Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-07 20:16:52
Rhonda
The long hair at birth could have been lanugo, which is a soft, downy
hair on the trunk and limbs, shed prior to birth. Premature infants
often have it, but so can full term ones. When it is dark, it can be
quite memorable.Post natal teeth, yes, but surely not a mouthful!

As for the uneven shoulders, my thought is that Richard could have
had
scoliosis, an abnormal lateral curve in the spine.This is congenital,
and if moderate to severe, will result in a noticeable deformity,
such as uneven
shoulders, legs, hips, or even cardiopulminary problems. I have a
mild
case myself, and my shoulders are uneven, though only physicians have
commented.

Lastly, I remember reading of skeletons excavated at Towton?, or
Agincourt?, that revealed abnormalities attributed to pre pubescent
strenuous exercise, so that cannot be ruled out if memory serves.

Re: Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-07 21:29:54
oregonkaty
--- In , "Rhonda"
<metrlt@s...> wrote:
> The long hair at birth could have been lanugo, which is a soft,
downy
> hair on the trunk and limbs, shed prior to birth. Premature
infants
> often have it, but so can full term ones. When it is dark, it can
be
> quite memorable.Post natal teeth, yes, but surely not a mouthful!
>
> As for the uneven shoulders, my thought is that Richard could have
> had
> scoliosis, an abnormal lateral curve in the spine.This is
congenital,
> and if moderate to severe, will result in a noticeable deformity,
> such as uneven
> shoulders, legs, hips, or even cardiopulminary problems. I have a
> mild
> case myself, and my shoulders are uneven, though only physicians
have
> commented.

Uneven shoulders, or uneven development of the muscles of the
shoulders and upper arms, can also be caused by brachial palsy, a
result of damage to the nerves of the brachial plexus serving the
arms. The most common cause of brachial palsy is birth trauma on
babies born in breech position...one or both of the infant's arms is
pulled over its head during, causing traction on the brachial
plexus. Breech babies have to be delivered quickly because their
umbilical cord is compressed and their oxygen supply is cut off as
they pass through the birth canal, so often they are more or less
pulled out, which can drag one or both arms up over their heads.

The purple-prose description of Richard's birth, remember, said he
entered the world feet first, as well as giving the description of
long hair and teeth.

I was born with two teeth, though I was not premature. But as
others have pointed out, premature babies often are covered with
lanugo, soft hair that can be an inch long.

Most tall tales have some root in reality -- I can see where the
knowledge that Richard was a premature breech baby born covered
with lanugo could get inflated into the nonsense we are left with.

For what it's worth, Waleran de Beaumont, Earl of Worcester, and
Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, of the 12th century, were
twins. Robert was said to be "uneven"...he had one shoulder higher
than the other. Twins are often positioned yin-yang in the uterus,
one head up and one head down. Possibly Robert was a breech baby
who also had brachial plexus damage from a birth injury. If so, it
didn't slow him down any, either.

Katy

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Hair, curved spines,uneven shou

2005-06-08 08:22:43
A LYON
The best known case of brachial palsy (also known as Erb's palsy) is Kaiser Wilhelm II. You can read all the gory details you could ever wish for in John Rohl: 'Young Wilhelm: The Kaiser's Early Life', Cambridge University Press 1999. Wilhelm seems to have been a very bad case (his left arm was six inches shorter than the right, and he only had very limited use of it), and by all accounts coped remarkably well - he rode, swam, fenced and even played the piano - but unlike Richard, he was never called upon to fight in battle.

Uneven physical development through exercise is a common phenomenon in rowing, where people tend to row either 'bow side' (oar on the left) or 'stroke side' (oar on the right). In fact, the Amateur Rowing Association Rules of Racing limit those aged under 15 to sculling (two oars per person, one in each hand) because of concern about back injuries caused by uneven development. By analogy, if you are using weapons mainly in one hand, and from early boyhood at that, then you are going to get differential development.

Ann







Uneven shoulders, or uneven development of the muscles of the
shoulders and upper arms, can also be caused by brachial palsy, a
result of damage to the nerves of the brachial plexus serving the
arms. The most common cause of brachial palsy is birth trauma on
babies born in breech position...one or both of the infant's arms is
pulled over its head during, causing traction on the brachial
plexus. Breech babies have to be delivered quickly because their
umbilical cord is compressed and their oxygen supply is cut off as
they pass through the birth canal, so often they are more or less
pulled out, which can drag one or both arms up over their heads.

The purple-prose description of Richard's birth, remember, said he
entered the world feet first, as well as giving the description of
long hair and teeth.

I was born with two teeth, though I was not premature. But as
others have pointed out, premature babies often are covered with
lanugo, soft hair that can be an inch long.

Most tall tales have some root in reality -- I can see where the
knowledge that Richard was a premature breech baby born covered
with lanugo could get inflated into the nonsense we are left with.

For what it's worth, Waleran de Beaumont, Earl of Worcester, and
Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, of the 12th century, were
twins. Robert was said to be "uneven"...he had one shoulder higher
than the other. Twins are often positioned yin-yang in the uterus,
one head up and one head down. Possibly Robert was a breech baby
who also had brachial plexus damage from a birth injury. If so, it
didn't slow him down any, either.

Katy







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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-08 19:37:14
Paul Trevor Bale
Oh please stop it! Why are people trying to give some sort of
credence to the Tudor writers slanders? I don't understand why,
honestly. Long hair at birth, uneven shoulders? No No No!
"The handsomest man at the court, apart from his brother the King"
that's the one I'd rather quote, not all the terrible slanders by
later writers trying to justify their other accusations of unproved
wickedness with physical deformity.
Paul


On Jun 7, 2005, at 20:16, Rhonda wrote:

> The long hair at birth could have been lanugo, which is a soft, downy
> hair on the trunk and limbs, shed prior to birth. Premature infants
> often have it, but so can full term ones. When it is dark, it can be
> quite memorable.Post natal teeth, yes, but surely not a mouthful!
>
> As for the uneven shoulders, my thought is that Richard could have
> had
> scoliosis, an abnormal lateral curve in the spine.This is congenital,
> and if moderate to severe, will result in a noticeable deformity,
> such as uneven
> shoulders, legs, hips, or even cardiopulminary problems. I have a
> mild
> case myself, and my shoulders are uneven, though only physicians have
> commented.
>
> Lastly, I remember reading of skeletons excavated at Towton?, or
> Agincourt?, that revealed abnormalities attributed to pre pubescent
> strenuous exercise, so that cannot be ruled out if memory serves.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
> ~-->
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> Donate or volunteer in the arts today at Network for Good!
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>
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>
>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 03:25:19
oregonkaty
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> Oh please stop it! Why are people trying to give some sort of
> credence to the Tudor writers slanders? I don't understand why,
> honestly. Long hair at birth, uneven shoulders? No No No!
> "The handsomest man at the court, apart from his brother the King"
> that's the one I'd rather quote, not all the terrible slanders by
> later writers trying to justify their other accusations of unproved
> wickedness with physical deformity.


Paul, I don't understand your getting so upset any time anyone
discusses the possibility that Richard was slightly physically
imperfect. It sounds like you are buying into the idea that goodness =
physical perfection and the imperfect are evil.

I don't think that the statement that Richard was the handsomest man at
court, except Edward, is necessarily a contradiction of his having
uneven shoulders. The writer said handsomest, not most physically
perfect in every way.

I know many handsome people, but I don't know any perfect ones.

[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 05:17:07
oregonkaty
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote

>
> Uneven physical development through exercise is a common phenomenon
in rowing, where people tend to row either 'bow side' (oar on the left)
or 'stroke side' (oar on the right). In fact, the Amateur Rowing
Association Rules of Racing limit those aged under 15 to sculling (two
oars per person, one in each hand) because of concern about back
injuries caused by uneven development. By analogy, if you are using
weapons mainly in one hand, and from early boyhood at that, then you
are going to get differential development.


Oh, definitely. Any activity that uses one arm more than the other can
eventually cause one arm to be larger than the other and the shoulders
to appear to be uneven.

But my point is that if, indeed, there was contemporary mention of
Richard's shoulders being uneven, it was not because he overdid sword
practice, because the over-development of the muscles of a swordsman's
arm would have been commonplace and thus unremarkable. The fact that
they were mentioned (if they were) indicates the condition was
remarkable...unusual, extraordinary, a characteristic that formed part
of a description.

In the vein of what is remarked upon being, by inference, unusual,
there is the story about the mate on a sailing ship overindulging in
grog one evening. The captain wrote in the log "Mate was drunk today."

The mate knew that would seriously damage his career, so he went to the
captain and begged him to delete the entry.

The captain adamantly refused. Anything entered in the log is
permanent and cannot be altered...the mate knew that, he declared.

The next time it was the mate's watch and he had to keep the log, the
mate wrote in it "Captain was sober today."

Katy

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 11:30:52
Paul Trevor Bale
On Jun 9, 2005, at 03:24, oregonkaty wrote:

> Paul, I don't understand your getting so upset any time anyone
> discusses the possibility that Richard was slightly physically
> imperfect. It sounds like you are buying into the idea that
> goodness =
> physical perfection and the imperfect are evil.
>

I get upset because those who argue in favour of Richard having some
kind of physical deformity are simply arguing from the opinions
disseminated after his death, as if Shakespeare got it right and
there is some cause that he simply exaggerated, "so we will grant you
this but it could just have been". Nobody in his lifetime, not even
his enemies, described anything unusual, as in the case of previous
monarchs or noble family members. My God, they even did that in Roman
times, far more dangerous times.
Of curse I don't buy into what you suggest, but you are implying the
latter, which is exactly what the Tudor historians were doing, and
succeeded in doing so well, making Richard physically deformed
because to their minds a deformed body indicated a deformed mind.
I personally believe Richard had neither. Hence my upset and people
trying to find something to prove a deformity of some shape or kind
to justify the later writings as being somehow based in fact, which
they were not.
Paul




Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Hair, curved spines,uneven shou

2005-06-09 11:39:09
Paul Trevor Bale
A bit like Churchill calling a female MP ugly. She retorted by
calling him drunk. Churchill came back with "Yes madam, but in the
morning I shall be sober....."
Paul


On Jun 9, 2005, at 05:17, oregonkaty wrote:

> The captain wrote in the log "Mate was drunk today."
>
> The mate knew that would seriously damage his career, so he went to
> the
> captain and begged him to delete the entry.
>
> The captain adamantly refused. Anything entered in the log is
> permanent and cannot be altered...the mate knew that, he declared.
>
> The next time it was the mate's watch and he had to keep the log, the
> mate wrote in it "Captain was sober today."
>



Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 15:17:59
Cecilia Latella
I absolutely agree with Paul. I don't like this kind of discussion either, because I assume that any reference to Richard's body after his death has been tainted with Tudor propaganda.
I don't believe at all that he was deformed, and the contemporary records didn't suggest it.
Cecilia

Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...> ha scritto:

I get upset because those who argue in favour of Richard having some
kind of physical deformity are simply arguing from the opinions
disseminated after his death, as if Shakespeare got it right and
there is some cause that he simply exaggerated, "so we will grant you
this but it could just have been". Nobody in his lifetime, not even
his enemies, described anything unusual, as in the case of previous
monarchs or noble family members. My God, they even did that in Roman
times, far more dangerous times.
Of curse I don't buy into what you suggest, but you are implying the
latter, which is exactly what the Tudor historians were doing, and
succeeded in doing so well, making Richard physically deformed
because to their minds a deformed body indicated a deformed mind.
I personally believe Richard had neither. Hence my upset and people
trying to find something to prove a deformity of some shape or kind
to justify the later writings as being somehow based in fact, which
they were not.
Paul








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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 16:54:30
eileen
I agree with Paul too. I did at one time think, possibly, one shoulder may have been more
developed than the other through over practicing with weapons or something like that -
but if that was the case I dont think it would have been that pronounced - if it had been
some other kind of condition I do not think it would have been possible for Richard to
have rode into battle and fought so hard. He could just have sat in a tent and surrounded
himself with body guards like spineless coward Henry Tudor. Fact is that he died'fighting
manfully in the thickest of his foes'. According to those who wrote up history for their
tudor bosses Richard was a hunchback/crookback. Simple as that. They doctored his
portraits to show this. It is hard to see how he would fit into a suit of armour. But the
biggest proof must be the fact that it is never mentioned in his lifetime that he had some
sort of physical handicap. As my old dad would have said - its a load of old baloney!
best wishes Eileen



--- In , Cecilia Latella <cabepfir@y...> wrote:
> I absolutely agree with Paul. I don't like this kind of discussion either, because I assume
that any reference to Richard's body after his death has been tainted with Tudor
propaganda.
> I don't believe at all that he was deformed, and the contemporary records didn't suggest
it.
> Cecilia
>
> Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@b...> ha scritto:
>
> I get upset because those who argue in favour of Richard having some
> kind of physical deformity are simply arguing from the opinions
> disseminated after his death, as if Shakespeare got it right and
> there is some cause that he simply exaggerated, "so we will grant you
> this but it could just have been". Nobody in his lifetime, not even
> his enemies, described anything unusual, as in the case of previous
> monarchs or noble family members. My God, they even did that in Roman
> times, far more dangerous times.
> Of curse I don't buy into what you suggest, but you are implying the
> latter, which is exactly what the Tudor historians were doing, and
> succeeded in doing so well, making Richard physically deformed
> because to their minds a deformed body indicated a deformed mind.
> I personally believe Richard had neither. Hence my upset and people
> trying to find something to prove a deformity of some shape or kind
> to justify the later writings as being somehow based in fact, which
> they were not.
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 21:05:57
Jane Ellen
--- Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...>
wrote:
>"The handsomest man at the court, apart from his
>brother the King"

Please forgive my ignorance, but could someone
enlighten me as to the source of this marvellous
quotation? Thanks ever so much.

Jane

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-09 21:18:58
eileen
Yes Jane - this remark was made by the Duchess of Desmond, who lived to a very old age.
she was able to recall that she had danced with the Duke of Gloucester when she was a
very young girl and that he had been the handsomest man in the room with the exception
of his brother Edward.
best wishes Eileen



--- In , Jane Ellen <janeellen511@y...> wrote:
> --- Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@b...>
> wrote:
> >"The handsomest man at the court, apart from his
> >brother the King"
>
> Please forgive my ignorance, but could someone
> enlighten me as to the source of this marvellous
> quotation? Thanks ever so much.
>
> Jane

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 02:02:52
oregonkaty
--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> Yes Jane - this remark was made by the Duchess of Desmond, who lived
to a very old age.
> she was able to recall that she had danced with the Duke of
Gloucester when she was a
> very young girl and that he had been the handsomest man in the room
with the exception
> of his brother Edward.

A Biblically old age, actually. Something like 140. I suspect that at
some point two different Countess of Desmond, maybe mother and
daughter, got melded into one.

There are several "old Countess of Desmond" stories, one involving a
Katherine FitzGerald, the other an Eleanor FitzGerald, Both of those
lived in later centuries, but there is a common thread -- both lived to
a truly remarkable old age and both had colorful anecdotes about their
encounters with most of the notables of their time. I suspect there is
some kind of Irish folklore involved here, but I'll leave that to
folklorists.

I don't recall for sure, but the Countess of Desmond who danced with
Richard may have been Ellen FitzGerald, the daughter of James
FitzThomas FitzGerald, the 7th Earl of Desmond and sister of the 8th,
9th, 11th, and 13th Earls of Desmond. (They seem to have had a high
mortality rate of heirs along about that time.) James's mother was
Eleanor Butler, by the way. Not the same Eleanor Butler who was
involved with Edward-the-future-IV.

Katy

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 09:14:08
Paul Trevor Bale
The Countess Desmond talking a few years after Bosworth.
Just seen Katy trashing it in her reply, trying to make it sound as
if it shouldn't be given any credence as it i probably folklore.
Well let's just leave her to have her fantasies about deformity and
leave it at that.
Countess Desmond said it. Nobody challenged her at the time, as
nobody before Bosworth mentioned anything about Richard's physical
appearance, or how such a strangely shaped man could mount a horse
and fight so well in pitched battles like Tewkesbury and Barnet.
Paul

On Jun 9, 2005, at 21:05, Jane Ellen wrote:

> --- Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...>
> wrote:
>
>> "The handsomest man at the court, apart from his
>> brother the King"
>>
>
> Please forgive my ignorance, but could someone
> enlighten me as to the source of this marvellous
> quotation? Thanks ever so much.
>
> Jane
>
>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 09:18:05
Paul Trevor Bale
Thanks Eileen and thanks Cecilia for agreeing with me. I thought I
was shouting in a wilderness alone. Good to know I wasn't.
loyaute me lie
Paul

On Jun 9, 2005, at 16:54, eileen wrote:

> According to those who wrote up history for their
> tudor bosses Richard was a hunchback/crookback. Simple as that.
> They doctored his
> portraits to show this. It is hard to see how he would fit into a
> suit of armour. But the
> biggest proof must be the fact that it is never mentioned in his
> lifetime that he had some
> sort of physical handicap. As my old dad would have said - its a
> load of old baloney!
>



Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 13:19:23
Jane Ellen
--- Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...>
wrote:
> The Countess Desmond talking a few years after
> Bosworth.

Sincere thanks to all those who answered me, I am most
grateful. I was able to find a brief reference to the
Countess in the Bertram Fields book 'Royal Blood', but
there was no source attribution for her statement.
Sadly, the only other Ricardian book currently in my
possession is Paul Murray Kendall's 'Richard the
Third' in which two of the FitzGerald Desmonds are
listed in the index, but there is no listing for the
Countess herself. A Google search was equally
frustrating.

Forgive me for being a nuisance, but could anyone
point me towards the original source material for the
Countess's statement? I would assume I'm not likely to
find it referenced in More's diatribe. [wink]

Jane

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 13:23:44
eileen
For the benefit of Jane and others who may not be familiar with the story regarding the
recollection of the Countess of Desmond of having danced with Richard - this comes
down to us through Horace Walpole, Earl of Orford, born in 1717. Walpole was one of the
earliest defenders of the memory of King Richard. Now obviously he would not have
spoken to her personally as we all know noone lives 140 years - but say she had lived
about 80 years - its possible she could have died about 1550 - it would be feasible that
Walpole could have spoke to a member of her family, a great-grandchild for example - to
whom the story had been passed down by word of mouth - a family tradition. I think that
story is one you would definitely pass down through the generations, it really is something
to be able to say your great/grandmother danced with a king!
best wishes Eileen





--- In , oregonkaty <no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , "eileen"
> <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > Yes Jane - this remark was made by the Duchess of Desmond, who lived
> to a very old age.
> > she was able to recall that she had danced with the Duke of
> Gloucester when she was a
> > very young girl and that he had been the handsomest man in the room
> with the exception
> > of his brother Edward.
>
> A Biblically old age, actually. Something like 140. I suspect that at
> some point two different Countess of Desmond, maybe mother and
> daughter, got melded into one.
>
> There are several "old Countess of Desmond" stories, one involving a
> Katherine FitzGerald, the other an Eleanor FitzGerald, Both of those
> lived in later centuries, but there is a common thread -- both lived to
> a truly remarkable old age and both had colorful anecdotes about their
> encounters with most of the notables of their time. I suspect there is
> some kind of Irish folklore involved here, but I'll leave that to
> folklorists.
>
> I don't recall for sure, but the Countess of Desmond who danced with
> Richard may have been Ellen FitzGerald, the daughter of James
> FitzThomas FitzGerald, the 7th Earl of Desmond and sister of the 8th,
> 9th, 11th, and 13th Earls of Desmond. (They seem to have had a high
> mortality rate of heirs along about that time.) James's mother was
> Eleanor Butler, by the way. Not the same Eleanor Butler who was
> involved with Edward-the-future-IV.
>
> Katy

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 14:32:42
Jane Ellen
--- eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
> For the benefit of Jane and others who may not be
> familiar with the story regarding the
> recollection of the Countess of Desmond of having
> danced with Richard - this comes
> down to us through Horace Walpole, Earl of Orford,
> born in 1717

Brilliant! I've already located the text for "Historic
Doubts on the Life and Reign of Richard III" by
Walpole online and read the citation for myself. Thank
you!! :-)

Jane

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 15:38:53
A LYON
There is an article on the Countess of Desmond story in a recent issue of 'The Ricardian', either this year's or last year's volume, which goes into the issue of the reliability of this tale in considerable detail.

Regards

Ann

Jane Ellen <janeellen511@...> wrote:
--- Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...>
wrote:
> The Countess Desmond talking a few years after
> Bosworth.

Sincere thanks to all those who answered me, I am most
grateful. I was able to find a brief reference to the
Countess in the Bertram Fields book 'Royal Blood', but
there was no source attribution for her statement.
Sadly, the only other Ricardian book currently in my
possession is Paul Murray Kendall's 'Richard the
Third' in which two of the FitzGerald Desmonds are
listed in the index, but there is no listing for the
Countess herself. A Google search was equally
frustrating.

Forgive me for being a nuisance, but could anyone
point me towards the original source material for the
Countess's statement? I would assume I'm not likely to
find it referenced in More's diatribe. [wink]

Jane


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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-10 19:47:17
oregonkaty
--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
> The Countess Desmond talking a few years after Bosworth.
> Just seen Katy trashing it in her reply, trying to make it sound as
> if it shouldn't be given any credence as it i probably folklore.

No, no, no. The Countess of Desmond may well have danced with Richard
and found him very handsome. However there is the age-slippage that
any number of historians have pointed out, so probably there are two
successive Countesses of Desmond involved in the stories.

I mentioned the fact that various Countesses of Desmond, for several
centuries, have been attributed with living to a truly incredible old
age because I think it's interesting. That, or the FitzGeralds the
Desmonds) have discovered the fountain of youth.

> Well let's just leave her to have her fantasies about deformity and
> leave it at that.

> Countess Desmond said it. Nobody challenged her at the time, as
> nobody before Bosworth mentioned anything about Richard's physical
> appearance, or how such a strangely shaped man could mount a horse
> and fight so well in pitched battles like Tewkesbury and Barnet.

I didn't ay he was "so strangely shaped". Paul. I said maybe he did
have one shoulder hgher than the other. As for how he could ride and
fight if he did, well, Robert de Beaumont seems to have had uneven
shoulders, and he managed to do the same quite well. Uneven shoulders
does not equate to being a hunchback. And I don't think that
mentioning a physical characteristic is slander. My twins, being quite
large, were born with club feet due to crowding in utero. I had never
realized I was slandering them by mentioning the fact.

Incidentally, it's libel, not slander -- the mnemonic is that libel is
literary (written) and slander is spoken.

Since Paul and others are upset by the topic, I will say no more about
it in this group.

Katy

Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Hair, curved spines,uneven shoulders

2005-06-11 00:33:33
dixonian2004
Just using rough figures gives me 80 years from the date of Bosworth
to the accession of Elizabeth I. We don't know how old this lady was
when she danced with Richard, but to have remembered it I would think
she would have to have been at least 8. This makes her about 90 when
she was making her statement. To me it sounds more like a case of "I
remember my mother?aunt/sister saying that Richard was the handsomest
man...." If she was Countess of Desmond, doesn't that mean that she
was married to the Earl? If so, who was she before she married? That
might help establish whether she had ever danced with him. I know
Edward danced with his daughters, was it common to dance with children
I wonder.

I have read that the execution of Desmnd and one or more of his sons
was the reason for Richard's animosity towards Elizabeth Woodville.
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