Re: [Richard III Society Forum] medieval drinking habits!

I think it's pretty well established that the more you drink, the less impact it has. The "small ale" was very weak, and probably not that intoxicating. I remember reading that Tudor maids-of-honour had a ration of a gallon of ale each per day! There is still the odd brewery in England that brews what is called "Boy's Bitter", about 3% alcohol or less. "Small ale" was probably a bit like that, but without the hops.

Personally I would think the water would be very dodgy unless you were drinking it from a spring - many of these were places of pilgrimage, and I think we can safely assume people drank from them. All it would take, in a town, would be for the water to get contaminated with human or animal waste, etc., and you'd be down with dysentry, cholera, whatever. I think the "dirtiness" of medieval towns can be exaggerated, but at best the sewage disposal would be a tad basic.

I think other options might be milk - although of coures that would be unpasturised and a potential health hazard - and maybe herbal infusions of one kind or another, given that boiled water is usually safe.

We are all relatively TT nowadays - in the Jane Austen era, people thought nothing of knocking back the odd bottle or two of port at a sitting, while the "lower orders" were soaked in gin 24/7.

Regards
Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: eileen
To:
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:03 PM
Subject: medieval drinking habits!


I've been thinking (oh no I hear you groan) but can someone explain to me how, with
those that could afford it drinking wine all day, & the poor ale, how it was everybody wasnt
inebriated all day, every day. Now I know nothing at all about alcohol (I hate the taste
yuk)but I would have thought that even if the women and children were drinking a weaker
type of wine/ale, if that was all you got to drink all day how it didnt have some effect on
you. Clearly it didnt (casting aside Clarence) because nothing would have ever got done
(cathedrals built, dinners cooked etc.,) I can't think of any other beverages available at
that time - other than water that is. Say if you lived in a city like York or London would the
water have been safe to drink?
best wishes Eileen




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I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the
topic of birth defects. If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a
daily basis, wouldn't there have been an extremely high rate of fetal
alcohol syndrome? Just a thought I've been pondering.

Howard






--- In , "Brian Wainwright"
<Brian@g...> wrote:
> I think it's pretty well established that the more you drink, the
less impact it has. The "small ale" was very weak, and probably not
that intoxicating. I remember reading that Tudor maids-of-honour had a
ration of a gallon of ale each per day! There is still the odd brewery
in England that brews what is called "Boy's Bitter", about 3% alcohol
or less. "Small ale" was probably a bit like that, but without the hops.
>
> Personally I would think the water would be very dodgy unless you
were drinking it from a spring - many of these were places of
pilgrimage, and I think we can safely assume people drank from them.
All it would take, in a town, would be for the water to get
contaminated with human or animal waste, etc., and you'd be down with
dysentry, cholera, whatever. I think the "dirtiness" of medieval towns
can be exaggerated, but at best the sewage disposal would be a tad basic.
>
> I think other options might be milk - although of coures that would
be unpasturised and a potential health hazard - and maybe herbal
infusions of one kind or another, given that boiled water is usually safe.
>
> We are all relatively TT nowadays - in the Jane Austen era, people
thought nothing of knocking back the odd bottle or two of port at a
sitting, while the "lower orders" were soaked in gin 24/7.
>
> Regards
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: eileen
> To:
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:03 PM
> Subject: medieval drinking habits!
>
>
> I've been thinking (oh no I hear you groan) but can someone
explain to me how, with
> those that could afford it drinking wine all day, & the poor ale,
how it was everybody wasnt
> inebriated all day, every day. Now I know nothing at all about
alcohol (I hate the taste
> yuk)but I would have thought that even if the women and children
were drinking a weaker
> type of wine/ale, if that was all you got to drink all day how it
didnt have some effect on
> you. Clearly it didnt (casting aside Clarence) because nothing
would have ever got done
> (cathedrals built, dinners cooked etc.,) I can't think of any
other beverages available at
> that time - other than water that is. Say if you lived in a city
like York or London would the
> water have been safe to drink?
> best wishes Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
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>
> a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>

Just a thought, and nothing more, but perhaps that was a factor in the very high rate of infant deaths.

Ann

Howard Heller <howard_heller@...> wrote:
I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the
topic of birth defects. If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a
daily basis, wouldn't there have been an extremely high rate of fetal
alcohol syndrome? Just a thought I've been pondering.

Howard

Hi Howard,

Given that we know that alcohol can harm a developing child in the womb, and the medieval people didn't, I am sure there would indeed have been birth defects in consequence. But no one at the time would have made the connection. If Tudor maids of honour had a gallon of ale a day (even though it was probably relatively weak, and possibly shared with any attendants they themselves had) I think we must take that as a reasonable proxy for a gentlewoman's daily intake. Those higher in rank would probably have access to as much alcohol as they fancied, and apart from birth defects there might well have been a fair rate of alcoholism and liver damage, I should imagine!


Brian
----- Original Message -----
From: Howard Heller
To:
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: medieval drinking habits!


I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the
topic of birth defects. If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a
daily basis, wouldn't there have been an extremely high rate of fetal
alcohol syndrome? Just a thought I've been pondering.

Howard






--- In , "Brian Wainwright"
<Brian@g...> wrote:
> I think it's pretty well established that the more you drink, the
less impact it has. The "small ale" was very weak, and probably not
that intoxicating. I remember reading that Tudor maids-of-honour had a
ration of a gallon of ale each per day! There is still the odd brewery
in England that brews what is called "Boy's Bitter", about 3% alcohol
or less. "Small ale" was probably a bit like that, but without the hops.
>
> Personally I would think the water would be very dodgy unless you
were drinking it from a spring - many of these were places of
pilgrimage, and I think we can safely assume people drank from them.
All it would take, in a town, would be for the water to get
contaminated with human or animal waste, etc., and you'd be down with
dysentry, cholera, whatever. I think the "dirtiness" of medieval towns
can be exaggerated, but at best the sewage disposal would be a tad basic.
>
> I think other options might be milk - although of coures that would
be unpasturised and a potential health hazard - and maybe herbal
infusions of one kind or another, given that boiled water is usually safe.
>
> We are all relatively TT nowadays - in the Jane Austen era, people
thought nothing of knocking back the odd bottle or two of port at a
sitting, while the "lower orders" were soaked in gin 24/7.
>
> Regards
> Brian
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: eileen
> To:
> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:03 PM
> Subject: medieval drinking habits!
>
>
> I've been thinking (oh no I hear you groan) but can someone
explain to me how, with
> those that could afford it drinking wine all day, & the poor ale,
how it was everybody wasnt
> inebriated all day, every day. Now I know nothing at all about
alcohol (I hate the taste
> yuk)but I would have thought that even if the women and children
were drinking a weaker
> type of wine/ale, if that was all you got to drink all day how it
didnt have some effect on
> you. Clearly it didnt (casting aside Clarence) because nothing
would have ever got done
> (cathedrals built, dinners cooked etc.,) I can't think of any
other beverages available at
> that time - other than water that is. Say if you lived in a city
like York or London would the
> water have been safe to drink?
> best wishes Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>




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There was an episode of US series Law and Order last night that dealt
with exactly the same thing, fetal alcohol syndrome, and I began
thinking exactly what you have brought up Howard. If there was only
alcohol available both ancient and medieval man and woman would be
staggering about at least half cut, producing deformed or backward
children! Something I just can't buy into.
Paul

On Jul 20, 2005, at 02:47, Howard Heller wrote:

> I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the
> topic of birth defects. If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a
> daily basis, wouldn't there have been an extremely high rate of fetal
> alcohol syndrome? Just a thought I've been pondering.
>
> Howard
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "Brian Wainwright"
> <Brian@g...> wrote:
>
>> I think it's pretty well established that the more you drink, the
>>
> less impact it has. The "small ale" was very weak, and probably not
> that intoxicating. I remember reading that Tudor maids-of-honour had a
> ration of a gallon of ale each per day! There is still the odd brewery
> in England that brews what is called "Boy's Bitter", about 3% alcohol
> or less. "Small ale" was probably a bit like that, but without the
> hops.
>
>>
>> Personally I would think the water would be very dodgy unless you
>>
> were drinking it from a spring - many of these were places of
> pilgrimage, and I think we can safely assume people drank from them.
> All it would take, in a town, would be for the water to get
> contaminated with human or animal waste, etc., and you'd be down with
> dysentry, cholera, whatever. I think the "dirtiness" of medieval towns
> can be exaggerated, but at best the sewage disposal would be a tad
> basic.
>
>>
>> I think other options might be milk - although of coures that would
>>
> be unpasturised and a potential health hazard - and maybe herbal
> infusions of one kind or another, given that boiled water is
> usually safe.
>
>>
>> We are all relatively TT nowadays - in the Jane Austen era, people
>>
> thought nothing of knocking back the odd bottle or two of port at a
> sitting, while the "lower orders" were soaked in gin 24/7.
>
>>
>> Regards
>> Brian
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: eileen
>> To:
>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 10:03 PM
>> Subject: medieval drinking habits!
>>
>>
>> I've been thinking (oh no I hear you groan) but can someone
>>
> explain to me how, with
>
>> those that could afford it drinking wine all day, & the poor ale,
>>
> how it was everybody wasnt
>
>> inebriated all day, every day. Now I know nothing at all about
>>
> alcohol (I hate the taste
>
>> yuk)but I would have thought that even if the women and children
>>
> were drinking a weaker
>
>> type of wine/ale, if that was all you got to drink all day how it
>>
> didnt have some effect on
>
>> you. Clearly it didnt (casting aside Clarence) because nothing
>>
> would have ever got done
>
>> (cathedrals built, dinners cooked etc.,) I can't think of any
>>
> other beverages available at
>
>> that time - other than water that is. Say if you lived in a city
>>
> like York or London would the
>
>> water have been safe to drink?
>> best wishes Eileen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>> a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
>>
>> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>> [email protected]
>>
>> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>>
> Service.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

you're never too old to launch your dreams

I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the topic of birth defects.  If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a daily basis, wouldn't there have been an extremely high rate of fetal alcohol syndrome?  Just a thought I've been pondering.


Howard
================================

Coming from a very, very amateurish standpoint, I'll toss in a thought or two:

The quality of wine(s) and ale(s) in question, and alcohol concentration may have something to do with it. Also how much daily drink may or may not have been diluted -- though there's that letter from Elizabeth of York to Isabel of Castile telling her to teach Catherine to drink wine for her life in England because English water is unsafe to drink. This also throws into the arena which regions drank alcohol more or less than water? If Catherine had to learn to drink wine, then did they drink less wine and more water in the South of Europe?

Joan of Arc was known to like soaking a slice of bread in weak wine. In "Castles and the Crown", Townsend Miller notes that the Castilians who accompanied Juana to Flanders for her marriage to Philip the Handsome had some culture shock at the lack of wine and the abundance of beer.

I'll take a glance through my edition of "The Goodman of Paris", wherein a 14th century Parisian husband advises his young wife on an amazing spectrum of household duties and hints. I remember him telling her how to handle and save wine, and will take a gander tonight.

I think it also has to do with adaptation and evolution of the human physique over the centuries -- I think that, in some ways, we've become less resiliant than our ancestors. Much of this would be due to a more sedentary way of life (for a great deal of us anyway); and the various nutrients/medications available to us not available to them, which may have built us up in one way, and lowered us in a couple of other ways, so that we are more susceptible to consequences of wine, tobacco, and other substances than we might have been a couple of centuries ago. Also the land is different, feeding on different substances that the fifteenth century wouldn't have. This might also have an effect on what happens when the nutrient hits the body?

Maria
elena@...

What about mead? Mead, honey wine, is a very ancient drink & still made today. There are
various types of mead, some with fruit added, some with various spices or barley.
Ingredients which, I should imagine, would have been easy to get hold of and affordable
to all except the very very poorest?

best wishes Eileen







--- In , Maria <ejbronte@o...> wrote:
> I have also been thinking about the consumption of alcohol, but on the topic of birth
defects.  If females consumed wine, ale, etc. on a daily basis, wouldn't there have been an
extremely high rate of fetal alcohol syndrome?  Just a thought I've been pondering.
>
>
> Howard
> ================================
>
> Coming from a very, very amateurish standpoint, I'll toss in a thought or two:
>
> The quality of wine(s) and ale(s) in question, and alcohol concentration may have
something to do with it. Also how much daily drink may or may not have been diluted --
though there's that letter from Elizabeth of York to Isabel of Castile telling her to teach
Catherine to drink wine for her life in England because English water is unsafe to drink.
This also throws into the arena which regions drank alcohol more or less than water? If
Catherine had to learn to drink wine, then did they drink less wine and more water in the
South of Europe?
>
> Joan of Arc was known to like soaking a slice of bread in weak wine. In "Castles and the
Crown", Townsend Miller notes that the Castilians who accompanied Juana to Flanders for
her marriage to Philip the Handsome had some culture shock at the lack of wine and the
abundance of beer.
>
> I'll take a glance through my edition of "The Goodman of Paris", wherein a 14th century
Parisian husband advises his young wife on an amazing spectrum of household duties and
hints. I remember him telling her how to handle and save wine, and will take a gander
tonight.
>
> I think it also has to do with adaptation and evolution of the human physique over the
centuries -- I think that, in some ways, we've become less resiliant than our ancestors.
Much of this would be due to a more sedentary way of life (for a great deal of us anyway);
and the various nutrients/medications available to us not available to them, which may
have built us up in one way, and lowered us in a couple of other ways, so that we are more
susceptible to consequences of wine, tobacco, and other substances than we might have
been a couple of centuries ago. Also the land is different, feeding on different substances
that the fifteenth century wouldn't have. This might also have an effect on what happens
when the nutrient hits the body?
>
> Maria
> elena@p...

Tonight while I was watching the local BBC news for the West Midlands,
I was amazed to learn that foundry workers in the Black Country (a
heavily industrialised area of the West Midlands) were known to drink
up to 60 pints of beer per day in Victorian times. Obviously a lot of
that was due to the extreme heat in which they worked, but unless the
beer was very weak (and I don't think it was) it couldn't have had too
much of an ill effect on the workers otherwise there would have been
tales of drunken foundrymen causing all sorts of problems at work.
Certainly drink was a severe social problem in the area, but I feel
that was probably more due to the dreadful conditions in which people
were living. What I wonder is who provided all this beer.

People used to brew their own ale, so the strength must have varied
quite a lot.

Also, as regards birth defects etc, the French drink a lot of wine, do
they have a high rate of birth defects and the like? I know they have
high rates of liver disease, but I've not seen anything to suggest
that they have high rates of birth defects.

On Jul 20, 2005, at 23:58, dixonian2004 wrote:

> Also, as regards birth defects etc, the French drink a lot of wine, do
> they have a high rate of birth defects and the like? I know they have
> high rates of liver disease, but I've not seen anything to suggest
> that they have high rates of birth defects.


Well they do have the highest number of alcoholics in Europe, and
let's not forget what Shakespeare said "alcohol is a great provoker,
it provoketh the desire but takes away the performance".

you're never too old to launch your dreams

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale
<paultrevor@b...> wrote:
>
> On Jul 20, 2005, at 23:58, dixonian2004 wrote:
>
> > Also, as regards birth defects etc, the French drink a lot of wine,
do
> > they have a high rate of birth defects and the like? I know they
have
> > high rates of liver disease, but I've not seen anything to suggest
> > that they have high rates of birth defects.
>
>
> Well they do have the highest number of alcoholics in Europe, and
> let's not forget what Shakespeare said "alcohol is a great provoker,
> it provoketh the desire but takes away the performance".
>
> you're never too old to launch your dreams

I've heard that French women are actually the healthiest in Europe, and
they have very healthy babies. The French tradition of drinking (apart
from those susceptible souls who become alcoholics) is moderately, with
meals, and often watered down. Women so far as I've observed, haven't
traditionallu indulged in the male tot-of-spirits-to-start-the-day
culture.

Similarly, I learned at a lecture a couple of years back that in the
middle Ages wine was always drunk watered down. Of course the wine
wasn't always very nice in those days as bottling hadn't been invented
and the wine deteriorated, rather than improved, with age. Hence all
the sweetening and spicing of it also. The same lecture said that
adding wine to water is an excellent method of killing any bugs - it
just takes about twenty minutes. So it was in fact not a substitute for
the unsafe water, but rather a useful method of rendering said water
safe to drink.

I've heard the same about the Ancient Greeks - Bacchus would actually
have been taking his wine severely watered down, and his adherents
would have been quite shocked at our consumption of neat wine.

I suspect these beer rations for the royal ladies-in-waiting would have
been meant to cover their own maids as well as their personal
consumption. I'd be interested if anyone can shed any light on that. It
seems to me the size of booze rations and gifts went up so steeply with
status that these must have been intended to sustain an entourage of
the size such a person would employ.

On the subject of Richard's intentions for the burials of his wife and
children: when he died he was in the process of founding a huge college
attached to York Minster. The building plans were apparently hugely
ambitious, and the foundations had already been laid. A lot of
historians think that is where he intended Anne and Prince Edward to
have their final resting place. Very fitting for his "northern" queen
and her son, and I think it would have been a huge PR statement to
reassure his northern followers how much he valued her and them.


Marie

n , "mariewalsh2003" <marie@r...> wrote:
>
> >
> On the subject of Richard's intentions for the burials of his wife and
> children: when he died he was in the process of founding a huge college
> attached to York Minster. The building plans were apparently hugely
> ambitious, and the foundations had already been laid. A lot of
> historians think that is where he intended Anne and Prince Edward to
> have their final resting place. Very fitting for his "northern" queen
> and her son, and I think it would have been a huge PR statement to
> reassure his northern followers how much he valued her and them.
>
>
> Marie

A beautiful thought Marie - I am sure that is how it would have been had Richard lived
long enough

Eileen