Witchcraft in Titulus Regius

It seems ludicrous that Richard III accused Queen Elizabeth Woodville
of witchcraft in Titulus Regius, but such matters were taken seriously
then. The basic academic doctrines, vague though they were, of the
later witch hunting were laid down in documents of the later medieval
period, built on longstanding folk beliefs, fear of the Devil and
heresy, such as the 14th century Cathars. Did groups of people regard
themselves as witches as a hangover from pagan religions? In any case,
Pope Innocent VIII in his Bull Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484,
during Richard III's reign, made clear that he thought witchcraft,
specifically in upper Germany, was a very real problem.

Although we might understand the concept of 'Zeitgeist' or 'Spirit of
the Age', it is impossible to crawl into the Zeitgeist of another era,
regardless the amount of factual information we have about that era.

And who's to say these people were wrong in their assessments of cause
and effect? The universe seems to be a shape-shifter that becomes
anything we want it to be. I'm sure that our belief structures will be
as quaint to our descendants five hundred years from now as Richard's
are to us.

The older I get, the less sure I am that we progress in knowledge and
wisdom. Sometimes we just get more arrogant.

richardrichardrobert wrote:

>
> It seems ludicrous that Richard III accused Queen Elizabeth Woodville
> of witchcraft in Titulus Regius, but such matters were taken seriously
> then. The basic academic doctrines, vague though they were, of the
> later witch hunting were laid down in documents of the later medieval
> period, built on longstanding folk beliefs, fear of the Devil and
> heresy, such as the 14th century Cathars. Did groups of people regard
> themselves as witches as a hangover from pagan religions? In any case,
> Pope Innocent VIII in his Bull Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484,
> during Richard III's reign, made clear that he thought witchcraft,
> specifically in upper Germany, was a very real problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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the first website below has some interesting information regarding witchcraft before, during and after the war of the roses.

the writer is not a richard iii fan, however, the information regarding the allegations of witchcraft is still valid. quite an interesting read.
http://www.fortunecity.com/roswell/angelic/361/6.htm

below is another interesting timeline url regarding witchcraft. it has info regarding the allegations against woodville, jane shore, john morton, margaret beaufort (H7's mothers).

it again starts several hundred years prior to era discussed in this forum. so scroll or use your find in page feature to get to the relevent time period.
http://www.personal.utulsa.edu/~marc-carlson/witchtrial/eis.html

i know i have more info buried in my files, but i'm somewhat busy tonight. you will find names of books you can use to do further research on this topic.

often i can find such books for sale at a reasonable price at www.bookfinder.com

enjoy
roslyn
richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:

It seems ludicrous that Richard III accused Queen Elizabeth Woodville
of witchcraft in Titulus Regius, but such matters were taken seriously
then. The basic academic doctrines, vague though they were, of the
later witch hunting were laid down in documents of the later medieval
period, built on longstanding folk beliefs, fear of the Devil and
heresy, such as the 14th century Cathars. Did groups of people regard
themselves as witches as a hangover from pagan religions? In any case,
Pope Innocent VIII in his Bull Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484,
during Richard III's reign, made clear that he thought witchcraft,
specifically in upper Germany, was a very real problem.







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Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years, though now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but the belief has never quite died away.

In the last Australian census about 3,000 or 4,000 people put down Wiccan as their "religion"!

Helen

William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Although we might understand the concept of 'Zeitgeist' or 'Spirit of
the Age', it is impossible to crawl into the Zeitgeist of another era,
regardless the amount of factual information we have about that era.

And who's to say these people were wrong in their assessments of cause
and effect? The universe seems to be a shape-shifter that becomes
anything we want it to be. I'm sure that our belief structures will be
as quaint to our descendants five hundred years from now as Richard's
are to us.

The older I get, the less sure I am that we progress in knowledge and
wisdom. Sometimes we just get more arrogant.

richardrichardrobert wrote:

>
> It seems ludicrous that Richard III accused Queen Elizabeth Woodville
> of witchcraft in Titulus Regius, but such matters were taken seriously
> then. The basic academic doctrines, vague though they were, of the
> later witch hunting were laid down in documents of the later medieval
> period, built on longstanding folk beliefs, fear of the Devil and
> heresy, such as the 14th century Cathars. Did groups of people regard
> themselves as witches as a hangover from pagan religions? In any case,
> Pope Innocent VIII in his Bull Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484,
> during Richard III's reign, made clear that he thought witchcraft,
> specifically in upper Germany, was a very real problem.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
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There are 21,080 declared pagans in Canada, but then, not all pagans are
Wiccans (I think).

Helen Rowe wrote:

> Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years, though now
> it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but the
> belief has never quite died away.
>
> In the last Australian census about 3,000 or 4,000 people put down
> Wiccan as their "religion"!
>
> Helen
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Although we might understand the concept of 'Zeitgeist' or 'Spirit of
> the Age', it is impossible to crawl into the Zeitgeist of another era,
> regardless the amount of factual information we have about that era.
>
> And who's to say these people were wrong in their assessments of cause
> and effect? The universe seems to be a shape-shifter that becomes
> anything we want it to be. I'm sure that our belief structures will be
> as quaint to our descendants five hundred years from now as Richard's
> are to us.
>
> The older I get, the less sure I am that we progress in knowledge and
> wisdom. Sometimes we just get more arrogant.
>
> richardrichardrobert wrote:
>
> >
> > It seems ludicrous that Richard III accused Queen Elizabeth Woodville
> > of witchcraft in Titulus Regius, but such matters were taken seriously
> > then. The basic academic doctrines, vague though they were, of the
> > later witch hunting were laid down in documents of the later medieval
> > period, built on longstanding folk beliefs, fear of the Devil and
> > heresy, such as the 14th century Cathars. Did groups of people regard
> > themselves as witches as a hangover from pagan religions? In any case,
> > Pope Innocent VIII in his Bull Summis desiderantes, Dec. 5th, 1484,
> > during Richard III's reign, made clear that he thought witchcraft,
> > specifically in upper Germany, was a very real problem.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the
> web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
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> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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--- In , Helen Rowe
<sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years, though
now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but the
belief has never quite died away.


I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way of
trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
order to it.

Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of perspective.
I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I could
just as easily call them both witchcraft.

Katy

Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil Leek
was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of course.
She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of Burley. She
got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.

oregonkaty wrote:

> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years, though
> now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but the
> belief has never quite died away.
>
>
> I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way of
> trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
> order to it.
>
> Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of perspective.
> I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I could
> just as easily call them both witchcraft.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
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Thanks for the replies on this.

Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and brother
when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
prematurely.

Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage in
striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the slavish
adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced many
less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest. And
was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?

--- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
Leek
> was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
course.
> She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
Burley. She
> got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
>
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
though
> > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but
the
> > belief has never quite died away.
> >
> >
> > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way
of
> > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
> > order to it.
> >
> > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
perspective.
> > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
could
> > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> >
> > Katy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
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g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
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ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
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.sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
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> >
> >
> >
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--- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
Leek
> was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
course.
> She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
Burley. She
> got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.

Mmm. I'm sure she's great fun though I never saw her or read any of
her books. However, though I believe she was not a native of the
village, she seems to have been responsible for the idea that the
people of Burley (New Forest) have been dabbling in witchcraft in
their dingly dell since time immemorial. Even Edward Rutherford fell
for it, and his 'Forest', fictionalised history of the New Forest,
has Burley a very dark and creepy place and all the locals casting
spells for all they're worth. Now the place is chock full of witchy
grot shops. My grandmother's people came from Burley, and every time
I tell someone that I tend to get these dark suspicious looks.
It really is a lovely place, and I actually do think it has a
numinous feel, but a very good one.
Marie
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
>
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
though
> > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but
the
> > belief has never quite died away.
> >
> >
> > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way
of
> > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
> > order to it.
> >
> > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
perspective.
> > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
could
> > just as easily call them both witchcraft.

JRR Tolkien viewed magic and technology as being very akin - both
arising from a desire for power over nature.

A very good friend, who came to came to Canada over thirty years ago,
was raised in New Forest. She remembers hitting the local pubs where
Sybil could be found cadging drinks and dropping names of famous people
in her coven. Apparently Sybil liked hopping over to this side of the
pond where she could hook up with gullible entertainment types in
California.

She did put a good show, though.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:

> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
> Leek
> > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> course.
> > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> Burley. She
> > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
>
> Mmm. I'm sure she's great fun though I never saw her or read any of
> her books. However, though I believe she was not a native of the
> village, she seems to have been responsible for the idea that the
> people of Burley (New Forest) have been dabbling in witchcraft in
> their dingly dell since time immemorial. Even Edward Rutherford fell
> for it, and his 'Forest', fictionalised history of the New Forest,
> has Burley a very dark and creepy place and all the locals casting
> spells for all they're worth. Now the place is chock full of witchy
> grot shops. My grandmother's people came from Burley, and every time
> I tell someone that I tend to get these dark suspicious looks.
> It really is a lovely place, and I actually do think it has a
> numinous feel, but a very good one.
> Marie
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> >
> > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> though
> > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but
> the
> > > belief has never quite died away.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way
> of
> > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
> > > order to it.
> > >
> > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> perspective.
> > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
> could
> > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
>
> JRR Tolkien viewed magic and technology as being very akin - both
> arising from a desire for power over nature.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
>
>
>
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>

interesting note
henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was licenced to practice under edward iv.

while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other poisonous chemicals.

i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.

also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal grandfather to nostradamus.

roslyn

richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:
Thanks for the replies on this.

Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and brother
when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
prematurely.

Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage in
striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the slavish
adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced many
less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest. And
was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?

--- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
Leek
> was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
course.
> She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
Burley. She
> got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
>
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
though
> > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion" but
the
> > belief has never quite died away.
> >
> >
> > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a way
of
> > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control and
> > order to it.
> >
> > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
perspective.
> > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
could
> > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> >
> > Katy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=17
9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
=179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
ngdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> >
> > United kingdom florist
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
.sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------
------
> >
>
>
>
>
>






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--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> interesting note
> henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
licenced to practice under edward iv.
>
> while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
poisonous chemicals.
>
> i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
>
> also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
grandfather to nostradamus.
>
> roslyn


That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came from,
or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few Strangways
recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections better.

Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still something
very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists paid by
Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's father
Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have been
part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all this
esoteric stuff.

I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did make
some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
physicians were okay.

Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his alchemists?

Marie

>
> richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies on this.
>
> Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
brother
> when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
> gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
> prematurely.
>
> Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
> Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage in
> striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the slavish
> adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced
many
> less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest. And
> was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
>
> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
> Leek
> > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> course.
> > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> Burley. She
> > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> >
> > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> though
> > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion"
but
> the
> > > belief has never quite died away.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a
way
> of
> > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control
and
> > > order to it.
> > >
> > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> perspective.
> > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
> could
> > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > >
> > > Katy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
>
nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
>
+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=17
> 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
>
2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
>
dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
> =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
>
ngdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist
>
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > >
> > > United kingdom florist
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
>
ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
> g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
>
ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
>
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
>
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
>
t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
> 4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on
> the web.
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[email protected]?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
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> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
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> ------
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> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
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> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>

roslyn is my birthname. it's meaning is fair rose. yahoo wouldn't let me sign up as fair rose, so i went with a sort of medieval spelling of fayre rose/roze..:-)

it has nothing to do with grail bloodlines. i have a sibling named terrill and we descend from the de greys. how we gained our forenames is serindipitous, my parents weren't interested in history. i was named for a family friend, terrill was named for a charactor in a book my father was reading.

the culture of the war of the roses era involved a lot of the mantic arts, essentially medieval "new agers". from what i've been able to determine, it really wasn't until the king james version of the bible/puritan era that witchcraft/sorcery became really taboo.

the art/science of the occult went underground-ish mid 16thC, resurfacing in the mid 19thC, which is also about the time the spanish inquistion finally stopped. the inquistion started with the cathar heresy in the early 13th C.

katherine of aragon's parents isabel and ferdinand..sponsors of chrisopher columbus..really put the spanish inquistion into full power. the taliban of it's day.

henry de grey d. 1495 ancestry

henry m. iseult bardolf
richard m. lucy/lucia humez
john m. lucy de mohun
henry m. eleanor courtenay
richard m. joan fitzpayn
john m. alice de lisle
henry m. joan de cobham
richard m. elizabeth bassett
henry m. margery percy
henry m. catherine strangeways

catherine's strangeways ancestry i haven't researched/recorded to the same degree/depth.
however, she was the daughter of:
thomas strangeways m.katherine neville mX3
katherine is the daughter of ralph neville m. joan beaufort
ralph is the son of john m. maude percy
john is the son of ralph and alice de audley

katherine m. thomas strangeways other two husbands were john mowbray and john woodville.

ralph m. joan beaufort had another son, richard m. alice montaqu
1 Richard Neville 1400 - 1460
.. +Alice Montagu 1403 - 1462
......... 2 Joan Neville
............. +William FitzAlan 1420 -
.................... 3 Thomas FitzAlan 1450 - 1524
........................ +Margaret Woodville 1439 - 1490
......... 2 Richard Neville 1428 - 1471
............. +Anne Beauchamp 1426 -
.................... 3 Anne Neville 1456 - 1484/85
........................ +Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
.................... 3 Isabel Neville 1451 - 1476
........................ +George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
......... 2 Katherine Neville 1435 - 1504
............. +William Hastings - 1483
......... *2nd Husband of Katherine Neville:
............. +William Bonville 1442 -
.................... 3 Cecily Bonville
........................ +[1] Thomas de Grey 1460 -
.................... *2nd Husband of Cecily Bonville:
........................ +Henry Stafford 1479 -

i've read very little on edward iv/richard iii in books.
for the most part i've tried to avoid reading them so that i'm not picking up on other author's theories, per se.

my research is primarily conducted on line with trips to larger public or university library to do look ups/verification.

my goal is to get to the uk and ireland to tap into primary source documents that i have located in university and government archives. with luck, this will be in the summer of 2006.

this part of the reason, i'm so busy right now, and unable to participate here as fully as i would like to.

roslyn



mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> interesting note
> henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
licenced to practice under edward iv.
>
> while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
poisonous chemicals.
>
> i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
>
> also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
grandfather to nostradamus.
>
> roslyn


That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came from,
or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few Strangways
recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections better.

Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still something
very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists paid by
Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's father
Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have been
part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all this
esoteric stuff.

I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did make
some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
physicians were okay.

Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his alchemists?

Marie

>
> richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for the replies on this.
>
> Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
brother
> when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
> gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
> prematurely.
>
> Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
> Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage in
> striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the slavish
> adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced
many
> less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest. And
> was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
>
> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
> Leek
> > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> course.
> > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> Burley. She
> > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> >
> > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> though
> > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion"
but
> the
> > > belief has never quite died away.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a
way
> of
> > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control
and
> > > order to it.
> > >
> > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> perspective.
> > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
> could
> > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > >
> > > Katy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
>
nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
>
+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=17
> 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
>
2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
>
dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
> =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
>
ngdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist
>
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > >
> > > United kingdom florist
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
>
ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
> g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
>
ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
>
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
>
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
>
t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
> 4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--
> ------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on
> the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > > <mailto:-
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Maybe Yahoo would have let you sign up as 'pharaohs'.

fayre rose wrote:

> roslyn is my birthname. it's meaning is fair rose. yahoo wouldn't let
> me sign up as fair rose, so i went with a sort of medieval spelling of
> fayre rose/roze..:-)
>
> it has nothing to do with grail bloodlines. i have a sibling named
> terrill and we descend from the de greys. how we gained our forenames
> is serindipitous, my parents weren't interested in history. i was
> named for a family friend, terrill was named for a charactor in a book
> my father was reading.
>
> the culture of the war of the roses era involved a lot of the mantic
> arts, essentially medieval "new agers". from what i've been able to
> determine, it really wasn't until the king james version of the
> bible/puritan era that witchcraft/sorcery became really taboo.
>
> the art/science of the occult went underground-ish mid 16thC,
> resurfacing in the mid 19thC, which is also about the time the spanish
> inquistion finally stopped. the inquistion started with the cathar
> heresy in the early 13th C.
>
> katherine of aragon's parents isabel and ferdinand..sponsors of
> chrisopher columbus..really put the spanish inquistion into full
> power. the taliban of it's day.
>
> henry de grey d. 1495 ancestry
>
> henry m. iseult bardolf
> richard m. lucy/lucia humez
> john m. lucy de mohun
> henry m. eleanor courtenay
> richard m. joan fitzpayn
> john m. alice de lisle
> henry m. joan de cobham
> richard m. elizabeth bassett
> henry m. margery percy
> henry m. catherine strangeways
>
> catherine's strangeways ancestry i haven't researched/recorded to
> the same degree/depth.
> however, she was the daughter of:
> thomas strangeways m.katherine neville mX3
> katherine is the daughter of ralph neville m. joan beaufort
> ralph is the son of john m. maude percy
> john is the son of ralph and alice de audley
>
> katherine m. thomas strangeways other two husbands were john mowbray
> and john woodville.
>
> ralph m. joan beaufort had another son, richard m. alice montaqu
> 1 Richard Neville 1400 - 1460
> .. +Alice Montagu 1403 - 1462
> ......... 2 Joan Neville
> ............. +William FitzAlan 1420 -
> .................... 3 Thomas FitzAlan 1450 - 1524
> ........................ +Margaret Woodville 1439 - 1490
> ......... 2 Richard Neville 1428 - 1471
> ............. +Anne Beauchamp 1426 -
> .................... 3 Anne Neville 1456 - 1484/85
> ........................ +Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> .................... 3 Isabel Neville 1451 - 1476
> ........................ +George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> ......... 2 Katherine Neville 1435 - 1504
> ............. +William Hastings - 1483
> ......... *2nd Husband of Katherine Neville:
> ............. +William Bonville 1442 -
> .................... 3 Cecily Bonville
> ........................ +[1] Thomas de Grey 1460 -
> .................... *2nd Husband of Cecily Bonville:
> ........................ +Henry Stafford 1479 -
>
> i've read very little on edward iv/richard iii in books.
> for the most part i've tried to avoid reading them so that i'm not
> picking up on other author's theories, per se.
>
> my research is primarily conducted on line with trips to larger
> public or university library to do look ups/verification.
>
> my goal is to get to the uk and ireland to tap into primary source
> documents that i have located in university and government archives.
> with luck, this will be in the summer of 2006.
>
> this part of the reason, i'm so busy right now, and unable to
> participate here as fully as i would like to.
>
> roslyn
>
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > interesting note
> > henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> > this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
> licenced to practice under edward iv.
> >
> > while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
> philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
> poisonous chemicals.
> >
> > i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
> caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
> >
> > also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
> d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
> grandfather to nostradamus.
> >
> > roslyn
>
>
> That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came from,
> or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few Strangways
> recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections better.
>
> Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
> bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
> based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still something
> very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists paid by
> Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
> started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's father
> Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have been
> part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all this
> esoteric stuff.
>
> I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
> although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
> Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did make
> some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
> physicians were okay.
>
> Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his alchemists?
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies on this.
> >
> > Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> > Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
> brother
> > when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> > grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
> > gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> > Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
> > prematurely.
> >
> > Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
> > Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage in
> > striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the slavish
> > adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced
> many
> > less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest. And
> > was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
> >
> > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of a
> > > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where Sybil
> > Leek
> > > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> > course.
> > > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> > Burley. She
> > > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> > >
> > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> > though
> > > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion"
> but
> > the
> > > > belief has never quite died away.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a
> way
> > of
> > > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some control
> and
> > > > order to it.
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> > perspective.
> > > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA. I
> > could
> > > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > > >
> > > > Katy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> >
> nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
> >
> +florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=17
> > 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> >
> 2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
> >
> dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
> > =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> >
> ngdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist
> >
> &w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> > tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
> >
> ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
> > g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> >
> ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
> >
> lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> > .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> >
> ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
> >
> t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
> > 4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > ------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
> on
> > the web.
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> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > > <mailto:-
> [email protected]?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
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> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> > > >
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
>
> United kingdom florist
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Henry VI's problems

Maybe Henry did dabble in alchemy. He may've been dropped on his
head as a baby and it's usually presumed that he inherited a form of
schizophrenia from his grandfather Charles VI of France: the tainted
Valois blood, which may account for the aberrations of some of the
Tudors: Henry VIII was strange, but was this due to the things he had
in common with Edward IV: his grandfather?

What does impress me about Henry VI is that he founded
religious/educational institutions: Eton College and King's College
Cambridge. Was he a gentle religious academic type who bowed under
pressure from bullyboys, such as Somerset and York and in particular
his dominant wife: Margaret of Anjou? It may be that Henry was
weighed down by the failure in France: his father Henry V had
overreached himself and the wars of the roses and he simply had a
nervous breakdown. After all Henry, like Edward II and Richard II
stood to lose his life, which in fact he did in the Wakefield Tower
in 1471. It appears that someone sliced his head with an axe or
sword.

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> roslyn is my birthname. it's meaning is fair rose. yahoo wouldn't
let me sign up as fair rose, so i went with a sort of medieval
spelling of fayre rose/roze..:-)
>
> it has nothing to do with grail bloodlines. i have a sibling
named terrill and we descend from the de greys. how we gained our
forenames is serindipitous, my parents weren't interested in history.
i was named for a family friend, terrill was named for a charactor in
a book my father was reading.
>
> the culture of the war of the roses era involved a lot of the
mantic arts, essentially medieval "new agers". from what i've been
able to determine, it really wasn't until the king james version of
the bible/puritan era that witchcraft/sorcery became really taboo.
>
> the art/science of the occult went underground-ish mid 16thC,
resurfacing in the mid 19thC, which is also about the time the
spanish inquistion finally stopped. the inquistion started with the
cathar heresy in the early 13th C.
>
> katherine of aragon's parents isabel and ferdinand..sponsors of
chrisopher columbus..really put the spanish inquistion into full
power. the taliban of it's day.
>
> henry de grey d. 1495 ancestry
>
> henry m. iseult bardolf
> richard m. lucy/lucia humez
> john m. lucy de mohun
> henry m. eleanor courtenay
> richard m. joan fitzpayn
> john m. alice de lisle
> henry m. joan de cobham
> richard m. elizabeth bassett
> henry m. margery percy
> henry m. catherine strangeways
>
> catherine's strangeways ancestry i haven't researched/recorded to
the same degree/depth.
> however, she was the daughter of:
> thomas strangeways m.katherine neville mX3
> katherine is the daughter of ralph neville m. joan beaufort
> ralph is the son of john m. maude percy
> john is the son of ralph and alice de audley
>
> katherine m. thomas strangeways other two husbands were john
mowbray and john woodville.
>
> ralph m. joan beaufort had another son, richard m. alice montaqu
> 1 Richard Neville 1400 - 1460
> .. +Alice Montagu 1403 - 1462
> ......... 2 Joan Neville
> ............. +William FitzAlan 1420 -
> .................... 3 Thomas FitzAlan 1450 - 1524
> ........................ +Margaret Woodville 1439 - 1490
> ......... 2 Richard Neville 1428 - 1471
> ............. +Anne Beauchamp 1426 -
> .................... 3 Anne Neville 1456 - 1484/85
> ........................ +Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> .................... 3 Isabel Neville 1451 - 1476
> ........................ +George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> ......... 2 Katherine Neville 1435 - 1504
> ............. +William Hastings - 1483
> ......... *2nd Husband of Katherine Neville:
> ............. +William Bonville 1442 -
> .................... 3 Cecily Bonville
> ........................ +[1] Thomas de Grey 1460 -
> .................... *2nd Husband of Cecily Bonville:
> ........................ +Henry Stafford 1479 -
>
> i've read very little on edward iv/richard iii in books.
> for the most part i've tried to avoid reading them so that i'm
not picking up on other author's theories, per se.
>
> my research is primarily conducted on line with trips to larger
public or university library to do look ups/verification.
>
> my goal is to get to the uk and ireland to tap into primary
source documents that i have located in university and government
archives. with luck, this will be in the summer of 2006.
>
> this part of the reason, i'm so busy right now, and unable to
participate here as fully as i would like to.
>
> roslyn
>
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > interesting note
> > henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> > this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
> licenced to practice under edward iv.
> >
> > while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
> philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
> poisonous chemicals.
> >
> > i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
> caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
> >
> > also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
> d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
> grandfather to nostradamus.
> >
> > roslyn
>
>
> That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came from,
> or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few
Strangways
> recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections
better.
>
> Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
> bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
> based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still
something
> very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists paid
by
> Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
> started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's father
> Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have been
> part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all
this
> esoteric stuff.
>
> I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
> although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
> Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did make
> some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
> physicians were okay.
>
> Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his alchemists?
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies on this.
> >
> > Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> > Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
> brother
> > when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> > grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
> > gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> > Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
> > prematurely.
> >
> > Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
> > Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage
in
> > striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the
slavish
> > adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced
> many
> > less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest.
And
> > was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
> >
> > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of
a
> > > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where
Sybil
> > Leek
> > > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> > course.
> > > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> > Burley. She
> > > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> > >
> > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> > though
> > > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion"
> but
> > the
> > > > belief has never quite died away.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a
> way
> > of
> > > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some
control
> and
> > > > order to it.
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> > perspective.
> > > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA.
I
> > could
> > > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > > >
> > > > Katy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
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> >
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> >
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> > 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
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> >
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2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
> >
>
dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
> > =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
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> >
>
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> > tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
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> >
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> > g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
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> >
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> >
>
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> > .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> >
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> >
>
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henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness, however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not uncommon.

hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or the mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.

it's only been the last few decades that we've given serious thought to public health safety issues due to chemicals in our environment.

and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all that...more sugar.

diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw in loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.

some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for the tudors are:

sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
miscarriages, and high infant mortality.

plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with violent outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar fluctuations.

additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.

roslyn

richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:
Henry VI's problems

Maybe Henry did dabble in alchemy. He may've been dropped on his
head as a baby and it's usually presumed that he inherited a form of
schizophrenia from his grandfather Charles VI of France: the tainted
Valois blood, which may account for the aberrations of some of the
Tudors: Henry VIII was strange, but was this due to the things he had
in common with Edward IV: his grandfather?

What does impress me about Henry VI is that he founded
religious/educational institutions: Eton College and King's College
Cambridge. Was he a gentle religious academic type who bowed under
pressure from bullyboys, such as Somerset and York and in particular
his dominant wife: Margaret of Anjou? It may be that Henry was
weighed down by the failure in France: his father Henry V had
overreached himself and the wars of the roses and he simply had a
nervous breakdown. After all Henry, like Edward II and Richard II
stood to lose his life, which in fact he did in the Wakefield Tower
in 1471. It appears that someone sliced his head with an axe or
sword.

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> roslyn is my birthname. it's meaning is fair rose. yahoo wouldn't
let me sign up as fair rose, so i went with a sort of medieval
spelling of fayre rose/roze..:-)
>
> it has nothing to do with grail bloodlines. i have a sibling
named terrill and we descend from the de greys. how we gained our
forenames is serindipitous, my parents weren't interested in history.
i was named for a family friend, terrill was named for a charactor in
a book my father was reading.
>
> the culture of the war of the roses era involved a lot of the
mantic arts, essentially medieval "new agers". from what i've been
able to determine, it really wasn't until the king james version of
the bible/puritan era that witchcraft/sorcery became really taboo.
>
> the art/science of the occult went underground-ish mid 16thC,
resurfacing in the mid 19thC, which is also about the time the
spanish inquistion finally stopped. the inquistion started with the
cathar heresy in the early 13th C.
>
> katherine of aragon's parents isabel and ferdinand..sponsors of
chrisopher columbus..really put the spanish inquistion into full
power. the taliban of it's day.
>
> henry de grey d. 1495 ancestry
>
> henry m. iseult bardolf
> richard m. lucy/lucia humez
> john m. lucy de mohun
> henry m. eleanor courtenay
> richard m. joan fitzpayn
> john m. alice de lisle
> henry m. joan de cobham
> richard m. elizabeth bassett
> henry m. margery percy
> henry m. catherine strangeways
>
> catherine's strangeways ancestry i haven't researched/recorded to
the same degree/depth.
> however, she was the daughter of:
> thomas strangeways m.katherine neville mX3
> katherine is the daughter of ralph neville m. joan beaufort
> ralph is the son of john m. maude percy
> john is the son of ralph and alice de audley
>
> katherine m. thomas strangeways other two husbands were john
mowbray and john woodville.
>
> ralph m. joan beaufort had another son, richard m. alice montaqu
> 1 Richard Neville 1400 - 1460
> .. +Alice Montagu 1403 - 1462
> ......... 2 Joan Neville
> ............. +William FitzAlan 1420 -
> .................... 3 Thomas FitzAlan 1450 - 1524
> ........................ +Margaret Woodville 1439 - 1490
> ......... 2 Richard Neville 1428 - 1471
> ............. +Anne Beauchamp 1426 -
> .................... 3 Anne Neville 1456 - 1484/85
> ........................ +Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> .................... 3 Isabel Neville 1451 - 1476
> ........................ +George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> ......... 2 Katherine Neville 1435 - 1504
> ............. +William Hastings - 1483
> ......... *2nd Husband of Katherine Neville:
> ............. +William Bonville 1442 -
> .................... 3 Cecily Bonville
> ........................ +[1] Thomas de Grey 1460 -
> .................... *2nd Husband of Cecily Bonville:
> ........................ +Henry Stafford 1479 -
>
> i've read very little on edward iv/richard iii in books.
> for the most part i've tried to avoid reading them so that i'm
not picking up on other author's theories, per se.
>
> my research is primarily conducted on line with trips to larger
public or university library to do look ups/verification.
>
> my goal is to get to the uk and ireland to tap into primary
source documents that i have located in university and government
archives. with luck, this will be in the summer of 2006.
>
> this part of the reason, i'm so busy right now, and unable to
participate here as fully as i would like to.
>
> roslyn
>
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > interesting note
> > henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> > this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
> licenced to practice under edward iv.
> >
> > while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
> philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
> poisonous chemicals.
> >
> > i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
> caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
> >
> > also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
> d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
> grandfather to nostradamus.
> >
> > roslyn
>
>
> That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came from,
> or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few
Strangways
> recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections
better.
>
> Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
> bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
> based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still
something
> very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists paid
by
> Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
> started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's father
> Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have been
> part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all
this
> esoteric stuff.
>
> I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
> although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
> Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did make
> some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
> physicians were okay.
>
> Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his alchemists?
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> > Thanks for the replies on this.
> >
> > Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> > Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
> brother
> > when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> > grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine and
> > gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> > Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who died
> > prematurely.
> >
> > Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville dominated
> > Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage
in
> > striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the
slavish
> > adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has produced
> many
> > less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest.
And
> > was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
> >
> > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping of
a
> > > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where
Sybil
> > Leek
> > > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> > course.
> > > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> > Burley. She
> > > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> > >
> > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > >
> > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few years,
> > though
> > > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called Wiccan "religion"
> but
> > the
> > > > belief has never quite died away.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was a
> way
> > of
> > > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some
control
> and
> > > > order to it.
> > > >
> > > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> > perspective.
> > > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with DNA.
I
> > could
> > > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > > >
> > > > Katy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> >
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> >
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> > 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
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> >
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> >
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> > =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
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> >
>
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> >
>
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> > tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> >
>
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> >
>
ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
> > g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> >
>
ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
> >
>
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> > .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> >
>
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
> >
>
t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
> > 4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> > > >
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--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>

>
> and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all
that...more sugar.


It's generally thought that Henry IV had Richard II starved to death
in Berkeley Castle, but the official line is that he willfully
starved himself despite being offered food. I have wondered if it
were possible that Richard developed adult-onset (Type II) diabetes,
which can cause a fatal wasting despite what should be an adequate
diet. The childlessness of his marriage to Anne could have been
tied to diabetic impotence.

Katy

Richard II died at Pontefract. It was Edward II who was murdered at Berkeley (unless you believe Paul Doherty et ak).



I am a little wary of the Richard II as diabetic suggestion, if only because he was married to Anne of Bohemia for over 10 years, from when she was 17-18 and he 16-17 - i.e. both physically mature enough to produce issue. The effects of untreated diabetes are progressive; if their childlessness resulted from impotence caused by diabetes, Richard would have to have been diabetic for 15 or more years before his deposition - would the diabetes not have killed him in that time?

Ann





It's generally thought that Henry IV had Richard II starved to death
in Berkeley Castle, but the official line is that he willfully
starved himself despite being offered food. I have wondered if it
were possible that Richard developed adult-onset (Type II) diabetes,
which can cause a fatal wasting despite what should be an adequate
diet. The childlessness of his marriage to Anne could have been
tied to diabetic impotence.

Katy






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Chemicals and diabetes are both real possibilities for causing
problems for Henry VI and the Tudors.

I do think that Henry VI was unfortunate in the situation he
inherited. Henry V bit off more than he could chew in taking on
France, but died early. It was left for his son to try to pick up
the pieces, which he was bound to fail to do. Henry VI may've been a
sensitive academic interested in religion and education, but such
types seldom if ever are suited to military exploits.

Henry VI was also unfortunate in some of the people who surrounded
him. `Loyalty binds me' was a Richard III motto, but who was loyal
to Henry?

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
uncommon.
>
> hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or the
mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
>
> it's only been the last few decades that we've given serious
thought to public health safety issues due to chemicals in our
environment.
>
> and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all that...more
sugar.
>
> diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw in
loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
>
> some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for the
tudors are:
>
> sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
>
> plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with violent
outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
fluctuations.
>
> additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores
that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.
>
> roslyn
>
> richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> Henry VI's problems
>
> Maybe Henry did dabble in alchemy. He may've been dropped on his
> head as a baby and it's usually presumed that he inherited a form
of
> schizophrenia from his grandfather Charles VI of France: the
tainted
> Valois blood, which may account for the aberrations of some of the
> Tudors: Henry VIII was strange, but was this due to the things he
had
> in common with Edward IV: his grandfather?
>
> What does impress me about Henry VI is that he founded
> religious/educational institutions: Eton College and King's College
> Cambridge. Was he a gentle religious academic type who bowed under
> pressure from bullyboys, such as Somerset and York and in
particular
> his dominant wife: Margaret of Anjou? It may be that Henry was
> weighed down by the failure in France: his father Henry V had
> overreached himself and the wars of the roses and he simply had a
> nervous breakdown. After all Henry, like Edward II and Richard II
> stood to lose his life, which in fact he did in the Wakefield Tower
> in 1471. It appears that someone sliced his head with an axe or
> sword.
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > roslyn is my birthname. it's meaning is fair rose. yahoo wouldn't
> let me sign up as fair rose, so i went with a sort of medieval
> spelling of fayre rose/roze..:-)
> >
> > it has nothing to do with grail bloodlines. i have a sibling
> named terrill and we descend from the de greys. how we gained our
> forenames is serindipitous, my parents weren't interested in
history.
> i was named for a family friend, terrill was named for a charactor
in
> a book my father was reading.
> >
> > the culture of the war of the roses era involved a lot of the
> mantic arts, essentially medieval "new agers". from what i've been
> able to determine, it really wasn't until the king james version of
> the bible/puritan era that witchcraft/sorcery became really taboo.
> >
> > the art/science of the occult went underground-ish mid 16thC,
> resurfacing in the mid 19thC, which is also about the time the
> spanish inquistion finally stopped. the inquistion started with the
> cathar heresy in the early 13th C.
> >
> > katherine of aragon's parents isabel and ferdinand..sponsors of
> chrisopher columbus..really put the spanish inquistion into full
> power. the taliban of it's day.
> >
> > henry de grey d. 1495 ancestry
> >
> > henry m. iseult bardolf
> > richard m. lucy/lucia humez
> > john m. lucy de mohun
> > henry m. eleanor courtenay
> > richard m. joan fitzpayn
> > john m. alice de lisle
> > henry m. joan de cobham
> > richard m. elizabeth bassett
> > henry m. margery percy
> > henry m. catherine strangeways
> >
> > catherine's strangeways ancestry i haven't researched/recorded
to
> the same degree/depth.
> > however, she was the daughter of:
> > thomas strangeways m.katherine neville mX3
> > katherine is the daughter of ralph neville m. joan beaufort
> > ralph is the son of john m. maude percy
> > john is the son of ralph and alice de audley
> >
> > katherine m. thomas strangeways other two husbands were john
> mowbray and john woodville.
> >
> > ralph m. joan beaufort had another son, richard m. alice montaqu
> > 1 Richard Neville 1400 - 1460
> > .. +Alice Montagu 1403 - 1462
> > ......... 2 Joan Neville
> > ............. +William FitzAlan 1420 -
> > .................... 3 Thomas FitzAlan 1450 - 1524
> > ........................ +Margaret Woodville 1439 - 1490
> > ......... 2 Richard Neville 1428 - 1471
> > ............. +Anne Beauchamp 1426 -
> > .................... 3 Anne Neville 1456 - 1484/85
> > ........................ +Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > .................... 3 Isabel Neville 1451 - 1476
> > ........................ +George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > ......... 2 Katherine Neville 1435 - 1504
> > ............. +William Hastings - 1483
> > ......... *2nd Husband of Katherine Neville:
> > ............. +William Bonville 1442 -
> > .................... 3 Cecily Bonville
> > ........................ +[1] Thomas de Grey 1460 -
> > .................... *2nd Husband of Cecily Bonville:
> > ........................ +Henry Stafford 1479 -
> >
> > i've read very little on edward iv/richard iii in books.
> > for the most part i've tried to avoid reading them so that i'm
> not picking up on other author's theories, per se.
> >
> > my research is primarily conducted on line with trips to larger
> public or university library to do look ups/verification.
> >
> > my goal is to get to the uk and ireland to tap into primary
> source documents that i have located in university and government
> archives. with luck, this will be in the summer of 2006.
> >
> > this part of the reason, i'm so busy right now, and unable to
> participate here as fully as i would like to.
> >
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> >
> > mariewalsh2003 <marie@r...> wrote:
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > interesting note
> > > henry de grey b. 1435 d. 1495 m. catherine strangeways.
> > > this henry was an alchemist to king henry vi and then was
> > licenced to practice under edward iv.
> > >
> > > while working for henry vi, he was supposed to be finding the
> > philosopher's stone. this involved the use of mercury and other
> > poisonous chemicals.
> > >
> > > i've pondered if henry vi's catatonic state might have been
> > caused by ingesting some of henry de grey's concoctions.
> > >
> > > also margaret of anjou, henry vi's queen, her father, rene
> > d'anjou's physician/alchemist was Jean de Saint-Remy, maternal
> > grandfather to nostradamus.
> > >
> > > roslyn
> >
> >
> > That's very interesting. Do you know where Henry de Grey came
from,
> > or Catherine Strangways' parentage? I've come across a few
> Strangways
> > recently, and I'd like to understand their family connections
> better.
> >
> > Do I detect from your name that you're an expert on the Grail
> > bloodline stuff? Some of the claims that have been made have been
> > based on misunderstandings, sure, but I think there's still
> something
> > very interesting there. Everything I've read about alchemists
paid
> by
> > Henry VI dates from after his marriage to Margaret of Anjou. He
> > started using them very soon afterwards, in fact. Margaret's
father
> > Rene, of course, is said by the authors of these books to have
been
> > part of the 'bloodline' and to have been heavily involved in all
> this
> > esoteric stuff.
> >
> > I also have my suspicions about Henry's illness and his doctors,
> > although to be fair to them each time he completely collapsed and
> > Margaret secreted him away into the care of his doctors he did
make
> > some sort of recovery after a few months. Perhaps his regular
> > physicians were okay.
> >
> > Have you read Jonathan Hughes' book on Edward IV and his
alchemists?
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > >
> > > richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
> > > Thanks for the replies on this.
> > >
> > > Maybe Richard III was right that something evil had happened to
> > > Edward IV. Edward's life: the brutal death of his father and
> > brother
> > > when he was 18, his exile in 1469, bloody return in 1471, his
> > > grasping wife and her family, his retreat to mistresses, wine
and
> > > gluttony, his leaving government to able ministers, including
> > > Richard, the problem of Clarence was too much for Edward who
died
> > > prematurely.
> > >
> > > Croyland makes clear that very few fancied a Woodville
dominated
> > > Edward V, so Richard had to get rid of them. He showed courage
> in
> > > striking a blow for merit over nepotism, corruption and the
> slavish
> > > adherence to a system based on primogeniture, which has
produced
> > many
> > > less than able leaders of England, Henry VI being the latest.
> And
> > > was Edward IV by himself really up to the job?
> > >
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Many years ago when I was in university, I attended a taping
of
> a
> > > > Canadian Broadcasting Corporation television program where
> Sybil
> > > Leek
> > > > was interviewed by a bunch of first-year students. She won of
> > > course.
> > > > She was a charismatic character billed as the White Witch of
> > > Burley. She
> > > > got my attention. Interesting clothing. Very 'sixties'.
> > > >
> > > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Witchcraft has made quite a comeback in the last few
years,
> > > though
> > > > > now it's all "white witches" and so-called
Wiccan "religion"
> > but
> > > the
> > > > > belief has never quite died away.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think, also, that attributing things to "witchcraft" was
a
> > way
> > > of
> > > > > trying to explain the inexplicable and thus exert some
> control
> > and
> > > > > order to it.
> > > > >
> > > > > Witchcraft, miracles, quantum physics....only a matter of
> > > perspective.
> > > > > I can't see electricity but I believe in it. Same with
DNA.
> I
> > > could
> > > > > just as easily call them both witchcraft.
> > > > >
> > > > > Katy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > >
> >
>
nited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
> > >
> >
>
+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=17
> > > 9&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > >
> >
>
2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+king
> > >
> >
>
dom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s
> > > =179&.sig=8cAgnmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > >
> >
>
ngdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist
> > >
> >
>
&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=L
> > > tswW8ZiUV1kjXQVm82g5Q>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> > >
> >
>
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> > >
> >
>
ist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.si
> > > g=fGW6B8GVBZ8wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > >
> >
>
ted+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+f
> > >
> >
>
lorist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&
> > > .sig=1nHG04-Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> >
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > >
> >
>
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+floris
> > >
> >
>
t&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=
> > > 4O6cijxeGAbyWJhxvVxdvw>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > >
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> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom florist United
kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
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>

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
uncommon.

Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is only
a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it. We
are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing the
disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is now
medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene which
causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some poisons
used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I think
one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently perfectly
normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a few
years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish chap
doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him is
that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state in a
very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his signature
to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the various
cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would seem,
because he liked him.
His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
period, before his mind started to betray him.
He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s, and
the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but I
can't remember exact dates.

>
> hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or the
mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.

Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain alarming
levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this which
triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
necessarily present).

.
>
> and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all that...more
sugar.
>
> diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw in
loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
>
> some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for the
tudors are:
>
> sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
>
> plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with violent
outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
fluctuations.
>
> additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores
that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.

Do you know when he started using glasses? 47, his age at death, is
about the age most people start needing reading glasses, but to have
had several pairs by that age does indeed suggest something else.
There are several possible conditions, I suppose, such as glaucoma,
but diabetes would be the prime suspect.
Diabetes is a very plausible explanation for the leg ulcer that
wouldn't heal. I've often puzzled over that. If it were simply
infected, he'd surely have got septicaemia or gangrene pretty soon.

The other things could be due to diabetes, but there are so many
other possible explanations for these things that on their own they
wouldn't have convinced me. It really does interest me, though, as an
explanation for the leg ulcer.

Marie

Yes, you gave an interesting and perceptive account: that innate
schizophrenia was triggered by chemicals.

It may be that he became weak, unworldly and bookish in response to
his illness.

It may be that rubberstamping warrants for the execution of traitors
was a case of Henry having his strings pulled by his strong willed
wife or favourites such as Somerset. Certainly the main friction
seems to have been generated between Somerset and York suggesting
they had strong personalities and Margaret of Anjou (maybe a
prototype of Margaret Thatcher) led the Lancastrian armies.

Certainly Henry became very weak if he wasn't from birth: he lamely
questioned whether Edward, his reputed son, was his.

And yet if viewed as an academic religious type caught up in a
situation of England losing France and warring noblemen at home,
maybe he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even with
episodes of schizophrenia, he may have lived a fairly normal life if
he's been in a less stressful situation: stress incidentally can
trigger schizophrenia.

Henry wasn't despised after all. There was a movement to get him
canonized and Richard III saw fit to rebury Henry's remains in
Windsor out of respect and to heal old wounds.

I certainly wouldn't rule out diabetes as a problem for Henry VIII,
but syphilis has also been suggested: hence the fact that his
children were sterile. Elizabeth I even stated: `We are of barren
stock.' Let's face it she needed a child to counter the threat from
her Catholic cousin Mary Queen of Scots.











--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> uncommon.
>
> Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
only
> a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it.
We
> are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
the
> disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
now
> medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
which
> causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
> and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some
poisons
> used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I think
> one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
> explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently perfectly
> normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a few
> years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
> The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish
chap
> doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him
is
> that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state in
a
> very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his
signature
> to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the various
> cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would
seem,
> because he liked him.
> His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
> period, before his mind started to betray him.
> He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s,
and
> the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but I
> can't remember exact dates.
>
> >
> > hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or
the
> mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
> access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
>
> Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain
alarming
> levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
> the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this which
> triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
> necessarily present).
>
> .
> >
> > and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
> diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
> limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all
that...more
> sugar.
> >
> > diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw
in
> loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
> >
> > some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for
the
> tudors are:
> >
> > sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> > miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
> >
> > plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with
violent
> outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
> fluctuations.
> >
> > additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores
> that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
> failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.
>
> Do you know when he started using glasses? 47, his age at death, is
> about the age most people start needing reading glasses, but to
have
> had several pairs by that age does indeed suggest something else.
> There are several possible conditions, I suppose, such as glaucoma,
> but diabetes would be the prime suspect.
> Diabetes is a very plausible explanation for the leg ulcer that
> wouldn't heal. I've often puzzled over that. If it were simply
> infected, he'd surely have got septicaemia or gangrene pretty soon.
>
> The other things could be due to diabetes, but there are so many
> other possible explanations for these things that on their own they
> wouldn't have convinced me. It really does interest me, though, as
an
> explanation for the leg ulcer.
>
> Marie
>

it appears he may have been wearing them as early as 1511. i don't read/speak german, but one of hal's helmets had rivet glasses in 1511.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=13386171&dopt=Abstract

in trying to determine when he was wearing them, i was surprised to find that eyeglasses were in use in the 13thC by europeans, and there are records of the arabs using them in the 10thC.

i'm legally blind, and have worn glasses since i was 6 months old. so i found this bit of history fascinating.

no i don't know how my parents kept the glasses on me, except i know i can not see without them, (everything is just blurred colours) so i may have realised the glasses gave me vision, and just left them alone after the first few tries at getting the things off my face. even with dirty lenses, i can still see better with glasses than without.

my mother's favourite command was "go clean your glasses." i saw myself without glasses for the first time in my early 30's when i got contact lens for vanity reasons. a waste of money really so much bother and expense..and glasses are much easier to find/feel.

roslyn

mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
snip for brevity
> and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all that...more
sugar.
>
> diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw in
loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
>
> some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for the
tudors are:
>
> sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
>
> plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with violent
outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
fluctuations.
>
> additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores
that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.

Do you know when he started using glasses? 47, his age at death, is
about the age most people start needing reading glasses, but to have
had several pairs by that age does indeed suggest something else.
There are several possible conditions, I suppose, such as glaucoma,
but diabetes would be the prime suspect.
Diabetes is a very plausible explanation for the leg ulcer that
wouldn't heal. I've often puzzled over that. If it were simply
infected, he'd surely have got septicaemia or gangrene pretty soon.

The other things could be due to diabetes, but there are so many
other possible explanations for these things that on their own they
wouldn't have convinced me. It really does interest me, though, as an
explanation for the leg ulcer.

Marie

I have heard an alternative suggestion for the problem faced by Henry
VIII: Cushing's Syndrome. The National Institute of Digestive & Diabetes
& Kinda Diseases (of NIH) gives the following information on Cushing's
Syndrome:

*Symptoms vary, but most people have upper body obesity, rounded
face, increased fat around the neck, and thinning arms and legs.
Children tend to be obese with slowed growth rates.*

*Other symptoms appear in the skin, which becomes fragile and thin.
It bruises easily and heals poorly. Purplish pink stretch marks may
appear on the abdomen, thighs, buttocks, arms and breasts. The bones
are weakened, and routine activities such as bending, lifting or
rising from a chair may lead to backaches, rib and spinal column
fractures.*

*Most people have severe fatigue, weak muscles, high blood pressure
and high blood sugar. Irritability, anxiety and depression are common.*

*Women usually have excess hair growth on their faces, necks,
chests, abdomens, and thighs. Their menstrual periods may become
irregular or stop. Men have decreased fertility with diminished or
absent desire for sex.*





richardrichardrobert wrote:

>
> Yes, you gave an interesting and perceptive account: that innate
> schizophrenia was triggered by chemicals.
>
> It may be that he became weak, unworldly and bookish in response to
> his illness.
>
> It may be that rubberstamping warrants for the execution of traitors
> was a case of Henry having his strings pulled by his strong willed
> wife or favourites such as Somerset. Certainly the main friction
> seems to have been generated between Somerset and York suggesting
> they had strong personalities and Margaret of Anjou (maybe a
> prototype of Margaret Thatcher) led the Lancastrian armies.
>
> Certainly Henry became very weak if he wasn't from birth: he lamely
> questioned whether Edward, his reputed son, was his.
>
> And yet if viewed as an academic religious type caught up in a
> situation of England losing France and warring noblemen at home,
> maybe he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even with
> episodes of schizophrenia, he may have lived a fairly normal life if
> he's been in a less stressful situation: stress incidentally can
> trigger schizophrenia.
>
> Henry wasn't despised after all. There was a movement to get him
> canonized and Richard III saw fit to rebury Henry's remains in
> Windsor out of respect and to heal old wounds.
>
> I certainly wouldn't rule out diabetes as a problem for Henry VIII,
> but syphilis has also been suggested: hence the fact that his
> children were sterile. Elizabeth I even stated: `We are of barren
> stock.' Let's face it she needed a child to counter the threat from
> her Catholic cousin Mary Queen of Scots.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> > however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> > aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> > uncommon.
> >
> > Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
> only
> > a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it.
> We
> > are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
> the
> > disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> > developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
> now
> > medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
> which
> > causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
> > and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> > rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some
> poisons
> > used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I think
> > one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
> > explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently perfectly
> > normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a few
> > years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
> > The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish
> chap
> > doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him
> is
> > that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state in
> a
> > very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his
> signature
> > to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the various
> > cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would
> seem,
> > because he liked him.
> > His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
> > period, before his mind started to betray him.
> > He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s,
> and
> > the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but I
> > can't remember exact dates.
> >
> > >
> > > hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or
> the
> > mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
> > access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
> >
> > Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain
> alarming
> > levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
> > the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this which
> > triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
> > necessarily present).
> >
> > .
> > >
> > > and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
> > diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
> > limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all
> that...more
> > sugar.
> > >
> > > diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw
> in
> > loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
> > >
> > > some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for
> the
> > tudors are:
> > >
> > > sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> > > miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
> > >
> > > plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with
> violent
> > outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
> > fluctuations.
> > >
> > > additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated sores
> > that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
> > failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.
> >
> > Do you know when he started using glasses? 47, his age at death, is
> > about the age most people start needing reading glasses, but to
> have
> > had several pairs by that age does indeed suggest something else.
> > There are several possible conditions, I suppose, such as glaucoma,
> > but diabetes would be the prime suspect.
> > Diabetes is a very plausible explanation for the leg ulcer that
> > wouldn't heal. I've often puzzled over that. If it were simply
> > infected, he'd surely have got septicaemia or gangrene pretty soon.
> >
> > The other things could be due to diabetes, but there are so many
> > other possible explanations for these things that on their own they
> > wouldn't have convinced me. It really does interest me, though, as
> an
> > explanation for the leg ulcer.
> >
> > Marie
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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elizabeth i needed a husband. there are "stories" that she did bear children. they would have been illegitimate and ergo unable to inherit the throne.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/legends/elizab_babe01.html

e1 did not leave a will, and it was high treason to discuss succession with her.

here is a url regarding tudor succession problems.
http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/vallieres.htm

this url has some interesting info regarding her death. scroll to the queen sickeneth
http://e3.uci.edu/~papyri/camden/1603e.html
BUT, you have to access it via the wayback machine at
http://www.archive.org

roslyn

richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:

snip for brevity

I certainly wouldn't rule out diabetes as a problem for Henry VIII,
but syphilis has also been suggested: hence the fact that his
children were sterile. Elizabeth I even stated: `We are of barren
stock.' Let's face it she needed a child to counter the threat from
her Catholic cousin Mary Queen of Scots.











--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> uncommon.
>
> Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
only
> a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it.
We
> are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
the
> disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
now
> medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
which
> causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
> and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some
poisons
> used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I think
> one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
> explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently perfectly
> normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a few
> years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
> The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish
chap
> doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him
is
> that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state in
a
> very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his
signature
> to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the various
> cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would
seem,
> because he liked him.
> His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
> period, before his mind started to betray him.
> He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s,
and
> the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but I
> can't remember exact dates.
>
> >
> > hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or
the
> mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
> access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
>
> Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain
alarming
> levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
> the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this which
> triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
> necessarily present).
>

I have read the middle one but know "Lord Henry Hasting" (sic) and the "Puritan" 3rd Earl of Huntingdon to be one and the same. Furthermore, during the 1562 smallpox, I know him to have been one of Parliament's two preferred candidates and, thanks to MKJ and Claire Cross, Lord President of the Council of the North and rightful Yorkist heir through Clarence, Margaret of Salisbury, Montagu and Catherine Pole.
----- Original Message -----
From: fayre rose
To:
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Witchcraft in Titulus Regius


elizabeth i needed a husband. there are "stories" that she did bear children. they would have been illegitimate and ergo unable to inherit the throne.

http://www.berkshirehistory.com/legends/elizab_babe01.html

e1 did not leave a will, and it was high treason to discuss succession with her.

here is a url regarding tudor succession problems.
http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/vallieres.htm

this url has some interesting info regarding her death. scroll to the queen sickeneth
http://e3.uci.edu/~papyri/camden/1603e.html
BUT, you have to access it via the wayback machine at
http://www.archive.org

roslyn

richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:

snip for brevity

I certainly wouldn't rule out diabetes as a problem for Henry VIII,
but syphilis has also been suggested: hence the fact that his
children were sterile. Elizabeth I even stated: `We are of barren
stock.' Let's face it she needed a child to counter the threat from
her Catholic cousin Mary Queen of Scots.











--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> uncommon.
>
> Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
only
> a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it.
We
> are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
the
> disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
now
> medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
which
> causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
> and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some
poisons
> used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I think
> one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
> explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently perfectly
> normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a few
> years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
> The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish
chap
> doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him
is
> that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state in
a
> very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his
signature
> to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the various
> cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would
seem,
> because he liked him.
> His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
> period, before his mind started to betray him.
> He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s,
and
> the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but I
> can't remember exact dates.
>
> >
> > hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or
the
> mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able to
> access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
>
> Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain
alarming
> levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
> the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this which
> triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
> necessarily present).
>






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--- In , "richardrichardrobert"
<richardrichardrobert@y...> wrote:
>
>
> Yes, you gave an interesting and perceptive account: that innate
> schizophrenia was triggered by chemicals.
>
> It may be that he became weak, unworldly and bookish in response to
> his illness.
>
> It may be that rubberstamping warrants for the execution of
traitors
> was a case of Henry having his strings pulled by his strong willed
> wife or favourites such as Somerset. Certainly the main friction
> seems to have been generated between Somerset and York suggesting
> they had strong personalities and Margaret of Anjou (maybe a
> prototype of Margaret Thatcher) led the Lancastrian armies.

Firstly to Roslyn: Did I thank you for that Grey & Strangways
genealogy?> I can't remember. If not, then thank you now. That's very
kind of you.

On the subject of Henry VI, he certainy became a weak and reclusive
individual, but schizophrenia does that. His guardians don't seem to
have found him at all like that in his mid teens, however, when they
bowed out, declaring themselves unable to control this wilful and
gifted youth.

I have personally watched someone quite close to me change from an
outgoing, mouthy, gifted, beautiful young man into a frightened
recluse locking himself away in a room (preferably a hospital one).
Changes in surroundings, or new faces, are very hard to deal with
when one has no way of telling what is real and what isn't. It's a
very tragic disease, and if Henry had it then one can only feel
extremely sorry for him. Ironically, provided he was well cared for,
his years as Edward's prisoner in the Tower may have been far more to
his liking than the few years before, being shunted from battlefield
to battlefield, and to one strange "safe house" after another.

Blacman's description of Henry's distress when people would come in
to disturb him with business sounds very much like someone with this
illness. If Henry was schizophrenic, then the stress would certainly
have aggravated it. But he seems to have been starting to go even
when things were still okay, with the new truce with France still
offering hope of a final peace settlement.
It does seem that the battle of the "strong personalities" arose
from Henry's inability to govern, and not the other way round.
Margaret of Anjou made no attempt to involve herself politically
until late 1453, when her husband's total mental collapse and the
birth of her son put her on a war footing.
Similarly with York. I don't see him as an over-strong personality as
such. Again, he was responding to what he saw as an intolerable
situation, and for years kept pulling back from the brink. Until 1453
York and Margaret of Anjou even seem to have got on well with each
other.
I may be biased, but I tend to agree with some recent writers who see
a lot of the problem as Henry's own prediliction for Somerset, who
was a self-serving disaster.

Marie



>
> Certainly Henry became very weak if he wasn't from birth: he lamely
> questioned whether Edward, his reputed son, was his.
>
> And yet if viewed as an academic religious type caught up in a
> situation of England losing France and warring noblemen at home,
> maybe he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even with
> episodes of schizophrenia, he may have lived a fairly normal life
if
> he's been in a less stressful situation: stress incidentally can
> trigger schizophrenia.
>
> Henry wasn't despised after all. There was a movement to get him
> canonized and Richard III saw fit to rebury Henry's remains in
> Windsor out of respect and to heal old wounds.
>
> I certainly wouldn't rule out diabetes as a problem for Henry VIII,
> but syphilis has also been suggested: hence the fact that his
> children were sterile. Elizabeth I even stated: `We are of barren
> stock.' Let's face it she needed a child to counter the threat
from
> her Catholic cousin Mary Queen of Scots.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> > however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> > aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> > uncommon.
> >
> > Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
> only
> > a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger
it.
> We
> > are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
> the
> > disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> > developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
> now
> > medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
> which
> > causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly
differently,
> > and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> > rogue "wiring" in the brain. I shouldn't be surprised if some
> poisons
> > used by alchemists couldn't have the same effect. In fact, I
think
> > one of the reasons historians now favour schizophrenia as an
> > explanation for Henry's illness is that he was apparently
perfectly
> > normal, active and mentally precocious even as old as 15, but a
few
> > years after that things started going badly wrong for him.
> > The idea that he was simply by nature a weak, unworldly, bookish
> chap
> > doesn't really stand up to scrutiny. One of the problems with him
> is
> > that, when lucid, he continued to interfere in affairs of state
in
> a
> > very damaging way. He was also quite capable of putting his
> signature
> > to warrants specifying the treatment to be meted out to the
various
> > cuts of executed traitors. He kept Somerset in power, it would
> seem,
> > because he liked him.
> > His foundation of King's and Eton, of course, belong to the early
> > period, before his mind started to betray him.
> > He appears to have started dabbling with alchemists in the 1440s,
> and
> > the first claims of his being mad date from the same decade, but
I
> > can't remember exact dates.
> >
> > >
> > > hatmakers used mercury, hence the phrase mad as a hatter, or
> the
> > mad hatter. royals were human and just as able, if not more able
to
> > access concoctions that could do them physical and mental harm.
> >
> > Indeed. George III's hair, on analysis, was found to contain
> alarming
> > levels of arsenic. The theory is that he was getting this from
> > the "Jones powder" he was taking daily, and that it was this
which
> > triggered the porphyria (another genetic disease which doesn't
> > necessarily present).
> >
> > .
> > >
> > > and for what it's worth, i think the tudors may have been
> > diabetic. prior to the discovery of the new world, sugar was in
> > limited supply. the importation of sugar cane changed all
> that...more
> > sugar.
> > >
> > > diabetes can often be controlled via diet, but when you throw
> in
> > loads of sugar you need to add insulin. it wasn't invented then.
> > >
> > > some of things that make me think diabetes was a problem for
> the
> > tudors are:
> > >
> > > sickly children, i.e. arthur tudor, and edward vi
> > > miscarriages, and high infant mortality.
> > >
> > > plus henry viii's well known uneven temper complete with
> violent
> > outbursts are not uncommon among diabetics due to blood sugar
> > fluctuations.
> > >
> > > additionally rumours of henry's impotence, plus ulcerated
sores
> > that failed to heal. his obesity, and henry's vision was also
> > failing. he had several pairs of spectacles/eyeglasses.
> >
> > Do you know when he started using glasses? 47, his age at death,
is
> > about the age most people start needing reading glasses, but to
> have
> > had several pairs by that age does indeed suggest something
else.
> > There are several possible conditions, I suppose, such as
glaucoma,
> > but diabetes would be the prime suspect.
> > Diabetes is a very plausible explanation for the leg ulcer that
> > wouldn't heal. I've often puzzled over that. If it were simply
> > infected, he'd surely have got septicaemia or gangrene pretty
soon.
> >
> > The other things could be due to diabetes, but there are so many
> > other possible explanations for these things that on their own
they
> > wouldn't have convinced me. It really does interest me, though,
as
> an
> > explanation for the leg ulcer.
> >
> > Marie
> >
>

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> it appears he may have been wearing them as early as 1511. i don't
read/speak german, but one of hal's helmets had rivet glasses in 1511.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=13386171&dopt=Abstract
>
> in trying to determine when he was wearing them, i was surprised
to find that eyeglasses were in use in the 13thC by europeans, and
there are records of the arabs using them in the 10thC.
>
> i'm legally blind, and have worn glasses since i was 6 months
old. so i found this bit of history fascinating.
>
> no i don't know how my parents kept the glasses on me, except i
know i can not see without them, (everything is just blurred colours)
so i may have realised the glasses gave me vision, and just left them
alone after the first few tries at getting the things off my face.
even with dirty lenses, i can still see better with glasses than
without.
>
> my mother's favourite command was "go clean your glasses." i saw
myself without glasses for the first time in my early 30's when i got
contact lens for vanity reasons. a waste of money really so much
bother and expense..and glasses are much easier to find/feel.
>
> roslyn

I'm not as badly off as yourself, Roslyn, but I am extremely
shortsighted and the world is something of a colourful blur without
them. I do wear contact lenses, and not just for reasons of vanity.
They give me better all-round vision and stay put,. One side of my
face is considerably narrower than the other, my nose is not very
big, and in the old days before the new super-light lenses and frames
glasses either wouldn't stay on or made the backs of my ears very
sore. I also found the weight of them set off shooting pains where
they rested on my cheekbones. When I got contact lenses I was made up.
They don't steam up when I come in out of the cold, either, or get
covered in rain.
These days, anyway, I think glasses actually cost more than contact
lenses, particularly if you want the extra-extra-thin "glass".

I don't think Henry can have had a serious vision problem when he was
a young man or he would not have been such a good jouster - the
spectacles in those days were not made to prescription and so were of
only limited use. Do we know if there is any prescription effect at
all in the glasses riveted to the armour (I think I've seen a picture
of that suit of armour)? If not, could they have been a novel device
to protect the eyes from damage?
Margaret Beaufort certainly wore glasses in her fifties, but I
imagine that was for the normal middle-aged reason - there is a
record of her having been given a pair as a gift, by Princess Cecily,
I think. Is it possible that some of Henry VIII's glasses were
actually heirlooms inherited from his granny, who doted on him? My
mum still has my dad's last pair of glasses, and no doubt they'll be
passed on in time.

Marie

i'm extremely far sighted, with each eye seeing dependently of the other, compounded by being born cross eyed (3 ops later) and my eyes are "tied" striaght. i can not get the laser surgery as they are still too experimental for my vision...and i don't particularily want it either, as my last op altered my vision somewhat. my depth perception is the pits, and my periferal vision is limited.

with my glasses off, i can focus on distance (50 or so yards away) fairly well, but anything within 10 feet of me is a total blur.

a magnifying glass is my best friend if i have to read anything offline, and sometimes on line too. i have to wonder what my neighbours think if they walk by my window when i'm on the computer reading the screen with a magnifying glass..lol.

i pay the extra for the thin glass, and to have the glasses tinted. my eyes are also light sensitive, and the photo-grey won't work for my prescription. the optomitrist says they would darken outside, but not lighten up quickly enough when i was in indoor lighting.

the real fun thing is i can still drive, simply because i see things closer than they are..so i never tail gate. and the further a thing is from me, the better i see it. my arms aren't long enough to read a book.

i also live in a small town. there is no way i would even consider driving in a large urban center.

now, back to h8, i don't know what the purpose of the helmet glasses were. you could be right about them being for eye protection vs vision enhancement.

i just remember reading that henry had a collection of glasses. i never explored the whens and why fors prior to my post regarding the helmet lenses.

it was his temperment, and leg ulcers that first made me think of diabetes. my father was a severe diabetic with an explosive temper in his latter years.

especially after his leg amputation as a result of by a sore that would never heal. his amputation never properly healed either.

my two sisters are also diabetic, and i'm border line cushings syndrome. (which i didn't know was related to diabetes) so, i'm going to push my doctor to really investigate if i do have it. my cortizol levels aren't considered high enough. my adreanal glands are enlarged tho, and i exhibit many of the symptoms of cushings. (thanks will for the lead re: cushings/diabetes)

roslyn

mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> it appears he may have been wearing them as early as 1511. i don't
read/speak german, but one of hal's helmets had rivet glasses in 1511.
>
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=13386171&dopt=Abstract
>
> in trying to determine when he was wearing them, i was surprised
to find that eyeglasses were in use in the 13thC by europeans, and
there are records of the arabs using them in the 10thC.
>
> i'm legally blind, and have worn glasses since i was 6 months
old. so i found this bit of history fascinating.
>
> no i don't know how my parents kept the glasses on me, except i
know i can not see without them, (everything is just blurred colours)
so i may have realised the glasses gave me vision, and just left them
alone after the first few tries at getting the things off my face.
even with dirty lenses, i can still see better with glasses than
without.
>
> my mother's favourite command was "go clean your glasses." i saw
myself without glasses for the first time in my early 30's when i got
contact lens for vanity reasons. a waste of money really so much
bother and expense..and glasses are much easier to find/feel.
>
> roslyn

I'm not as badly off as yourself, Roslyn, but I am extremely
shortsighted and the world is something of a colourful blur without
them. I do wear contact lenses, and not just for reasons of vanity.
They give me better all-round vision and stay put,. One side of my
face is considerably narrower than the other, my nose is not very
big, and in the old days before the new super-light lenses and frames
glasses either wouldn't stay on or made the backs of my ears very
sore. I also found the weight of them set off shooting pains where
they rested on my cheekbones. When I got contact lenses I was made up.
They don't steam up when I come in out of the cold, either, or get
covered in rain.
These days, anyway, I think glasses actually cost more than contact
lenses, particularly if you want the extra-extra-thin "glass".

I don't think Henry can have had a serious vision problem when he was
a young man or he would not have been such a good jouster - the
spectacles in those days were not made to prescription and so were of
only limited use. Do we know if there is any prescription effect at
all in the glasses riveted to the armour (I think I've seen a picture
of that suit of armour)? If not, could they have been a novel device
to protect the eyes from damage?
Margaret Beaufort certainly wore glasses in her fifties, but I
imagine that was for the normal middle-aged reason - there is a
record of her having been given a pair as a gift, by Princess Cecily,
I think. Is it possible that some of Henry VIII's glasses were
actually heirlooms inherited from his granny, who doted on him? My
mum still has my dad's last pair of glasses, and no doubt they'll be
passed on in time.

Marie








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--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> i'm extremely far sighted, with each eye seeing dependently of the
other, compounded by being born cross eyed (3 ops later) and my eyes
are "tied" striaght. i can not get the laser surgery as they are
still too experimental for my vision...and i don't particularily want
it either, as my last op altered my vision somewhat. my depth
perception is the pits, and my periferal vision is limited.


>
> with my glasses off, i can focus on distance (50 or so yards
away) fairly well, but anything within 10 feet of me is a total blur.

> I'm quite the opposite. Without "aids" I can focus brillinatly up
to 10" from my eyes; after that things go rapidly further out of
focus. So if I need to do any close work, I take out the lenses and
get instant magnification. But the lack of distance vision is a real
problem outdoors, crossing roads especially, so glasses in the rain
are a bit of a problem.
I wouldn't risk laser treatment either, and it's never been suggested
by my optician (why would he, I hear you ask). I understand that the
bigger the problem to correct the more eye they have to slice, and
they don't yet know the long-term effects. My sister-in-law has had
laser surgery for retinal bleeding due to diabetes. It has all gone
terribly wrong, leaving her with very little vision and constant
pain. I'll stick with what I have, thanks.

Now to get on to your other post about Stillington. I've been
compiling a bit of info on him lately. Sadly, I think that Taunton is
a wild goose chase. For a start I'm not sure what's included
in "benefices" (he gave them all up in 1466). Secondly, my notes tell
me that in 1476 he wrote from the manor of Wookey in Somerset, and
from Welles itself, promising to carry out a visitation of his
diocese (it didn't happen). These are the Somerseet references,
nothing about Taunton. Wookey didn't belong to Clarence, though
Clarence did have a lot of land in the county.
My main problem is that Eleanor Butler was probably not in Somerset,
and also if Stillington had been imprisoned for telling Clarence
about the precontract:-
1) He would have been imprisoned during Clarence's lifetime
2) Clarence would have shouted about it, and it would have become
public knowledge. THe Queen would have got to hear about it, and and
even if Richard missed the news she'd have done something to silence
Stillington after Edward's death.
However, Stillington's imprisonment (which took place sometime before
6 March 1478) is too close to Clarence's execution to have NOTHING to
do with it - IMO.
It is my theory that Stillington felt so bad after Clarence's
execution, knowing about the precontract and its implications as well
as the claim of Edward IV's own illegitimacy, that he confided in
someone shortly after his death, and that someone told the
King.Croyland wrote that Stillington did nothing except through his
former pupil John alcock, Bishop of Worcester and President of the
Prince's Council at Ludlow. I think Someone was probably Alcock.
Alock, although closely involved with Edward V as Prince of Wales,
and an enthusiastic member of Henry VII's regime, interestingly did
not oppose richard III's accession, and seems to have worked loyally
for him througout his reign. So, I wonder, did he know the truth of
his prince's illegitimacy more surely than most?

By the by, if you're interested in Stillington and documents, there's
some interesting stuff in the York city records. After Bosworth the
Bishop fled north, probably back to his native manor of Nether
Acaster, just south of York city, at this time owned by his nephew
Thomas Stillington. He was soon found and brought to York in custody,
and the rest as they say is history. However, entries in the York
house books show that at some point (probably straight after Bosworth)
he gave to his nephew Thomas and Sir William Ingleby, the husband of
Thomas's sister Katherine, no less than 77 documents, "scrolls and
muniments in parchment and paper concerning the reverend father in
God the Bishop of Bath and other". Thomas Stillington and Willam
Ingleby then passed these on to another Yorkist sympathisier, Sir
Thomas Wandesford, who formally returned them to Thomas and William
in August 1486, the Mayor and council of York acting as witnesses.
Now, I wonder what these all contained. . . .

Marie



> a magnifying glass is my best friend if i have to read anything
offline, and sometimes on line too. i have to wonder what my
neighbours think if they walk by my window when i'm on the computer
reading the screen with a magnifying glass..lol.
>
> i pay the extra for the thin glass, and to have the glasses
tinted. my eyes are also light sensitive, and the photo-grey won't
work for my prescription. the optomitrist says they would darken
outside, but not lighten up quickly enough when i was in indoor
lighting.
>
> the real fun thing is i can still drive, simply because i see
things closer than they are..so i never tail gate. and the further a
thing is from me, the better i see it. my arms aren't long enough to
read a book.
>
> i also live in a small town. there is no way i would even
consider driving in a large urban center.
>
> now, back to h8, i don't know what the purpose of the helmet
glasses were. you could be right about them being for eye protection
vs vision enhancement.
>
> i just remember reading that henry had a collection of glasses. i
never explored the whens and why fors prior to my post regarding the
helmet lenses.
>
> it was his temperment, and leg ulcers that first made me think of
diabetes. my father was a severe diabetic with an explosive temper in
his latter years.
>
> especially after his leg amputation as a result of by a sore that
would never heal. his amputation never properly healed either.
>
> my two sisters are also diabetic, and i'm border line cushings
syndrome. (which i didn't know was related to diabetes) so, i'm going
to push my doctor to really investigate if i do have it. my cortizol
levels aren't considered high enough. my adreanal glands are enlarged
tho, and i exhibit many of the symptoms of cushings. (thanks will for
the lead re: cushings/diabetes)
>
> roslyn
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@r...> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > it appears he may have been wearing them as early as 1511. i
don't
> read/speak german, but one of hal's helmets had rivet glasses in
1511.
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?
> cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=13386171&dopt=Abstract
> >
> > in trying to determine when he was wearing them, i was
surprised
> to find that eyeglasses were in use in the 13thC by europeans, and
> there are records of the arabs using them in the 10thC.
> >
> > i'm legally blind, and have worn glasses since i was 6 months
> old. so i found this bit of history fascinating.
> >
> > no i don't know how my parents kept the glasses on me, except i
> know i can not see without them, (everything is just blurred
colours)
> so i may have realised the glasses gave me vision, and just left
them
> alone after the first few tries at getting the things off my face.
> even with dirty lenses, i can still see better with glasses than
> without.
> >
> > my mother's favourite command was "go clean your glasses." i
saw
> myself without glasses for the first time in my early 30's when i
got
> contact lens for vanity reasons. a waste of money really so much
> bother and expense..and glasses are much easier to find/feel.
> >
> > roslyn
>
> I'm not as badly off as yourself, Roslyn, but I am extremely
> shortsighted and the world is something of a colourful blur without
> them. I do wear contact lenses, and not just for reasons of vanity.
> They give me better all-round vision and stay put,. One side of my
> face is considerably narrower than the other, my nose is not very
> big, and in the old days before the new super-light lenses and
frames
> glasses either wouldn't stay on or made the backs of my ears very
> sore. I also found the weight of them set off shooting pains where
> they rested on my cheekbones. When I got contact lenses I was made
up.
> They don't steam up when I come in out of the cold, either, or get
> covered in rain.
> These days, anyway, I think glasses actually cost more than contact
> lenses, particularly if you want the extra-extra-thin "glass".
>
> I don't think Henry can have had a serious vision problem when he
was
> a young man or he would not have been such a good jouster - the
> spectacles in those days were not made to prescription and so were
of
> only limited use. Do we know if there is any prescription effect at
> all in the glasses riveted to the armour (I think I've seen a
picture
> of that suit of armour)? If not, could they have been a novel
device
> to protect the eyes from damage?
> Margaret Beaufort certainly wore glasses in her fifties, but I
> imagine that was for the normal middle-aged reason - there is a
> record of her having been given a pair as a gift, by Princess
Cecily,
> I think. Is it possible that some of Henry VIII's glasses were
> actually heirlooms inherited from his granny, who doted on him? My
> mum still has my dad's last pair of glasses, and no doubt they'll
be
> passed on in time.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
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>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
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Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> Richard II died at Pontefract. It was Edward II who was murdered at
Berkeley (unless you believe Paul Doherty et ak).
>\


Boy, I wish I could say this was a slip of the typing fingers, but
no, I had "remembered" that it was Berkeley. Obviously I should fact-
check everything I think I remember.

Katy

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > henry vi may have suffered from an inherited mental illness,
> however, ingesting assorted chemicals would have most likely
> aggravated the condition. mercury and lead poisoning were not
> uncommon.
>
> Absolutely. The thing about schizophrenia is that inheritance is
only
> a factor. Something else, apparently, has to happen to trigger it.
We
> are now, for instance, seeing an epidemic of young men developing
the
> disease due to using cannabis before their brains are fully
> developed, which doesn't happen until the early twenties. This is
now
> medically established. All that is necessary is to have a gene
which
> causes the individual to metabolise dopamine slightly differently,
> and they are extremely vulnerable to the drug causing permanent
> rogue "wiring" in the brain.


Someone may have already mentioned this, but signs of schizophrenia
often first appear during the mid to late teens, which fits with what
we know of Henry VI's situation.

Katy