Jasper Tudor

Some time ago, Hilary, you posted about your analysis of the rebels of the October (Buckingham's) rebellion. One of your conclusions was that you did not find evidence of mobilization of Margaret Beaufort's networks.
I'm wondering about Jasper Tudor - did he still have connections in Wales and England? And if so, did they come into play during the rebellion?
A J

Hi AJ, one of the families associated with Jasper was the Perrots of Haverfordwest. Sir Thomas (died 1460) had been Counsellor to Jasper. His son, another Sir Thomas (died 1474) had been made Lord of Haverfordwest and his son John, later became assistant attorney to Jasper after Henry took the throne. His son, Thomas (born about 1455) fought at Bosworth for HT but was not among the 1483 rebels and neither was his father. Sir Thomas (d 1474)'s sister Emmota married Sir Richard Craddock Newton (of Newton/Stillington fame) and another sister was great aunt to Sir Mathew Craddock (he who married Catherine Gordon). Sir Mathew of course also fought at Bosworth, but was not a 1483 rebel.
I have two scenarios for this. The first one is that because they were such a tight-knot community in the South West if Stillington knew, so would Morton, who was just down the road but knowing was of no use until Edward died - or it would give him the opportunity to put things right.So, knowing it was going to be announced on Edward's death, they sent in Buckingham to get close to Richard and perhaps persuade him down the line to let HT back. The didn't negotiate for him being barking mad and it all went dreadfully wrong so they very quickly kept their heads down.
The second is that they didn't know at all and were part of the headless chicken brigade setting their cap at the Woodvilles in the hope of persuading them to let HT back and that that also went disasterously wrong due to the recklessness of Buckingham.
I honestly don't know which is right but I do think at this stage it was about getting HT home and pardoned - kingship was the last resort later when he had nowhere else to go. I'll let you know if I come across any more. There's a lot of work in progress. H


From: "A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2017, 20:42
Subject: Jasper Tudor

Some time ago, Hilary, you posted about your analysis of the rebels of the October (Buckingham's) rebellion. One of your conclusions was that you did not find evidence of mobilization of Margaret Beaufort's networks.
I'm wondering about Jasper Tudor - did he still have connections in Wales and England? And if so, did they come into play during the rebellion?
A J

Thanks Hilary. I guess exploring the rebellion day by day (as I am currently) I am surprised to find how "early" HT was declared King of England  - late Oct - early November. So how hard did his supporters really negotiate for his return home?
A J

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
 

Hi AJ, one of the families associated with Jasper was the Perrots of Haverfordwest. Sir Thomas (died 1460) had been Counsellor to Jasper. His son, another Sir Thomas (died 1474) had been made Lord of Haverfordwest and his son John, later became assistant attorney to Jasper after Henry took the throne. His son, Thomas (born about 1455) fought at Bosworth for HT but was not among the 1483 rebels and neither was his father. Sir Thomas (d 1474)'s sister Emmota married Sir Richard Craddock Newton (of Newton/Stillington fame) and another sister was great aunt to Sir Mathew Craddock (he who married Catherine Gordon). Sir Mathew of course also fought at Bosworth, but was not a 1483 rebel.
I have two scenarios for this. The first one is that because they were such a tight-knot community in the South West if Stillington knew, so would Morton, who was just down the road but knowing was of no use until Edward died - or it would give him the opportunity to put things right.So, knowing it was going to be announced on Edward's death, they sent in Buckingham to get close to Richard and perhaps persuade him down the line to let HT back. The didn't negotiate for him being barking mad and it all went dreadfully wrong so they very quickly kept their heads down.
The second is that they didn't know at all and were part of the headless chicken brigade setting their cap at the Woodvilles in the hope of persuading them to let HT back and that that also went disasterously wrong due to the recklessness of Buckingham.
I honestly don't know which is right but I do think at this stage it was about getting HT home and pardoned - kingship was the last resort later when he had nowhere else to go. I'll let you know if I come across any more. There's a lot of work in progress. H 


From: "A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com>
To: "@ yahoogroups.com" <@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2017, 20:42
Subject: Jasper Tudor

  Some time ago, Hilary, you posted about your analysis of the rebels of the October (Buckingham's) rebellion. One of your conclusions was that you did not find evidence of mobilization of Margaret Beaufort's networks.
I'm wondering about Jasper Tudor - did he still have connections in Wales and England? And if so, did they come into play during the rebellion?
A J

I doubt they ever got very far with negotiations because Buckingham threw everything up in the air. Once the rebellion had started - and failed - HT had nowhere left to go. If Richard could execute his ex-brother-in-law then there wouldn't be much mercy for HT. I truly don't think HT ever really wanted to be king. He was exactly the opposite in character of what a king of this period should be and his miserable reign testifies to this. Fate gave his adversary a horse which slipped in the mud, so his mother would have said it was his destiny. But who really knows what he thought? Interested in your project. H

From: "A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... []" <>
To: "" <>
Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2017, 14:42
Subject: Re: Jasper Tudor

Thanks Hilary. I guess exploring the rebellion day by day (as I am currently) I am surprised to find how "early" HT was declared King of England - late Oct - early November. So how hard did his supporters really negotiate for his return home?
A J

On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 5:26 AM, Hilary Jones hjnatdat@... [] <> wrote:
Hi AJ, one of the families associated with Jasper was the Perrots of Haverfordwest. Sir Thomas (died 1460) had been Counsellor to Jasper. His son, another Sir Thomas (died 1474) had been made Lord of Haverfordwest and his son John, later became assistant attorney to Jasper after Henry took the throne. His son, Thomas (born about 1455) fought at Bosworth for HT but was not among the 1483 rebels and neither was his father. Sir Thomas (d 1474)'s sister Emmota married Sir Richard Craddock Newton (of Newton/Stillington fame) and another sister was great aunt to Sir Mathew Craddock (he who married Catherine Gordon). Sir Mathew of course also fought at Bosworth, but was not a 1483 rebel.
I have two scenarios for this. The first one is that because they were such a tight-knot community in the South West if Stillington knew, so would Morton, who was just down the road but knowing was of no use until Edward died - or it would give him the opportunity to put things right.So, knowing it was going to be announced on Edward's death, they sent in Buckingham to get close to Richard and perhaps persuade him down the line to let HT back. The didn't negotiate for him being barking mad and it all went dreadfully wrong so they very quickly kept their heads down.
The second is that they didn't know at all and were part of the headless chicken brigade setting their cap at the Woodvilles in the hope of persuading them to let HT back and that that also went disasterously wrong due to the recklessness of Buckingham.
I honestly don't know which is right but I do think at this stage it was about getting HT home and pardoned - kingship was the last resort later when he had nowhere else to go. I'll let you know if I come across any more. There's a lot of work in progress. H


From: "A J Hibbard ajhibbard@... []" <@ yahoogroups.com>
To: "@ yahoogroups.com" <@ yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 11 October 2017, 20:42
Subject: Jasper Tudor

Some time ago, Hilary, you posted about your analysis of the rebels of the October (Buckingham's) rebellion. One of your conclusions was that you did not find evidence of mobilization of Margaret Beaufort's networks.
I'm wondering about Jasper Tudor - did he still have connections in Wales and England? And if so, did they come into play during the rebellion?
A J

Not sure if I have posted this on here previously but I have done some more research in to the families of the Glamorgan coastline and wrote an article for Stephen's Murray and Blue blog about Matthew Craddock. Looking at families, whose names were familiar to me as I was brought up in Glamorgan, I discovered that the Stradlings of St Donat's Castle were connected to Rhys ap Thomas. I had found a post on a genealogy site which stated that Matthew had fought in Rhys ap Thomas' retinue at Bosworth. I wasn't convinced because genealogy sites are known to have mistakes and I was looking at the Glamorgan families possible connections to William Herbert, who was supposedly guarding the Glamorgan coast for Richard. Anyway after a bit more research on the Stradlings I discovered that Sir Thomas Stradling, who had married a Jane Matthew, died in 1480 leaving Jane with a young son. Jane remarried shortly afterwards to none other than Rhys ap Thomas and he then became guardian to her young son. In 1485 Jane died leaving Thomas in sole charge of her son. There was an account of Rhys being accused of using the income from the boys estate for his own use for three years running. Nice chap!!
How does this connect to Craddock? Well his castle (fortified manor house) Candelston Castle was just up the coast from St Donat's Castle and there are connections by way of marriage between all of these families so it is possible that Thomas knew Craddock and his family. It is not definitely known when Matthew was born some sources say 1458 and others say 1468 and most tend to lean towards 1468. If so he would have only have been around 17 in 1485 but old enough to fight at Bosworth so was he persuaded by Rhys to join his retinue? Craddock certainly flourished under HT.
Mary

Agree with all of this Mary. These families and I 'd go so far as to include the Talbots in the wider circle, have a habit of hovering round the Berkeleys too. Whilst pursuing Thomas Hampton I came across yet another Edward II regicide. They're quite complex to research but always lead back to one another and to Pembrokeshire, Somerset and Wiltshire, though they emerge in Staffordshire occasionally, like Sir David Craddock, who was Justiciar of Wales in the previous century and is related to Richard and Mathew. He's buried in Nantwich. H

From: "maryfriend@... []" <>
To:
Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2017, 16:05
Subject: Re: Jasper Tudor

Not sure if I have posted this on here previously but I have done some more research in to the families of the Glamorgan coastline and wrote an article for Stephen's Murray and Blue blog about Matthew Craddock. Looking at families, whose names were familiar to me as I was brought up in Glamorgan, I discovered that the Stradlings of St Donat's Castle were connected to Rhys ap Thomas. I had found a post on a genealogy site which stated that Matthew had fought in Rhys ap Thomas' retinue at Bosworth. I wasn't convinced because genealogy sites are known to have mistakes and I was looking at the Glamorgan families possible connections to William Herbert, who was supposedly guarding the Glamorgan coast for Richard. Anyway after a bit more research on the Stradlings I discovered that Sir Thomas Stradling, who had married a Jane Matthew, died in 1480 leaving Jane with a young son. Jane remarried shortly afterwards to none other than Rhys ap Thomas and he then became guardian to her young son. In 1485 Jane died leaving Thomas in sole charge of her son. There was an account of Rhys being accused of using the income from the boys estate for his own use for three years running. Nice chap!!
How does this connect to Craddock? Well his castle (fortified manor house) Candelston Castle was just up the coast from St Donat's Castle and there are connections by way of marriage between all of these families so it is possible that Thomas knew Craddock and his family. It is not definitely known when Matthew was born some sources say 1458 and others say 1468 and most tend to lean towards 1468. If so he would have only have been around 17 in 1485 but old enough to fight at Bosworth so was he persuaded by Rhys to join his retinue? Craddock certainly flourished under HT.
Mary

Yes Hilary the Talbots were in positions of power in South Wales. Port Talbot is just down the coast from Porthcawl. Also the Mansels. When discussing family connections with a friend from the Worcestershire Society she agreed that family connections played a a big part in what went on during the WOTR.
Mary

How silly of me that I never connected Port Talbot with the Talbots! H
On Saturday, 14 October 2017, 10:46:55 BST, maryfriend@... [] <> wrote:

Yes Hilary the Talbots were in positions of power in South Wales. Port Talbot is just down the coast from Porthcawl. Also the Mansels. When discussing family connections with a friend from the Worcestershire Society she agreed that family connections played a a big part in what went on during the WOTR.

Mary

I have been checking up on line and it became Port Talbot during the 19th century, but I imagine they had connections with the families during earlier times. The families that I remember being prominent when I was younger were the Turbevilles, Stradlings the Mansells and the Talbots . These names keep popping up whenever I do a bit of research on the subject of the Glamorgan coast families. Also Hilary I was looking at some info about Einon ap Collwyn because Matthew Craddock is supposedly descended from him, and it is thought that he might be a mythical person. I then came across a something which named the twelve people who were given land in Wales by the Normans, though that is thought to be mythical too. William de Londres was on the list ( de Londres of Ogmore Castle) and so is someone called Berkerolles. Aren't they on your list of being involved with the Newtons and Stillington etc? Will check it out again if I can find it.
Mary

Mary so very sorry to have taken so long to reply but I've been lost in the Twelve Knights of Glamorgan - it's taken this long. All the people we've talked of are descended from them, particularly, but not exclusively the Craddocks. Now you probably know that it's been suggested that the Knights are also a myth and having spent ages digging round Norman England I believe that's partially true. I can only get Fitzhamon himself, William de Londres and Gilbert Umfreville back to that time. Others like Sully and Siward date from a couple or more centuries later.
But did the people know that in the fifteenth century? If they did believe it, then they would believe they had much superior ancestry to HT, the cream of Norman society intermarried with Welsh princesses, and that might well explain why they didn't flock to him in 1483. In the two years that followed someone, I wonder who, might have reminded them of the carnage of Edgcote - and it really was carnage for the Welsh. Now Richard and they had been on the same side then, but Warwick's supporters in the North of course later became Richard's. And in these two years he'd had to use some of them to support him in the South. And of course when HT won, they were able to cash in on their Welsh identity to form the band of friends he so dearly needed. Just a thought?
Incidentally, wasn't Anthony Woodville supposed to have had an affair with Gwenllian Stradling which produced Margaret, wife of Robert Poyntz? I'm having a bit of trouble finding her alleged father. Is she another 'Martha'?
I'm doing quite a bit of work on 'faked' or missing ancestry and some of it is very close to our friends in Somerset. I'll be back with that later, and also with your stuff on the Cornish rebels AJ. H
On Thursday, 12 October 2017, 16:05:03 BST, maryfriend@... [] <> wrote:

Not sure if I have posted this on here previously but I have done some more research in to the families of the Glamorgan coastline and wrote an article for Stephen's Murray and Blue blog about Matthew Craddock. Looking at families, whose names were familiar to me as I was brought up in Glamorgan, I discovered that the Stradlings of St Donat's Castle were connected to Rhys ap Thomas. I had found a post on a genealogy site which stated that Matthew had fought in Rhys ap Thomas' retinue at Bosworth. I wasn't convinced because genealogy sites are known to have mistakes and I was looking at the Glamorgan families possible connections to William Herbert, who was supposedly guarding the Glamorgan coast for Richard. Anyway after a bit more research on the Stradlings I discovered that Sir Thomas Stradling, who had married a Jane Matthew, died in 1480 leaving Jane with a young son. Jane remarried shortly afterwards to none other than Rhys ap Thomas and he then became guardian to her young son. In 1485 Jane died leaving Thomas in sole charge of her son. There was an account of Rhys being accused of using the income from the boys estate for his own use for three years running. Nice chap!!

How does this connect to Craddock? Well his castle (fortified manor house) Candelston Castle was just up the coast from St Donat's Castle and there are connections by way of marriage between all of these families so it is possible that Thomas knew Craddock and his family. It is not definitely known when Matthew was born some sources say 1458 and others say 1468 and most tend to lean towards 1468. If so he would have only have been around 17 in 1485 but old enough to fight at Bosworth so was he persuaded by Rhys to join his retinue? Craddock certainly flourished under HT.
Mary