Coats of Arms

For your convenience I've posted pics of my Kingmaker cards over on the
files page.
This contains arms for all those persons I consider to have
constituted "The Peerage" in 1453. Included are those cases I
mentioned earlier as "courtesey" titles, and those of dubious
legitimacy such as Radcliffe/FitzWalter and Gray of Powys.
Quartering of arms is a problem in that it's difficult to find out if a
Lord bore particular quarters at any given date.
If anyone sees any errors on the arms let me know and I'll correct them.
Likewise any Lord I may have missed. I've seen mention of someone
called Lord "Saintmounte" but haven't been able to track him down.
You'll see that the cards also list what I believe to be the principle
estates of the nobles. In some cases (Exeter) I simply don't have
enough information. In others I'm confused as to which estates were
held by close relatives, particularly in the case of the various Greys
and their English estates. Again, any information helping me to
correct mistakes will be welcome.

--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> For your convenience I've posted pics of my Kingmaker cards over on
the
> files page.
> This contains arms for all those persons I consider to have
> constituted "The Peerage" in 1453. Included are those cases I
> mentioned earlier as "courtesey" titles, and those of dubious
> legitimacy such as Radcliffe/FitzWalter and Gray of Powys.
> Quartering of arms is a problem in that it's difficult to find out
if a
> Lord bore particular quarters at any given date.
> If anyone sees any errors on the arms let me know and I'll correct
them.
> Likewise any Lord I may have missed. I've seen mention of someone
> called Lord "Saintmounte" but haven't been able to track him down.
> You'll see that the cards also list what I believe to be the
principle
> estates of the nobles. In some cases (Exeter) I simply don't have
> enough information.


I have the following list of the estates of Henry Duke of Exeter (I
took quite an interest in him at one time):-

Bedfordshire - manor of Stevington

Berkshire - manor of Ardington

Cheshire - town of Northwich
lordship of Overmarsh
Derbyshire - manor of ?Tackbear
manors or lorships of Dalbere, Dalberelees & Wirksowrth

Devon - hundreds of Fremington & South Millon
lordships & manors of Barnstaple, Bovey Tracey, Combe Martin,
Damerell, Dartington, Fleet, Fremington, Holsworthy, Langacre, South
Milton, Thornton (or poss. Thorverton), Torrington, Winkleigh Tracey

Flintshire - lordships of Hope and Hopedale

Hertfordshire - manor of Great Gaddesdon
from 1459 - an inn in St Albans held of the King

Lancashire - manors of Haydock* and Newton*

London - Coldharbour mansion & Coldharbour Lane

Northamptonshire - lordships and manors of Achurch*, Aldwincle*,
Caldecote*, Chelveston* & Thorpe Waterville*

Pembokeshire - lordships & manors of Manorbier & Pennaly

Rutland - manor of Rillington

Somerset - manors of Blagdon, Lydford & Hazelbeare
hundreds of Catsash and Stone

wiltshire - manor of Barford St Martin

* properties with asterisk were inherited in 1451 from his kinsman
Sir John Holland of Thorpe Waterville.

Residences he used included:-
Great Gaddesdon manor house, Herts
Thorpe Waterville manor house, Northants (besieged by yorkists
during wars)
Dartington Hall Devon
Coldharbour Inn, London

Also, he often resided in the Tower of London, of which he was
Constable. His attempts, by violence, forgery and perjury, to acquire
Lord Cromwell's Bedfordshire manors of Ampthill (with its brick
castle), Millbrook and flitwick, were ultimately unsuccessful. These
had belonged to Sir John Cornwall, Lord Fanhope, the second husband
of Exeter's grandmother Elizabeth of Lancaster, but had left them
fairly & squarely to Cromwell.

Marie







In others I'm confused as to which estates were
> held by close relatives, particularly in the case of the various
Greys
> and their English estates. Again, any information helping me to
> correct mistakes will be welcome.
>

Marie, thanks. I wonder if you could let me know where you found
this info. It would also be useful to know how these properties were
aquired, as I'm currently working on a set of cards which
includes "extinct" peerages, and in which a noble's estates are built
up from a stack of such cards representing his inheritance and awards
from the crown.
I also need to know the estates of the Holland Earls of Kent, in
particular how they were partitioned between the numerous co-
heiresses.
It's particularly difficult to trace the descent of estates which
were conveyed by sale rather than inheritance. For example I had
Barnstable down as owned by Lord Audley, so presumably it must have
been sold (or perhaps forfeited) somewhere down the line.

> I have the following list of the estates of Henry Duke of Exeter (I
> took quite an interest in him at one time):-
>
> Bedfordshire - manor of Stevington
>
> Berkshire - manor of Ardington
>
> Cheshire - town of Northwich
> lordship of Overmarsh
> Derbyshire - manor of ?Tackbear
> manors or lorships of Dalbere, Dalberelees & Wirksowrth
>
> Devon - hundreds of Fremington & South Millon
> lordships & manors of Barnstaple, Bovey Tracey, Combe
Martin,
> Damerell, Dartington, Fleet, Fremington, Holsworthy, Langacre,
South
> Milton, Thornton (or poss. Thorverton), Torrington, Winkleigh Tracey
>
> Flintshire - lordships of Hope and Hopedale
>
> Hertfordshire - manor of Great Gaddesdon
> from 1459 - an inn in St Albans held of the King
>
> Lancashire - manors of Haydock* and Newton*
>
> London - Coldharbour mansion & Coldharbour Lane
>
> Northamptonshire - lordships and manors of Achurch*, Aldwincle*,
> Caldecote*, Chelveston* & Thorpe Waterville*
>
> Pembokeshire - lordships & manors of Manorbier & Pennaly
>
> Rutland - manor of Rillington
>
> Somerset - manors of Blagdon, Lydford & Hazelbeare
> hundreds of Catsash and Stone
>
> wiltshire - manor of Barford St Martin
>
> * properties with asterisk were inherited in 1451 from his kinsman
> Sir John Holland of Thorpe Waterville.
>
> Residences he used included:-
> Great Gaddesdon manor house, Herts
> Thorpe Waterville manor house, Northants (besieged by yorkists
> during wars)
> Dartington Hall Devon
> Coldharbour Inn, London
>
> Also, he often resided in the Tower of London, of which he was
> Constable. His attempts, by violence, forgery and perjury, to
acquire
> Lord Cromwell's Bedfordshire manors of Ampthill (with its brick
> castle), Millbrook and flitwick, were ultimately unsuccessful.
These
> had belonged to Sir John Cornwall, Lord Fanhope, the second husband
> of Exeter's grandmother Elizabeth of Lancaster, but had left them
> fairly & squarely to Cromwell.
>
> Marie

--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> Marie, thanks. I wonder if you could let me know where you found
> this info. It would also be useful to know how these properties
were
> aquired, as I'm currently working on a set of cards which
> includes "extinct" peerages, and in which a noble's estates are
built
> up from a stack of such cards representing his inheritance and
awards
> from the crown.

The basic information came from the Complete Peerage, as I seem to
recall (I won't be able to check that until the dim and distant day
when my current city library get round to replacing the relevant
volume of their set, which has been missing for years).
There are also some good articles on Exeter, which deal with his
inheritance disputes of the 1405s. I can't recall if they're in the
Society library or not. Let me know if you're likely to want to
follow them up, and I'll see if I still have the details.

All but the estates inherited from Sir John Holland, Duke Henry had
from his father, I'm pretty certain.

A very useful source can be the published inquisitions post mortem.
I'm only really familiar with those from Henry VII's reign, though,
so I don't know what you might find there (or even if there are any
for the periods you want).

An extract from Duke John's will (as taken down by Dugdale) is given
in Testamenta Vetusta. It it mainly concerned with personal items,
but includes the following:-
"I will that my feoffees of my manors of Stevynton, Barford, St
Martin and Hamerviez, after my testament be performed, make an estate
to my said son, Sir Henry, of those manors, provided always that an
annuity of £40 be reserved for my two bastard sons, William and
Thomas."
I haven't seen the original will. It is not in the PCC collection
online. I think it is probably in the Westminster Abbey muniments,
where there is certainly an inventory of Duke John's goods (which I
haven't viewed either).

A> I also need to know the estates of the Holland Earls of Kent, in
> particular how they were partitioned between the numerous co-
> heiresses

As far as the division of the Holland estates is concerned, there is
quite a bit of information on that in 'The King's Mother' by Michael
K. Jones and Malcolm Underwood (no apologies to Dionysius for
recommending this).

> It's particularly difficult to trace the descent of estates which
> were conveyed by sale rather than inheritance. For example I had
> Barnstable down as owned by Lord Audley, so presumably it must have
> been sold (or perhaps forfeited) somewhere down the line.

I can't comment on Banrstaple, I'm afraid. It can all get very
complicated. Often people owned only a moiety or even a third of a
manor, or one noble held it of another. This is without the confusion
of properties that came and went, eg:-
a) the French lordship of Le Sparre, granted to Duke John, I think in
tbe early 1440s, firstly as a life grant and then, in Jan 1445, by
tenure in tail male. This was to be the source of Duke Henry's
personal wine supply until it was lost in 1453.
b) ". . . by another inquisition taken there [Chelmsford] on Tuesday
before Michaelmas 30 Henry VI before the . . . then escheator, and
likewise sent into Chancery, that by grant of the King, . . . that
Henry Duke of Exeter had the manor of Hadley worth £14 [a
year]. . . " (Close Rolls) It was granted to the Queen.

I wish you the best of luck!

Marie

Well, a bit of surfing around later, it seems that the FitzMartin
barony made up quite a large part of the estate. I'd been thrown on
this as the Martin Lordship of Cemais passed to the Audleys, and I'd
assumed the rest of their estates had also, including Barnstable and
the original caput at Blagdon.
Stevington seems to have come through the Quincy-Wake line.
Thorpe Waterville had a small castle built by the Watervilles.
I still can't trace any history for Great Gaddeston (or Gaddesden)
yet.
Anyway, the 5 Exeter estates look like being:
Dartington(FitzMartin)
Barnstable(Tracy)
Thorpe W(Waterville)
Stevington(Quincy?)
Great Gaddesden(?)

My little library doesn't have a Complete Peerage, so I'll have to
consider buying the CD version.

On the Kent estates, I have the Stuteville barony of Cottingham
passing to the Earl of Westmoreland, and Brockenhurst to Tiptoft via
Charlton. Like to know who ended up (1453) with the Wake caput of
Bourne.

Anyway thanks again for your help

BP
> The basic information came from the Complete Peerage, as I seem to
> recall (I won't be able to check that until the dim and distant day
> when my current city library get round to replacing the relevant
> volume of their set, which has been missing for years).
> There are also some good articles on Exeter, which deal with his
> inheritance disputes of the 1405s. I can't recall if they're in the
> Society library or not. Let me know if you're likely to want to
> follow them up, and I'll see if I still have the details.
>
> All but the estates inherited from Sir John Holland, Duke Henry had
> from his father, I'm pretty certain.
>
> A very useful source can be the published inquisitions post mortem.
> I'm only really familiar with those from Henry VII's reign, though,
> so I don't know what you might find there (or even if there are any
> for the periods you want).
>
> An extract from Duke John's will (as taken down by Dugdale) is
given
> in Testamenta Vetusta. It it mainly concerned with personal items,
> but includes the following:-
> "I will that my feoffees of my manors of Stevynton, Barford, St
> Martin and Hamerviez, after my testament be performed, make an
estate
> to my said son, Sir Henry, of those manors, provided always that an
> annuity of £40 be reserved for my two bastard sons, William and
> Thomas."
> I haven't seen the original will. It is not in the PCC collection
> online. I think it is probably in the Westminster Abbey muniments,
> where there is certainly an inventory of Duke John's goods (which I
> haven't viewed either).
>
> A> I also need to know the estates of the Holland Earls of Kent, in
> > particular how they were partitioned between the numerous co-
> > heiresses
>
> As far as the division of the Holland estates is concerned, there
is
> quite a bit of information on that in 'The King's Mother' by
Michael
> K. Jones and Malcolm Underwood (no apologies to Dionysius for
> recommending this).
>
> > It's particularly difficult to trace the descent of estates which
> > were conveyed by sale rather than inheritance. For example I had
> > Barnstable down as owned by Lord Audley, so presumably it must
have
> > been sold (or perhaps forfeited) somewhere down the line.
>
> I can't comment on Banrstaple, I'm afraid. It can all get very
> complicated. Often people owned only a moiety or even a third of a
> manor, or one noble held it of another. This is without the
confusion
> of properties that came and went, eg:-
> a) the French lordship of Le Sparre, granted to Duke John, I think
in
> tbe early 1440s, firstly as a life grant and then, in Jan 1445, by
> tenure in tail male. This was to be the source of Duke Henry's
> personal wine supply until it was lost in 1453.
> b) ". . . by another inquisition taken there [Chelmsford] on
Tuesday
> before Michaelmas 30 Henry VI before the . . . then escheator, and
> likewise sent into Chancery, that by grant of the King, . . . that
> Henry Duke of Exeter had the manor of Hadley worth £14 [a
> year]. . . " (Close Rolls) It was granted to the Queen.
>
> I wish you the best of luck!
>
> Marie
>

you may find these urls useful in your heraldric research.
http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm

http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm

roslyn

theblackprussian <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
Well, a bit of surfing around later, it seems that the FitzMartin
barony made up quite a large part of the estate. I'd been thrown on
this as the Martin Lordship of Cemais passed to the Audleys, and I'd
assumed the rest of their estates had also, including Barnstable and
the original caput at Blagdon.
Stevington seems to have come through the Quincy-Wake line.
Thorpe Waterville had a small castle built by the Watervilles.
I still can't trace any history for Great Gaddeston (or Gaddesden)
yet.
Anyway, the 5 Exeter estates look like being:
Dartington(FitzMartin)
Barnstable(Tracy)
Thorpe W(Waterville)
Stevington(Quincy?)
Great Gaddesden(?)

My little library doesn't have a Complete Peerage, so I'll have to
consider buying the CD version.

On the Kent estates, I have the Stuteville barony of Cottingham
passing to the Earl of Westmoreland, and Brockenhurst to Tiptoft via
Charlton. Like to know who ended up (1453) with the Wake caput of
Bourne.

Anyway thanks again for your help

BP
> The basic information came from the Complete Peerage, as I seem to
> recall (I won't be able to check that until the dim and distant day
> when my current city library get round to replacing the relevant
> volume of their set, which has been missing for years).
> There are also some good articles on Exeter, which deal with his
> inheritance disputes of the 1405s. I can't recall if they're in the
> Society library or not. Let me know if you're likely to want to
> follow them up, and I'll see if I still have the details.
>
> All but the estates inherited from Sir John Holland, Duke Henry had
> from his father, I'm pretty certain.
>
> A very useful source can be the published inquisitions post mortem.
> I'm only really familiar with those from Henry VII's reign, though,
> so I don't know what you might find there (or even if there are any
> for the periods you want).
>
> An extract from Duke John's will (as taken down by Dugdale) is
given
> in Testamenta Vetusta. It it mainly concerned with personal items,
> but includes the following:-
> "I will that my feoffees of my manors of Stevynton, Barford, St
> Martin and Hamerviez, after my testament be performed, make an
estate
> to my said son, Sir Henry, of those manors, provided always that an
> annuity of £40 be reserved for my two bastard sons, William and
> Thomas."
> I haven't seen the original will. It is not in the PCC collection
> online. I think it is probably in the Westminster Abbey muniments,
> where there is certainly an inventory of Duke John's goods (which I
> haven't viewed either).
>
> A> I also need to know the estates of the Holland Earls of Kent, in
> > particular how they were partitioned between the numerous co-
> > heiresses
>
> As far as the division of the Holland estates is concerned, there
is
> quite a bit of information on that in 'The King's Mother' by
Michael
> K. Jones and Malcolm Underwood (no apologies to Dionysius for
> recommending this).
>
> > It's particularly difficult to trace the descent of estates which
> > were conveyed by sale rather than inheritance. For example I had
> > Barnstable down as owned by Lord Audley, so presumably it must
have
> > been sold (or perhaps forfeited) somewhere down the line.
>
> I can't comment on Banrstaple, I'm afraid. It can all get very
> complicated. Often people owned only a moiety or even a third of a
> manor, or one noble held it of another. This is without the
confusion
> of properties that came and went, eg:-
> a) the French lordship of Le Sparre, granted to Duke John, I think
in
> tbe early 1440s, firstly as a life grant and then, in Jan 1445, by
> tenure in tail male. This was to be the source of Duke Henry's
> personal wine supply until it was lost in 1453.
> b) ". . . by another inquisition taken there [Chelmsford] on
Tuesday
> before Michaelmas 30 Henry VI before the . . . then escheator, and
> likewise sent into Chancery, that by grant of the King, . . . that
> Henry Duke of Exeter had the manor of Hadley worth £14 [a
> year]. . . " (Close Rolls) It was granted to the Queen.
>
> I wish you the best of luck!
>
> Marie
>






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Thanks for the links.
These may be helpful in assembling the "advanced" card set, but don't
cover the 15th century which is what I really need.
The best I've found so far is this set from a Towton Battle
description, but is far from complete and not entirely reliable!

http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/towton/towton4.htm

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> you may find these urls useful in your heraldric research.
> http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm
>
> http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm
>
> roslyn
>

here's a link for 15thC Cheshire. you may find some of what you are looking for here.
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/portal.html

theblackprussian <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
Thanks for the links.
These may be helpful in assembling the "advanced" card set, but don't
cover the 15th century which is what I really need.
The best I've found so far is this set from a Towton Battle
description, but is far from complete and not entirely reliable!

http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/towton/towton4.htm

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> you may find these urls useful in your heraldric research.
> http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm
>
> http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm
>
> roslyn
>







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---------------------------------

my error..should be 16thC cheshire.
and here's one for france with a range of dates from normans through the stuarts. many of the noble families had french connections.
http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/

fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
here's a link for 15thC Cheshire. you may find some of what you are looking for here.
http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/portal.html

theblackprussian <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
Thanks for the links.
These may be helpful in assembling the "advanced" card set, but don't
cover the 15th century which is what I really need.
The best I've found so far is this set from a Towton Battle
description, but is far from complete and not entirely reliable!

http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/towton/towton4.htm

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> you may find these urls useful in your heraldric research.
> http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm
>
> http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm
>
> roslyn
>







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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------










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---------------------------------

Thanks, I actually have some cards for the contemporary French and
Scottish nobility, so I'll see if I can update them.

Here's another useful site for Yorkshire Heraldry, though again some
arms are in error (e.g. it gives the Earl of Salisbury's arms for
Warwick).

http://yorkshirehistory.com/Gallery/albums.php


--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@y...> wrote:
>
> my error..should be 16thC cheshire.
> and here's one for france with a range of dates from normans
through the stuarts. many of the noble families had french
connections.
> http://membres.lycos.fr/heratlas/
>
> fayre rose <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> here's a link for 15thC Cheshire. you may find some of what you
are looking for here.
> http://cheshire-heraldry.org.uk/portal.html
>
> theblackprussian <theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
> Thanks for the links.
> These may be helpful in assembling the "advanced" card set, but
don't
> cover the 15th century which is what I really need.
> The best I've found so far is this set from a Towton Battle
> description, but is far from complete and not entirely reliable!
>
> http://www.yorkshirehistory.com/towton/towton4.htm
>
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@y...> wrote:
> >
> > you may find these urls useful in your heraldric research.
> > http://www.heraldsnet.org/saitou/parker/index.htm
> >
> > http://www.briantimms.com/era/early%20rolls%20of%20arms.htm
> >
> > roslyn
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom florist United
kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>