Why do we think York had brown hair anyway?

Regarding the likeness or otherwise of Richard, Edward and Clarence
to the Duke of York and hair colour, I've looked at the following
pictures.

Colour illustration of stained glass, Cirencester Church, head of
Richard, Duke of York, (in M Jones's Bosworth paperback). You can't
see much of York's hair as he's wearing a crown and has the pudding
basin haircut, but it looks as if it might be yellow. I think the
eyes are blue.

Colour reproduction of stained glass, Trinity College, Cambridge
(Jones) full length portrait of York: York has yellow, wavy hair.

Black and white photo of stained glass portrait head of Richard of
York, Penrith (Kendall 1971 paperback): brown hair and a beard. The
eyes are a pale colour.

So it could have been York who was blond.

Now here is genetics 101.

Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.

2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
their children.

In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
their parents would have had to have brown hair.

If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.

If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.

York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers for
yellow hair.

I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's son,
though.

As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought he
looked more like Richard than Edward.

Joanne

Was hair dyeing a prominent part of that culture? I know that henna was
used to add a reddish colour.

jotwo2003 wrote:

> Regarding the likeness or otherwise of Richard, Edward and Clarence
> to the Duke of York and hair colour, I've looked at the following
> pictures.
>
> Colour illustration of stained glass, Cirencester Church, head of
> Richard, Duke of York, (in M Jones's Bosworth paperback). You can't
> see much of York's hair as he's wearing a crown and has the pudding
> basin haircut, but it looks as if it might be yellow. I think the
> eyes are blue.
>
> Colour reproduction of stained glass, Trinity College, Cambridge
> (Jones) full length portrait of York: York has yellow, wavy hair.
>
> Black and white photo of stained glass portrait head of Richard of
> York, Penrith (Kendall 1971 paperback): brown hair and a beard. The
> eyes are a pale colour.
>
> So it could have been York who was blond.
>
> Now here is genetics 101.
>
> Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
> blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.
>
> 2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
> Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
> One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
> carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
> their children.
>
> In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
> their parents would have had to have brown hair.
>
> If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.
>
> If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.
>
> York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers for
> yellow hair.
>
> I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's son,
> though.
>
> As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought he
> looked more like Richard than Edward.
>
> Joanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- In , "jotwo2003"
<jsummerill@s...> wrote:

>
> Now here is genetics 101.
>
> Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
> blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.
>
> 2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
> Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
> One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
> carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
> their children.
>
> In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
> their parents would have had to have brown hair.
>
> If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.
>
> If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.
>
> York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers
for
> yellow hair.
>
> I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's
son,
> though.
>
> As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought
he
> looked more like Richard than Edward.
>


Unfortunately, human genetics is much more complicated than the
Mendelian pattern suggests. While generally speaking dark genes
dominate light, in individual cases that may not be so. I imagine
many people know of dark-skinned families in which all the children
have the same parents, but each child may have a different shade of
hair, skin, and eye color. Pure-blood American Indians (or Native
Americans if you wish) have black hair, black or brown eyes, and
brown skin, but that coloring is only weakly dominant. Usually
within a couple of generations of mixing with Caucasian genes, the
children have become red-headed with hazel or blue eyes. My mother
was one-quarter Cherokee and had auburn hair and hazel eyes...I am
one-eighth and I have blonde hair and blue eyes. I happened to have
married a blond blue-eyed man of Swedish/Welsh heritage, but when my
children were in school they got Indian Education classes about
their heritage and of the 18 children in the class, all but one (a
boy from Mexico with strong Aztec geneology) were blond or red-
headed.

In my family our Indian genetic background is more manifest in the
shape of our cheekbones and eyesockets and by an extra metatarsal
bone in each foot (which is why Indians are flat-footed) than by
coloring.

Katy

I know where you're coming from, Katy. I'm also part Cherokee (as well as part Mexican). My mother is part Cherokee and has blond hair and blue eyes. My father is half Norwegian and has dark, almost black hair and brown eyes. My brother has very light silvery-blond hair and dark blue eyes, and I have mixed brown hair with blonde overtones and green eyes. We know that our father must carry the blond gene, because we (in different amounts) received it, but also because his sister is blond and so was his biological father. After my parents split up, my father married my brown-haired, brown-eyed stepmother and had two more children. My youngest brother is practically a copy of my father at the age of four, while my sister has virtually the same hair I have.

oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:--- In , "jotwo2003"
<jsummerill@s...> wrote:

>
> Now here is genetics 101.
>
> Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
> blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.
>
> 2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
> Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
> One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
> carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
> their children.
>
> In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
> their parents would have had to have brown hair.
>
> If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.
>
> If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.
>
> York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers
for
> yellow hair.
>
> I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's
son,
> though.
>
> As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought
he
> looked more like Richard than Edward.
>


Unfortunately, human genetics is much more complicated than the
Mendelian pattern suggests. While generally speaking dark genes
dominate light, in individual cases that may not be so. I imagine
many people know of dark-skinned families in which all the children
have the same parents, but each child may have a different shade of
hair, skin, and eye color. Pure-blood American Indians (or Native
Americans if you wish) have black hair, black or brown eyes, and
brown skin, but that coloring is only weakly dominant. Usually
within a couple of generations of mixing with Caucasian genes, the
children have become red-headed with hazel or blue eyes. My mother
was one-quarter Cherokee and had auburn hair and hazel eyes...I am
one-eighth and I have blonde hair and blue eyes. I happened to have
married a blond blue-eyed man of Swedish/Welsh heritage, but when my
children were in school they got Indian Education classes about
their heritage and of the 18 children in the class, all but one (a
boy from Mexico with strong Aztec geneology) were blond or red-
headed.

In my family our Indian genetic background is more manifest in the
shape of our cheekbones and eyesockets and by an extra metatarsal
bone in each foot (which is why Indians are flat-footed) than by
coloring.

Katy







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--- In , "jotwo2003"
<jsummerill@s...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the likeness or otherwise of Richard, Edward and Clarence
> to the Duke of York and hair colour, I've looked at the following
> pictures.
>
> Colour illustration of stained glass, Cirencester Church, head of
> Richard, Duke of York, (in M Jones's Bosworth paperback). You
can't
> see much of York's hair as he's wearing a crown and has the pudding
> basin haircut, but it looks as if it might be yellow. I think the
> eyes are blue.
>
> Colour reproduction of stained glass, Trinity College, Cambridge
> (Jones) full length portrait of York: York has yellow, wavy hair.
>
> Black and white photo of stained glass portrait head of Richard of
> York, Penrith (Kendall 1971 paperback): brown hair and a beard.
The
> eyes are a pale colour.
>
> So it could have been York who was blond.

Absolutely right about the Cirencester and Cambridge windows, I've
just checked my MKJ! So we have two blonds and a brown. To muddy the
waters still further, somewhere up in the loft I have a picture I cut
out of a history magazine once. It's from a manuscript, and shows
Richard Duke of York and the Earl of Shrewsbury, I think. (Or was he
another picture?) Anyway, as I remember it, it showed York with very
rich nut-brown hair. But perhaps I've imagined it, otherwise why
wouldn't more authors use it? I know the scrap book I stuck these
things in - I'll have a look at the weekend and see if I can find it.

I notice the Cirencester & Cambridge windows only really use yellow.
Even York's eyes are cat-yellow in the Cirencester window. That
particular shade was a new technique, and was splashed all over the
place in 15th century glass, so we perhaps need to be a bit wary of
it.
I wonder if that's really a beard in the Cambridge window, or a very
bad chinline? It's not coloured in like the hair, and beards were
right out of fashion. If it is a beard, and given the haircut, you'd
have to wonder whether the head was just copied from a 14th century
image. But then you say the Penrith picture has a beard as well. Did
he not like his chin or something?

I wonder when the Trinity window was put in. In the 15th century
Trinity College was still just King's Hall. At the Society conference
this year we were told that Edward IV revived the independence of
King's Hall (it says in my notes). Could the window have been put in
during Edward's reign? Johnson's biography of York doesn't mention
any patronage of Cambridge university - not that that proves anything.

None of the sources that talked about Richard's likeness to his
father actually mentioned colouring, I think, though you'd imagine
that would have a lot to do with superficial resemablances. Mancini
didn't specify at all, and Vergil just mentioned height and facial
shape.

The hair-colour genetics you describe does work okay with Caucasians,
as far as I understand - at least it's on the exam curriculum in our
schools. True, with some other racial groups, some of the dark colour
genes may be more recessive. I believe that is definitely the case
with Australian aborignes. So, yes, a dark-haired Richard would have
to have had at least one dark-haired parent. But, as you say, that
doesn't help us. Since it looks likely that Edward and Richard both
had dark hair, anyway, the hair probably ain't going to tell us
anything.

Frustrating, innit?

I don't rate the chances of exhumations for DNA tests either. Our
royals perhaps understandably haven't much liked the idea of past
royals - even Tutankhamun - being dug out and messed about with. I
suppose they see it as an ominous precedent.

Marie



>
> Now here is genetics 101.
>
> Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
> blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.
>
> 2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
> Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
> One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
> carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
> their children.
>
> In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
> their parents would have had to have brown hair.
>
> If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.
>
> If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.
>
> York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers
for
> yellow hair.
>
> I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's
son,
> though.
>
> As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought
he
> looked more like Richard than Edward.
>
> Joanne
>

I don't understand how children of Native Americans are becoming redheads.
Red hair is double recessive - every other colour dominates.

Greg.


----- Original Message -----
From: "jotwo2003" <jsummerill@...>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 4:30 AM
Subject: Why do we think York had brown hair
anyway?


> Regarding the likeness or otherwise of Richard, Edward and Clarence
> to the Duke of York and hair colour, I've looked at the following
> pictures.
>
> Colour illustration of stained glass, Cirencester Church, head of
> Richard, Duke of York, (in M Jones's Bosworth paperback). You can't
> see much of York's hair as he's wearing a crown and has the pudding
> basin haircut, but it looks as if it might be yellow. I think the
> eyes are blue.
>
> Colour reproduction of stained glass, Trinity College, Cambridge
> (Jones) full length portrait of York: York has yellow, wavy hair.
>
> Black and white photo of stained glass portrait head of Richard of
> York, Penrith (Kendall 1971 paperback): brown hair and a beard. The
> eyes are a pale colour.
>
> So it could have been York who was blond.
>
> Now here is genetics 101.
>
> Children get a gene from each parent for hair colour. The gene for
> blond hair is recessive. The gene for brown hair is dominant.
>
> 2 yellow haired genes and the child is blond.
> Two brown genes and the child has brown hair.
> One brown gene and one blond gene and the child has brown hair but
> carries the recessive gene for blond hair which they can pass on to
> their children.
>
> In which case, for Richard III to have brown hair, at least one of
> their parents would have had to have brown hair.
>
> If York was blond, then Cecily would have had to be brunette.
>
> If Cecily was blonde then York would have had to have brown hair.
>
> York and Cecily could both have had brown hair but been carriers for
> yellow hair.
>
> I don't think this helps in working out if Edward IV was York's son,
> though.
>
> As for Clarence, the Rous roll drawing was in Jones, but I thought he
> looked more like Richard than Edward.
>
> Joanne
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "Greg Henderson"
<skruff@p...> wrote:
>
> I don't understand how children of Native Americans are becoming
redheads.
> Red hair is double recessive - every other colour dominates.


Strange, perhaps, but true in my admittedly fairly limited experience.


Katy

--- In , "Greg Henderson"
<skruff@p...> wrote:
>
> I don't understand how children of Native Americans are becoming
redheads.
> Red hair is double recessive - every other colour dominates.
>
> Greg.

If that's so (I've often wondered what the rule is for red hair),
then I guess it simply takes more than one generation: ie a Native
American marries a caucasian who is either a red-head or who carries
a recessive gene for red hair. A red-hair gene is thus passed on to
their child, who nevertheless still has black hair. Said child,
however, then marriesy a caucasian or someone 1/2 & 1/2 like
themselves with a red-hair gene, and produce a red-haired child.
There is something unusual in red hair and freckles, though, isn't
there? I understand the melanin of people like that is not normal,
which is why red-heads don't generally tan, they only freckle. I get
the impression red hair may be a mutation of a black-haired gene.
Certainly the black hair on dead bodies can turn bright ginger over
the centuries.
I've certainly seen many black people who aren't entirely black who
have freckles and even the hint of ginger in their hair.

Marie

Dark haired men quite often have gingery bits in their beards or moustaches, less often in head hair. The same is true of fair-haired men. My father is definitely fair, his moustache a bit gingery.

Ann

mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:

There is something unusual in red hair and freckles, though, isn't
there? I understand the melanin of people like that is not normal,
which is why red-heads don't generally tan, they only freckle. I get
the impression red hair may be a mutation of a black-haired gene.
Certainly the black hair on dead bodies can turn bright ginger over
the centuries.
I've certainly seen many black people who aren't entirely black who
have freckles and even the hint of ginger in their hair.

Marie






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My beard had a distinct gingery cast years ago. The grey has pretty much
covered it up, but that's another story.

A LYON wrote:

> Dark haired men quite often have gingery bits in their beards or
> moustaches, less often in head hair. The same is true of fair-haired
> men. My father is definitely fair, his moustache a bit gingery.
>
> Ann
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
>
> There is something unusual in red hair and freckles, though, isn't
> there? I understand the melanin of people like that is not normal,
> which is why red-heads don't generally tan, they only freckle. I get
> the impression red hair may be a mutation of a black-haired gene.
> Certainly the black hair on dead bodies can turn bright ginger over
> the centuries.
> I've certainly seen many black people who aren't entirely black who
> have freckles and even the hint of ginger in their hair.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
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>
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>

Yes. My grandfather had dark brown hair but when he tried to grow a moustache that came out ginger.

He had six siblings and they alterated brown/ red hair. His father was of English descent and his mother of Irish but I think some of her family came originally from Scotland.

Helen

A LYON <A.Lyon1@...> wrote:
Dark haired men quite often have gingery bits in their beards or moustaches, less often in head hair. The same is true of fair-haired men. My father is definitely fair, his moustache a bit gingery.

Ann

mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:

There is something unusual in red hair and freckles, though, isn't
there? I understand the melanin of people like that is not normal,
which is why red-heads don't generally tan, they only freckle. I get
the impression red hair may be a mutation of a black-haired gene.
Certainly the black hair on dead bodies can turn bright ginger over
the centuries.
I've certainly seen many black people who aren't entirely black who
have freckles and even the hint of ginger in their hair.

Marie






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--- In , Helen Rowe
<sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Yes. My grandfather had dark brown hair but when he tried to grow a
moustache that came out ginger.
>
> He had six siblings and they alterated brown/ red hair. His father
was of English descent and his mother of Irish but I think some of her
family came originally from Scotland.




Somebody in my mother's family who researched our 'tree' swears she
learned that red hair is synonymous with Viking/Norse ancestry.

I guess anyone who has ancestors from the British Isles would probably have Viking/ Norse ancestry and Celt, Norman, Roman etc etc.

Helen (who has dark brown hair and brown eyes)

oz_rain_walker <[email protected]> wrote:


Somebody in my mother's family who researched our 'tree' swears she
learned that red hair is synonymous with Viking/Norse ancestry.







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--- In , oz_rain_walker
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes. My grandfather had dark brown hair but when he tried to
grow a
> moustache that came out ginger.
> >
> > He had six siblings and they alterated brown/ red hair. His
father
> was of English descent and his mother of Irish but I think some of
her
> family came originally from Scotland.
>
>
>
>
> Somebody in my mother's family who researched our 'tree' swears she
> learned that red hair is synonymous with Viking/Norse ancestry.

Trouble is, you can read all sorts of things. The typical Norwegian
is blond, and a lot of Danes are dark-haired. In fact, the ancient
Irish, who refered to the Vikings as "Gall" (foreigners),
differentiated between the Fionn-gall (Fair Gall, or Norwegians) and
the Dubh-gall (Dark Gall, or Danes).

On the other hand, Russia is so named because the Vikings who settled
there were called Rus for their colouring.

There are definitely far far more red-heads in the west of Ireland
and the Scottish Highlands than in Scandinavia. I don't think the red
hair in your family is likely to be due to anything other than your
Irish/Scottish descent. My mother is Irish; her mother and
grandmother were both red-heads. Red hair is just SO common in the
Gaelic west.

Marie
>