Back to the Waytes

Hi and happy New Year to all,

I thought I ought to report in on a bit more information that I've gathered on the Wayte question (all verified by contemporary primary sources).

The subject under scrutiny was the Thomas Wayte who died at New Temple Inn, London, in 1449, mentioning property in Berkshire and Wiltshire and two sisters, one being Margaret Longe. I believe JAH has indicated that his mother was Margaret Popham, and that he was of the same family as Edward's mistress, and was succeded at Brighstone, Isle of Wight (later known as Wayte's Court) by his brother John.

The first part is true - i.e. his mother was Margaret Popham. What happened is that Philip Popham had two daughters, Maude and Margaret, who were coheiresses to his Berkshire manors and to a moitie of the manor of Barton Stacey in Hampshire. They were both initially married (by 1414) to Coudrays, Philip and John respectively. Both these first husbands died early, leaving both girls as childless widows. Maude Popham then also died (1420), leaving Margaret as sole heir to the Popham properties.

Margaret Popham remarried, her second husband being one William Wayte, though for some reason he is frequently named in histories as Thomas. By him, Margaret had three children, Maude, Margaret and Thomas. William Wayte died by 1428, and Margaret married as her third husband Robert Longe (d. 1447), by whom she had no issue.

Maude Wayte was married to Sir John Chalers. Margaret Wayte was married to her stepbrother, John Longe. There is no evidence that Thomas married at all, and he was childless at his death in 1449. His heirs were his two sisters, Maude (Chalers) and Margaret (Longe), and they inherited all Thomas's properties. This particular Wayte line therefore ceases in 1449, and the death of Thomas Wayte of New Temple Inn has *no impact at all* on the succession of Brighstone.

I have not been able to establish the parentage of Thomas's father William Wayte, as all of Thomas' properties, so far as I can ascertain, were of his mother's inheritance. One item in the VCH claims he was William Wayte of Denmead, but the dates don't work and that William Wayte's wife Margaret is named in a contemporary deed as the daughter of Robert Barbot.

Since the other moietie of Barton Stacey was held by William Ryngbourne (who also leased part o the Popham half), and the Ryngbournes had earlier contested the ownership of Brighstone with the Waytes, I suspect that Margaret Popham's William Wayte may have been a younger son of the Waytes of Brighstone, but I have no evidence for it.

So currently I still have along gap between the inheritance of Brighstone by a Thomas Wayte by 1414, and the appearance of "our" Thomas Wayte's father John in the early 1450s. I don't intend to research this actively, but if more information turns up I shall post it.

Hi and happy New Year to all,

I thought I ought to report in on a bit more information that I've gathered on the Wayte question (all verified by contemporary primary sources).

The subject under scrutiny was the Thomas Wayte who died at New Temple Inn, London, in 1449, mentioning property in Berkshire and Wiltshire and two sisters, one being Margaret Longe. I believe JAH has indicated that his mother was Margaret Popham, and that he was of the same family as Edward's mistress, and was succeded at Brighstone, Isle of Wight (later known as Wayte's Court) by his brother John.

The first part is true - i.e. his mother was Margaret Popham. What happened is that Philip Popham had two daughters, Maude and Margaret, who were coheiresses to his Berkshire manors and to a moitie of the manor of Barton Stacey in Hampshire. They were both initially married (by 1414) to Coudrays, Philip and John respectively. Both these first husbands died early, leaving both girls as childless widows. Maude Popham then also died (1420), leaving Margaret as sole heir to the Popham properties.

Margaret Popham remarried, her second husband being one William Wayte, though for some reason he is frequently named in histories as Thomas. By him, Margaret had three children, Maude, Margaret and Thomas. William Wayte died by 1428, and Margaret married as her third husband Robert Longe (d. 1447), by whom she had no issue.

Maude Wayte was married to Sir John Chalers. Margaret Wayte was married to her stepbrother, John Longe. There is no evidence that Thomas married at all, and he was childless at his death in 1449. His heirs were his two sisters, Maude (Chalers) and Margaret (Longe), and they inherited all Thomas's properties. This particular Wayte line therefore ceases in 1449, and the death of Thomas Wayte of New Temple Inn has *no impact at all* on the succession of Brighstone.

I have not been able to establish the parentage of Thomas's father William Wayte, as all of Thomas' properties, so far as I can ascertain, were of his mother's inheritance. One item in the VCH claims he was William Wayte of Denmead, but the dates don't work and that William Wayte's wife Margaret is named in a contemporary deed as the daughter of Robert Barbot.

Since the other moietie of Barton Stacey was held by William Ryngbourne (who also leased part o the Popham half), and the Ryngbournes had earlier contested the ownership of Brighstone with the Waytes, I suspect that Margaret Popham's William Wayte may have been a younger son of the Waytes of Brighstone, but I have no evidence for it.

So currently I still have along gap between the inheritance of Brighstone by a Thomas Wayte by 1414, and the appearance of "our" Thomas Wayte's father John in the early 1450s. I don't intend to research this actively, but if more information turns up I shall post it.

Hilary wrote:
Hi Marie, I can add a little bit to this. The Coudray brothers who married the Popham girls had a sister Joanna who married John Skilling, Escheator for Wiltshire. She was Elizabeth Skilling's grandmother. The other sister, Margaret, married Robert Whitehead and was the grandmother of the Morris Whitehead who married Thomas Hampton's daughter Anne. So they are all connected. The common theme that runs through this is also the Law, families of lawyers and judges.

Marie replies:That's very interesting. These families all inhabited the same small area of the country, and were of the same fairly rarefied class, so inevitably they had a lot to do with each other and intermarried. As always, of course, relationships amongst a land-hungry class give the potential for both friendship and enmity, but there are quite a lot of records showing us which individuals were cooperating with each other and which ones were dragging each other through the courts. I'm quite sure their individual local interests featured way above national politics in their concerns unless the latter threatened the former.

Hilary wrote:I've done a bit more on this but it is convoluted to say the least. Thomas Wayte of Manningford Bohun seems to have been the son of Robert Wayte. Viz:DD\WHb/1898Title: QuitclaimDescription: By John Serle, Thomas Newenam, Edward Wayte and William atte Dene to Thomas Wayte son of Robert Wayte, of a messuage called Shedewell Place in Manyngford Bohon. Witn. Thomas Braybroke, John Berewe, Robert Vaus, etc. Dated, 12 Sept. 28 Hen. VI [1449]. Four small seals.Date: 1449Held by: Somerset Heritage Centre (South West Heritage Trust), not available at The National ArchivesThis Thomas Wayte is the father of the Elizabeth Wayte who married Thomas Rogers. Note the witnesses are from Northants and some websites have this Thomas married to the daughter of Sir Thomas Greene of Green's Norton, but I can't prove that. He seems to have had a number of sons, the eldest being another Robert. I'm still working on the rest but keep getting diverted as you'll understand well!
Marie replies:There were a lot of Wayte families around, and you can find some in almost whichever county you choose to look. Very possibly the Hants/Wilts ones were all sprung from the same stock, but it doesn't seem very relevant as they don't seem to have had too much to do with each other. Basically, in the 15th century you have:1. the Maningford Bohun Waytes; 2. the Waytes of Wymering & Denmead, and3. the important ones for us, i.e. Waytes of Brighstone IOW and parts of Titchfield (viz Segenworth and Lee), with whom Arthur Plantagenet was associated (3).
Maningford BohunYou're right about Thomas of Maningford Bohun's father. He came into his land in Maningford Bohun by virtue of his marriage, and in 1419 we see Robert and his wife Isabel made a conveyance of some land in Maningford Bohun and adjoining places (TNA CP 25/1/256/60, item 32). In 1434 Robert Wayte was one of the very many gentlemen of Hampshire required to take an oath not to maintain peacebreakers. Robert was dead by 1450, when his widow Isabel was suing his debtors in Common Pleas. It was indeed Thomas of Maningford Bohun whose daughter Elizabeth married Thomas Rogers - I think we already sorted that out. Thomas of Brighstone, who died only slightly earlier than Thomas of Maningford Bohun, left no children.
Wymering & DenmeadI can go back to a Richard Wayte of Denmead who married Isabel de Limbourne, the heiress of Wymering (parish of Limbourne), by whom he had a son also named Richard. Richard Wayte the father was dead by 1387, and Isabel died in 1389 or 1390, when her son Richard Wayte inherited Wymering as well as Denmead. He seems to have imposed himself at Wymering by violence, but that's another story. He kept it. He was married to a Margaret in 1391, and to an Elizabeth in 1409. His son and heir, William, must have been the offspring of the second marriage as he was aged only 14 at the time of his father's death in 1423. Young William Wayte of Deanmead/ Wymering was already married when his father died, his wife being Margaret, daughter of Robert Barbot of Great Ervilles. Margaret Barbot seems to have died not long after the last mention I have found of her (July 1441), as from May 1442 William's wife is named as Elizabeth. William himself died in 1447, leaving a son, Edward, aged 5 (Edward's age suggests that his birth may have been the cause of Margaret's death).
Brighstone & TttichfieldThese are the Waytes we really want to know about - the family from which Arthur seems to have sprung. I have traced the line back to a Henry and Alice Wayte who flourished in the late 13th and early 14th century. Their son William and his wife Alice were confirmed in the possession of Brighstone in 1321. From them Brighstone and the Titchfield properties passed to their son Thomas, who was in possession by 1359. Thomas was succeeded by his son John Wayte, whose wife seems to have been Margaret, perhaps the Margaret wife of John Wayte who was executrix to John Bluet in 1370. John Wayte died some time between 1399 and 1406 (though his widow Margaret survived into the late 1420s), and was succeeded by his son Thomas Wayte. Thomas's wife, who appears in a couple of records, was named Annabel (Anabilla). Thomas fought off a couple of challenges to the ownership of Brighstone. He was closely associated with a William Wayte whose dates show that he was neither William of Denmead (active too early) nor the William Wayte who married Margaret Popham (active after his death); probably he was Thomas' younger brother. Both Thomas and William fought at Agincourt. The latest clear reference I have found to Thomas dates from 1434, and his son John was active by 1443, so he died somewhere between those dates (we don't have an IPM to show the relationship between Thomas and his heir John, but John is identified as his son in a Chancery case). So, yes, John Ashdown-Hill is right, and "our" Thomas's father John was the son of *a* Thomas Wayte, but just not Thomas son of Margaret Popham - he died after John inherited, and he died childless.I've not found any mention of John Wayte's wife, but I think she was almost certainly a sister of John Hampton, both because their son Thomas chose to be buried in the Hampton church at Stoke Charity and because John Wayte and the Hamptons appear together in so many documents. John Wayte died late 1459 or 1460, and was succeeded by his elder son Thomas, who as we all know married Elizabeth Skilling and died childless, leaving Brighstone and Titchfield to be inherited by his younger brother William.
Hilary wrote:
Whilst you're 'here' can I mention John Hampton, Stillington's son-in-law. As you know we can't find an IPM or indeed a tomb like the other Hamptons. Is there a possibility that he didn't die in 1482 but went into the Church? There's a sum in the Dean and Chapter's Manuscript for Wells for the burial of John Hampton in 1502. If that were possible it would have a logic - his father-in-law was the Bishop and Richard Nykke was already there. Is it possible for him to have given his daughters and their inheritance to the wardship of Chokke? H
Marie:John Hampton of Stoke Charity died in 1472. I have a copy of his will. It was made in May and proved in July. He asked to be buried in the Chapel of St. Anne and St. Katherine in the parish church at Kinver, and it seems that this is what happened:http://www.kingswinford.com/kinver/kinverchurch.htm

Hilary wrote:
Hi Marie, I can add a little bit to this. The Coudray brothers who married the Popham girls had a sister Joanna who married John Skilling, Escheator for Wiltshire. She was Elizabeth Skilling's grandmother. The other sister, Margaret, married Robert Whitehead and was the grandmother of the Morris Whitehead who married Thomas Hampton's daughter Anne. So they are all connected. The common theme that runs through this is also the Law, families of lawyers and judges.

Marie replies:That's very interesting. These families all inhabited the same small area of the country, and were of the same fairly rarefied class, so inevitably they had a lot to do with each other and intermarried. As always, of course, relationships amongst a land-hungry class give the potential for both friendship and enmity, but there are quite a lot of records showing us which individuals were cooperating with each other and which ones were dragging each other through the courts. I'm quite sure their individual local interests featured way above national politics in their concerns unless the latter threatened the former.

Hilary wrote:I've done a bit more on this but it is convoluted to say the least. Thomas Wayte of Manningford Bohun seems to have been the son of Robert Wayte. Viz:DD\WHb/1898Title: QuitclaimDescription: By John Serle, Thomas Newenam, Edward Wayte and William atte Dene to Thomas Wayte son of Robert Wayte, of a messuage called Shedewell Place in Manyngford Bohon. Witn. Thomas Braybroke, John Berewe, Robert Vaus, etc. Dated, 12 Sept. 28 Hen. VI [1449]. Four small seals.Date: 1449Held by: Somerset Heritage Centre (South West Heritage Trust), not available at The National ArchivesThis Thomas Wayte is the father of the Elizabeth Wayte who married Thomas Rogers. Note the witnesses are from Northants and some websites have this Thomas married to the daughter of Sir Thomas Greene of Green's Norton, but I can't prove that. He seems to have had a number of sons, the eldest being another Robert. I'm still working on the rest but keep getting diverted as you'll understand well!
Marie replies:There were a lot of Wayte families around, and you can find some in almost whichever county you choose to look. Very possibly the Hants/Wilts ones were all sprung from the same stock, but it doesn't seem very relevant as they don't seem to have had too much to do with each other. Basically, in the 15th century you have:1. the Maningford Bohun Waytes; 2. the Waytes of Wymering & Denmead, and3. the important ones for us, i.e. Waytes of Brighstone IOW and parts of Titchfield (viz Segenworth and Lee), with whom Arthur Plantagenet was associated (3).
Maningford BohunYou're right about Thomas of Maningford Bohun's father. He came into his land in Maningford Bohun by virtue of his marriage, and in 1419 we see Robert and his wife Isabel made a conveyance of some land in Maningford Bohun and adjoining places (TNA CP 25/1/256/60, item 32). In 1434 Robert Wayte was one of the very many gentlemen of Hampshire required to take an oath not to maintain peacebreakers. Robert was dead by 1450, when his widow Isabel was suing his debtors in Common Pleas. It was indeed Thomas of Maningford Bohun whose daughter Elizabeth married Thomas Rogers - I think we already sorted that out. Thomas of Brighstone, who died only slightly earlier than Thomas of Maningford Bohun, left no children.
Wymering & DenmeadI can go back to a Richard Wayte of Denmead who married Isabel de Limbourne, the heiress of Wymering (parish of Limbourne), by whom he had a son also named Richard. Richard Wayte the father was dead by 1387, and Isabel died in 1389 or 1390, when her son Richard Wayte inherited Wymering as well as Denmead. He seems to have imposed himself at Wymering by violence, but that's another story. He kept it. He was married to a Margaret in 1391, and to an Elizabeth in 1409. His son and heir, William, must have been the offspring of the second marriage as he was aged only 14 at the time of his father's death in 1423. Young William Wayte of Deanmead/ Wymering was already married when his father died, his wife being Margaret, daughter of Robert Barbot of Great Ervilles. Margaret Barbot seems to have died not long after the last mention I have found of her (July 1441), as from May 1442 William's wife is named as Elizabeth. William himself died in 1447, leaving a son, Edward, aged 5 (Edward's age suggests that his birth may have been the cause of Margaret's death).
Brighstone & TttichfieldThese are the Waytes we really want to know about - the family from which Arthur seems to have sprung. I have traced the line back to a Henry and Alice Wayte who flourished in the late 13th and early 14th century. Their son William and his wife Alice were confirmed in the possession of Brighstone in 1321. From them Brighstone and the Titchfield properties passed to their son Thomas, who was in possession by 1359. Thomas was succeeded by his son John Wayte, whose wife seems to have been Margaret, perhaps the Margaret wife of John Wayte who was executrix to John Bluet in 1370. John Wayte died some time between 1399 and 1406 (though his widow Margaret survived into the late 1420s), and was succeeded by his son Thomas Wayte. Thomas's wife, who appears in a couple of records, was named Annabel (Anabilla). Thomas fought off a couple of challenges to the ownership of Brighstone. He was closely associated with a William Wayte whose dates show that he was neither William of Denmead (active too early) nor the William Wayte who married Margaret Popham (active after his death); probably he was Thomas' younger brother. Both Thomas and William fought at Agincourt. The latest clear reference I have found to Thomas dates from 1434, and his son John was active by 1443, so he died somewhere between those dates (we don't have an IPM to show the relationship between Thomas and his heir John, but John is identified as his son in a Chancery case). So, yes, John Ashdown-Hill is right, and "our" Thomas's father John was the son of *a* Thomas Wayte, but just not Thomas son of Margaret Popham - he died after John inherited, and he died childless.I've not found any mention of John Wayte's wife, but I think she was almost certainly a sister of John Hampton, both because their son Thomas chose to be buried in the Hampton church at Stoke Charity and because John Wayte and the Hamptons appear together in so many documents. John Wayte died late 1459 or 1460, and was succeeded by his elder son Thomas, who as we all know married Elizabeth Skilling and died childless, leaving Brighstone and Titchfield to be inherited by his younger brother William.
Hilary wrote:
Whilst you're 'here' can I mention John Hampton, Stillington's son-in-law. As you know we can't find an IPM or indeed a tomb like the other Hamptons. Is there a possibility that he didn't die in 1482 but went into the Church? There's a sum in the Dean and Chapter's Manuscript for Wells for the burial of John Hampton in 1502. If that were possible it would have a logic - his father-in-law was the Bishop and Richard Nykke was already there. Is it possible for him to have given his daughters and their inheritance to the wardship of Chokke? H
Marie:John Hampton of Stoke Charity died in 1472. I have a copy of his will. It was made in May and proved in July. He asked to be buried in the Chapel of St. Anne and St. Katherine in the parish church at Kinver, and it seems that this is what happened:http://www.kingswinford.com/kinver/kinverchurch.htm

Hilary wrote:The John Hampton I'm talking about is Juliana Stillington's husband of Devon and Somerset. Not the same one as of Kinver as his children were born after 1472The John Hampton of Kinver is the former Esquire of Henry Vl, who had a brother Bevis and who was persuaded by Thomas Hampton (a distant cousin) to leave his money to him. He features in the Stonor papers. Like the Waytes it's confusing because they were all related


Marie replies:
Ah, yes, I see I have the wrong John Hampton - I see now that I was confused because John Hampton of Kinver (d. 1472) left all his lands to Thomas Hampton, son of John Hampton, of Stoke Charity. It would seem that the Hamptons of Kinver (who actually seem to have come from Wolverhampton) liked to imagine that they were descended from the Hampshire Hamptons and were therefore descendants of the storybook hero Bevis of Hampton (the Hampton in Bevis' case being Southampton). Hence the fact that John of Kinver's parents, John and Hawise, had named their second son Bevis, and that John Jr and Bevis had then struck up a friendship with the Hamptons of Stoke Charity, apparently regarding them as the head branch of their own family. I've browsed through what records I can find quickly, and my latest reference to John Hampton of Stoke Charity is 1458 (Common Pleas). After that it is just Thomas, who died in October 1483. Stoke Charity was held of Hyde Abbey, so the Hamptons would not have been tenants in chief by virtue of being lords of Stoke C., hence no IPM.
But I'm afraid to say that, on checking, I see that John Hampton of Stoke Charity wasn't the husband of Juliane Stillington either. I went back to Bill Hmpton's article in Ricardian No 56, and it is clear from this and other sources that Julian married John Hampton of East Harptree, Somerset, and that this was a different Hampton family again. They start with Philip Hampton (d. 1440), who had married the East Harptree heiress Alice Calecot. It was their son John who married Juliane Stillington (whose actual place in the Stillington tree is guesswork). He died about the same time as John of Kinver, which is also confusing, but he and Juliane left only daughters whereas John of Stoke Charity, who seems to have died at least a decade earlier, left a son Thomas, who in turn left a large family.
So that means we have no Hampton link between the Waytes and the Stillingtons.