Fw: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a
Fw: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a
2005-05-09 19:23:06
----- Original Message -----
From: Coral Nelson
To:
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a Battle
I haven't studied intensively for some time but I do seem to remember that The EArl of Salisbury was the Duke of Yorks biggest supporter together with his retainers in the north. He even died with him. Wasn't this Earl of Salisbury Cicely's father and the Earl of Warwick her brother. It was always known that Edward resembled the Neville's as did Clarence whilst Richard favoured their father. I do tend to think that Cicely was bitterely hurt when she found out Edward had turned against her brother by marrying a Lancastrian widow, she had lost her father, husband and son (Edmund who was said to resemble Richard) in the battle and this may have seemed the ultimate betrayal and a very hard call to make. Maybe she was unfaithful but it didn;t appear to have been mentioned until (in my opionion) the disastrous marriage Edward made. Cicely was also known as The Rose of Raby which suggested she was beautiful, she was always said to have been very pious. It is all very confusing and I am sorry I cannot post on the site, I have forgotten my password but would be very interested to hear other views.
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a Battle
--- In , "dixonian2004"
<dixonian2004@y...> wrote:
> Up until quite recently I had thought it unlikely that Cecily would
> have jeopardised herself by indulging in a liaison outside marriage,
> when she had not yet produced the all important heir. Then I thought
> of the fact that, for her times, she married quite late in life and
> was a late starter on the children front. Next I thought of
Margaret
> of Anjou and the widespread suspicion that Henry VI was not the
father
> of her son. I would imagine that the pressure was on both of these
> ladies to produce an heir, Could it be that both assumed, from their
> failure to conceive within an acceptable time scale, that they could
> not do so and were safe to indulge elsewhere. In those days it was
> widely held to be the woman's "fault" if a child was not conceived.
> Just a thought, but how accurate is the information relating to the
> date of Edward IV's birth?
Actually, Cecily had produced a son, Henry, just five months before the
time in question. He was certainly dead by late 1444, but exactly when
he died is an unknown. He could very well still have been alive aand
thriving at this point. I believe the information on Edward's birthdate
is reliable.
Cecily had actually married very young (it was one of those child
marriages) - she just started producing children late. There could
have been three possible reasons, of course: abence of physical
opportunity, lack of luck in conceiving or repeated miscarriage.
However, there is no record that I know of of the couple having
travelled together before this time - no evidence, even, that Cecily
was with York during his first stint in France. It is quite likely that
York would initially have resented this marriage to the complete tail
end of the Beaufort line, which was far more advantageous to York's
guardian Westmoreland than it was to the bridegroom. I'm not sure even
what sort of a dowry Cecily came with - York certainly wasn't in a
position to negotiate and had no one to do so on his behalf.
They were set up with their own household when Cecily was 14, but did
not start producing children for several more years, not until after
York's return from his first short period of office in France. Even
then, there was 18 months between Anne and Henry, although we have seen
that Cecily was pretty much capable of conceiving to order. Do we
possibly have a case of a neglected and resentful bride here?
I certainly agree about Margaret of Anjou, as I think a lot of us do -
she was under tremendous pressure, and may well have been tempted in
the end to do the job by proxy.
I think it's also worth remembering that the medievals weren't
Victorians. They believed implicitly that women were more sexually
hungry than men, and had an absolute right to sexual satisfaction
within marriage.
Marie
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From: Coral Nelson
To:
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a Battle
I haven't studied intensively for some time but I do seem to remember that The EArl of Salisbury was the Duke of Yorks biggest supporter together with his retainers in the north. He even died with him. Wasn't this Earl of Salisbury Cicely's father and the Earl of Warwick her brother. It was always known that Edward resembled the Neville's as did Clarence whilst Richard favoured their father. I do tend to think that Cicely was bitterely hurt when she found out Edward had turned against her brother by marrying a Lancastrian widow, she had lost her father, husband and son (Edmund who was said to resemble Richard) in the battle and this may have seemed the ultimate betrayal and a very hard call to make. Maybe she was unfaithful but it didn;t appear to have been mentioned until (in my opionion) the disastrous marriage Edward made. Cicely was also known as The Rose of Raby which suggested she was beautiful, she was always said to have been very pious. It is all very confusing and I am sorry I cannot post on the site, I have forgotten my password but would be very interested to hear other views.
----- Original Message -----
From: mariewalsh2003
To:
Sent: Monday, May 09, 2005 2:39 PM
Subject: Re: Bosworth 1485: Psychology of a Battle
--- In , "dixonian2004"
<dixonian2004@y...> wrote:
> Up until quite recently I had thought it unlikely that Cecily would
> have jeopardised herself by indulging in a liaison outside marriage,
> when she had not yet produced the all important heir. Then I thought
> of the fact that, for her times, she married quite late in life and
> was a late starter on the children front. Next I thought of
Margaret
> of Anjou and the widespread suspicion that Henry VI was not the
father
> of her son. I would imagine that the pressure was on both of these
> ladies to produce an heir, Could it be that both assumed, from their
> failure to conceive within an acceptable time scale, that they could
> not do so and were safe to indulge elsewhere. In those days it was
> widely held to be the woman's "fault" if a child was not conceived.
> Just a thought, but how accurate is the information relating to the
> date of Edward IV's birth?
Actually, Cecily had produced a son, Henry, just five months before the
time in question. He was certainly dead by late 1444, but exactly when
he died is an unknown. He could very well still have been alive aand
thriving at this point. I believe the information on Edward's birthdate
is reliable.
Cecily had actually married very young (it was one of those child
marriages) - she just started producing children late. There could
have been three possible reasons, of course: abence of physical
opportunity, lack of luck in conceiving or repeated miscarriage.
However, there is no record that I know of of the couple having
travelled together before this time - no evidence, even, that Cecily
was with York during his first stint in France. It is quite likely that
York would initially have resented this marriage to the complete tail
end of the Beaufort line, which was far more advantageous to York's
guardian Westmoreland than it was to the bridegroom. I'm not sure even
what sort of a dowry Cecily came with - York certainly wasn't in a
position to negotiate and had no one to do so on his behalf.
They were set up with their own household when Cecily was 14, but did
not start producing children for several more years, not until after
York's return from his first short period of office in France. Even
then, there was 18 months between Anne and Henry, although we have seen
that Cecily was pretty much capable of conceiving to order. Do we
possibly have a case of a neglected and resentful bride here?
I certainly agree about Margaret of Anjou, as I think a lot of us do -
she was under tremendous pressure, and may well have been tempted in
the end to do the job by proxy.
I think it's also worth remembering that the medievals weren't
Victorians. They believed implicitly that women were more sexually
hungry than men, and had an absolute right to sexual satisfaction
within marriage.
Marie
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group//
b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
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