Clarence Coat of Arms

Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.

I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat of
arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.

Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?

Is this any help? (second image from bottom)

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
002.htm

Regards,
Antonia


--- In , "meenivettle"
<meenivettle@y...> wrote:
>
> Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
>
> I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat
of
> arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
>

Looks like you and I found the same page at the same time. Heraldry is
certainly fascinating isn't it?

antonia_barker wrote:

> Is this any help? (second image from bottom)
>
> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
> 002.htm
>
> Regards,
> Antonia
>
>
> --- In , "meenivettle"
> <meenivettle@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
> >
> > I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat
> of
> > arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
> >
> > Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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> United kingdom vacation
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Try these:
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/002.htm
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p362.htm#i22192
The description of his arm is: /label argent on each point canton gules

/meenivettle wrote:

> Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
>
> I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat of
> arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Thank you!

--- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Try these:
>
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
002.htm
> http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~cousin/html/p362.htm#i22192
> The description of his arm is: /label argent on each point canton
gules
>
> /meenivettle wrote:
>
> > Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
> >
> > I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat
of
> > arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
> >
> > Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
>
>
>
>
>

It certainly looks fascinating - unfortunately I don't really know
too much about it. I'm a keen genealogist but all my lot were
paupers! There's a small chance I can link them to the Sutton-
Dudleys of Dudley Castle though, and thence be a descendant of
Elizabeth Woodville through her first marriage :)


--- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Looks like you and I found the same page at the same time.
Heraldry is
> certainly fascinating isn't it?
>
> antonia_barker wrote:
>
> > Is this any help? (second image from bottom)
> >
> >
http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
> > 002.htm
> >
> > Regards,
> > Antonia
> >
> >
> > --- In , "meenivettle"
> > <meenivettle@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
> > >
> > > I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the
coat
> > of
> > > arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
> > >
> > > Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom+v
acation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=ZGC050esfLsnDa8-
zDJVCQ>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingd
om+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=YznZ9Rec3s-
oV3kumw2Vow>
> > United kingdom travel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+travel&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom
+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=VpN6zGvCBCl-t-
Ddy5lESQ>
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
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>
>
>
>

We're all related.

When the 'iceman' was discovered in the Italian alps a few years back,
it was estimated that he was four thousand years old, and that
one-quarter of all modern European stock was likely descended from him
in some way.

Hi cuz!

antonia_barker wrote:

> It certainly looks fascinating - unfortunately I don't really know
> too much about it. I'm a keen genealogist but all my lot were
> paupers! There's a small chance I can link them to the Sutton-
> Dudleys of Dudley Castle though, and thence be a descendant of
> Elizabeth Woodville through her first marriage :)
>
>
> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Looks like you and I found the same page at the same time.
> Heraldry is
> > certainly fascinating isn't it?
> >
> > antonia_barker wrote:
> >
> > > Is this any help? (second image from bottom)
> > >
> > >
> http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
> > > 002.htm
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Antonia
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "meenivettle"
> > > <meenivettle@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
> > > >
> > > > I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the
> coat
> > > of
> > > > arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom+v
> acation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=ZGC050esfLsnDa8-
> zDJVCQ>
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingd
> om+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=YznZ9Rec3s-
> oV3kumw2Vow>
> > > United kingdom travel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+travel&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom
> +vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=VpN6zGvCBCl-t-
> Ddy5lESQ>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
> the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
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> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
> -------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=ZGC050esfLsnDa8-zDJVCQ>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=YznZ9Rec3s-oV3kumw2Vow>
> United kingdom travel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+travel&w1=Call+united+kingdom&w2=United+kingdom+vacation&w3=United+kingdom+travel&c=3&s=81&.sig=VpN6zGvCBCl-t-Ddy5lESQ>
>
>
>
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Just to mention that this document shows Clarence's own arms (England and France, a label of three points argent, on each point a canton gules) quartered with those of his wife, Isabel Neville (everything else on the shield). This is logical because Clarence's connection with Tewkesbury came from his marriage. The Rous Roll (or is it the Beauchamp Pageant?) shows Richard's arms impaled with Anne's in similar fashion.

Ann

antonia_barker <antonia_barker@...> wrote:
Is this any help? (second image from bottom)

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/dept/scwmss/wmss/medieval/mss/top/glouc/d/
002.htm

Regards,
Antonia


--- In , "meenivettle"
<meenivettle@y...> wrote:
>
> Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
>
> I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat
of
> arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
>







SPONSORED LINKS
Call united kingdom United kingdom vacation United kingdom travel

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I've been researching 15th century heraldry for my own set of cards
for the Kingmaker board game. You'll find my Clarence card in set 2
of the peerage. Since the set is based on a 1453 start it does not
give him the Clarence title which he was awarded after Edward became
King in 1461.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/avalonhillskingmakerclub/files/Adv
anced%20Kingmaker%20/

Curiously one set of arms I cannot find out about is that of Edward
before he became King. I assume its the Royal Arms with a label, but
don't know what the label might be. Its also difficult to find out
which quarters were born by the various nobles, as marshalling of
arms was only just coming into fashion.

Incidentally, there is no evidence that Richard III had any kind of
genetic illness. The story of his hunchback is of course a Tudor
invention. If he had one shoulder larger than the other this would
have been from practising at weaponry rather than a birth deformity.
It's surprising there's not more evidence of congenital illness in
the 15th century nobility, as most of them were decended from Edward
III many times over, and marriage between first cousins was
commonplace despite the need to obtain papal dispensation.



--- In , "meenivettle"
<meenivettle@y...> wrote:
>
> Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
>
> I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat of
> arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
>

Hopr this link works:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/avalonhillskingmakerclub/files


-- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> I've been researching 15th century heraldry for my own set of cards
> for the Kingmaker board game. You'll find my Clarence card in set 2
> of the peerage. Since the set is based on a 1453 start it does not
> give him the Clarence title which he was awarded after Edward
became
> King in 1461.
>
>
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/avalonhillskingmakerclub/files/Adv
> anced%20Kingmaker%20/
>
> Curiously one set of arms I cannot find out about is that of Edward
> before he became King. I assume its the Royal Arms with a label,
but
> don't know what the label might be. Its also difficult to find out
> which quarters were born by the various nobles, as marshalling of
> arms was only just coming into fashion.
>
> Incidentally, there is no evidence that Richard III had any kind of
> genetic illness. The story of his hunchback is of course a Tudor
> invention. If he had one shoulder larger than the other this would
> have been from practising at weaponry rather than a birth deformity.
> It's surprising there's not more evidence of congenital illness in
> the 15th century nobility, as most of them were decended from
Edward
> III many times over, and marriage between first cousins was
> commonplace despite the need to obtain papal dispensation.
>
>
>
> --- In , "meenivettle"
> <meenivettle@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Quick question for those more knowledgeable than I.
> >
> > I've been trying to find an image and/or description of the coat
of
> > arms used by George, Duke of Clarence and not had any luck.
> >
> > Does anyone have a suggestion and/or link?
> >
>

--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>

>
> Incidentally, there is no evidence that Richard III had any kind of
> genetic illness. The story of his hunchback is of course a Tudor
> invention. If he had one shoulder larger than the other this would
> have been from practising at weaponry rather than a birth deformity.


I think Paul Murray Kendall is the source of that theory that Richard
overdeveloped one shoulder via enthusiastic sword-practice.

But then wouldn't every professional soldier have similar uneven
shoulders, so it would not be remrkable? (If something is remarked
upon, it must be remarkable.) And from what I've read, a short axe,
not a sword, was Richard's weapon of choice.

I think Kendall just muddied the waters by trying to account for the
uneven shoulers Richard may or may not have had as if, as mentioned,
such a physical anomaly cast a negative light on his character.

Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, had uneven shoulders -- some
accounts call him a hunchback -- and was known as Robert le Bossu
(Robert the Uneven). He was the first-born of twins, which could
account for a birth injury, especially if he was a breech birth. The
presence of twins often causes abnormal birth presentations.

A common birth injury, before modern obstetrics, was brachial palsy,
caused by injury to the nerve complex of an arm by the arm being
pulled up over the head of a breech-delivered baby, or by pressure of
a finger hooked in the baby's armpit to aid its delivery. Brachial
palsy can be as mild as a little weakness of the affected arm or
inability turn it this way or that, or as severe as complete
withering of the arm, and in between are various degrees of
incomplete development of the shoulder muscles, leading to uneven
shoulders.

Katy

I am a rowing umpire and rowers are typically a bit lopsided in their physical development, unless they make a point of rowing 'both sides' instead of only 'stroke side' or only 'bow side' (this relates to which side of the boat your oar blade goes). In fact, the governing body are sufficiently concerned about uneven development to prohibit those under 15 from racing in 'rowing' as distinct from 'sculling' events. Technically, in rowing events ('sweep oars') each person has one oar; in sculling, two.



By far the best-known sufferer from brachial palsy (also known as Erb's Palsy) was Kaiser Wilhelm II, who seems to have been a particularly bad case. His left arm was six inches shorter than the right and of very limited use despite all kinds of treatment (including electric shocks and various arm lengthening devices). Wilhelm's lopsidedness apparently affected his entire torso (because the muscles on the left side developed less than the right through lack of use), and also his balance.



Ann



Robert de Beaumont, Earl of Leicester, had uneven shoulders -- some
accounts call him a hunchback -- and was known as Robert le Bossu
(Robert the Uneven). He was the first-born of twins, which could
account for a birth injury, especially if he was a breech birth. The
presence of twins often causes abnormal birth presentations.

A common birth injury, before modern obstetrics, was brachial palsy,
caused by injury to the nerve complex of an arm by the arm being
pulled up over the head of a breech-delivered baby, or by pressure of
a finger hooked in the baby's armpit to aid its delivery. Brachial
palsy can be as mild as a little weakness of the affected arm or
inability turn it this way or that, or as severe as complete
withering of the arm, and in between are various degrees of
incomplete development of the shoulder muscles, leading to uneven
shoulders.

Katy











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