"Nursery Rhyme With a Reason"

Evening All: While helping a co-worker find Mother Goose Rhymes
for an event in October(she works many months ahead, this one does)I
came onto the following rhyme that mentions Bosworth Field:

Huff the talbot and our cat Tib
They took up sword and shield,
Tib for the red rose, Huff for the white,
To fight upon Bosworth Field.

Oh it was dreary that night to bury
Those doughty warriors dead;
Under the white rose brave dog Huff,
And a fierce Tib under the red.

Low lay Huff and long may he lie!
But our Tib took little harm:
He was up and away at dawn of day
With a rose-bush under his arm.


Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
boarder song:

Cripple Dick upon a stick
And Sandy on a sow,
Riding away to Galloway,
To buy a pound o' woo'.


Perhaps these have surfaced before on this List but they were
new to me.

"Meek"

--- In , "pvtmeek"
<pvtmeek@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Evening All: While helping a co-worker find Mother Goose
Rhymes
> for an event in October(she works many months ahead, this one does)
I
> came onto the following rhyme that mentions Bosworth Field:
>
> Huff the talbot and our cat Tib
> They took up sword and shield,
> Tib for the red rose, Huff for the white,
> To fight upon Bosworth Field.
>
> Oh it was dreary that night to bury
> Those doughty warriors dead;
> Under the white rose brave dog Huff,
> And a fierce Tib under the red.
>
> Low lay Huff and long may he lie!
> But our Tib took little harm:
> He was up and away at dawn of day
> With a rose-bush under his arm.
>
>
> Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
> boarder song:
>
> Cripple Dick upon a stick
> And Sandy on a sow,
> Riding away to Galloway,
> To buy a pound o' woo'.
>
>
> Perhaps these have surfaced before on this List but they
were
> new to me.
>


Those are interesting. I'd never heard of either of them. Nursery
rhymes and playground games often preserve a real occurence, frozen
in time.

I wonder if we can puzzle out some references in these nursery
rhumes. The Talbots, the earls of Shewsbury, had the device of a
talbot dog on their crests, as I recall. Who Tib the cat may refer
to, I don't have an idea.

The second rhyme eludes me entirely. Who Sandy on a sow might refer
to, if crippled Dick is Richard III, or why they might be going to
Galloway for wood(?)...I can't think of any references. Any ideas?

Katy

--- In , oregonkaty > >
> > Cripple Dick upon a stick
> > And Sandy on a sow,
> > Riding away to Galloway,
> > To buy a pound o' woo'.




>
> The second rhyme eludes me entirely. Who Sandy on a sow might refer
> to, if crippled Dick is Richard III, or why they might be going to
> Galloway for wood(?)...I can't think of any references. Any ideas?
>



I don't have much of clue, as the rhyme is new to me too, but it is
anti-Richard, as it mocks him, be calling him 'crippled' and by having
him make his escape on a wooden horse - I have the image of him
astride a kid's toy, a broomstick with a wooden horse's head fixed to
one end. 'Sandy'? Alexander?.......but which one....?
Which Scottish nobleman called Alexander supported Richard [viz the
boar crest]? The alliteration makes him seem a figure of ridicule....
Was Galloway a centre of the wool trade in Scotland? And therefore -
mayhap - a source of funds Richard's supporters may have hoped to
borrow or be given, to help them fight on, post Bosworth?...Am not
even at all sure the history 'fits', but that is not always a
prerequisite of contemporary rhymes. As I understand it, a core of
popular 'truth' or supposition was often enough.

Waiting eagerly for more erudite responses!


Ana

--- In , "pvtmeek"
<pvtmeek@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Evening All: While helping a co-worker find Mother Goose
Rhymes
> for an event in October(she works many months ahead, this one does)
I
> came onto the following rhyme that mentions Bosworth Field:
>
> Huff the talbot and our cat Tib
> They took up sword and shield,
> Tib for the red rose, Huff for the white,
> To fight upon Bosworth Field.
>
> Oh it was dreary that night to bury
> Those doughty warriors dead;
> Under the white rose brave dog Huff,
> And a fierce Tib under the red.
>
> Low lay Huff and long may he lie!
> But our Tib took little harm:
> He was up and away at dawn of day
> With a rose-bush under his arm.
>
>
> Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
> boarder song:
>
> Cripple Dick upon a stick
> And Sandy on a sow,
> Riding away to Galloway,
> To buy a pound o' woo'.
>
>
> Perhaps these have surfaced before on this List but they
were
> new to me.
>
> "Meek"


A talbot, I believe, was a type of hound.Don't know which came
first, the hound or the earl. As for the border diddy,is there a
title? Woo may also refer to "woe", as in sorrow, according to a
book of ballads that I have.Any "woeful" events in Galloway? Was it
burned during the incursion?
As for the cripple reference, no way am I going to touch that one
after the last spanking. lol.

Naturally the author HAD t have a Lancastrian bias .

I'm not certain that the second one shows any reference toward Richard other than "Cripple Dick", and goodness knows he had a very common name, so that might say very little. Also, who's "Sandy"?

pvtmeek <pvtmeek@...> wrote:


Evening All: While helping a co-worker find Mother Goose Rhymes
for an event in October(she works many months ahead, this one does)I
came onto the following rhyme that mentions Bosworth Field:

Huff the talbot and our cat Tib
They took up sword and shield,
Tib for the red rose, Huff for the white,
To fight upon Bosworth Field.

Oh it was dreary that night to bury
Those doughty warriors dead;
Under the white rose brave dog Huff,
And a fierce Tib under the red.

Low lay Huff and long may he lie!
But our Tib took little harm:
He was up and away at dawn of day
With a rose-bush under his arm.


Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
boarder song:

Cripple Dick upon a stick
And Sandy on a sow,
Riding away to Galloway,
To buy a pound o' woo'.


Perhaps these have surfaced before on this List but they were
new to me.

"Meek"




---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


---------------------------------

Fascinating. I hadn't come across these either. More thoughts below.

--- In , Megan Lerseth
<megan_phntmgrl@s...> wrote:
> Naturally the author HAD t have a Lancastrian bias .
>
> I'm not certain that the second one shows any reference toward
Richard other than "Cripple Dick", and goodness knows he had a very
common name, so that might say very little. Also, who's "Sandy"?
>
> pvtmeek <pvtmeek@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Evening All: While helping a co-worker find Mother Goose
Rhymes
> for an event in October(she works many months ahead, this one does)
I
> came onto the following rhyme that mentions Bosworth Field:
>
> Huff the talbot and our cat Tib
> They took up sword and shield,
> Tib for the red rose, Huff for the white,
> To fight upon Bosworth Field.
>
> Oh it was dreary that night to bury
> Those doughty warriors dead;
> Under the white rose brave dog Huff,
> And a fierce Tib under the red.
>
> Low lay Huff and long may he lie!
> But our Tib took little harm:
> He was up and away at dawn of day
> With a rose-bush under his arm.

George Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury, did fight for richard, I believe.
I don't know of anyone who had a cat for a badge as such, though
there would have been a couple of lions present - Norfolk and
Northumberland come to mind. However, Norfolk also fought for
Richard, and Northumberland fought for nobody at all.
Tib would I suppose be a name for a tabby cat, so perhaps we should
be looking for a feline with markings of some sort. I see Henry VI
used a spotted panther.
Of course, the rhyme as it was collected is probably corrupt, which
doesn't help. Possibly the other animal wasn't originally a cat at
all, but later generations thought pitting a cat against a dog made
more sense. Shrewsbury was hardly one of the big players, but perhaps
the rhyme originated in his own locality. If so, then maybe 'the cat'
was a local rival.

>
>
> Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
> boarder song:
>
> Cripple Dick upon a stick
> And Sandy on a sow,
> Riding away to Galloway,
> To buy a pound o' woo'.

I'm sure this must refer to Richard's famous Scottish campaign, in
which he went with the James III's brother, Alexander Duke of Albany
('Sandy'), and burned Dumfries, the capital of the Galloway region. I
don't know what Albany's badge was, but perhaps this rhyme is also
corrupt and the sow was originally Richard's (a derogatory allusion
to his boar badge). I guess the rhyme was written after the whole
thing was over, to take the mickey out of the pair's big ambitions
and small gains (basically Berwick - which was actually not an
unimportant capture by any means). I don't understand the allusion to
a pound of wool, though.

Marie

PS. I was amazed a couple of years ago to discover that a folk song
popular in the folk club I attended in the 1970s ('Martin said to his
Man') was a corruption of a song mocking Martin Schwarz and the
Yorkist defeat at Stoke ('Martin Schwarz and his Men'). I'd often
wondered why it was a bit hard to follow the sense of it.
Fortunately, a few lines of the original (if even that was an
original and not an adaptation of an even older song) were written
down and have survived.

Fascinating stuff.

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:

> George Talbot, Earl of Shrewsbury, did fight for richard, I
believe.
> I don't know of anyone who had a cat for a badge as such, though
> there would have been a couple of lions present - Norfolk and
> Northumberland come to mind. However, Norfolk also fought for
> Richard, and Northumberland fought for nobody at all.


I noticed that Arthur "Plantagenet", Lord Lisle, the alleged bsstard
son of Edward IV, has a cat on his crest. (Not that he took part in
Bosworth.) It's a leopard, though, In fact, the badge is, to my mind,
a visual pun of a leopard changing its spots. The animal is passing
through some reeds and the spots on one end of its body, on one side
of the reeds, appear in opposite colors on the half of its body on
the other side of the reeds. I have a distinct feeling that
something is being conveyed in this little tableau.

Badges, crests and devices of our favorite era sometimes contained
puns, such as the talbot hound on the Talbot crest, or told a story,
such as the swan wearing a loose collar in the shape of a crown, but
weighed down by a heavy chain, on the de Bohun crest. I have a thick
book about crests; I'll look for cats on crests and badges.

Katy

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> > Then there's the next one which is believed to be a
Scottish
> > boarder song:
> >
> > Cripple Dick upon a stick
> > And Sandy on a sow,
> > Riding away to Galloway,
> > To buy a pound o' woo'.
>
> I'm sure this must refer to Richard's famous Scottish campaign, in
> which he went with the James III's brother, Alexander Duke of
Albany
> ('Sandy'), and burned Dumfries, the capital of the Galloway region.
I
> don't know what Albany's badge was, but perhaps this rhyme is also
> corrupt and the sow was originally Richard's (a derogatory allusion
> to his boar badge). I guess the rhyme was written after the whole
> thing was over, to take the mickey out of the pair's big ambitions
> and small gains (basically Berwick - which was actually not an
> unimportant capture by any means). I don't understand the allusion
to
> a pound of wool, though.


Thinking about that "pound o' woo'", which rhymes with, or is
intended to rhyme with, sow...a Scotsman I know has a beautiful red
hide with hair on it on his den floor. When I asked what animal it
was, he told me it was from a "Heeland coo" -- a Highland cow.
So perhaps "sow" in this ditty is pronounced to "sew", and Dick and
Sandy are going to get themselves a pound of woe in Galloway. A pack
of trouble...even if technically they won, the mocking tone of the
rhyme implies.

Katy

--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> >
> > > Then there's the next one which is believed to be a
> Scottish
> > > boarder song:
> > >
> > > Cripple Dick upon a stick
> > > And Sandy on a sow,
> > > Riding away to Galloway,
> > > To buy a pound o' woo'.
> >
> > I'm sure this must refer to Richard's famous Scottish campaign,
in
> > which he went with the James III's brother, Alexander Duke of
> Albany
> > ('Sandy'), and burned Dumfries, the capital of the Galloway
region.
> I
> > don't know what Albany's badge was, but perhaps this rhyme is
also
> > corrupt and the sow was originally Richard's (a derogatory
allusion
> > to his boar badge). I guess the rhyme was written after the whole
> > thing was over, to take the mickey out of the pair's big
ambitions
> > and small gains (basically Berwick - which was actually not an
> > unimportant capture by any means). I don't understand the
allusion
> to
> > a pound of wool, though.
>
>
> Thinking about that "pound o' woo'", which rhymes with, or is
> intended to rhyme with, sow...a Scotsman I know has a beautiful red
> hide with hair on it on his den floor. When I asked what animal it
> was, he told me it was from a "Heeland coo" -- a Highland cow.
> So perhaps "sow" in this ditty is pronounced to "sew", and Dick and
> Sandy are going to get themselves a pound of woe in Galloway. A
pack
> of trouble...even if technically they won, the mocking tone of the
> rhyme implies.
>
> Katy

I'd assumed woo' was wool with vocalised 'l' - the apostrophe showing
where the 'l' should be. Perhaps a Scottish member of the forum could
help, but the modern pronunciation of sow (to rhyme with ow!)
suggests the older pronunciation would have been 'soo'; also I'm
pretty sure that the Scots word for woe was wae. Yes, I do think
that's a pound of wool. Perhaps Berwick or Dumfries were noted wool
towns? or is this a way of saying that all Gloucester and Albany got
from Scotland were a few sheep?

Katy's Lisle cat is interesting. My booklet says the previous Lord
Lisle - the Talbot one killed at Nibley Green - used the same badge.
However, the title was in abeyance at the time of Bosworth. A rhyme
with possibly two Talbot badges, though: interesting.

Marie

Warwick's arms featured the bear with the ragged staff - could that be
the stick? I don't know whether Anne Neville's arms showed her
father's arms, but it seems likely.

I'm inclined to think the sow reference is a play on Richard's own
badge of the white boar.

However, I seem to recall that the Wars of the Roses were not called
that until long after the event, so I am a bit doubtful about the
reference to carrying off the rose bush.

The cat reference seems to imply that someone pretended to be dead.
The only other dog I can think of is Francis Lovell, who was known as
the King's Spaniel, but he wasn't at the battle.

Wool was a valuable commodity, is there an implication that this war
was fought for economic gains - rather like another war which shall
remain nameless. I must admit when I first read the rhyme I assumed
the reference was to woe not wool.

--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
> Warwick's arms featured the bear with the ragged staff - could that
be
> the stick? I don't know whether Anne Neville's arms showed her
> father's arms, but it seems likely.

This of course was Warwick's badge rather than his coat of arms. I
don't think Richard himself would have used it. If the sow is a
reference to Richard's boar, then the stick ought to refer to
Albany's badge. He was claiming the throne of Scotland - could the
item have been a thistle in an earlier version of the rhyme,
perhaps? "Cripple Dick upon a thistle" - it alliterates well.

>
> I'm inclined to think the sow reference is a play on Richard's own
> badge of the white boar.
>
> However, I seem to recall that the Wars of the Roses were not
called
> that until long after the event, so I am a bit doubtful about the
> reference to carrying off the rose bush.

The name 'Wars of the Roses' is very late indeed - late 18th or early
q9th century, I think. However, Henry VII did introduce the red rose
as a new symbol of Lancaster and institute the symbolism of the union
of the two roses, so the idea of a fight between the red and white
roses would have been possible during Henry VII's reign, though not
immediately after the battle. I'm inclined to think that these rhymes
develop over time.


>
> The cat reference seems to imply that someone pretended to be
dead.
> The only other dog I can think of is Francis Lovell, who was known
as
> the King's Spaniel, but he wasn't at the battle.

He may have been - it's not known for sure. The obvious thing is
for 'Talbot' to have been a Talbot, but the reference could just have
referred to Lovell's badge although I question whether anyone would
muddy the waters by using Talbot as a name if they didn't mean a
member of that family. If it did mean Lovell, though, the cat could
have been Catesby, and this might originally have been a one-sided
rhyme about the downfall (not death) of 'the Cat. . . and Lovell our
Dog' at Bosworth. Could the rosebush the cat came away with at the
end of the battle be a reference to Henry's thornbush?
Alternatively, could we have here a corruption of a rhyme about the
death of the Great Talbot at Castillon?

>
> Wool was a valuable commodity, is there an implication that this
war
> was fought for economic gains - rather like another war which shall
> remain nameless. I must admit when I first read the rhyme I
assumed
> the reference was to woe not wool.

The reason for the war was the constant border raiding by the Scots -
often right down into Yorkshire. Although Albany wasn't put on the
Scottish throne, Richard did pretty much achieve his aim of making
the northern English counties more secure from military incursions.
For the government, however, the war was bound to be costly, and in
the event could be described by as economic disaster. It was very
expensive, the newly-regained Berwick was going to be costly to
maintain, and Richard had refused to recoup the financial losses by
sacking Edinburgh. Perhaps his men did manage to "repossess" a few
sheep, though.

Marie

--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
>I don't understand the allusion
> to
> > a pound of wool, though.
>
>
> Thinking about that "pound o' woo'", which rhymes with, or is
> intended to rhyme with, sow...a Scotsman I know has a beautiful red
> hide with hair on it on his den floor. When I asked what animal it
> was, he told me it was from a "Heeland coo" -- a Highland cow.
> So perhaps "sow" in this ditty is pronounced to "sew", and Dick and
> Sandy are going to get themselves a pound of woe in Galloway. A pack
> of trouble...even if technically they won, the mocking tone of the
> rhyme implies.
>

To comment upon my own post, I looked up that nursey rhyme everywhere I
could. Three of them say "a pound of woo'" and one says "a pound of
woo." I think the latter is a case of the apostrophe having gone
astray, since the context doesn't seem to go with the idea of Dick and
Sandy going to Galloway looking for love. None of the four said it
was a pound of woe, so there goes my theory.

Katy

--- In , Megan Lerseth >
> Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
> boarder song:
>
> Cripple Dick upon a stick
> And Sandy on a sow,
> Riding away to Galloway,
> To buy a pound o' woo'.


I have also looked for this one in compendiums of nursery rhymes, and
sometimes the first line is

Hurple Dick upon a stick...

However I can't find a definition of "hurple," not even in the
Oxford English Dictionary. One online dictionary claims to include
it, but you have to enroll and pay money to look at the definition.
I have googled it up in another hit, which was soneone replying to a
statement that nothing rhymes with purple, by saying that hurple
does... but not saying what hurple means.

Does anyone know? Might be interesting.

Katy

oregonkaty <[email protected]> writes
>--- In , Megan Lerseth >
>>       Then there's the next one which is believed to be a Scottish
>> boarder song:
>>
>>        Cripple Dick upon a stick
>>        And Sandy on a sow,
>>        Riding away to Galloway,
>>        To buy a pound o' woo'.
>
>
>I have also looked for this one in compendiums of nursery rhymes, and
>sometimes the first line is
>
>         Hurple Dick upon a stick...
>
>However I can't find a definition of "hurple,"  not even in the
>Oxford English Dictionary.  One online dictionary claims to include
>it, but you have to enroll and pay money to look at the definition. 
>I have googled it up in another hit, which was soneone replying to a
>statement that nothing rhymes with purple, by saying that hurple
>does... but not saying what hurple means.
>Does anyone know?  Might be interesting.


******************

Hi Katy

As I understand it to 'hurple' means to move along quite quickly but
unevenly ie on one/no leg/s as in 'crippled'.
For example someone who is competent at using a crutch swinging along at
a reasonably fast pace.

I remember many moons ago having a discussion about 'hurpling' with a
friend but where we got the definition from I havent a clue:)))

HTH
Jacqui

I believe it means someone who cannot walk properly. I came across it
in a book by Ellis Peters once.

Hmmm . . . knowing virtually nothing about the subject, might I suppose,
given the obvious meaning of "cripple," and the possible meaning of
"hurple," that the reference to "on a stick" might refer to a crutch??



BTW, is it true that the word "sow" was pronounced "soo" in Scottish (???)
dialect?



And, yes, it kind of appears that this bit of doggerel may well refer to
Richard. Verrry interrrresting!



Johanne



_____

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of dixonian2004
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 7:38 PM
To:
Subject: Re: "Nursery Rhyme With a Reason"



I believe it means someone who cannot walk properly. I came across it
in a book by Ellis Peters once.

In message <dceb40+atq9@...>, dixonian2004
<sally-turfrey@...> writes
>I believe it means someone who cannot walk properly.  I came across it
>in a book by Ellis Peters once.

**************

That's where I read it!!! :)) You cant remember which one can you?

Thanks

Jacqui

--

--- In , "Johanne Tournier"
<jltournier@n...> wrote:
>
> BTW, is it true that the word "sow" was pronounced "soo" in Scottish
(???)
> dialect?


I don't know (but I'm sure someone in the forum does)..I was just
thinking it might, since cow is pronounced coo, at least by my Scots
friend.

Katy

--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> --- In , "Johanne Tournier"
> <jltournier@n...> wrote:
> >
> > BTW, is it true that the word "sow" was pronounced "soo" in
Scottish
> (???)
> > dialect?
>
>
> I don't know (but I'm sure someone in the forum does)..I was just
> thinking it might, since cow is pronounced coo, at least by my
Scots
> friend.
>
> Katy

I've found a Scots dictionary on the net at www.dsl.ac.uk.

You can find the variants for the word for wool under 'wol' -
including woo! Also, woe is wae.

There's some interesting stuff under 'hirple'. Definition in "to walk
slowly and painfully or with a limp, to hobble; to move unevenly, as
a hare."

There are some lovely quotations to illustrate, such as "Maist o'
them knock-neiy'd an splae-fitted, an' a' hirplin' an' limpin' as if
they had a corn on every tae".

I'm sure the stick in the rhyme would have been a walking stick, as
in: "I've seen him often enough hirplin' round, hiom and his stick".
The image seems to be of a lame man pogo-ing up to Galloway on his
walking stick.
INTERESTINGLY, colloquial expressions for 'a halt or limping person'
are 'hirple-Dick' and 'Cripple Dick' (also 'hirple Doddie'). I find
it quite hard to believe that these Scottish expressions are likely
to derive from Richard III (unless they're a borrowing from the
English 'Crookback Dick'), so I'm wondering whether the mere
existence of these expressions brought about a change in the original
rhyme, particularly once people had forgotten what it was really all
about.

I'm very tempted to play games rewriting the original verse(s) - this
four lines of doggerel may be all that's left of a long poem on
Richard's Scottish campaign. I've though of a couple of other Border
ballads with the same rythm - their only rhyme is the ends of lines 2
and 4. So the original poem/song may not have had internal rhymes
like Dick and stick on the first line at all. How about "English Dick
upon a boar/ and Sandy on a sow".

It's amazing where some nursery rhymes come from. "Cock-a-doodle-doo/
my dame has lost her shoe/ my master's lost his fiddling stick" has
its earliest known form in a late medieval rhyme about a girl and boy
having lost their sexual innocence.
Chimes in with what Katy was saying about us not always realising
when we're dealing with obsolete euphemisms.

Marie

I can't remember the exact title, but I think it was something
like "The Confession of Brother Haluen" It was one of the Brother
Cadfael series and is about a monk who fell off a roof and was
crippled, but insisted on going somewhere for some reason I've
forgotten!

<sally-turfrey@...> writes
>I can't remember the exact title, but I think it was something
>like "The Confession of Brother Haluen"  It was one of the Brother
>Cadfael series and is about a monk who fell off a roof and was
>crippled, but insisted on going somewhere for some reason I've
>forgotten!

*** Thanks:) I have the book, Ill reread it & post the quote when I find
it.

Jacqui
--