offers from the future Charles VIII of France and from Maximilian, although the dates don't work (and, anyway, wasn't Max her uncle?).
Joana was according to this testimony already living in the convent at Aveiro in 1485. She never did take the veil so whether she really wished to do so must be open to question.
The nun says that she did consent to marrying Richard, but has to explain this away, which she does by claiming that Joana had had a premonitory dream in which an angel told her Richard was about to die.
Marie
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
The first definiton of ýevadeý in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
ý1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.ý
I donýt see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be ýevasioný of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
ýOn 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a kingýs second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal ý for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John IIýs cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).ý
Then Ms. Carson continues:
ýNegotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
ýA dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of ýa beautiful young maný who told her that Richard ýhad gone from among the livingý. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richardýs death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.ý
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendallýs biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Rossýs more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it ýstrains credulityý to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying ýa blood-stained usurper.ý
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, ýHow Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III.ý The word ýavoidý does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email ý jltournier60@...
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailto:>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...> []" <<mailto:>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
"I take the story with a big grain of salt too (that's why I called it a legend)."
Carol responds:
I agree. Any story involving dreams (such as Richard's supposed dream before Bosworth), portents, or prophecies is almost certainly invented after the fact (unless it's something along the lines of Edward IV's interpretation of the parhelion, which, although *we* don't believe the interpretation, may well have convinced his men).
Maria wrote:
"Sanceau does mention that Joao looked into Joana marrying the Diogo, duke of Viseu. His mother was Beatriz de Viseu, Afonso's cousin. Her sister Isabel of Portugal married Juan II of Castile and was the mother of Isabel the Catholic"
Carol responds:
I have only a slight knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese history, so pardon the simplicity of this question. Why is Isabella (as we in the U.S. were taught to call her) referred to as Isabel the Catholic (Isabel la Católica)? Also she and her husband together are called "the Catholic monarchs." Given that all the monarchs in Europe were Catholic at this time, those strike me as odd titles. Is there some other Isabel, queen of Spain, who *wasn't* Catholic? Or is it simply because Catholicism was so important to her, and she and Ferdinand/Fernando were responsible for expelling the Moors and (unconverted) Jews from Spain?
Carol
Carol
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... [] <> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
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Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailto:>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: <mailto:>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60@...> [] <<mailto:>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailto:jltournier60@...>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...> []<mailto:<mailto:>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: <mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...><mailto:ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...><mailto:karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...>> [] <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...><mailto:ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...><mailto:ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...><mailto:karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...>> [] <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...><mailto:ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>> []" <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...><mailto:ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbronte@...>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...><mailto:karenoder4@...<mailto:karenoder4@...>> [] <<mailto:><mailto:<mailto:>>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. =
However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...< mailto:jltournier60@hotmail. com> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...< mailto:jltournier60@hotmail. com>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@ gmail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@ gmail.com>> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@ gmail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@ gmail.com>> []" <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@ gmail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com><mailto:richardiiisocietyf [email protected]<mailto:ri chardiiisocietyforum@ yahoogroups.com>>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
"The Catholic Kings" was a title bestowed on Isabel and Fernando in 1494, by a Papal Bull courtesy of Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia/Borja, and originally from Valencia). It was in recognition of all the things accomplished by 1492, including the completion of the Reconquista, and the expulsion of the Jews. Interesting point is an international implication of Isabel of equal footing with Fernando. Goes nicely with their motto of "Tanto Monta, Monta Tanto, Isabel Como Fernando". This motto was composed soon after Isabel took the Castilian throne, in 1474 (there was a rival, Juana "la Beltraneja", but more on that soap opera another time). To make a long story short, Fernando and she had a major confrontation about who was actually in charge of what, to the extent that Fernando was set to pick up his toys and go home. a contract mitigating some of the harsher aspects of an original one was issued, and the motto evolved out of that. In fact, the two had a whole battery of brands displaying their partnership. The most famous is the logo of the yoke ("Y" for "yugo"= "Ysabel") and the arrows ("F" for "flechas" = Fernando) tied by the Gordian Knot. Isabel, whose childhood had taken place far from court, and who was a skilled weaver, made all of Fernando's shirts. And at one point, during a time when they were separated, Fernando sent a letter complaining that Isabel hadn't written, and that now he knew who loved who more because he was writing first.
Thoughts on Joana and the Portuguese marriage proposals:
Elizabeth of York's prospective husband was Manuel. He was the nephew of Afonso V, being the younger son of Afonso's brother Duarte. He was also the younger brother of the Diogo I mentioned in this thread, mentioned as a prospective and rejected husband for Joana. In 1484, Manuel's station was pretty much that. However. Afonso had one surviving son, Joao II. Joao had one legitimate son, Alfonso. Alfonso married Isabel Jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. He was killed in a riding accident in 1491. Diogo, rebelling against cousin Joao, was accused of treason and stabbed to death in 1484 by Joao personally. This left Manuel as the heir to Portugal, and he became Manuel I in 1495. He married his cousin's widow Isabel in 1497; she died in 1498, so he married her sister Maria in 1500. She died in 1517, whereupon he married Eleanor of Austria, who was the daughter of the second daughter of the Catholic Kings, Juana. (I told you Iberia was complicated!). What this means is, all other things being equal, if Manuel had married Elizabeth of York, she would have become queen of Portugal; and there would have been no marriage between Portugal and Castile/Aragon after Alfonso's fatal riding accident.
Joana was the same age as Richard, just about half a year older. In 1484, she was 32 years old. This means she would have been mature for childbearing. Richard would more than likely have known this, so he was apparently *not* looking for children in this second marriage. He possibly *did* know about Joana's stint as regent during her father's and brother's campaign in Africa, and likely knew about her religious preferences. So he would have reason to assume he'd be getting woman who was: intelligent, pious, and stubborn, and, if he knew about her caring for little illegitimate Jorge, he could assume other character traits. He seemed to be shopping for a partner rather than a broodmare. Similarly, if Joana also understood that her value in the marriage market wasn't as a mother, and if she knew anything about the situation in England, it just may have been a tempting possibility to join up with a man whose legislation seemed to be valuing trial by jury and the attempt to allow books into the country, and whose physical demands on her might be minimal. Likely she would have known about the Tudor threat. Maybe the legend about the dream has a germ in her saying that she would be open to the marriage after this threat had been resolved.
What this also seems to imply, going back to the question of English succession, is that Richard possibly already had a successor in mind and wasn't particularly interested in having other children himself. And might this have been Edward of Warwick?
Some spouting.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm in a meeting till late, nutvwill spout about the catholic kings at length tomorrow!
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. =
However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com<mailto:richardiiiso [email protected]>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>> wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>> wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>> wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>> wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>< mailto:@ yahoogroups.com<mailto:richard iiisocietyforum@yahoogroups. com>>> wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
//snip//
"BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand
were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was
like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like
Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it
means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church.
I think. I'll try to double check later."
Doug here:
According to Wikipedia, the title was bestowed by Pope Alexander VI on
Isabella and Ferdinand in 1494 "in recognition of of their defence of the
Catholic faith within their realms." Granada, the last Moorish kingdom in
the peninsula, was defeated and absorbed by Castile in 1492, so that likely
also had something to do with the Pope's actions.
The link is:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Monarchs
Doug
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
On Jun 23, 2017 9:58 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <> wrote:
Hi all, as promised:
"The Catholic Kings" was a title bestowed on Isabel and Fernando in 1494, by a Papal Bull courtesy of Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia/Borja, and originally from Valencia). It was in recognition of all the things accomplished by 1492, including the completion of the Reconquista, and the expulsion of the Jews. Interesting point is an international implication of Isabel of equal footing with Fernando. Goes nicely with their motto of "Tanto Monta, Monta Tanto, Isabel Como Fernando". This motto was composed soon after Isabel took the Castilian throne, in 1474 (there was a rival, Juana "la Beltraneja", but more on that soap opera another time). To make a long story short, Fernando and she had a major confrontation about who was actually in charge of what, to the extent that Fernando was set to pick up his toys and go home. a contract mitigating some of the harsher aspects of an original one was issued, and the motto evolved out of that. In fact, the two had a whole battery of brands displaying their partnership. The most famous is the logo of the yoke ("Y" for "yugo"= "Ysabel") and the arrows ("F" for "flechas" = Fernando) tied by the Gordian Knot. Isabel, whose childhood had taken place far from court, and who was a skilled weaver, made all of Fernando's shirts. And at one point, during a time when they were separated, Fernando sent a letter complaining that Isabel hadn't written, and that now he knew who loved who more because he was writing first.
Thoughts on Joana and the Portuguese marriage proposals:
Elizabeth of York's prospective husband was Manuel. He was the nephew of Afonso V, being the younger son of Afonso's brother Duarte. He was also the younger brother of the Diogo I mentioned in this thread, mentioned as a prospective and rejected husband for Joana. In 1484, Manuel's station was pretty much that. However. Afonso had one surviving son, Joao II. Joao had one legitimate son, Alfonso. Alfonso married Isabel Jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. He was killed in a riding accident in 1491. Diogo, rebelling against cousin Joao, was accused of treason and stabbed to death in 1484 by Joao personally. This left Manuel as the heir to Portugal, and he became Manuel I in 1495. He married his cousin's widow Isabel in 1497; she died in 1498, so he married her sister Maria in 1500. She died in 1517, whereupon he married Eleanor of Austria, who was the daughter of the second daughter of the Catholic Kings, Juana. (I told you Iberia was complicated!). What this means is, all other things being equal, if Manuel had married Elizabeth of York, she would have become queen of Portugal; and there would have been no marriage between Portugal and Castile/Aragon after Alfonso's fatal riding accident.
Joana was the same age as Richard, just about half a year older. In 1484, she was 32 years old. This means she would have been mature for childbearing. Richard would more than likely have known this, so he was apparently *not* looking for children in this second marriage. He possibly *did* know about Joana's stint as regent during her father's and brother's campaign in Africa, and likely knew about her religious preferences. So he would have reason to assume he'd be getting woman who was: intelligent, pious, and stubborn, and, if he knew about her caring for little illegitimate Jorge, he could assume other character traits. He seemed to be shopping for a partner rather than a broodmare. Similarly, if Joana also understood that her value in the marriage market wasn't as a mother, and if she knew anything about the situation in England, it just may have been a tempting possibility to join up with a man whose legislation seemed to be valuing trial by jury and the attempt to allow books into the country, and whose physical demands on her might be minimal. Likely she would have known about the Tudor threat. Maybe the legend about the dream has a germ in her saying that she would be open to the marriage after this threat had been resolved.
What this also seems to imply, going back to the question of English succession, is that Richard possibly already had a successor in mind and wasn't particularly interested in having other children himself. And might this have been Edward of Warwick?
Some spouting.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm in a meeting till late, nutvwill spout about the catholic kings at length tomorrow!
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. =
However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com<mailto:richardiiiso [email protected]>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]><mail to:@yaho ogroups.com<mailto:richardiiis [email protected]>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Nor did I mean to imply that he would refuse the marriage bed, only that it might be an assumption that again, it might not have been a priority in this particular relationship.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
I find the "Richard wouldn't want more children difficult to believe"She was the most senior Lancastrian Princess is all. She was very beautiful. The sex lives of Kings were no private matter and children and bedding with your Consort were a royal duty. The privy council would have something to say if Richard refused the marriage bed. I would like to imagine him as a more modern man but I think he would probably be typical of his time.
On Jun 23, 2017 9:58 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi all, as promised:
"The Catholic Kings" was a title bestowed on Isabel and Fernando in 1494, by a Papal Bull courtesy of Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia/Borja, and originally from Valencia). It was in recognition of all the things accomplished by 1492, including the completion of the Reconquista, and the expulsion of the Jews. Interesting point is an international implication of Isabel of equal footing with Fernando. Goes nicely with their motto of "Tanto Monta, Monta Tanto, Isabel Como Fernando". This motto was composed soon after Isabel took the Castilian throne, in 1474 (there was a rival, Juana "la Beltraneja", but more on that soap opera another time). To make a long story short, Fernando and she had a major confrontation about who was actually in charge of what, to the extent that Fernando was set to pick up his toys and go home. a contract mitigating some of the harsher aspects of an original one was issued, and the motto evolved out of that. In fact, the two had a whole battery of brands displaying their partnership. The most famous is the logo of the yoke ("Y" for "yugo"= "Ysabel") and the arrows ("F" for "flechas" = Fernando) tied by the Gordian Knot. Isabel, whose childhood had taken place far from court, and who was a skilled weaver, made all of Fernando's shirts. And at one point, during a time when they were separated, Fernando sent a letter complaining that Isabel hadn't written, and that now he knew who loved who more because he was writing first.
Thoughts on Joana and the Portuguese marriage proposals:
Elizabeth of York's prospective husband was Manuel. He was the nephew of Afonso V, being the younger son of Afonso's brother Duarte. He was also the younger brother of the Diogo I mentioned in this thread, mentioned as a prospective and rejected husband for Joana. In 1484, Manuel's station was pretty much that. However. Afonso had one surviving son, Joao II. Joao had one legitimate son, Alfonso. Alfonso married Isabel Jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. He was killed in a riding accident in 1491. Diogo, rebelling against cousin Joao, was accused of treason and stabbed to death in 1484 by Joao personally. This left Manuel as the heir to Portugal, and he became Manuel I in 1495. He married his cousin's widow Isabel in 1497; she died in 1498, so he married her sister Maria in 1500. She died in 1517, whereupon he married Eleanor of Austria, who was the daughter of the second daughter of the Catholic Kings, Juana. (I told you Iberia was complicated!). What this means is, all other things being equal, if Manuel had married Elizabeth of York, she would have become queen of Portugal; and there would have been no marriage between Portugal and Castile/Aragon after Alfonso's fatal riding accident.
Joana was the same age as Richard, just about half a year older. In 1484, she was 32 years old. This means she would have been mature for childbearing. Richard would more than likely have known this, so he was apparently *not* looking for children in this second marriage. He possibly *did* know about Joana's stint as regent during her father's and brother's campaign in Africa, and likely knew about her religious preferences. So he would have reason to assume he'd be getting woman who was: intelligent, pious, and stubborn, and, if he knew about her caring for little illegitimate Jorge, he could assume other character traits. He seemed to be shopping for a partner rather than a broodmare. Similarly, if Joana also understood that her value in the marriage market wasn't as a mother, and if she knew anything about the situation in England, it just may have been a tempting possibility to join up with a man whose legislation seemed to be valuing trial by jury and the attempt to allow books into the country, and whose physical demands on her might be minimal. Likely she would have known about the Tudor threat. Maybe the legend about the dream has a germ in her saying that she would be open to the marriage after this threat had been resolved.
What this also seems to imply, going back to the question of English succession, is that Richard possibly already had a successor in mind and wasn't particularly interested in having other children himself. And might this have been Edward of Warwick?
Some spouting.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm in a meeting till late, nutvwill spout about the catholic kings at length tomorrow!
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. =
However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com<mailto:richardiiiso [email protected]>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]><mail to:@yaho ogroups.com<mailto:richardiiis [email protected]>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
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Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Romane
---In , <ejbronte@...> wrote :
The thing that makes me question whether children were a priority is Joana's age, as I mentioned. She was 32, mature for the time. If Lancastrian blood was a concern, in 1484, there was also Isabel jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. She was born in 1470, making her 14 in 1484, and Catherine of Lancaster was her great grandmother on her mother's side (this was one of the attractions of Isabel Jr.'s sister Catherine of Aragon). I didn't say Richard wouldn't want more children, but that, in looking at his choice, that children weren't the main concern.
Nor did I mean to imply that he would refuse the marriage bed, only that it might be an assumption that again, it might not have been a priority in this particular relationship.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
I find the "Richard wouldn't want more children difficult to believe"She was the most senior Lancastrian Princess is all. She was very beautiful. The sex lives of Kings were no private matter and children and bedding with your Consort were a royal duty. The privy council would have something to say if Richard refused the marriage bed. I would like to imagine him as a more modern man but I think he would probably be typical of his time.
On Jun 23, 2017 9:58 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi all, as promised:
"The Catholic Kings" was a title bestowed on Isabel and Fernando in 1494, by a Papal Bull courtesy of Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia/Borja, and originally from Valencia). It was in recognition of all the things accomplished by 1492, including the completion of the Reconquista, and the expulsion of the Jews. Interesting point is an international implication of Isabel of equal footing with Fernando. Goes nicely with their motto of "Tanto Monta, Monta Tanto, Isabel Como Fernando". This motto was composed soon after Isabel took the Castilian throne, in 1474 (there was a rival, Juana "la Beltraneja", but more on that soap opera another time). To make a long story short, Fernando and she had a major confrontation about who was actually in charge of what, to the extent that Fernando was set to pick up his toys and go home. a contract mitigating some of the harsher aspects of an original one was issued, and the motto evolved out of that. In fact, the two had a whole battery of brands displaying their partnership. The most famous is the logo of the yoke ("Y" for "yugo"= "Ysabel") and the arrows ("F" for "flechas" = Fernando) tied by the Gordian Knot. Isabel, whose childhood had taken place far from court, and who was a skilled weaver, made all of Fernando's shirts. And at one point, during a time when they were separated, Fernando sent a letter complaining that Isabel hadn't written, and that now he knew who loved who more because he was writing first.
Thoughts on Joana and the Portuguese marriage proposals:
Elizabeth of York's prospective husband was Manuel. He was the nephew of Afonso V, being the younger son of Afonso's brother Duarte. He was also the younger brother of the Diogo I mentioned in this thread, mentioned as a prospective and rejected husband for Joana. In 1484, Manuel's station was pretty much that. However. Afonso had one surviving son, Joao II. Joao had one legitimate son, Alfonso. Alfonso married Isabel Jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. He was killed in a riding accident in 1491. Diogo, rebelling against cousin Joao, was accused of treason and stabbed to death in 1484 by Joao personally. This left Manuel as the heir to Portugal, and he became Manuel I in 1495. He married his cousin's widow Isabel in 1497; she died in 1498, so he married her sister Maria in 1500. She died in 1517, whereupon he married Eleanor of Austria, who was the daughter of the second daughter of the Catholic Kings, Juana. (I told you Iberia was complicated!). What this means is, all other things being equal, if Manuel had married Elizabeth of York, she would have become queen of Portugal; and there would have been no marriage between Portugal and Castile/Aragon after Alfonso's fatal riding accident.
Joana was the same age as Richard, just about half a year older. In 1484, she was 32 years old. This means she would have been mature for childbearing. Richard would more than likely have known this, so he was apparently *not* looking for children in this second marriage. He possibly *did* know about Joana's stint as regent during her father's and brother's campaign in Africa, and likely knew about her religious preferences. So he would have reason to assume he'd be getting woman who was: intelligent, pious, and stubborn, and, if he knew about her caring for little illegitimate Jorge, he could assume other character traits. He seemed to be shopping for a partner rather than a broodmare. Similarly, if Joana also understood that her value in the marriage market wasn't as a mother, and if she knew anything about the situation in England, it just may have been a tempting possibility to join up with a man whose legislation seemed to be valuing trial by jury and the attempt to allow books into the country, and whose physical demands on her might be minimal. Likely she would have known about the Tudor threat. Maybe the legend about the dream has a germ in her saying that she would be open to the marriage after this threat had been resolved.
What this also seems to imply, going back to the question of English succession, is that Richard possibly already had a successor in mind and wasn't particularly interested in having other children himself. And might this have been Edward of Warwick?
Some spouting.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm in a meeting till late, nutvwill spout about the catholic kings at length tomorrow!
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. =
However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...>
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com<mailto:richardiiiso [email protected]>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]><mail to:@yaho ogroups.com<mailto:richardiiis [email protected]>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
------------------------------ ------
Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
I'm no expert on this but Richard was quite an outward looking person as shown by his remarks on wanting to fight the infidel. Brampton/Duarte was a merchant made rich by international trade. He would no doubt have told Richard about the Portuguese expeditions to Africa and the curiosities and riches that brought. That would have brought immense prestige to England too if they became involved as partners in this. Richard could well have had an eye to this.
It's such a shame. Instead we were stuck in darkness with the Winter King and his heir for decades. H
From: romanenemo <[email protected]>
To:
Sent: Friday, 23 June 2017, 19:36
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Yes, one can wonder a bit why he would choose a woman who was very far from her prime according to the standards of the time. Children had to be a main concern for Richard, he needed a heir to secure his throne.On another hand, Joanna seems to have been a very strong, capable and independent woman. She could have been a very good queen of England, a real companion for Richard. Maybe he wanted that, and not a child bride. Her piety might have appealed to him, as he was very pious himself.Besides, she was still at an age when she could have children. Richard himself was born when his mother was 37. People of the time might not have been aware of the fact that it's more difficult to have a first child after 35.
Romane
---In , <ejbronte@...> wrote :
The thing that makes me question whether children were a priority is Joana's age, as I mentioned. She was 32, mature for the time. If Lancastrian blood was a concern, in 1484, there was also Isabel jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. She was born in 1470, making her 14 in 1484, and Catherine of Lancaster was her great grandmother on her mother's side (this was one of the attractions of Isabel Jr.'s sister Catherine of Aragon). I didn't say Richard wouldn't want more children, but that, in looking at his choice, that children weren't the main concern.
Nor did I mean to imply that he would refuse the marriage bed, only that it might be an assumption that again, it might not have been a priority in this particular relationship.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Fri, Jun 23, 2017 at 11:14 AM, Karen O karenoder4@... [] <> wrote:
I find the "Richard wouldn't want more children difficult to believe"She was the most senior Lancastrian Princess is all. She was very beautiful. The sex lives of Kings were no private matter and children and bedding with your Consort were a royal duty. The privy council would have something to say if Richard refused the marriage bed. I would like to imagine him as a more modern man but I think he would probably be typical of his time.
On Jun 23, 2017 9:58 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hi all, as promised:
"The Catholic Kings" was a title bestowed on Isabel and Fernando in 1494, by a Papal Bull courtesy of Pope Alexander VI (a Borgia/Borja, and originally from Valencia). It was in recognition of all the things accomplished by 1492, including the completion of the Reconquista, and the expulsion of the Jews. Interesting point is an international implication of Isabel of equal footing with Fernando. Goes nicely with their motto of "Tanto Monta, Monta Tanto, Isabel Como Fernando". This motto was composed soon after Isabel took the Castilian throne, in 1474 (there was a rival, Juana "la Beltraneja", but more on that soap opera another time). To make a long story short, Fernando and she had a major confrontation about who was actually in charge of what, to the extent that Fernando was set to pick up his toys and go home. a contract mitigating some of the harsher aspects of an original one was issued, and the motto evolved out of that. In fact, the two had a whole battery of brands displaying their partnership. The most famous is the logo of the yoke ("Y" for "yugo"= "Ysabel") and the arrows ("F" for "flechas" = Fernando) tied by the Gordian Knot. Isabel, whose childhood had taken place far from court, and who was a skilled weaver, made all of Fernando's shirts. And at one point, during a time when they were separated, Fernando sent a letter complaining that Isabel hadn't written, and that now he knew who loved who more because he was writing first.
Thoughts on Joana and the Portuguese marriage proposals:
Elizabeth of York's prospective husband was Manuel. He was the nephew of Afonso V, being the younger son of Afonso's brother Duarte. He was also the younger brother of the Diogo I mentioned in this thread, mentioned as a prospective and rejected husband for Joana. In 1484, Manuel's station was pretty much that. However. Afonso had one surviving son, Joao II. Joao had one legitimate son, Alfonso. Alfonso married Isabel Jr., daughter of the Catholic Kings. He was killed in a riding accident in 1491. Diogo, rebelling against cousin Joao, was accused of treason and stabbed to death in 1484 by Joao personally. This left Manuel as the heir to Portugal, and he became Manuel I in 1495. He married his cousin's widow Isabel in 1497; she died in 1498, so he married her sister Maria in 1500. She died in 1517, whereupon he married Eleanor of Austria, who was the daughter of the second daughter of the Catholic Kings, Juana. (I told you Iberia was complicated!). What this means is, all other things being equal, if Manuel had married Elizabeth of York, she would have become queen of Portugal; and there would have been no marriage between Portugal and Castile/Aragon after Alfonso's fatal riding accident.
Joana was the same age as Richard, just about half a year older. In 1484, she was 32 years old. This means she would have been mature for childbearing. Richard would more than likely have known this, so he was apparently *not* looking for children in this second marriage. He possibly *did* know about Joana's stint as regent during her father's and brother's campaign in Africa, and likely knew about her religious preferences. So he would have reason to assume he'd be getting woman who was: intelligent, pious, and stubborn, and, if he knew about her caring for little illegitimate Jorge, he could assume other character traits. He seemed to be shopping for a partner rather than a broodmare. Similarly, if Joana also understood that her value in the marriage market wasn't as a mother, and if she knew anything about the situation in England, it just may have been a tempting possibility to join up with a man whose legislation seemed to be valuing trial by jury and the attempt to allow books into the country, and whose physical demands on her might be minimal. Likely she would have known about the Tudor threat. Maybe the legend about the dream has a germ in her saying that she would be open to the marriage after this threat had been resolved.
What this also seems to imply, going back to the question of English succession, is that Richard possibly already had a successor in mind and wasn't particularly interested in having other children himself. And might this have been Edward of Warwick?
Some spouting.
Mariaejbronte@...
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 5:29 PM, Maria Torres <ejbronte@...> wrote:
Hi all, I'm in a meeting till late, nutvwill spout about the catholic kings at length tomorrow!
I agree it looks like joana did decide not to reject Richard's proposal. Will spout more on that tomorrow too.
On Jun 22, 2017 5:23 PM, "Johanne Tournier jltournier60@... []" <@yahoog roups.com> wrote:
Thanks, Maria, for the information about Joanna seeking from the age of 19 to join a convent. Nevertheless, even given what Marie writes, it appears that Joanna *did* agree to marry Richard. Whether Joanna did have a vision or not is another matter. = However, I wouldn't be quite so ready to rule it out, having had a few experiences of things with no ready explanation in my own life. =
BTW, Carol, at one time I actually knew for sure why Isabella and Ferdinand were called Los Reyes Catolicos (my spelling may be bad). But that was like 50 years ago or so. Now I think it refers to something like Universal, rather than Catholic Church per se. That is actually what it means in the Roman Catholic Church, I believe the Universal Roman Church. I think. I'll try to double check later.
Johanne
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/ fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Maria Torres ejbronte@... []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com>
Sent: June 22, 2017 5:49 PM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks, Joanne and especially for the quotations from Annette.
According to the Portuguese Cortes records, Joana was petitioning to join a convent in 1471. Born in 1452 (February), that makes her 19 at the point that she reached this decision.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 3:24 PM, Johanne Tournier jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]>> wrote:
Hi, Maria
The first definiton of evade in my Oxford English Dictionary is as follows:
1 escape or avoid, especially by cunning or trickery.
I don't see any instance of cunning or trickery in what you have written about Joanna. It appears that as she got older, she was not anxious to marry. (How definite are we that it was always her ambition to become a nun? This may be something that only became a real option for her as she got older.) She had what (it appears) she believed was a true prophetic dream that Richard was dead, but she agreed to marry him if he had survived. Thus this does not appear to be evasion of the marriage proposal. It appears that, had Richard survived, she would have gone ahead with marriage to him. Thus she was not evading the marriage.
In her earlier years, it may be that she was reluctant to marry, or for one reason or another no suitable suitor was found for her.
Annette Carson discusses Richard and Joanna in *Richard III: the Maligned King*. First she records what Barrie Williams writes:
On 22 March 1485, only six days after the death of Queen Anne Neville, Richard sent Sir Edward Brampton to Portugal to open negotiations. . . . Joanna was sufficiently senior among the descendants of Queen Philippa to offer some hope that, as Queen of England, traditional Lancastrian loyalties might become attached to her rather than to Henry Tudor. She was just eight months older than Richard. At thirty-three, she was above the age at which queens usually marry, though not too old for a king's second marriage. Nor was she too old to bear her first child. Brampton brought a double proposal to Portugal for Richard to marry Joanna, and for Elizabeth of York to marry John II's cousin, Manuel, Duke of Beja (later King Manuel I).
Then Ms. Carson continues:
Negotiations were brought to a climax in August 1485, Williams continues, when Joanna, known as the Holy Princess for her piety, retired for a night of prayer and meditation.
A dramatic denouement followed. . . . She had either a vision or a dream of a beautiful young man' who told her that Richard had gone from among the living'. Next morning, she gave her brother a firm answer. If Richard were still alive, she would go to England and marry him. If he were indeed dead, the king was not to press her again to marry. It is not necessary to believe in the supernatural to accept that Joanna might have had a premonitory dream of Richard's death. Within days of her decision, news of Bosworth reached Portugal.
Carson further cites Barrie Williams to the effect that, for this period, English historians are too dependent on the work of Polydore Vergil, who does not mention these negotiations. Williams notes that they are not mentioned in Paul Murray Kendall's biography, and Portugal is not even mentioned in Charles Ross's more recent work, let alone the marriage negotiations. In addition, Williams notes that the negotiations cast important light on the understanding of Richard. He notes that although John II of Portugal could be a ruthless monarch, it strains credulity to think that the king and council would try to coerce Joanna into marrying a blood-stained usurper.
In conclusion, the title of that file would be better changed to, How Joanna of Portugal avoided marrying Richard III. The word avoid does not have the connotation of actively conniving or scheming to get out of something, like the word evade does.
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
Email jltournier60@...<mailt o:jltournier60@...>
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From: Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...> []<mailt o:@yahoo groups.com<mailto:richardiiiso [email protected]>>
Sent: June 22, 2017 9:52 AM
To: @yahoogr oups.com<mailto:richardiiisoci [email protected]><mail to:@yaho ogroups.com<mailto:richardiiis [email protected]>>
Subject: Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Thanks. Here's the translation of the summary, which corresponds to the legend I related above:
1. Resistance of Joana.
2. The King accuses her of treachery, turns against the woman, separating her from the sisters.
3. Mysterious dream, in which she is certain of the death of the king of England.
4. When it was daytime, she relates it to Joao II, and news of the death of the suitor arrives.
5. Astonished, the king agrees to leave the infanta in peace, except in cases of extreme necessity, and leaves for Lisbon.
6. Return of the sister to Aveiro.
So this article details the legend of how Joana evaded marriage to Richard, and marriage in general, in favor of joining the sisters at Aveiro, where she died in 1490. She "is accused of treachery" because of the number of previous proposals she has evaded, and because Afonso and Joao considered it her duty to conform with political necessity and marry.
Similarly, a generation later, the eldest daughter of Isabel and Fernando, having been widowed of her first husband, wanted to join holy orders. She was pressured into marrying again, became pregnant, and died in childbirth. Her son was Miguel. If he had lived, he would have inherited both Castile and Aragon on his mother's side (she was also named Isabel); and Portugal on his father's side. Unfortunately, he died at about age 3 (he's buried in the Cathedral of Granada, with his maternal grandparents, his Aunt Juana "la Loca" and her husband Philip the Handsome). His death cleared the way for his cousin Charles V to inherit instead.
Joana was an intelligent and strong-willed woman, an asset to her father and brother when they were on campaign in Africa, and a loss to the political arena. But she knew what she wanted, she worked for it, possibly pushed herself into a particular psychic/psychological state for it, and won her way. She was beatified in 1693, though never canonized. Her evasion of Richard III had nothing to do with any personal aversion; it had to do with her ambition to fulfill her spiritual goals.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Thu, Jun 22, 2017 at 8:07 AM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
The document is in the files section of the yahoo group. It's in Portuguese.
On Jun 22, 2017 7:01 AM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Can you refer me to the document in question? Meanwhile, yes, she evaded marriage in general. The fact that it was Richard in this case was incidental: she didn't want to marry at all as she had religious aspirations.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 11:42 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
So that means she evaded marriage with Richard and that's what the document says?
On Jun 21, 2017 9:59 PM, "Maria Torres ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>> []" <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
Joana of Portugal, who had served as regent for her father, Afonso el Africano, and her brother Joao, wanted to enter orders and be a nun. She turned down a number of proposals, despite the urging of her father and brother. There's a legend concerning her proposal from Richard: she said she had a dream that Richard had died; if this was not the case, she would marry him. If not, she would be able to renounce the court for the veil. In the event, Richard was killed at Bosworth, and Joana entered the convent at Aveiro, where she died in 1490.
Maria
ejbronte@...<mailto:ejbr onte@...><mailto:ejbront e@...<mailto:ejbronte@gm ail.com>>
On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:48 PM, Karen O karenoder4@...<mailto:ka renoder4@...><mailto:kar enoder4@...<mailto:karen oder4@...>> [] <@yahoog roups.com<mailto:richardiiisoc [email protected]><mai lto:@yah oogroups.com<mailto:richardiii [email protected]>> > wrote:
My Portuguese is rusty. I thought she accepted his proposal. This is about the file with that title on the group website.
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Yahoo Groups Links
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Mary
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Nico
On Saturday, 24 June 2017, 9:55, "maryfriend@... []" <> wrote:
Yes Hilary it is very sad to think with hindsight what our country could have been without the Winter King. I remember reading somewhere that Christopher Columbus had approached HT about discovering America and he turned him down flat. What a missed opportunity.
Mary
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
"Yes Hilary it is very sad to think with hindsight what our country could have been without the Winter King. I remember reading somewhere that Christopher Columbus had approached HT about discovering America and he turned him down flat. What a missed opportunity."
Carol responds:
I've read that, too, but can't remember where. Richard would have funded him--and think how different American history would be if that had happened. No Virginia or Carolinas, for two.
Carol
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Maria wrote:
Maximilian I was the son of Leonor of Portugal, who was Afonso's sister, so he and Joana were cousins. I'm not finding any "official" listing of a match attempt between him and Joana, but the idea of cousins marrying within royal circles is common. I'm not finding anything between Charles VIII and Joana either, but I do know he was betrothed to Margaret of Austria, Max's daughter. She was brought up in France for several years, then thrown over for Anne of Brittany. Margaret was then betrothed (and married) to Juan, only son of Isabel and Fernando. He died at age 19. On her way to Spain, Margaret was caught in a ferocious sea storm, and allegedly composed a rhyme which translates to "Here lies Margaret, the willing bride./Twice married, but a virgin when she died."
Marie responds:Sorry for delay - got overwhelmed with stuff again. Thanks for the information on Joana's earlier attempt to take the veil - that is very interesting, and also for clarifying her relationship with Maximilian.I notice that Alvaro Lopes also claimed that she refused Maximilian. Max's secretary and biographer, Joseph Grunpeck, mentions that Maximilian doesn't seem to mention Joanna, but he does say Max was keen to marry Elizabeth of York after Mary's death in order to boost his own claim to the English throne. I suppose Joana would have sort of served the same purpose for Maximilian although it would be marrying back into his own English royal line; Lopes also says that c. 1480 Joana was all set to marry Rene of Lorraine, grandson to Good King Rene, when he died. Antonio Marques, who translated the account of the nun, Margarida Pinheiro, for the RIII Soc library, suggested to me that the she may have been referring to this match in a muddled way when she talked about Joana being sought by the most illustrious king of - or from - France.Joana really doesn't seem to have wished to marry, I have to agree, but if Alvaro Lopes de Chaves is correct, she may have agreed to do so once before but been saved by the suitor's death?
Re: Joanna evades marriage to Richard
Karen wrote:
I find the "Richard wouldn't want more children difficult to believe"
She was the most senior Lancastrian Princess is all. She was very beautiful. The sex lives of Kings were no private matter and children and bedding with your Consort were a royal duty. The privy council would have something to say if Richard refused the marriage bed. I would like to imagine him as a more modern man but I think he would probably be typical of his time.Marie adds:Plus I've got a feeling I've read somewhere that Brampton's instructions were to go to Spain to negotiate for one of Ferdinand and Isabella's daughters if Joana refused. That would have landed Richard with a young teenage bride.
