Richard III Movie
Richard III Movie
2006-01-06 22:35:58
I always thought SKP's "The Sunne in Splender" would make a great
miniseries. In that vein, here are some of my casting ideas:
Richard 3(boy)- The boy who plays Neville in the Harry Potter
movies. I think he has right mix of vulnerability, wonder and hidden
strength.
Richard 3 (adult)- Johnny Depp (although at 41 he's probably getting
too old) I think he's an amazing actor and he has the chops to do it
or Elijah Woods.
George of Clarence (boy) - Halley Joe Osmand (the boy from the 6th
Sense)
George of Clarence (adult) - Ralph Finnes (although he may be too
old for the role by now)
Richard, Duke of York - Viggo Mortensen ('nough said. Though it's a
shame to loose him so early in the series)
Cecely of York - Helen Mirien
Edward 4 - Sean Bean
Elizabeth Woodville - Miranda Otto
Edward V - The kid who plays Draco in the Potter films. I think he's
got the blood good looks from Edward but can play the cold,
calculating edge he got from the Woodvilles.
That's some of my ideas for now.
miniseries. In that vein, here are some of my casting ideas:
Richard 3(boy)- The boy who plays Neville in the Harry Potter
movies. I think he has right mix of vulnerability, wonder and hidden
strength.
Richard 3 (adult)- Johnny Depp (although at 41 he's probably getting
too old) I think he's an amazing actor and he has the chops to do it
or Elijah Woods.
George of Clarence (boy) - Halley Joe Osmand (the boy from the 6th
Sense)
George of Clarence (adult) - Ralph Finnes (although he may be too
old for the role by now)
Richard, Duke of York - Viggo Mortensen ('nough said. Though it's a
shame to loose him so early in the series)
Cecely of York - Helen Mirien
Edward 4 - Sean Bean
Elizabeth Woodville - Miranda Otto
Edward V - The kid who plays Draco in the Potter films. I think he's
got the blood good looks from Edward but can play the cold,
calculating edge he got from the Woodvilles.
That's some of my ideas for now.
Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-08 05:45:19
It seems like about every year or so we recast Richard
III the movie...
I've posted this before but never got any responses
(possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
2001:
http://www.millefiori.net/michelle/richardiii.html
lilith82200 - I obviously agree with your choice of
Edward!
For young Richard, I like the fellow who played Edmund
in the recent Narnia, though by the time a movie would
ever get made, he'd be old enough to play "old
Richard"! Obviously Viggo's too old now. Ah well.
Cheers,
Mishka
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
III the movie...
I've posted this before but never got any responses
(possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
2001:
http://www.millefiori.net/michelle/richardiii.html
lilith82200 - I obviously agree with your choice of
Edward!
For young Richard, I like the fellow who played Edmund
in the recent Narnia, though by the time a movie would
ever get made, he'd be old enough to play "old
Richard"! Obviously Viggo's too old now. Ah well.
Cheers,
Mishka
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-09 18:10:21
Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
off in front of Pontefract castle.
How about Brian Blessed as Jockey of Norfolk?
Or Graham Norton as James Butler of Wiltshire?
--- In , MIchelle <groups@m...>
wrote:
>
> It seems like about every year or so we recast Richard
> III the movie...
>
> I've posted this before but never got any responses
> (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> 2001:
>
> http://www.millefiori.net/michelle/richardiii.html
>
> lilith82200 - I obviously agree with your choice of
> Edward!
>
> For young Richard, I like the fellow who played Edmund
> in the recent Narnia, though by the time a movie would
> ever get made, he'd be old enough to play "old
> Richard"! Obviously Viggo's too old now. Ah well.
>
> Cheers,
> Mishka
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>
Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
off in front of Pontefract castle.
How about Brian Blessed as Jockey of Norfolk?
Or Graham Norton as James Butler of Wiltshire?
--- In , MIchelle <groups@m...>
wrote:
>
> It seems like about every year or so we recast Richard
> III the movie...
>
> I've posted this before but never got any responses
> (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> 2001:
>
> http://www.millefiori.net/michelle/richardiii.html
>
> lilith82200 - I obviously agree with your choice of
> Edward!
>
> For young Richard, I like the fellow who played Edmund
> in the recent Narnia, though by the time a movie would
> ever get made, he'd be old enough to play "old
> Richard"! Obviously Viggo's too old now. Ah well.
>
> Cheers,
> Mishka
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
> Just $16.99/mo. or less.
> dsl.yahoo.com
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 03:48:05
I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember relating his
Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the Yorkist colours
under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is admittedly not
as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a basically
good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but struggling and
making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing in the
end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham, I think
I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like Nathaniel
Parker.
...Kim
>From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...>
>Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
>Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
>him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
>off in front of Pontefract castle.
>--- In , MIchelle <groups@m...>
>wrote:
> > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > 2001:
Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the Yorkist colours
under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is admittedly not
as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a basically
good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but struggling and
making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing in the
end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham, I think
I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like Nathaniel
Parker.
...Kim
>From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@...>
>Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
>Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
>him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
>off in front of Pontefract castle.
>--- In , MIchelle <groups@m...>
>wrote:
> > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > 2001:
Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 17:44:15
with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
were "beautiful" regal people?
you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
famous/notorius people.
btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
personalities very well.
essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
the players could be talented unknowns.
and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
roslyn
--- In , "Ellies Whim"
<ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
>
> I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
relating his
> Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
Yorkist colours
> under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
admittedly not
> as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
basically
> good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
struggling and
> making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
in the
> end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
I think
> I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
Nathaniel
> Parker.
> ...Kim
>
>
> >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
>
> >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> >off in front of Pontefract castle.
>
> >--- In , MIchelle
<groups@m...>
> >wrote:
>
> > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > 2001:
>
were "beautiful" regal people?
you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
famous/notorius people.
btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
personalities very well.
essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
the players could be talented unknowns.
and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
roslyn
--- In , "Ellies Whim"
<ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
>
> I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
relating his
> Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
Yorkist colours
> under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
admittedly not
> as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
basically
> good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
struggling and
> making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
in the
> end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
I think
> I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
Nathaniel
> Parker.
> ...Kim
>
>
> >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
>
> >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> >off in front of Pontefract castle.
>
> >--- In , MIchelle
<groups@m...>
> >wrote:
>
> > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > 2001:
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 18:36:17
Yars, that's Buckingham? I was way off. I always pictured him as the beautiful-but-malicious-dandy type.
I do think, however, that a beautiful actress is needed for Elizabeth Woodeville, as I think her portrait is quite pretty, even if it's in an outdated sense.
I'm starting to think Stuart Townsend as Richard. He's handsome, but not overwhelmingly so... he even looks a little like the round-topped portrait. Compare the two:
Stuart Townsend: http://www.videomax.ro/Images/Actors/458_a_normal.jpg
Richard III: http://swapsal.adaptivetechnologies.com/paintings/images/480/235455.jpg
fayreroze <fayreroze@...> wrote:
with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
were "beautiful" regal people?
you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
famous/notorius people.
btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
personalities very well.
essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
the players could be talented unknowns.
and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
roslyn
--- In , "Ellies Whim"
<ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
>
> I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
relating his
> Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
Yorkist colours
> under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
admittedly not
> as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
basically
> good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
struggling and
> making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
in the
> end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
I think
> I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
Nathaniel
> Parker.
> ...Kim
>
>
> >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
>
> >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> >off in front of Pontefract castle.
>
> >--- In , MIchelle
<groups@m...>
> >wrote:
>
> > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > 2001:
>
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I do think, however, that a beautiful actress is needed for Elizabeth Woodeville, as I think her portrait is quite pretty, even if it's in an outdated sense.
I'm starting to think Stuart Townsend as Richard. He's handsome, but not overwhelmingly so... he even looks a little like the round-topped portrait. Compare the two:
Stuart Townsend: http://www.videomax.ro/Images/Actors/458_a_normal.jpg
Richard III: http://swapsal.adaptivetechnologies.com/paintings/images/480/235455.jpg
fayreroze <fayreroze@...> wrote:
with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
were "beautiful" regal people?
you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
famous/notorius people.
btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
personalities very well.
essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
the players could be talented unknowns.
and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
roslyn
--- In , "Ellies Whim"
<ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
>
> I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
relating his
> Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
Yorkist colours
> under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
admittedly not
> as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
basically
> good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
struggling and
> making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
in the
> end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
I think
> I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
Nathaniel
> Parker.
> ...Kim
>
>
> >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
>
> >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> >off in front of Pontefract castle.
>
> >--- In , MIchelle
<groups@m...>
> >wrote:
>
> > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > 2001:
>
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---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 18:55:48
Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> United kingdom vacation
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http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 20:16:15
For what it's worth, here's some descriptions of Richard from a book I'm writing:
“…dark blue eyes…” (page 9)
“He was a white man, though swarthier than the Salem villagers, and surely less than six feet tall. What impressed Tituba the most was his fur-trimmed gown…” (page 13)
“He was a somewhat lanky, small-figured man who looked about thirty-five… He had a broad forehead in an otherwise narrow face, denim-colored eyes with a hint of gray; a strong, protruding chin; a large nose; and narrow brows. His hair was black… and hung down to his jawline, slanting over his forehead.” (pages 47-48)
“He had a very rich, rolling Yorkshire brogue… I noticed a little dip in his step that was a far cry from the gross limp I affected in the play at school.” (page 48)
“Bent down, he became all forehead and nose.” (page 56)
“…Richard was revealed to be wearing a very short forest-green tunic and boots to the thigh… It really hit me then just how small and thin he was.” (page 59)
“…thick…shoulders” (page 80)
“My costume for the play didn’t look anything like him.” (page 88)
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
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> Call united kingdom
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>
> United kingdom phone card
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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“…dark blue eyes…” (page 9)
“He was a white man, though swarthier than the Salem villagers, and surely less than six feet tall. What impressed Tituba the most was his fur-trimmed gown…” (page 13)
“He was a somewhat lanky, small-figured man who looked about thirty-five… He had a broad forehead in an otherwise narrow face, denim-colored eyes with a hint of gray; a strong, protruding chin; a large nose; and narrow brows. His hair was black… and hung down to his jawline, slanting over his forehead.” (pages 47-48)
“He had a very rich, rolling Yorkshire brogue… I noticed a little dip in his step that was a far cry from the gross limp I affected in the play at school.” (page 48)
“Bent down, he became all forehead and nose.” (page 56)
“…Richard was revealed to be wearing a very short forest-green tunic and boots to the thigh… It really hit me then just how small and thin he was.” (page 59)
“…thick…shoulders” (page 80)
“My costume for the play didn’t look anything like him.” (page 88)
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 20:46:52
--- In , Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@s...>
wrote:
>
> Yars, that's Buckingham? I was way off. I always pictured him as the beautiful-but-
malicious-dandy type.
>
But that doesnt look a contemporary portrait - It looks later to me?
best wishes Eileen
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower delivery Call united kingdom
United kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
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> ---------------------------------
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
wrote:
>
> Yars, that's Buckingham? I was way off. I always pictured him as the beautiful-but-
malicious-dandy type.
>
But that doesnt look a contemporary portrait - It looks later to me?
best wishes Eileen
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower delivery Call united kingdom
United kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
> ---------------------------------
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> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 22:29:36
ah..yes, the mythology of the stinky medieval person.
see:
http://www.hevanet.com/sharan/history/six_crds.html
http://www.psicop-zone.com/dennis/myths.html
and some illuminations of bathing can be found here.
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentation/enlumine/fr/rechexperte_00.htm
put BAIN in sujet and click rechercher
our ancestors were far more sophisticated than our society would have us believe. we've all watched too many movies, and have been "dumbed down" by a culture of ignorance. oooh boy, i'm about to get political..best sign off before i rankle someone's feathers.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
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> Call united kingdom
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>
> United kingdom phone card
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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>
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---------------------------------
see:
http://www.hevanet.com/sharan/history/six_crds.html
http://www.psicop-zone.com/dennis/myths.html
and some illuminations of bathing can be found here.
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentation/enlumine/fr/rechexperte_00.htm
put BAIN in sujet and click rechercher
our ancestors were far more sophisticated than our society would have us believe. we've all watched too many movies, and have been "dumbed down" by a culture of ignorance. oooh boy, i'm about to get political..best sign off before i rankle someone's feathers.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
Here's another one by an artist named of
<http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
impressionist style is an interesting touch.
http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
grandson, I suppose.
You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
all was awry.
fayreroze wrote:
> with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> were "beautiful" regal people?
> you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
>
> personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
>
> i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> famous/notorius people.
>
> btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
>
> patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> personalities very well.
>
> essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> the players could be talented unknowns.
>
> and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
>
> the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> roslyn
>
>
> --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> >
> > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> relating his
> > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> Yorkist colours
> > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> admittedly not
> > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> basically
> > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> struggling and
> > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> in the
> > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> I think
> > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> Nathaniel
> > Parker.
> > ...Kim
> >
> >
> > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> >
> > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> >
> > >--- In , MIchelle
> <groups@m...>
> > >wrote:
> >
> > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > 2001:
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
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> Call united kingdom
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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>
>
>
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 22:58:53
I also think that portrait is not contemporary. It almost looks like
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-10 23:06:33
--- In , William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
>>
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth are not as strong as our
ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you rarely see old skulls
with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the Ancestors' where they
reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from the Mary Rose for
example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were - even amongst the very
poorest.
I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) - the very poor (I should
think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had more than enough to
worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the middle classes/upper
classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with servants (to lug all the hot
water about).
Any one out there know more about this subject??
best wishes Eileen
>
>
> >
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
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rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
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nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth are not as strong as our
ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you rarely see old skulls
with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the Ancestors' where they
reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from the Mary Rose for
example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were - even amongst the very
poorest.
I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) - the very poor (I should
think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had more than enough to
worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the middle classes/upper
classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with servants (to lug all the hot
water about).
Any one out there know more about this subject??
best wishes Eileen
>
>
> >
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-10 23:10:19
Sorry: Was just kidding.
fayre rose wrote:
> ah..yes, the mythology of the stinky medieval person.
>
> see:
> http://www.hevanet.com/sharan/history/six_crds.html
> http://www.psicop-zone.com/dennis/myths.html
>
> and some illuminations of bathing can be found here.
>
> http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentation/enlumine/fr/rechexperte_00.htm
> put BAIN in sujet and click rechercher
>
> our ancestors were far more sophisticated than our society would
> have us believe. we've all watched too many movies, and have been
> "dumbed down" by a culture of ignorance. oooh boy, i'm about to get
> political..best sign off before i rankle someone's feathers.
>
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
> http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
> <http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN>
>
>
> http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
>
> Here's another one by an artist named of
> <http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
> Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
> impressionist style is an interesting touch.
> http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
> <http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>
> http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
> <http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN>
>
> Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
> grandson, I suppose.
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
> eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
> all was awry.
> fayreroze wrote:
>
> > with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> > were "beautiful" regal people?
> > you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> > http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
> >
> > personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> > scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
> >
> > i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> > continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
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fayre rose wrote:
> ah..yes, the mythology of the stinky medieval person.
>
> see:
> http://www.hevanet.com/sharan/history/six_crds.html
> http://www.psicop-zone.com/dennis/myths.html
>
> and some illuminations of bathing can be found here.
>
> http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentation/enlumine/fr/rechexperte_00.htm
> put BAIN in sujet and click rechercher
>
> our ancestors were far more sophisticated than our society would
> have us believe. we've all watched too many movies, and have been
> "dumbed down" by a culture of ignorance. oooh boy, i'm about to get
> political..best sign off before i rankle someone's feathers.
>
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
> http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
> <http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN>
>
>
> http://www.avice.net/humphrystafford1402.htm
>
> Here's another one by an artist named of
> <http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>Narvika
> Bovcon who also did an interesting portrait of Richard. The
> impressionist style is an interesting touch.
> http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg
> <http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckingham.jpg>
> http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/~sspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
> <http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/slike/Buckinghamthumbnail.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www2.arnes.si/%7Esspmvaup/riii/links.htm&h=113&w=79&sz=18&tbnid=oLno5nR0T14J:&tbnh=81&tbnw=56&hl=en&start=241&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D240%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN>
>
> Wonder what Edward IV looked like in his more hedonistic days. Like his
> grandson, I suppose.
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth). Never really got used to the 'no
> eyebrow' look for women either. However, they did breed, so I guess not
> all was awry.
> fayreroze wrote:
>
> > with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> > were "beautiful" regal people?
> > you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> > http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
> >
> > personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> > scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
> >
> > i'd love to see movies strive for more realism rather than have us
> > continue to worship medieval "barbie and ken" images of
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
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>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 00:10:19
Thanks for this link. The actor in the photo is pretty much my mental
picture of Buckingham, even if the reality WAS much more like Peter
Pettigrew! I am certainly guilty of romanticising all the 'characters',
even the 'bad' ones. I find that rather interesting, but I suppose I just
like to look at pretty things, pretty people. I'd never thought of Edward
IV as anything like Russell Crowe, and if we're eliminating beautiful
people, he's definitely out! John Goodman for H8 is great. I like the idea
of Stuart Townsend as Richard, and I'll watch Patrick Stewart in anything.
Kim
>From: William Barber <bbarber@...>
>Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
>http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
>fayreroze wrote:
>
> > with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> > were "beautiful" regal people?
>>you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> > http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
> >
> > personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> > scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
picture of Buckingham, even if the reality WAS much more like Peter
Pettigrew! I am certainly guilty of romanticising all the 'characters',
even the 'bad' ones. I find that rather interesting, but I suppose I just
like to look at pretty things, pretty people. I'd never thought of Edward
IV as anything like Russell Crowe, and if we're eliminating beautiful
people, he's definitely out! John Goodman for H8 is great. I like the idea
of Stuart Townsend as Richard, and I'll watch Patrick Stewart in anything.
Kim
>From: William Barber <bbarber@...>
>Here are some interesting interpretations of Buckingham as 'pretty boy':
>http://images.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcards/rich311.jpg&imgrefurl=http://shakespeare.emory.edu/postcarddisplay.cfm%3Fcardid%3D798&h=413&w=256&sz=43&tbnid=NkorGqnK1PgJ:&tbnh=121&tbnw=75&hl=en&start=122&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDuke%2BBuckingham%26start%3D120%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
>fayreroze wrote:
>
> > with all due respect, why do people think the aristocracy
> > were "beautiful" regal people?
>>you can find a portrait of buckingham here.
> > http://www.avice.net/henrystafford1455.htm
> >
> > personally, he reminds me of the actor who played peter pettigrew aka
> > scabbers the rat in the harry potter movie.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 00:23:49
Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had been a genetic matter though.
Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that just another myth?
I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply contaminated from factories and so on.
It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and blew it.
At least now we have some environmental controls.
Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of drought, about ten years of it now.
Better go, getting too OT.
Helen
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
--- In , William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
>>
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth are not as strong as our
ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you rarely see old skulls
with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the Ancestors' where they
reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from the Mary Rose for
example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were - even amongst the very
poorest.
I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) - the very poor (I should
think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had more than enough to
worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the middle classes/upper
classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with servants (to lug all the hot
water about).
Any one out there know more about this subject??
best wishes Eileen
>
>
> >
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
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> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
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5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
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Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that just another myth?
I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply contaminated from factories and so on.
It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and blew it.
At least now we have some environmental controls.
Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of drought, about ten years of it now.
Better go, getting too OT.
Helen
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
--- In , William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
>>
>
> You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They often
> stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth are not as strong as our
ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you rarely see old skulls
with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the Ancestors' where they
reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from the Mary Rose for
example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were - even amongst the very
poorest.
I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) - the very poor (I should
think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had more than enough to
worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the middle classes/upper
classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with servants (to lug all the hot
water about).
Any one out there know more about this subject??
best wishes Eileen
>
>
> >
> > famous/notorius people.
> >
> > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john goodman
> > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already played a
> > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry viii
> > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> >
> > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an excellent
> > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > personalities very well.
> >
> > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a movie
> > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder of
> > the players could be talented unknowns.
> >
> > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> >
> > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a woodville.
> > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious and
> > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > relating his
> > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > Yorkist colours
> > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > admittedly not
> > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > basically
> > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > struggling and
> > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right thing
> > in the
> > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For Buckingham,
> > I think
> > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > Nathaniel
> > > Parker.
> > > ...Kim
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > >
> > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just picture
> > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey lopped
> > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > >
> > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > <groups@m...>
> > > >wrote:
> > >
> > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > 2001:
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 11:31:59
I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
healthy teeth from poor folk.
BP
P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
--- In , Helen Rowe
<sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
been a genetic matter though.
>
> Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
just another myth?
>
> I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
contaminated from factories and so on.
>
> It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
blew it.
>
> At least now we have some environmental controls.
>
> Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
drought, about ten years of it now.
>
> Better go, getting too OT.
>
> Helen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> --- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
often
> > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
>
>
> I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
are not as strong as our
> ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
rarely see old skulls
> with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
Ancestors' where they
> reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
the Mary Rose for
> example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
even amongst the very
> poorest.
>
> I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
the very poor (I should
> think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
more than enough to
> worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
middle classes/upper
> classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
servants (to lug all the hot
> water about).
>
> Any one out there know more about this subject??
>
> best wishes Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > famous/notorius people.
> > >
> > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
goodman
> > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
played a
> > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
viii
> > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > >
> > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
excellent
> > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > personalities very well.
> > >
> > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
movie
> > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
of
> > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > >
> > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > >
> > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
woodville.
> > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
and
> > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > roslyn
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > relating his
> > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > Yorkist colours
> > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > admittedly not
> > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > basically
> > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > struggling and
> > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
thing
> > > in the
> > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
Buckingham,
> > > I think
> > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > Nathaniel
> > > > Parker.
> > > > ...Kim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > >
> > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
picture
> > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
lopped
> > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > >
> > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > <groups@m...>
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > 2001:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
nited
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+ca
>
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
a4nJ
> _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
2=Unit
>
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
one+
>
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
=suw
> nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
ngdo
>
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
w5=
>
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
-
> jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
ted
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+ca
>
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
azTZ
> rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingd
>
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
&w5
>
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
DG
> hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
d+kin
>
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w
>
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
0Qju
> LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > > <mailto:-
[email protected]?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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> Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
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>
centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
healthy teeth from poor folk.
BP
P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
--- In , Helen Rowe
<sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
>
> Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
been a genetic matter though.
>
> Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
just another myth?
>
> I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
contaminated from factories and so on.
>
> It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
blew it.
>
> At least now we have some environmental controls.
>
> Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
drought, about ten years of it now.
>
> Better go, getting too OT.
>
> Helen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> --- In , William Barber
<bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >
> > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
often
> > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
>
>
> I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
are not as strong as our
> ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
rarely see old skulls
> with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
Ancestors' where they
> reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
the Mary Rose for
> example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
even amongst the very
> poorest.
>
> I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
the very poor (I should
> think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
more than enough to
> worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
middle classes/upper
> classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
servants (to lug all the hot
> water about).
>
> Any one out there know more about this subject??
>
> best wishes Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > famous/notorius people.
> > >
> > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
goodman
> > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
played a
> > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
viii
> > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > >
> > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
excellent
> > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > personalities very well.
> > >
> > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
movie
> > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
of
> > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > >
> > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > >
> > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
woodville.
> > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
and
> > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > roslyn
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > relating his
> > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > Yorkist colours
> > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > admittedly not
> > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > basically
> > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > struggling and
> > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
thing
> > > in the
> > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
Buckingham,
> > > I think
> > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > Nathaniel
> > > > Parker.
> > > > ...Kim
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > >
> > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
picture
> > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
lopped
> > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > >
> > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > <groups@m...>
> > > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > 2001:
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
nited
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+ca
>
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
a4nJ
> _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
2=Unit
>
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
one+
>
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
=suw
> nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
ngdo
>
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
w5=
>
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
-
> jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
ted
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+ca
>
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
azTZ
> rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingd
>
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
&w5
>
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
DG
> hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
d+kin
>
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w
>
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
0Qju
> LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > > <mailto:-
[email protected]?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
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>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 13:13:58
We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is controversial.
So I suppose I can't be too smug.
theblackprussian wrote:
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
>
>
> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> been a genetic matter though.
> >
> > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> just another myth?
> >
> > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> contaminated from factories and so on.
> >
> > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> 2=Unit
> >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
> on the web.
> > > >
> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > <mailto:-
> [email protected]?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
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>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is controversial.
So I suppose I can't be too smug.
theblackprussian wrote:
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
>
>
> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> been a genetic matter though.
> >
> > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> just another myth?
> >
> > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> contaminated from factories and so on.
> >
> > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> 2=Unit
> >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
> on the web.
> > > >
> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > <mailto:-
> [email protected]?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 14:33:09
--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
I think that is correct. Elizabeth l is well known for having both a sweet tooth & black
ones, for which she paid the price for suffering badly from toothache. She would have had
access to whatever took her fancy (Im talking food here) but I dont think it likely the lower
classes would have been able to afford/access sweet things thereby, maybe, having
healthier toothypegs!
As to bathing, Im sure she would have had more than one bath a year after all she had to
live with herself. She was fastidious in other ways, noone to be near her who had poor
hygiene i.e. smelt and no middens at close proximity to where she was staying. Again (I
would have thought) it would have been impractical for the poorer to have baths or even
own such a tub suitable for bathing in but again life must have been so harsh maybe there
were other things to worry about other than being smelly - but of course you dont have to
have a bath to be clean - you can keep perfectly clean with a good wash from a bowl
(heehee I sound like a health & safety inspector!) Up until the 1940/50s many homes did
not have bathrooms (Im talking about the UK here)? - lost of people had a tin bath, once a
week brought in front of the open fire and kept topped up with hot water from the kettle -
Dad went in first followed by the kids (I think if you were last in you didnt linger long
especially if your dad was a coal man) - I dont think anyone smelt more in those days than
they do now.
I must say I find all the minutiae of everyday living in medieval times very interesting -
how the ordinary people lived as well as the middles classes/aristocracy. When I was a
little girl with her head forever in a history book I was absolutely delighted to find out
about how the contents of the chamber pot were thrown out of the windows with a
warning cry of 'garde loo'. How many times were hapless people walking by hit?
Oh dear I think im waffling here - bye for now
Eileen
>
>
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> 2=Unit
> >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
> on the web.
> > > >
> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > <mailto:-
> [email protected]?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
> >
> >
> >
>
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
I think that is correct. Elizabeth l is well known for having both a sweet tooth & black
ones, for which she paid the price for suffering badly from toothache. She would have had
access to whatever took her fancy (Im talking food here) but I dont think it likely the lower
classes would have been able to afford/access sweet things thereby, maybe, having
healthier toothypegs!
As to bathing, Im sure she would have had more than one bath a year after all she had to
live with herself. She was fastidious in other ways, noone to be near her who had poor
hygiene i.e. smelt and no middens at close proximity to where she was staying. Again (I
would have thought) it would have been impractical for the poorer to have baths or even
own such a tub suitable for bathing in but again life must have been so harsh maybe there
were other things to worry about other than being smelly - but of course you dont have to
have a bath to be clean - you can keep perfectly clean with a good wash from a bowl
(heehee I sound like a health & safety inspector!) Up until the 1940/50s many homes did
not have bathrooms (Im talking about the UK here)? - lost of people had a tin bath, once a
week brought in front of the open fire and kept topped up with hot water from the kettle -
Dad went in first followed by the kids (I think if you were last in you didnt linger long
especially if your dad was a coal man) - I dont think anyone smelt more in those days than
they do now.
I must say I find all the minutiae of everyday living in medieval times very interesting -
how the ordinary people lived as well as the middles classes/aristocracy. When I was a
little girl with her head forever in a history book I was absolutely delighted to find out
about how the contents of the chamber pot were thrown out of the windows with a
warning cry of 'garde loo'. How many times were hapless people walking by hit?
Oh dear I think im waffling here - bye for now
Eileen
>
>
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> 2=Unit
> >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
> on the web.
> > > >
> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > <mailto:-
> [email protected]?
> > subject=Unsubscribe>
> > > >
> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >
> > Visit your group "" on the web.
> >
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
> >
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> >
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>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 16:22:03
There is a portrait thought originally to have been 'our' Buckingham (2nd Duke), but is now reckoned to be his son the 3rd Duke, who was executed in 1523 when in his 40s.
This may be the one being discussed here.
Ann
dixonian2004 <sally-turfrey@...> wrote:
I also think that portrait is not contemporary. It almost looks like
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
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This may be the one being discussed here.
Ann
dixonian2004 <sally-turfrey@...> wrote:
I also think that portrait is not contemporary. It almost looks like
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 16:23:14
Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey Howard?
And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
Ann
And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
Ann
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 16:27:13
dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
"Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford the 19c bling-bling.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is controversial.
So I suppose I can't be too smug.
theblackprussian wrote:
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
>
>
> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> been a genetic matter though.
> >
> > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> just another myth?
> >
> > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> contaminated from factories and so on.
> >
> > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> 2=Unit
> >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
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> on the web.
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> of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
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> > Visit your group "" on the web.
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> >
> >
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> > Yahoo! News: Get the latest news via video today!
> >
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
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the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
"Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford the 19c bling-bling.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is controversial.
So I suppose I can't be too smug.
theblackprussian wrote:
> I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> healthy teeth from poor folk.
> BP
>
> P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
>
>
> --- In , Helen Rowe
> <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> been a genetic matter though.
> >
> > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> just another myth?
> >
> > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> contaminated from factories and so on.
> >
> > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> blew it.
> >
> > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> >
> > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> drought, about ten years of it now.
> >
> > Better go, getting too OT.
> >
> > Helen
> >
> > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > >>
> > >
> > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> often
> > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> >
> >
> > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> are not as strong as our
> > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> rarely see old skulls
> > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> Ancestors' where they
> > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> the Mary Rose for
> > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> even amongst the very
> > poorest.
> >
> > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> the very poor (I should
> > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> more than enough to
> > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> middle classes/upper
> > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> servants (to lug all the hot
> > water about).
> >
> > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> >
> > best wishes Eileen
> > >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > >
> > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> goodman
> > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> played a
> > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> viii
> > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > >
> > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> excellent
> > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > personalities very well.
> > > >
> > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> movie
> > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> of
> > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > >
> > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > >
> > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> woodville.
> > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> and
> > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > roslyn
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > relating his
> > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > admittedly not
> > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > basically
> > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > struggling and
> > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> thing
> > > > in the
> > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> Buckingham,
> > > > I think
> > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > Parker.
> > > > > ...Kim
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > >
> > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> picture
> > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> lopped
> > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > >
> > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> nited
> >
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> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> a4nJ
> > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
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> >
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> one+
> >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> =suw
> > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> ngdo
> >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> w5=
> >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> -
> > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> ted
> >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> e+ca
> >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> azTZ
> > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> ingd
> >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> &w5
> >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> DG
> > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> d+kin
> >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w
> >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> 0Qju
> > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
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> > > >
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> --------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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> > Visit your group "" on the web.
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> United kingdom calling card
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
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>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 16:59:54
I remember the older people with gold teeth when I was growing up about
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > nited
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > a4nJ
> > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > 2=Unit
> > >
> > ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > one+
> > >
> > card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > ngdo
> > >
> > m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > w5=
> > >
> > United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > ted
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > ingd
> > >
> > om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > &w5
> > >
> > =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > DG
> > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > d+kin
> > >
> > gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > rd&w
> > >
> > 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > 0Qju
> > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
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>
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > nited
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > a4nJ
> > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > 2=Unit
> > >
> > ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > one+
> > >
> > card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > ngdo
> > >
> > m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > w5=
> > >
> > United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > ted
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > ingd
> > >
> > om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > &w5
> > >
> > =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > DG
> > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > d+kin
> > >
> > gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > rd&w
> > >
> > 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > 0Qju
> > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> > delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
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>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
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>
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 17:04:51
Did I hear that magic word, STAFFORD? The 3rd Duke was executed on 17 May 1521 at the age of 42 (43 if his 1521 birthday had passed).
----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Richard III Movie
There is a portrait thought originally to have been 'our' Buckingham (2nd Duke), but is now reckoned to be his son the 3rd Duke, who was executed in 1523 when in his 40s.
This may be the one being discussed here.
Ann
dixonian2004 <sally-turfrey@...> wrote:
I also think that portrait is not contemporary. It almost looks like
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
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----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2006 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Richard III Movie
There is a portrait thought originally to have been 'our' Buckingham (2nd Duke), but is now reckoned to be his son the 3rd Duke, who was executed in 1523 when in his 40s.
This may be the one being discussed here.
Ann
dixonian2004 <sally-turfrey@...> wrote:
I also think that portrait is not contemporary. It almost looks like
an engraving. Also, the subject seems too old, Buckingham was only in
his late twenties when he died.
Of course, it might be an engraved copy of an original which no longer
exists. Where did all these portraits go to I wonder?
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 17:19:27
--- In , William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
>
> Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
> the old days.
>
Join the club William!
Eileen
> > >
>
> William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> > really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> > into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> > development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> > parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> > of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
> >
> > Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> > masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> > controversial.
> >
> > So I suppose I can't be too smug.
> >
> > theblackprussian wrote:
> >
> > > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > > BP
> > >
> > > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > > been a genetic matter though.
> > > >
> > > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > > just another myth?
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > > >
> > > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > > blew it.
> > > >
> > > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > > >
> > > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > > >
> > > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > > >
> > > > Helen
> > > >
> > > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In , William Barber
> > > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > > often
> > > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > > are not as strong as our
> > > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > > rarely see old skulls
> > > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > > Ancestors' where they
> > > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > > the Mary Rose for
> > > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > > even amongst the very
> > > > poorest.
> > > >
> > > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > > the very poor (I should
> > > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > > more than enough to
> > > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > > middle classes/upper
> > > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > > water about).
> > > >
> > > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > > >
> > > > best wishes Eileen
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > > goodman
> > > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > > played a
> > > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > > viii
> > > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > > excellent
> > > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > > movie
> > > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > > of
> > > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > > woodville.
> > > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > > and
> > > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > > roslyn
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > > relating his
> > > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > > thing
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > > Buckingham,
> > > > > > I think
> > > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > > picture
> > > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > > lopped
> > > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
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> > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
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> > > e+ca
> > > >
> > >
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> > > azTZ
> > > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
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> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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> > > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
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> > > >
> > >
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> > > rd&w
> > > >
> > >
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> > > 0Qju
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
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>
>
>
>
>
> Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
> the old days.
>
Join the club William!
Eileen
> > >
>
> William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> > really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> > into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> > development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> > parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> > of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
> >
> > Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> > masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> > controversial.
> >
> > So I suppose I can't be too smug.
> >
> > theblackprussian wrote:
> >
> > > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > > BP
> > >
> > > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > > been a genetic matter though.
> > > >
> > > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > > just another myth?
> > > >
> > > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > > >
> > > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > > blew it.
> > > >
> > > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > > >
> > > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > > >
> > > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > > >
> > > > Helen
> > > >
> > > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > > --- In , William Barber
> > > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > > often
> > > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > > are not as strong as our
> > > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > > rarely see old skulls
> > > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > > Ancestors' where they
> > > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > > the Mary Rose for
> > > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > > even amongst the very
> > > > poorest.
> > > >
> > > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > > the very poor (I should
> > > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > > more than enough to
> > > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > > middle classes/upper
> > > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > > water about).
> > > >
> > > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > > >
> > > > best wishes Eileen
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > > goodman
> > > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > > played a
> > > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > > viii
> > > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > > excellent
> > > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > > movie
> > > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > > of
> > > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > > woodville.
> > > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > > and
> > > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > > roslyn
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > > relating his
> > > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > > thing
> > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > > Buckingham,
> > > > > > I think
> > > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > > picture
> > > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > > lopped
> > > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > > nited
> > > >
> > >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > e+ca
> > > >
> > >
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > > a4nJ
> > > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > > 2=Unit
> > > >
> > >
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > > one+
> > > >
> > >
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > > =suw
> > > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > > ngdo
> > > >
> > >
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > > w5=
> > > >
> > >
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > > -
> > > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > > ted
> > > >
> > >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > e+ca
> > > >
> > >
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > > azTZ
> > > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > > ingd
> > > >
> > >
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > > &w5
> > > >
> > >
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > > DG
> > > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> > >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > > d+kin
> > > >
> > >
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > > rd&w
> > > >
> > >
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > > 0Qju
> > > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > >
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> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> > > delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> > > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> > > >
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> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
------------------------------------------------------------------------
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+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 17:31:24
I really need to change my moniker on the site. I'm just good old Bill.
eileen wrote:
> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was
> like
> > the old days.
> >
> Join the club William!
>
> Eileen
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices
> are not
> > > really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> > > into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> > > development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures
> of my
> > > parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth'
> phase
> > > of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's
> generation.
> > >
> > > Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> > > masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> > > controversial.
> > >
> > > So I suppose I can't be too smug.
> > >
> > > theblackprussian wrote:
> > >
> > > > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > > > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This
> reached
> > > > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > > > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > > > BP
> > > >
> > > > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > > > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That
> may had
> > > > been a genetic matter though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > > > just another myth?
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities
> after
> > > > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > > > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > > > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > > > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main
> river the
> > > > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > > > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start
> afresh and
> > > > blew it.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > > > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > > > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > > > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > > > >
> > > > > Helen
> > > > >
> > > > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In , William Barber
> > > > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > > > often
> > > > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > > > are not as strong as our
> > > > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > > > rarely see old skulls
> > > > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > > > Ancestors' where they
> > > > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > > > the Mary Rose for
> > > > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > > > even amongst the very
> > > > > poorest.
> > > > >
> > > > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > > > the very poor (I should
> > > > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > > > more than enough to
> > > > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > > > middle classes/upper
> > > > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > > > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > > > water about).
> > > > >
> > > > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > > > >
> > > > > best wishes Eileen
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > > > goodman
> > > > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > > > played a
> > > > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > > > viii
> > > > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald
> men.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > > > excellent
> > > > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors
> in a
> > > > movie
> > > > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the
> remainder
> > > > of
> > > > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > > > woodville.
> > > > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly
> ambitious
> > > > and
> > > > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > > > roslyn
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I
> remember
> > > > > > > relating his
> > > > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read
> (which is
> > > > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see
> N. as a
> > > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > > > thing
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > > > Buckingham,
> > > > > > > I think
> > > > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him
> cast as
> > > > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > > > picture
> > > > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and
> Grey
> > > > lopped
> > > > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > > > nited
> > > > >
> > > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > > e+ca
> > > > >
> > > >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > > > a4nJ
> > > > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > > > 2=Unit
> > > > >
> > > >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > > > one+
> > > > >
> > > >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > > > =suw
> > > > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > > > ngdo
> > > > >
> > > >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > > > w5=
> > > > >
> > > >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > > > -
> > > > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > > > ted
> > > > >
> > > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > > e+ca
> > > > >
> > > >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > > > azTZ
> > > > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > > > ingd
> > > > >
> > > >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > > > &w5
> > > > >
> > > >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > > > DG
> > > > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > > > d+kin
> > > > >
> > > >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > > > rd&w
> > > > >
> > > >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > > > 0Qju
> > > > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
> > > > > >
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> > > > delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card
> United
> > > > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
> > > > >
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> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
> _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
> _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
> > >
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
> nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
> nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
> > >
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
> jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
> jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
> rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
> rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
> > >
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
> hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
> hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
> > >
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > >
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
> LXgqY7yLADVTg
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
> LXgqY7yLADVTg>>
> > >
> > > >
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> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ
> _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
> nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
> jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZ
> rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
> hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
> LXgqY7yLADVTg>
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> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
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>
eileen wrote:
> --- In , William Barber
> <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> >
> > Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was
> like
> > the old days.
> >
> Join the club William!
>
> Eileen
> > > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > William Barber <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > >
> > > We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices
> are not
> > > really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> > > into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> > > development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures
> of my
> > > parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth'
> phase
> > > of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's
> generation.
> > >
> > > Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> > > masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> > > controversial.
> > >
> > > So I suppose I can't be too smug.
> > >
> > > theblackprussian wrote:
> > >
> > > > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > > > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This
> reached
> > > > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > > > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > > > BP
> > > >
> > > > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > > > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > > > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That
> may had
> > > > been a genetic matter though.
> > > > >
> > > > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > > > just another myth?
> > > > >
> > > > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities
> after
> > > > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > > > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > > > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > > > >
> > > > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > > > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main
> river the
> > > > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > > > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start
> afresh and
> > > > blew it.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > > > >
> > > > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > > > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > > > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > > > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > > > >
> > > > > Helen
> > > > >
> > > > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > > > --- In , William Barber
> > > > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > > > often
> > > > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > > > are not as strong as our
> > > > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > > > rarely see old skulls
> > > > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > > > Ancestors' where they
> > > > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > > > the Mary Rose for
> > > > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > > > even amongst the very
> > > > > poorest.
> > > > >
> > > > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > > > the very poor (I should
> > > > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > > > more than enough to
> > > > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > > > middle classes/upper
> > > > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > > > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > > > water about).
> > > > >
> > > > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > > > >
> > > > > best wishes Eileen
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > > > goodman
> > > > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > > > played a
> > > > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > > > viii
> > > > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald
> men.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > > > excellent
> > > > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors
> in a
> > > > movie
> > > > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the
> remainder
> > > > of
> > > > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > > > woodville.
> > > > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly
> ambitious
> > > > and
> > > > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > > > roslyn
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I
> remember
> > > > > > > relating his
> > > > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read
> (which is
> > > > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see
> N. as a
> > > > > > > basically
> > > > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > > > thing
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > > > Buckingham,
> > > > > > > I think
> > > > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him
> cast as
> > > > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > > > picture
> > > > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and
> Grey
> > > > lopped
> > > > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > > > nited
> > > > >
> > > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > > e+ca
> > > > >
> > > >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > > > a4nJ
> > > > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > > > 2=Unit
> > > > >
> > > >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > > > one+
> > > > >
> > > >
> card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > > > =suw
> > > > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > > > ngdo
> > > > >
> > > >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > > > w5=
> > > > >
> > > >
> United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > > > -
> > > > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > > > ted
> > > > >
> > > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > > > e+ca
> > > > >
> > > >
> rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > > > azTZ
> > > > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > > > ingd
> > > > >
> > > >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > > > &w5
> > > > >
> > > >
> =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > > > DG
> > > > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > > >
> > > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > > > d+kin
> > > > >
> > > >
> gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > > > rd&w
> > > > >
> > > >
> 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > > > 0Qju
> > > > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 20:48:06
Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
the story originated.
I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
used tons of the stuff.
drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
the story originated.
I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
used tons of the stuff.
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 20:49:46
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
>
> Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey Howard?
>
> And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
>
> Ann
>
How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push came
to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
lady!)
Eileen
>
>
>
>
> Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey Howard?
>
> And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
>
> Ann
>
How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push came
to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
lady!)
Eileen
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-11 21:11:12
Anything for Tim Piggott-Smith?
eileen wrote:
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can
> act. Jockey Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably
> icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and
> Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them
> appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she
> could act, OR if push came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as
> Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might
> not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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eileen wrote:
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can
> act. Jockey Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably
> icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and
> Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them
> appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she
> could act, OR if push came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as
> Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might
> not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 21:16:34
Whenever I read about medieval banquets I often come across references
to spun sugar confections.
dixonian2004 wrote:
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
to spun sugar confections.
dixonian2004 wrote:
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 21:43:53
well people, i've just returned from a visit to my dentist. i asked if she knew anything about medieval dentistry. not much, she replied, except that they used pig's urine as tooth paste..like double yuck!!
regarding bathing in canada. my father was raised in saskatchewan. in the more rural areas, where water was often short, particularily during the dirty thirties/dust bowl days..the family bath was also laundry day. kids and laundry were tossed in the tub at the same time...and after everyone had had their bath..the really filthy farm work clothes were washed in the family bath water.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
I remember the older people with gold teeth when I was growing up about
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > nited
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > a4nJ
> > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > 2=Unit
> > >
> > ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > one+
> > >
> > card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > ngdo
> > >
> > m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > w5=
> > >
> > United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > ted
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > ingd
> > >
> > om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > &w5
> > >
> > =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > DG
> > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > d+kin
> > >
> > gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > rd&w
> > >
> > 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > 0Qju
> > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
> > delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
> > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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regarding bathing in canada. my father was raised in saskatchewan. in the more rural areas, where water was often short, particularily during the dirty thirties/dust bowl days..the family bath was also laundry day. kids and laundry were tossed in the tub at the same time...and after everyone had had their bath..the really filthy farm work clothes were washed in the family bath water.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
I remember the older people with gold teeth when I was growing up about
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > nited
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > a4nJ
> > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > 2=Unit
> > >
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> > one+
> > >
> > card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > ngdo
> > >
> > m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > w5=
> > >
> > United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > ted
> > >
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> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > ingd
> > >
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> > &w5
> > >
> > =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > DG
> > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
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> > >
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> > rd&w
> > >
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> > 0Qju
> > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-11 22:53:45
Yes, the same in Australia in the twenties and thirties, as I heard from my parents.
Saturday night bath, a tub in the kitchen with in turn dad, mum and then the kids. The water would be topped up by hot water each time. On other days you wash yourself a cloth and basin. Down as far as you can go, up as far as you go and then the rest.
My grandmother and great-aunt were in Service during the twenties so they had the use of a bathroom then. They both said that was Bliss.
One would be just as clean really.
One habit then I wouldn't like was airing your underwear overnight and wearing then again the next day. Just washed once a week. Not for me thanks.
I am always fascinated by this sort of history. The everyday life of people, washing, eating, housework, child rearing, farming etc. For instance how did women deal with menstruation?
Helen
fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
well people, i've just returned from a visit to my dentist. i asked if she knew anything about medieval dentistry. not much, she replied, except that they used pig's urine as tooth paste..like double yuck!!
regarding bathing in canada. my father was raised in saskatchewan. in the more rural areas, where water was often short, particularily during the dirty thirties/dust bowl days..the family bath was also laundry day. kids and laundry were tossed in the tub at the same time...and after everyone had had their bath..the really filthy farm work clothes were washed in the family bath water.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
I remember the older people with gold teeth when I was growing up about
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
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> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
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> > 2=Unit
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> > one+
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> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
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> > >
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> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
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> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
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> > > > > United kingdom vacation
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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Saturday night bath, a tub in the kitchen with in turn dad, mum and then the kids. The water would be topped up by hot water each time. On other days you wash yourself a cloth and basin. Down as far as you can go, up as far as you go and then the rest.
My grandmother and great-aunt were in Service during the twenties so they had the use of a bathroom then. They both said that was Bliss.
One would be just as clean really.
One habit then I wouldn't like was airing your underwear overnight and wearing then again the next day. Just washed once a week. Not for me thanks.
I am always fascinated by this sort of history. The everyday life of people, washing, eating, housework, child rearing, farming etc. For instance how did women deal with menstruation?
Helen
fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
well people, i've just returned from a visit to my dentist. i asked if she knew anything about medieval dentistry. not much, she replied, except that they used pig's urine as tooth paste..like double yuck!!
regarding bathing in canada. my father was raised in saskatchewan. in the more rural areas, where water was often short, particularily during the dirty thirties/dust bowl days..the family bath was also laundry day. kids and laundry were tossed in the tub at the same time...and after everyone had had their bath..the really filthy farm work clothes were washed in the family bath water.
roslyn
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
I remember the older people with gold teeth when I was growing up about
fifty miles north of Toronto.
I should have clarified 'metal mouth' a bit better. I was talking about
fillings. I've got a mouthful of those. As a result of fluoridation, my
two 20+ year old daughters have never had cavities.
I understand that the bottled water fad is responsible for an increase
in cavities among teenagers, since such water does not contain fluorine.
Maybe another urban myth? Who knows?
When we were kids, we sometimes had to share the bathwater, since the
old water heaters weren't always too efficient, and we had to save on
the heating bill. When we were quite little, my sister and I were bathed
in an old tin-plate tub.
Never thought I'd get to the point where I'd talk about what it was like
the old days.
fayre rose wrote:
> dentures and metal mouths have been around for a long time. geo
> washington had wooden chompers..and here's a cute story about my
> gggrandaunt's husband b in 1850 and her step granddaughter..
>
> the story was related to me by a step-cousin about his aunt.
> "Lillian loved to tell stories about her grandfather Wright
> Bailey. The house had a viranda ( I hope that's spelled right). She
> said he would sit out there with her...and she loved to make him
> laugh. She said he had all gold teeth".
>
> i can't say if judge wright needed the teeth, or could just afford
> the 19c bling-bling.
> roslyn
>
> William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> We often forget that today's 'sophisticated' hygienic practices are not
> really that long established. The once-weekly bath was standard until
> into the 1950s or 60s at least. Deodorants are a fairly recent
> development. And dental hygiene has evolved from the full dentures of my
> parents's and grandparents' generation, through the 'metal mouth' phase
> of my generation, to the flouridation phase of my children's generation.
>
> Further, much of what we term 'good hygiene' today, is simply cosmetic
> masking. And a lot of what we purport to be 'good hygiene' is
> controversial.
>
> So I suppose I can't be too smug.
>
> theblackprussian wrote:
>
> > I believe people in the Tudor era had worse teeth than in preceeding
> > centuries due to the import of sugar from the new world. This reached
> > a peak in the 17th century when aristocrats would actually buy
> > healthy teeth from poor folk.
> > BP
> >
> > P.S. Patrick Stewart = Earl of Salisbury
> >
> >
> > --- In , Helen Rowe
> > <sweethelly2003@y...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Henry VII and his grand daughter Elizabeth were said to have bad
> > teeth and should have had the best attention of the day. That may had
> > been a genetic matter though.
> > >
> > > Is it true that Elizabeth only had one bath a year or is that
> > just another myth?
> > >
> > > I suspect that in later centuries, especially in the Cities after
> > industrialisation, people may had come dirtier not out of choice but
> > circumstances. Population congestion, filthy water supply
> > contaminated from factories and so on.
> > >
> > > It is sad to say that only about 30 or so years after European
> > settlement (1830s) of my home Melbourne, Australia the main river the
> > Yarra became vile from factory waste and with it came the usual
> > diseases. Slums came into being. We had a chance to start afresh and
> > blew it.
> > >
> > > At least now we have some environmental controls.
> > >
> > > Still it is easier to keep clean now with running water rather
> > than carrying it from wells and rivers. Though here we may start to
> > become a little dirtier because we have to conserve water because of
> > drought, about ten years of it now.
> > >
> > > Better go, getting too OT.
> > >
> > > Helen
> > >
> > > eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > > --- In , William Barber
> > <bbarber@e...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > You are right about our romanticized view of these people. They
> > often
> > > > stunk and had bad teeth (or no teeth).
> > >
> > >
> > > I dont know about this bad teeth thing - in fact I think our teeth
> > are not as strong as our
> > > ancestors were (something to do with our modern diets maybe) - you
> > rarely see old skulls
> > > with bad teeth. For instance in programmes such as 'Meet the
> > Ancestors' where they
> > > reconstruct the faces of long dead people, or the skeletons from
> > the Mary Rose for
> > > example, I am always taken aback at how strong their teeth were -
> > even amongst the very
> > > poorest.
> > >
> > > I expect the lower classes would have been smelly (lice maybe!) -
> > the very poor (I should
> > > think) would not have many changes of clothes & probably they had
> > more than enough to
> > > worry about with day to day survival but I think it probable the
> > middle classes/upper
> > > classes were clean and bathed regularly especially those with
> > servants (to lug all the hot
> > > water about).
> > >
> > > Any one out there know more about this subject??
> > >
> > > best wishes Eileen
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > famous/notorius people.
> > > > >
> > > > > btw..russel crowe could make a good e4, or perhaps even john
> > goodman
> > > > > of rosanne fame. there's a large hulking man who has already
> > played a
> > > > > king..aka ralph. goodman i believe could do an excellent henry
> > viii
> > > > > too. e4 and h8 were supposed to both be large obese ribald men.
> > > > >
> > > > > patrick steward/t aka jean luc picard from star trek is an
> > excellent
> > > > > shakespearean performer. he could also play one of the elderly
> > > > > personalities very well.
> > > > >
> > > > > essentially, one would only need a few "name brand" actors in a
> > movie
> > > > > about ric iii. they would be the box office draw. the remainder
> > of
> > > > > the players could be talented unknowns.
> > > > >
> > > > > and if you must have a beautiful e. woodville consider natasha
> > > > > henstridge. very "regal" looking and versitile.
> > > > >
> > > > > the woman playing attia in the ROME series could also do a
> > woodville.
> > > > > she's already doing a great job at being a schemingly ambitious
> > and
> > > > > unscrupleous vamp out to "get it all" for her family.
> > > > > roslyn
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In , "Ellies Whim"
> > > > > <ellieswhim@h...> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've always pictured Sean Bean as Northumberland. I remember
> > > > > relating his
> > > > > > Boromir from LOTR to the story of Northumberland wearing the
> > > > > Yorkist colours
> > > > > > under his armour when he died. From what I've read (which is
> > > > > admittedly not
> > > > > > as extensive as most of the people on this list) I see N. as a
> > > > > basically
> > > > > > good man, trying to get ahead within his circumstances, but
> > > > > struggling and
> > > > > > making some questionable choices, and trying to do the right
> > thing
> > > > > in the
> > > > > > end. I think Ciaran Hinds as Warwick is perfect. For
> > Buckingham,
> > > > > I think
> > > > > > I'd choose someone a bit more aristocratically handsome-like
> > > > > Nathaniel
> > > > > > Parker.
> > > > > > ...Kim
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >From: "theblackprussian" <theblackprussian@y...>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Sean Bean is just too common for Edward. I have him cast as
> > > > > > >Richard's chief ruffian Sir Richard Ratcliffe. I can just
> > picture
> > > > > > >him grinning as he has the heads of Vaughan, Rivers and Grey
> > lopped
> > > > > > >off in front of Pontefract castle.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- In , MIchelle
> > > > > <groups@m...>
> > > > > > >wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've posted this before but never got any responses
> > > > > > > > (possibly since my page is SO out of date and has lots
> > > > > > > > of broken links) but these were my casting picks in
> > > > > > > > 2001:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
> > nited
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=W
> > a4nJ
> > > _E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
> > 2=Unit
> > >
> > ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+ph
> > one+
> > >
> > card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig
> > =suw
> > > nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
> > ngdo
> > >
> > m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&
> > w5=
> > >
> > United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r
> > -
> > > jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
> > ted
> > >
> > +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
> > e+ca
> > >
> > rd&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6
> > azTZ
> > > rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
> > ingd
> > >
> > om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card
> > &w5
> > >
> > =United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmU
> > DG
> > > hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> > t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unite
> > d+kin
> > >
> > gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
> > rd&w
> > >
> > 5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe1
> > 0Qju
> > > LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
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> > kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
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> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-12 09:56:48
I'm not sure about Timothy West as Morton - I see him playing a basically benign figure, though perhps he'd enjoy playing a scheming villain. Pigott-Smith could make a good Morton - he is another who can act and is good at sneering.
Ann
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Anything for Tim Piggott-Smith?
eileen wrote:
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can
> act. Jockey Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably
> icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
>
Ann
William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Anything for Tim Piggott-Smith?
eileen wrote:
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can
> act. Jockey Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably
> icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-12 17:46:45
When was this? The only thing I've seen Hinds in was "Phantom of the Opera".
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote: --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
>
> Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey Howard?
>
> And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
>
> Ann
>
How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push came
to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
lady!)
Eileen
>
>
>
---------------------------------
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eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote: --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
>
> Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey Howard?
>
> And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
>
> Ann
>
How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push came
to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
lady!)
Eileen
>
>
>
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-12 17:56:42
>Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
>thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
>Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
>
>Eileen
=======================================
I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself (though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give Anne Neville a quiet strength.
Maria
elena@...
>thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
>Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
>
>Eileen
=======================================
I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself (though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give Anne Neville a quiet strength.
Maria
elena@...
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-12 18:55:00
--- In , Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@s...>
wrote:
>
> When was this? The only thing I've seen Hinds in was "Phantom of the Opera".
1997 - I think he was best of all playing Brian de Bois in Ivanhoe - just 2 weeks ago he
met a gory end as Caesar in BBC production of 'Rome'
I never knew he was in Phantom of the Opera - was this on stage/tv/cinema??
Eileen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote: --- In , A
LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey
Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push
came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
wrote:
>
> When was this? The only thing I've seen Hinds in was "Phantom of the Opera".
1997 - I think he was best of all playing Brian de Bois in Ivanhoe - just 2 weeks ago he
met a gory end as Caesar in BBC production of 'Rome'
I never knew he was in Phantom of the Opera - was this on stage/tv/cinema??
Eileen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote: --- In , A
LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey
Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push
came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Richard III Movie
2006-01-12 21:40:46
It was the movie of the musical. He played Monsieur Firmin, one of the two managers.
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote: --- In , Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@s...>
wrote:
>
> When was this? The only thing I've seen Hinds in was "Phantom of the Opera".
1997 - I think he was best of all playing Brian de Bois in Ivanhoe - just 2 weeks ago he
met a gory end as Caesar in BBC production of 'Rome'
I never knew he was in Phantom of the Opera - was this on stage/tv/cinema??
Eileen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote: --- In , A
LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey
Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push
came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
>
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>
>
---------------------------------
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eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote: --- In , Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@s...>
wrote:
>
> When was this? The only thing I've seen Hinds in was "Phantom of the Opera".
1997 - I think he was best of all playing Brian de Bois in Ivanhoe - just 2 weeks ago he
met a gory end as Caesar in BBC production of 'Rome'
I never knew he was in Phantom of the Opera - was this on stage/tv/cinema??
Eileen
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote: --- In , A
LYON <A.Lyon1@b...> wrote:
> >
> > Can we find a role for Timothy West? He is good on gravitas and can act. Jockey
Howard?
> >
> > And how about Judi Dench as Cecily Neville? She can be suitably icy and formidable.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> How about Timothy appearing as Morton?
>
> Someone suggested Samantha Morton and Ciaran Hinds as Anne Neville and Warwick - I
> thought that was excellent casting - does anyone remember them appearing together as
> Jane Eyre and Rochester in a BBC adaption of Jane Eyre some time ago
>
> Youll have to forgive me for this one (I cannot resist) but, if she could act, OR if push
came
> to shove she could just be herself, how about Nancy Dell Olio as Jacquetta of
> Luxemburg??? (Forum members not familiar with English football might not know this
> lady!)
>
> Eileen
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
---------------------------------
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[Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-12 21:54:18
--- In , Maria <ejbronte@o...> wrote:
>
>>
> I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself
(though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a
BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give
Anne Neville a quiet strength.
>
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen. Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose. Is it because she
and Isobel both died young. Plenty of women did in those day but noone thinks its
because they were wimpish! I would have thought actually that Annes experiences would
have toughed her up - the awful sea journey to Calais with her sister giving birth to a dead
child, Margaret, the mother in law from hell, and finally the episode of the cook shop!
What other Queen of England can have had such a hard experience as that! The heat, the
smells, it dont bear thinking about! We will never know but Im sure she hid herself away
from Clarence rather than Clarence hiding her. Its a shame we will never know the exact
truth about this story as it would throw a lot of light on Annes character.
I just find it sooooooo frustrating we dont know much about Anne.
Eileen
>
>>
> I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself
(though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a
BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give
Anne Neville a quiet strength.
>
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen. Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose. Is it because she
and Isobel both died young. Plenty of women did in those day but noone thinks its
because they were wimpish! I would have thought actually that Annes experiences would
have toughed her up - the awful sea journey to Calais with her sister giving birth to a dead
child, Margaret, the mother in law from hell, and finally the episode of the cook shop!
What other Queen of England can have had such a hard experience as that! The heat, the
smells, it dont bear thinking about! We will never know but Im sure she hid herself away
from Clarence rather than Clarence hiding her. Its a shame we will never know the exact
truth about this story as it would throw a lot of light on Annes character.
I just find it sooooooo frustrating we dont know much about Anne.
Eileen
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 04:59:48
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any
strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be
that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We
Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour
which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read
over the years.
I tried to give her something in my play, too. Seemed to go over pretty
well.
Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
"gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
her.
Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". She
also signs her name with Richard's in a book telling the life story of,
I think, a German saint of rather unconventional behavior.
Maria
elena@...
strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be
that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We
Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour
which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read
over the years.
I tried to give her something in my play, too. Seemed to go over pretty
well.
Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
"gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
her.
Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". She
also signs her name with Richard's in a book telling the life story of,
I think, a German saint of rather unconventional behavior.
Maria
elena@...
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 09:32:26
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen.
This is the romantic view of their marriage, for which there is no evidence whatever.
Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose.
Not necessarily. Being the offspring of a formidable father can leave you with the sense that you are never going to measure up, and what you do get (like being a Duchess and a Queen) you don't really deserve.
Ann
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen.
This is the romantic view of their marriage, for which there is no evidence whatever.
Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose.
Not necessarily. Being the offspring of a formidable father can leave you with the sense that you are never going to measure up, and what you do get (like being a Duchess and a Queen) you don't really deserve.
Ann
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 12:17:42
--- In , Maria T <ejbronte@o...> wrote:
>
>
>
> I tried to give her something in my play, too. Seemed to go over pretty
> well.
>
> Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
> I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
> her.
Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather then her nature?
>
> Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". She
> also signs her name with Richard's in a book telling the life story of,
> I think, a German saint of rather unconventional behavior.
>
Yes, Ive read what Rous said about her - maybe he had met her or, at least seen her, as
he made those lovely faded drawings of her. I also have read somewhere regarding a gift
from Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our beloved consort' -
can anyone remind me what was actually said - lovely stuff!
By the way these wardrobe accounts - how can you get a sight of them - have they been
published in some form or the other?
Eileen
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I tried to give her something in my play, too. Seemed to go over pretty
> well.
>
> Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
> I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
> her.
Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather then her nature?
>
> Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". She
> also signs her name with Richard's in a book telling the life story of,
> I think, a German saint of rather unconventional behavior.
>
Yes, Ive read what Rous said about her - maybe he had met her or, at least seen her, as
he made those lovely faded drawings of her. I also have read somewhere regarding a gift
from Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our beloved consort' -
can anyone remind me what was actually said - lovely stuff!
By the way these wardrobe accounts - how can you get a sight of them - have they been
published in some form or the other?
Eileen
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 12:59:14
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
> Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
> I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
> her.
Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather then her nature?
I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as in 'gentle birth'.
>
> Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". I also have read somewhere regarding a gift from Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our beloved consort'.
In either case is this anything more than conventional language? I am thinking of a standard phrase in Deeds of Gift from one family member to another - 'in consideration of the Donor's natural love and affection for the Donee' - used even in circumstances when relations between the parties are strained to say the least.
Ann
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
> Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an insult, and
> I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he worked on
> her.
Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather then her nature?
I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as in 'gentle birth'.
>
> Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne was "gracious". I also have read somewhere regarding a gift from Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our beloved consort'.
In either case is this anything more than conventional language? I am thinking of a standard phrase in Deeds of Gift from one family member to another - 'in consideration of the Donor's natural love and affection for the Donee' - used even in circumstances when relations between the parties are strained to say the least.
Ann
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 13:45:47
I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of the
marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> > "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an
insult, and
> > I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he
worked on
> > her.
>
> Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather then her nature?
>
> I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
in 'gentle birth'.
> >
> > Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne
was "gracious". I also have read somewhere regarding a gift from
Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our
beloved consort'.
> In either case is this anything more than conventional
language? I am thinking of a standard phrase in Deeds of Gift from
one family member to another - 'in consideration of the Donor's
natural love and affection for the Donee' - used even in
circumstances when relations between the parties are strained to say
the least.
>
> Ann
>
> [email protected]
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of the
marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
>
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
> > Actually, if you look at Shakespeare's Anne, though she's called
> > "gentle", every other word out of her mouth is a curse or an
insult, and
> > I think the Bard was probably a little tongue in cheek as he
worked on
> > her.
>
> Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather then her nature?
>
> I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
in 'gentle birth'.
> >
> > Rous and the Wardrobes documents both say that Anne
was "gracious". I also have read somewhere regarding a gift from
Richard to her - I forget the exact words - something like ' to our
beloved consort'.
> In either case is this anything more than conventional
language? I am thinking of a standard phrase in Deeds of Gift from
one family member to another - 'in consideration of the Donor's
natural love and affection for the Donee' - used even in
circumstances when relations between the parties are strained to say
the least.
>
> Ann
>
> [email protected]
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 14:15:23
This is the first I've heard of this. Can you remember where you saw it? There is a recent English Historical Review article which apparently states that there is good evidence that a dispensation was obtained, though I haven't managed to read it as yet.
Ann
theblackprussian <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of the
marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
Ann
theblackprussian <theblackprussian@...> wrote:
I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of the
marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 17:14:56
here's an era pertinent/fictionalised account of a young noble-born girl and her fate. e4 and ric iii's siblings edmund and margaret have minor roles in the story.
Grisly Grisell via
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/grgr10.txt
i've done a bit of genealogical surf, i'm not finding a "real" grisell d'acre.
roslyn
A LYON <A.Lyon1@...> wrote:
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen.
This is the romantic view of their marriage, for which there is no evidence whatever.
Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose.
Not necessarily. Being the offspring of a formidable father can leave you with the sense that you are never going to measure up, and what you do get (like being a Duchess and a Queen) you don't really deserve.
Ann
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
Grisly Grisell via
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/grgr10.txt
i've done a bit of genealogical surf, i'm not finding a "real" grisell d'acre.
roslyn
A LYON <A.Lyon1@...> wrote:
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen.
This is the romantic view of their marriage, for which there is no evidence whatever.
Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose.
Not necessarily. Being the offspring of a formidable father can leave you with the sense that you are never going to measure up, and what you do get (like being a Duchess and a Queen) you don't really deserve.
Ann
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 21:08:37
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
> Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather
then her nature?
>
> I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
in 'gentle birth'.
Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates and
Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen, was
referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
Katy
wrote:
>
> Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status rather
then her nature?
>
> I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
in 'gentle birth'.
Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates and
Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen, was
referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 21:52:10
I'm not insensitive to people, but we have to bear in mind that if we
went back in time in a time machine or tardis and met some of these
people, it's equally possible we wouldn't like them.
We should stick to the facts. It was openly indicated that Richard
III was displaying a `lascivious' interest in his lovely looking
niece. Her position as heir of the presumably dead Edward V and his
brother would've been a consideration. A bishop referred to
Richard's interest and Richard openly denied his interest. This
doesn't suggest that he was all that enamoured by his ailing and
infertile wife. We shouldn't confuse the real Anne with the
beautiful Clare Bloom of the 1950s film. Marriages as we know these
days often go off the boil. Richard's marriage to Anne Neville was
at least for her lands, which rattled Clarence who greedily wanted
them all. Her previous marriage to the heir of Lancaster – she
wasn't concerned about Richard then – had also annoyed Clarence and
caused him to turn traitor (again) against his Kingmaker father in
law.
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON
<A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather
> then her nature?
> >
> > I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
> in 'gentle birth'.
>
>
> Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates
and
> Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen,
was
> referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
> soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
> rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
>
> Katy
>
went back in time in a time machine or tardis and met some of these
people, it's equally possible we wouldn't like them.
We should stick to the facts. It was openly indicated that Richard
III was displaying a `lascivious' interest in his lovely looking
niece. Her position as heir of the presumably dead Edward V and his
brother would've been a consideration. A bishop referred to
Richard's interest and Richard openly denied his interest. This
doesn't suggest that he was all that enamoured by his ailing and
infertile wife. We shouldn't confuse the real Anne with the
beautiful Clare Bloom of the 1950s film. Marriages as we know these
days often go off the boil. Richard's marriage to Anne Neville was
at least for her lands, which rattled Clarence who greedily wanted
them all. Her previous marriage to the heir of Lancaster – she
wasn't concerned about Richard then – had also annoyed Clarence and
caused him to turn traitor (again) against his Kingmaker father in
law.
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON
<A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather
> then her nature?
> >
> > I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
> in 'gentle birth'.
>
>
> Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates
and
> Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen,
was
> referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
> soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
> rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
>
> Katy
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-13 23:07:56
i suppose it matters as to which historian/writer you want to believe. but here's charles dickens take on richard/anne and elizabeth of york. dickens says ric iii's son was to wed eliz..then died..and that eliz was not a scrupulous young lady.
i'd love to know what dickens' source for this info was.
begin excerpt...
The time of his success was a good time, Richard thought, for summoning a Parliament and getting some money. So, a Parliament was called, and it flattered and fawned upon him as much as he could possibly desire, and declared him to be the rightful King of England, and his only son Edward, then eleven years of age, the next heir to the throne.
Richard knew full well that, let the Parliament say what it would, the Princess Elizabeth was remembered by people as the heiress of the house of York; and having accurate information besides, of its being designed by the conspirators to marry her to Henry of Richmond, he felt that it would much strengthen him and weaken them, to be beforehand with them, and marry her to his son. With this view he went to the Sanctuary at Westminster, where the late King's widow and her daughter still were, and besought them to come to Court: where (he swore by anything and everything) they should be safely and honourably entertained. They came, accordingly, but had scarcely been at Court a month when his son died suddenly - or was poisoned - and his plan was crushed to pieces.
In this extremity, King Richard, always active, thought, 'I must make another plan.' And he made the plan of marrying the Princess Elizabeth himself, although she was his niece. There was one difficulty in the way: his wife, the Queen Anne, was alive. But, he knew (remembering his nephews) how to remove that obstacle, and he made love to the Princess Elizabeth, telling her he felt perfectly confident that the Queen would die in February. The Princess was not a very scrupulous young lady, for, instead of rejecting the murderer of her brothers with scorn and hatred, she openly declared she loved him dearly; and, when February came and the Queen did not die, she expressed her impatient opinion that she was too long about it. However, King Richard was not so far out in his prediction, but, that she died in March - he took good care of that - and then this precious pair hoped to be married. But they were disappointed, for the idea of such a marriage was so unpopular in the country, that
the King's chief counsellors, RATCLIFFE and CATESBY, would by no means undertake to propose it, and the King was even obliged to declare in public that he had never thought of such a thing.
end excerpt
more info at
http://www.classicallibrary.org/dickens/childshistory/chapter25.htm
roslyn
richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:
I'm not insensitive to people, but we have to bear in mind that if we
went back in time in a time machine or tardis and met some of these
people, it's equally possible we wouldn't like them.
We should stick to the facts. It was openly indicated that Richard
III was displaying a `lascivious' interest in his lovely looking
niece. Her position as heir of the presumably dead Edward V and his
brother would've been a consideration. A bishop referred to
Richard's interest and Richard openly denied his interest. This
doesn't suggest that he was all that enamoured by his ailing and
infertile wife. We shouldn't confuse the real Anne with the
beautiful Clare Bloom of the 1950s film. Marriages as we know these
days often go off the boil. Richard's marriage to Anne Neville was
at least for her lands, which rattled Clarence who greedily wanted
them all. Her previous marriage to the heir of Lancaster – she
wasn't concerned about Richard then – had also annoyed Clarence and
caused him to turn traitor (again) against his Kingmaker father in
law.
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON
<A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather
> then her nature?
> >
> > I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
> in 'gentle birth'.
>
>
> Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates
and
> Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen,
was
> referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
> soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
> rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
>
> Katy
>
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i'd love to know what dickens' source for this info was.
begin excerpt...
The time of his success was a good time, Richard thought, for summoning a Parliament and getting some money. So, a Parliament was called, and it flattered and fawned upon him as much as he could possibly desire, and declared him to be the rightful King of England, and his only son Edward, then eleven years of age, the next heir to the throne.
Richard knew full well that, let the Parliament say what it would, the Princess Elizabeth was remembered by people as the heiress of the house of York; and having accurate information besides, of its being designed by the conspirators to marry her to Henry of Richmond, he felt that it would much strengthen him and weaken them, to be beforehand with them, and marry her to his son. With this view he went to the Sanctuary at Westminster, where the late King's widow and her daughter still were, and besought them to come to Court: where (he swore by anything and everything) they should be safely and honourably entertained. They came, accordingly, but had scarcely been at Court a month when his son died suddenly - or was poisoned - and his plan was crushed to pieces.
In this extremity, King Richard, always active, thought, 'I must make another plan.' And he made the plan of marrying the Princess Elizabeth himself, although she was his niece. There was one difficulty in the way: his wife, the Queen Anne, was alive. But, he knew (remembering his nephews) how to remove that obstacle, and he made love to the Princess Elizabeth, telling her he felt perfectly confident that the Queen would die in February. The Princess was not a very scrupulous young lady, for, instead of rejecting the murderer of her brothers with scorn and hatred, she openly declared she loved him dearly; and, when February came and the Queen did not die, she expressed her impatient opinion that she was too long about it. However, King Richard was not so far out in his prediction, but, that she died in March - he took good care of that - and then this precious pair hoped to be married. But they were disappointed, for the idea of such a marriage was so unpopular in the country, that
the King's chief counsellors, RATCLIFFE and CATESBY, would by no means undertake to propose it, and the King was even obliged to declare in public that he had never thought of such a thing.
end excerpt
more info at
http://www.classicallibrary.org/dickens/childshistory/chapter25.htm
roslyn
richardrichardrobert <richardrichardrobert@...> wrote:
I'm not insensitive to people, but we have to bear in mind that if we
went back in time in a time machine or tardis and met some of these
people, it's equally possible we wouldn't like them.
We should stick to the facts. It was openly indicated that Richard
III was displaying a `lascivious' interest in his lovely looking
niece. Her position as heir of the presumably dead Edward V and his
brother would've been a consideration. A bishop referred to
Richard's interest and Richard openly denied his interest. This
doesn't suggest that he was all that enamoured by his ailing and
infertile wife. We shouldn't confuse the real Anne with the
beautiful Clare Bloom of the 1950s film. Marriages as we know these
days often go off the boil. Richard's marriage to Anne Neville was
at least for her lands, which rattled Clarence who greedily wanted
them all. Her previous marriage to the heir of Lancaster – she
wasn't concerned about Richard then – had also annoyed Clarence and
caused him to turn traitor (again) against his Kingmaker father in
law.
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON
<A.Lyon1@b...>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Would 'gentle' have maybe referred more to her breeding/status
rather
> then her nature?
> >
> > I think at that time 'gentle' tended to refer to status - as
> in 'gentle birth'.
>
>
> Rembemer that Robert Brackenbury, one of Richard's close associates
and
> Constable of the Tower at the time the "princes" were last seen,
was
> referred to as "gentle Brackenbury." Since he was an accompished
> soldier, the term probably did not refer to a mild kind nature, but
> rather to his being one of the landed gentry.
>
> Katy
>
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---------------------------------
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-14 09:08:01
One thing I never really understood is if Anne was really married to Edward of Lancaster or not. Was it just a marriage by proxy or was it ever consumed? I'm very confused about this subject and would be grateful if someone explain it to me.
By the way, I tend to believe that the marriage between Richard and Anne was quite an happy one. It's true that we don't have decisive proof that Richard was madly in love with her, but neither we have evidence of the contrary. So, I'm happy with my romantic view of things.
Anyway, the love affair between Richard and Anne was not invented by XX cent. fiction writers. It was suggested for the first time (I believe) in Richard III as Duke of Gloucester and King of England (1844) by Caroline A. Halsted. And I completely recommend that wonderful play, "Richard and Anne" (1955) by the American dramatist Maxwell Anderson, where the ghost of Richard appears on stage during a performance of Shakespeare's Richard III and tells his true story (have you ever read it, Megan?)
Cecilia
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> ha scritto:
--- In , Maria <ejbronte@o...> wrote:
>
>>
> I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself
(though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a
BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give
Anne Neville a quiet strength.
>
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen. Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose. Is it because she
and Isobel both died young. Plenty of women did in those day but noone thinks its
because they were wimpish! I would have thought actually that Annes experiences would
have toughed her up - the awful sea journey to Calais with her sister giving birth to a dead
child, Margaret, the mother in law from hell, and finally the episode of the cook shop!
What other Queen of England can have had such a hard experience as that! The heat, the
smells, it dont bear thinking about! We will never know but Im sure she hid herself away
from Clarence rather than Clarence hiding her. Its a shame we will never know the exact
truth about this story as it would throw a lot of light on Annes character.
I just find it sooooooo frustrating we dont know much about Anne.
Eileen
---------------------------------
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By the way, I tend to believe that the marriage between Richard and Anne was quite an happy one. It's true that we don't have decisive proof that Richard was madly in love with her, but neither we have evidence of the contrary. So, I'm happy with my romantic view of things.
Anyway, the love affair between Richard and Anne was not invented by XX cent. fiction writers. It was suggested for the first time (I believe) in Richard III as Duke of Gloucester and King of England (1844) by Caroline A. Halsted. And I completely recommend that wonderful play, "Richard and Anne" (1955) by the American dramatist Maxwell Anderson, where the ghost of Richard appears on stage during a performance of Shakespeare's Richard III and tells his true story (have you ever read it, Megan?)
Cecilia
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> ha scritto:
--- In , Maria <ejbronte@o...> wrote:
>
>>
> I do. The casting was good, but we had huge problems with the production itself
(though I no longer remember what they were). Hinds made a very nice Wentworth in a
BBC production of "Persuasion". Morton has a nice quality of "spine" which would give
Anne Neville a quiet strength.
>
> Maria
> elena@p...
>
Well it would make a nice change for Anne to be portrayed as having any strength at all as
the perception of Anne ( Im talking about in fiction here) seems to be that she was a bit of
a wilting violet. Why is this? I do not include (my favourite book) We Speak No Treason -
which is beautifully written and I have never read The Sunne In Spendour which I
understand is a good book but numerous other books which I have read over the years.
She was after all, still very young (14 years old)when she was dragged from piller to post/
used as a pawn and married/betrothed to Edward and only 16 years old when she was
married to Richard. Annoyingly nothing remains to let us know what her feelings were but
authors tend to assume she was passive. Maybe she was then - BUT - it does not
necessarily follow that she remained passive all her life. Married to a strong and loving
(yes I know Im a romantic fool but I care not!) husband, a Duchess and finally Queen. Her
mother & sister also come across (again in fiction) as being drippy. I dont know where this
all comes from. Is it because Warwick is thought of as being so strong everyone in his
vincinity pales into insignificance. I would have thought have Warwick as a dad would
have made you feel important/confident not afraid to say boo to a goose. Is it because she
and Isobel both died young. Plenty of women did in those day but noone thinks its
because they were wimpish! I would have thought actually that Annes experiences would
have toughed her up - the awful sea journey to Calais with her sister giving birth to a dead
child, Margaret, the mother in law from hell, and finally the episode of the cook shop!
What other Queen of England can have had such a hard experience as that! The heat, the
smells, it dont bear thinking about! We will never know but Im sure she hid herself away
from Clarence rather than Clarence hiding her. Its a shame we will never know the exact
truth about this story as it would throw a lot of light on Annes character.
I just find it sooooooo frustrating we dont know much about Anne.
Eileen
---------------------------------
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To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-14 10:41:47
Browsing through my books, I can't find the reference to Anne
actually petitioning for divorce, but Ross (Richard III) notes a
later act which settles Anne's lands on Richard for life in the event
of a divorce, provided Richard doesn't remarry. This was after
another act of Parliament had settled the Warwick inheritance on
Clarence and Gloucester in right of their wives rather than by royal
grant. All sources agree that no dispensation was obtained, at any
rate before the marriage, as Richard seems to have rushed the
ceremony through to prevent any intervention by Clarence.
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
> This is the first I've heard of this. Can you remember where you
saw it? There is a recent English Historical Review article which
apparently states that there is good evidence that a dispensation was
obtained, though I haven't managed to read it as yet.
>
> Ann
>
> theblackprussian <theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
> I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
> divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
> misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of
the
> marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
> papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
> drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
> union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
> come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
>
>
>
>
>
actually petitioning for divorce, but Ross (Richard III) notes a
later act which settles Anne's lands on Richard for life in the event
of a divorce, provided Richard doesn't remarry. This was after
another act of Parliament had settled the Warwick inheritance on
Clarence and Gloucester in right of their wives rather than by royal
grant. All sources agree that no dispensation was obtained, at any
rate before the marriage, as Richard seems to have rushed the
ceremony through to prevent any intervention by Clarence.
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@b...>
wrote:
>
> This is the first I've heard of this. Can you remember where you
saw it? There is a recent English Historical Review article which
apparently states that there is good evidence that a dispensation was
obtained, though I haven't managed to read it as yet.
>
> Ann
>
> theblackprussian <theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
> I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
> divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
> misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of
the
> marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
> papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
> drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
> union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
> come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-14 15:09:05
From theblackprussian
Browsing through my books, I can't find the reference to Anne
actually petitioning for divorce, but Ross (Richard III) notes a
later act which settles Anne's lands on Richard for life in the event
of a divorce, provided Richard doesn't remarry. This was after
another act of Parliament had settled the Warwick inheritance on
Clarence and Gloucester in right of their wives rather than by royal
grant. All sources agree that no dispensation was obtained, at any
rate before the marriage, as Richard seems to have rushed the
ceremony through to prevent any intervention by Clarence.
Ah, but all the sources be wrong, according the aforementioned English
Historical Review article, which reveals the following documentation:
".Recent historians inclined to doubt this date noted that the couple
needed a marriage dispensation but no evidence of one was known to exist
at that time, though Ross suggests that they might have married without
obtaining one.41
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN41#FN41>
In fact, they had sought a dispensation to marry from the penitentiary
in early 1472, for it was granted on 22 April that year, and they
probably married shortly afterwards.42
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN42#FN42>
It released them from the impediment of the third and fourth degrees of
affinity, and they also received a littera declaratoria, mandatory for
couples marrying in this combination of degrees. In this case the
enregistered record of the supplication identifies the supplicants more
explicitly than in the two previous cases. Richard is described as duke
of Gloucester, layman of Lincoln diocese. He clearly saw no need to
conceal his identity for political controversy over the marriage had
ceased by the time the dispensation was requested, unlike in our two
previous cases. His betrothed is, however, simply called Anne Neville of
York diocese. In the supplication for her previous marriage she had been
said to be of Salisbury diocese, and a likely reason for the change was
that her father's earldom of Salisbury had passed to Clarence on 25
March 1472, whilst the Neville estates that Richard had acquired by then
lay mainly in Yorkshire.43
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN43#FN43>
"
(The English Historical Review 2005 120(488):1014-1029;
doi:10.1093/ehr/cei244 ).
The article is interesting not only for this nice little revelation but
for the other examples, which include the history of dispensation
registrations for Anne and Edward of Lancaster; Charles the Bold and
Margaret of York; and Henry Tudor with Elizabeth of York.
So dispensation-wise, things were pretty much above-board.
Maria
elena@...
Browsing through my books, I can't find the reference to Anne
actually petitioning for divorce, but Ross (Richard III) notes a
later act which settles Anne's lands on Richard for life in the event
of a divorce, provided Richard doesn't remarry. This was after
another act of Parliament had settled the Warwick inheritance on
Clarence and Gloucester in right of their wives rather than by royal
grant. All sources agree that no dispensation was obtained, at any
rate before the marriage, as Richard seems to have rushed the
ceremony through to prevent any intervention by Clarence.
Ah, but all the sources be wrong, according the aforementioned English
Historical Review article, which reveals the following documentation:
".Recent historians inclined to doubt this date noted that the couple
needed a marriage dispensation but no evidence of one was known to exist
at that time, though Ross suggests that they might have married without
obtaining one.41
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN41#FN41>
In fact, they had sought a dispensation to marry from the penitentiary
in early 1472, for it was granted on 22 April that year, and they
probably married shortly afterwards.42
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN42#FN42>
It released them from the impediment of the third and fourth degrees of
affinity, and they also received a littera declaratoria, mandatory for
couples marrying in this combination of degrees. In this case the
enregistered record of the supplication identifies the supplicants more
explicitly than in the two previous cases. Richard is described as duke
of Gloucester, layman of Lincoln diocese. He clearly saw no need to
conceal his identity for political controversy over the marriage had
ceased by the time the dispensation was requested, unlike in our two
previous cases. His betrothed is, however, simply called Anne Neville of
York diocese. In the supplication for her previous marriage she had been
said to be of Salisbury diocese, and a likely reason for the change was
that her father's earldom of Salisbury had passed to Clarence on 25
March 1472, whilst the Neville estates that Richard had acquired by then
lay mainly in Yorkshire.43
<http://ehr.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/120/488/1014#FN43#FN43>
"
(The English Historical Review 2005 120(488):1014-1029;
doi:10.1093/ehr/cei244 ).
The article is interesting not only for this nice little revelation but
for the other examples, which include the history of dispensation
registrations for Anne and Edward of Lancaster; Charles the Bold and
Margaret of York; and Henry Tudor with Elizabeth of York.
So dispensation-wise, things were pretty much above-board.
Maria
elena@...
Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 00:00:33
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
Marie
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-15 00:10:16
--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
> divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
> misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of
the
> marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
> papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
> drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
> union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
> come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of Parliament
settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their husbands,
that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else. There's
no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
Marie
<theblackprussian@y...> wrote:
>
> I seem to remember reading several references to Anne sueing for
> divorce soon after her marriage to Richard. Is this true, or a
> misinterpretation of the dispute which arose over the legality of
the
> marriage? Since they were cousins, and appear not to have obtained
> papal dispensation for the marriage, I believe there was a document
> drawn up dealing with the ownerships of the lands in case of the
> union being declared void. But did this challenge to the marriage
> come from Anne, or (as seems more likely) Clarence?
The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of Parliament
settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their husbands,
that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else. There's
no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 00:52:38
my grandmother, who was an incredible cook, taught me to put a pinch of sugar in veggies and definitely potatoes. the only time i don't do this is if a diabetic friend or relative is staying for dinner. many a friend has been surprised to see me dip into the sugar canister for that pinch of sugar.
you also wash your hands in cold/ice water before making/working pastry dough. you use real lard vs shortening for lighter flakier pastry, and real butter vs margerine for all baking.
her ancestry was american colonial virginia.
i'll have to try tossing in a pinch of sugar with meat too.
roslyn
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
Marie
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you also wash your hands in cold/ice water before making/working pastry dough. you use real lard vs shortening for lighter flakier pastry, and real butter vs margerine for all baking.
her ancestry was american colonial virginia.
i'll have to try tossing in a pinch of sugar with meat too.
roslyn
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> the story originated.
>
> I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> used tons of the stuff.
In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
Marie
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Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 02:40:56
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
> regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking
for
> quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one).
It
> worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
> but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
My mother was a Southern (US) cook, and she always added a pinch of
sugar to vegetables she was cooking, to bring out the flavor.
To those unfamiliar with US regional cuisine, Southern style is big on
creamed vegetables -- in fact I was about 25 years old before I knew
that spinach could be eaten any way other than cooked limp and stringy,
in cream sauce -- buttermilk biscuits, milk gravies, mashed potatoes,
fried chicken...sorry, have to cut this off now -- made myself hungry!
Katy
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
> regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking
for
> quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one).
It
> worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
> but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
My mother was a Southern (US) cook, and she always added a pinch of
sugar to vegetables she was cooking, to bring out the flavor.
To those unfamiliar with US regional cuisine, Southern style is big on
creamed vegetables -- in fact I was about 25 years old before I knew
that spinach could be eaten any way other than cooked limp and stringy,
in cream sauce -- buttermilk biscuits, milk gravies, mashed potatoes,
fried chicken...sorry, have to cut this off now -- made myself hungry!
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-15 02:42:59
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of
Parliament
> settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their
husbands,
> that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
> each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
> remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
> still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else. There's
> no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
Something must have been behind it, it is so well nailed down.
Perhaps someone (who looked like Clarence?) was trying to force an
annullment on some grounds? Though the proviso is talking about
divorce, not annullment.
Katy
<marie@r...> wrote:
>
> The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of
Parliament
> settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their
husbands,
> that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
> each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
> remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
> still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else. There's
> no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
Something must have been behind it, it is so well nailed down.
Perhaps someone (who looked like Clarence?) was trying to force an
annullment on some grounds? Though the proviso is talking about
divorce, not annullment.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 04:09:42
My grandfather sugared his tomatoes and salted his apples.
fayre rose wrote:
> my grandmother, who was an incredible cook, taught me to put a pinch
> of sugar in veggies and definitely potatoes. the only time i don't do
> this is if a diabetic friend or relative is staying for dinner. many a
> friend has been surprised to see me dip into the sugar canister for
> that pinch of sugar.
>
> you also wash your hands in cold/ice water before making/working
> pastry dough. you use real lard vs shortening for lighter flakier
> pastry, and real butter vs margerine for all baking.
>
> her ancestry was american colonial virginia.
>
> i'll have to try tossing in a pinch of sugar with meat too.
> roslyn
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
> --- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> > drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> > several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> > the story originated.
> >
> > I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> > sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> > used tons of the stuff.
>
> In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
> court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
> is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
> and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
> how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
> the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
> ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
> of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
> many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
> accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
> different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
> details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
> it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
> of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
> pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
> I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
> regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
> quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
> worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
> but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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fayre rose wrote:
> my grandmother, who was an incredible cook, taught me to put a pinch
> of sugar in veggies and definitely potatoes. the only time i don't do
> this is if a diabetic friend or relative is staying for dinner. many a
> friend has been surprised to see me dip into the sugar canister for
> that pinch of sugar.
>
> you also wash your hands in cold/ice water before making/working
> pastry dough. you use real lard vs shortening for lighter flakier
> pastry, and real butter vs margerine for all baking.
>
> her ancestry was american colonial virginia.
>
> i'll have to try tossing in a pinch of sugar with meat too.
> roslyn
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
> --- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Regarding the increased incidence of dental decay as a result of
> > drinking bottled water, I can remember my sister telling me this
> > several years ago. She lived in America and I believe that is where
> > the story originated.
> >
> > I read somewhere that modern day people would find mediaeval food too
> > sweet. Since it appears the only sweetener was honey they must have
> > used tons of the stuff.
>
> In the late Middle Ages sugar was available in limited quantities. The
> court recipes we have call for it in just about everything. The trouble
> is, they don't give measurements for anything (just "a goodly amount"
> and stuff like that) so it is impossible to tell from the recipes alone
> how sweet the dishes were. The modern medieval cookbooks are based on
> the surviving texts but the relative proportions of the different
> ingredients are all guesswork. The best stab I've ever read at how much
> of this or that was probably used was in an article by Mary O'Regan
> many many years ago in the Ricardian. She'd looked into the household
> accounts of the sorts of people cooking this food, at the quantities of
> different spices, sugar, etc, they purchased. I can't remember the
> details, but I did compare it with the modern interpretations I had and
> it seemed to me the author had specified at least double the quantities
> of sugar likely to have been actually used, and only half the amount of
> pepper. I adjusted the recipes accordingly and they tasted much better.
> I still recall a Turkish friend of mine from maany years ago who
> regularly added a teaspoon of sugar to all his meat dishes (cooking for
> quite a few, I might add - that would be a pinch in a meal for one). It
> worked very well - didn't make the dishes sweet and horrible at all,
> but just gave them a more rounded flavour.
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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> Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United kingdom
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>
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>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 05:23:26
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
My mother was a Southern (US) cook, and she always added a pinch of
sugar to vegetables she was cooking, to bring out the flavor.
To those unfamiliar with US regional cuisine, Southern style is big on
creamed vegetables -- in fact I was about 25 years old before I knew
that spinach could be eaten any way other than cooked limp and stringy,
in cream sauce -- buttermilk biscuits, milk gravies, mashed potatoes,
fried chicken...sorry, have to cut this off now -- made myself hungry!
Katy
made me hungry too..unless you're serving creamed peas...the only thing my grandmother made that you couldn't pay or bribe me to eat...:-))
roslyn
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My mother was a Southern (US) cook, and she always added a pinch of
sugar to vegetables she was cooking, to bring out the flavor.
To those unfamiliar with US regional cuisine, Southern style is big on
creamed vegetables -- in fact I was about 25 years old before I knew
that spinach could be eaten any way other than cooked limp and stringy,
in cream sauce -- buttermilk biscuits, milk gravies, mashed potatoes,
fried chicken...sorry, have to cut this off now -- made myself hungry!
Katy
made me hungry too..unless you're serving creamed peas...the only thing my grandmother made that you couldn't pay or bribe me to eat...:-))
roslyn
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-15 10:46:42
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
>
> >
> > The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of
> Parliament
> > settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their
> husbands,
> > that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
> > each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
> > remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
> > still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else.
There's
> > no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
>
>
>
> Something must have been behind it, it is so well nailed down.
> Perhaps someone (who looked like Clarence?) was trying to force an
> annullment on some grounds? Though the proviso is talking about
> divorce, not annullment.
>
> Katy
>
Actually, this sounds more like one of those modern pre-marital
contracts to me.
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@r...> wrote:
>
> >
> > The only source for this is the odd proviso in the Act of
> Parliament
> > settling Anne Beauchamp's lands on her daughters and their
> husbands,
> > that if Richard and Anne were to be divorced but remarried (ie to
> > each other) he could keep the lands, that if they kept trying to
> > remarry he could keep them, and if they couldn't remarry he could
> > still keep them provided he never ever married anyone else.
There's
> > no direct evidence of what lay behind this.
>
>
>
> Something must have been behind it, it is so well nailed down.
> Perhaps someone (who looked like Clarence?) was trying to force an
> annullment on some grounds? Though the proviso is talking about
> divorce, not annullment.
>
> Katy
>
Actually, this sounds more like one of those modern pre-marital
contracts to me.
Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 22:21:23
My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does take
the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very nice.
Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
thinking of some other commodity?
I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses, the
kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in the
nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does take
the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very nice.
Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
thinking of some other commodity?
I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses, the
kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in the
nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-15 22:31:11
Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
pregnancy to become apparent.
whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
pregnancy to become apparent.
Re: Medieval hygiene!
2006-01-15 23:37:16
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
take
> the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
nice.
>
> Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> thinking of some other commodity?
>
> I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
>
> I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
the
> kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
the
> nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
>
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
take
> the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
nice.
>
> Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> thinking of some other commodity?
>
> I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
>
> I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
the
> kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
the
> nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene! and cooking
2006-01-16 00:28:35
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: --- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
take
> the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
nice.
>
> Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> thinking of some other commodity?
>
> I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
>
> I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
the
> kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
the
> nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
>
------------
lets not forget meat. they didn't have nice prepackaged steaks, ground beef, pork chops etc.
they probably hefted about sides of beef/pork/mutton/deer etc.
now with that being said, there is a german old wives tale that menustrating women should not bake as it fails. so baking may have also been a man's job.
i would imagine there were male and female kitchen staff, possibly two areas for cooking...one where they turned the spit and with women doing lighter work. i.e. veg/fruit prep, butter churning.
although they may have used boys apprenticed to become cooks.
but, again, cooking is considered women's work, and our ancestors were a lot hardier than us. i know i grew up on a farm/ranch with no brothers. at age 15 i was packing around 80 lb bags of grain to feed the cattle and horses. i weighed about 120 lbs..and was 5'7" tall..so about the size of medieval man/youth.
also, nudity being a bad thing, is more of a modern concept. the renaissance painters did a lot of nudes in painting/sculpting. the nudity was painted over with draped, flowing cloth as we became a more prudish society.
it was in vogue for women during elizabethan england to have one or both breasts exposed, and lets not forget the men's codspieces.
so..all and all..it is possible that the kitchen staff did work in the nude, but it is also very possible that cooking might have gender specific roles. i.e men doing the really heavy work..i.e carrying full platters of roast pig, while women carried the pitchers of wine and beer.
NOTE to bill..my mother taught me to salt apples too..green ones. a hindi friend was surprised i did this as she had never seen another white person eat apples that way.
she said east indians always salted their apples. my mother's father served in india in the early 1900's. ergo he may have brought this tradition back home..that and a darn good curried chicken recipe.
i'm still trying to figure it out. my mother passed away several decades ago, and her father died when she was 11.
regards
roslyn
---------------------------------
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turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
take
> the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
nice.
>
> Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> thinking of some other commodity?
>
> I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
>
> I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
the
> kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
the
> nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
>
------------
lets not forget meat. they didn't have nice prepackaged steaks, ground beef, pork chops etc.
they probably hefted about sides of beef/pork/mutton/deer etc.
now with that being said, there is a german old wives tale that menustrating women should not bake as it fails. so baking may have also been a man's job.
i would imagine there were male and female kitchen staff, possibly two areas for cooking...one where they turned the spit and with women doing lighter work. i.e. veg/fruit prep, butter churning.
although they may have used boys apprenticed to become cooks.
but, again, cooking is considered women's work, and our ancestors were a lot hardier than us. i know i grew up on a farm/ranch with no brothers. at age 15 i was packing around 80 lb bags of grain to feed the cattle and horses. i weighed about 120 lbs..and was 5'7" tall..so about the size of medieval man/youth.
also, nudity being a bad thing, is more of a modern concept. the renaissance painters did a lot of nudes in painting/sculpting. the nudity was painted over with draped, flowing cloth as we became a more prudish society.
it was in vogue for women during elizabethan england to have one or both breasts exposed, and lets not forget the men's codspieces.
so..all and all..it is possible that the kitchen staff did work in the nude, but it is also very possible that cooking might have gender specific roles. i.e men doing the really heavy work..i.e carrying full platters of roast pig, while women carried the pitchers of wine and beer.
NOTE to bill..my mother taught me to salt apples too..green ones. a hindi friend was surprised i did this as she had never seen another white person eat apples that way.
she said east indians always salted their apples. my mother's father served in india in the early 1900's. ergo he may have brought this tradition back home..that and a darn good curried chicken recipe.
i'm still trying to figure it out. my mother passed away several decades ago, and her father died when she was 11.
regards
roslyn
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Medieval hygiene! and cooking
2006-01-16 00:56:40
My grandfather didn't stop at tomatoes and apples. He slathered real
maple syrup on apple pie. My stepfather always poured a bowl of maple
syrup into which he dunked muffins.
There is a common belief that type 2 diabetes is on the rise. I think
there was always a high incidence of it, but it was simply never diagnosed.
fayre rose wrote:
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: --- In
> , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> > peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> > use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
> take
> > the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> > Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
> nice.
> >
> > Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> > thinking of some other commodity?
> >
> > I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> > when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
> >
> > I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
> the
> > kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
> the
> > nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
>
> I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
> pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
> I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
> >
> ------------
> lets not forget meat. they didn't have nice prepackaged steaks,
> ground beef, pork chops etc.
> they probably hefted about sides of beef/pork/mutton/deer etc.
>
> now with that being said, there is a german old wives tale that
> menustrating women should not bake as it fails. so baking may have
> also been a man's job.
>
> i would imagine there were male and female kitchen staff, possibly
> two areas for cooking...one where they turned the spit and with women
> doing lighter work. i.e. veg/fruit prep, butter churning.
>
> although they may have used boys apprenticed to become cooks.
>
> but, again, cooking is considered women's work, and our ancestors
> were a lot hardier than us. i know i grew up on a farm/ranch with no
> brothers. at age 15 i was packing around 80 lb bags of grain to feed
> the cattle and horses. i weighed about 120 lbs..and was 5'7" tall..so
> about the size of medieval man/youth.
>
> also, nudity being a bad thing, is more of a modern concept. the
> renaissance painters did a lot of nudes in painting/sculpting. the
> nudity was painted over with draped, flowing cloth as we became a more
> prudish society.
>
> it was in vogue for women during elizabethan england to have one or
> both breasts exposed, and lets not forget the men's codspieces.
>
> so..all and all..it is possible that the kitchen staff did work in
> the nude, but it is also very possible that cooking might have gender
> specific roles. i.e men doing the really heavy work..i.e carrying full
> platters of roast pig, while women carried the pitchers of wine and beer.
>
> NOTE to bill..my mother taught me to salt apples too..green ones. a
> hindi friend was surprised i did this as she had never seen another
> white person eat apples that way.
> she said east indians always salted their apples. my mother's father
> served in india in the early 1900's. ergo he may have brought this
> tradition back home..that and a darn good curried chicken recipe.
>
> i'm still trying to figure it out. my mother passed away several
> decades ago, and her father died when she was 11.
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
maple syrup on apple pie. My stepfather always poured a bowl of maple
syrup into which he dunked muffins.
There is a common belief that type 2 diabetes is on the rise. I think
there was always a high incidence of it, but it was simply never diagnosed.
fayre rose wrote:
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: --- In
> , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > My grandmother used to put sugar in fresh peas, because apparently
> > peas are supposed to be sweet. I imagine it evolved from having to
> > use old peas and trying to make them taste younger. Sugar does
> take
> > the edge off a lot of things. Not that tomatoes were around in
> > Richard's day, but I have tried them with sugar too and it's very
> nice.
> >
> > Isn't there mention of sugar in one of the Paston letters, or am I
> > thinking of some other commodity?
> >
> > I used to know someone who fastened elastic bands around her wrists
> > when making pastry, so that her hands would be cold.
> >
> > I have read that in the kitchens of the castles and great houses,
> the
> > kitchen staff were always men because it was so hot they cooked in
> the
> > nude. Has anyone else heard of this? The mind boggles.
>
> I haven't heard that one. I read they were all men because the iron
> pots were so heavy, but you never know. . . .
> I have a big cast iron frying pan and it does weigh a ton.
> >
> ------------
> lets not forget meat. they didn't have nice prepackaged steaks,
> ground beef, pork chops etc.
> they probably hefted about sides of beef/pork/mutton/deer etc.
>
> now with that being said, there is a german old wives tale that
> menustrating women should not bake as it fails. so baking may have
> also been a man's job.
>
> i would imagine there were male and female kitchen staff, possibly
> two areas for cooking...one where they turned the spit and with women
> doing lighter work. i.e. veg/fruit prep, butter churning.
>
> although they may have used boys apprenticed to become cooks.
>
> but, again, cooking is considered women's work, and our ancestors
> were a lot hardier than us. i know i grew up on a farm/ranch with no
> brothers. at age 15 i was packing around 80 lb bags of grain to feed
> the cattle and horses. i weighed about 120 lbs..and was 5'7" tall..so
> about the size of medieval man/youth.
>
> also, nudity being a bad thing, is more of a modern concept. the
> renaissance painters did a lot of nudes in painting/sculpting. the
> nudity was painted over with draped, flowing cloth as we became a more
> prudish society.
>
> it was in vogue for women during elizabethan england to have one or
> both breasts exposed, and lets not forget the men's codspieces.
>
> so..all and all..it is possible that the kitchen staff did work in
> the nude, but it is also very possible that cooking might have gender
> specific roles. i.e men doing the really heavy work..i.e carrying full
> platters of roast pig, while women carried the pitchers of wine and beer.
>
> NOTE to bill..my mother taught me to salt apples too..green ones. a
> hindi friend was surprised i did this as she had never seen another
> white person eat apples that way.
> she said east indians always salted their apples. my mother's father
> served in india in the early 1900's. ergo he may have brought this
> tradition back home..that and a darn good curried chicken recipe.
>
> i'm still trying to figure it out. my mother passed away several
> decades ago, and her father died when she was 11.
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-16 01:09:45
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-16 01:41:59
how very interesting. re: engagement period.
when i first started my genealogical research going into the 19thC. it became very apparent that there were many shotgun weddings and as well as children born before the wedding. some times 3 or 4 before a marriage.
i was told that often couples did not get married right away because they simply could not afford the fee (this is where our term common-in-law marriage comes from)..also, the couple wanted to ensure that they were fertile so they could have a large brood to help work/support the family, and them in their old age.
eventually the couple would get married because the preacher would tell them that he would not do another baptism on any of their children unless they were wed.
i have to now wonder how may "bastardy bonds" in the parishes were because a female was promised marriage/engaged, and then the fellow simply backed out of the agreement...and oops too late there's a bun in the oven.
divorice was also very hard to obtain, it required parliament to sanction it. so, the couple would often just go their separate ways, or even more uniquely, the husband would auction off his wife to the highest and/or only bidder.
women who could not name/supply a father for the illegitimate child were harshly treated too. this started during the puritan era and gained momentum through the victorian and well into the edwardian reign.
women who had illegitimate children could be locked up for sexual insanity. one of my genealogical contacts once met a woman who was locked up in the 20's. it was 1964 when he met her. she was still in an asylum for the insane.. the babies from the "sexually insane" mothers were taken away/put up for adoption.
often this happened to the lass who came from the middle to upper classes it took close to 50 years for it became socially tolerable for common-inlaw and out of wedlock births to be accepted.
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
when i first started my genealogical research going into the 19thC. it became very apparent that there were many shotgun weddings and as well as children born before the wedding. some times 3 or 4 before a marriage.
i was told that often couples did not get married right away because they simply could not afford the fee (this is where our term common-in-law marriage comes from)..also, the couple wanted to ensure that they were fertile so they could have a large brood to help work/support the family, and them in their old age.
eventually the couple would get married because the preacher would tell them that he would not do another baptism on any of their children unless they were wed.
i have to now wonder how may "bastardy bonds" in the parishes were because a female was promised marriage/engaged, and then the fellow simply backed out of the agreement...and oops too late there's a bun in the oven.
divorice was also very hard to obtain, it required parliament to sanction it. so, the couple would often just go their separate ways, or even more uniquely, the husband would auction off his wife to the highest and/or only bidder.
women who could not name/supply a father for the illegitimate child were harshly treated too. this started during the puritan era and gained momentum through the victorian and well into the edwardian reign.
women who had illegitimate children could be locked up for sexual insanity. one of my genealogical contacts once met a woman who was locked up in the 20's. it was 1964 when he met her. she was still in an asylum for the insane.. the babies from the "sexually insane" mothers were taken away/put up for adoption.
often this happened to the lass who came from the middle to upper classes it took close to 50 years for it became socially tolerable for common-inlaw and out of wedlock births to be accepted.
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-16 10:57:03
My paternal grandmother, born in 1885 and the daughter of a brewery manager, married her first husband, the son of a cotton broker, in mid-July 1906, and the first child (of three) was born on 2 October. The exact chain of events is unknown as my grandmother's first marriage was a taboo topic during my father's youth, but it seems quite possible that the unhappy pair (the marriage proved disastrous) were thrown out by their respective parents, and even her parents were both dead and she herself was a widow my grandmother was subjected to a great deal of disapproval from her brothers and sisters. When her younger sister married the architect around 1912, when also pregnant, the chorus of disapproval was such that the pair moved to London to get away from their relations.
That was, I suspect, fairly typical of the times.
fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
women who could not name/supply a father for the illegitimate child were harshly treated too. this started during the puritan era and gained momentum through the victorian and well into the edwardian reign.
women who had illegitimate children could be locked up for sexual insanity. one of my genealogical contacts once met a woman who was locked up in the 20's. it was 1964 when he met her. she was still in an asylum for the insane.. the babies from the "sexually insane" mothers were taken away/put up for adoption.
often this happened to the lass who came from the middle to upper classes it took close to 50 years for it became socially tolerable for common-inlaw and out of wedlock births to be accepted.
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
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That was, I suspect, fairly typical of the times.
fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
women who could not name/supply a father for the illegitimate child were harshly treated too. this started during the puritan era and gained momentum through the victorian and well into the edwardian reign.
women who had illegitimate children could be locked up for sexual insanity. one of my genealogical contacts once met a woman who was locked up in the 20's. it was 1964 when he met her. she was still in an asylum for the insane.. the babies from the "sexually insane" mothers were taken away/put up for adoption.
often this happened to the lass who came from the middle to upper classes it took close to 50 years for it became socially tolerable for common-inlaw and out of wedlock births to be accepted.
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
turfrey@h...> wrote:
>
> Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> pregnancy to become apparent.
>
That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
the man could be sure all the children would be his.
Katy
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
---------------------------------
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Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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---------------------------------
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-16 14:30:33
--- In , oregonkaty <no_reply@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> > whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> > suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> > seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> > important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> > department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> > Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> > with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> > pregnancy to become apparent.
> >
>
> That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
No an actual time line but it must have been a reasonable length of time as, correct me if I
am wrong, I havent checked my books, but if I recall correctly didnt Richard after
Tewkesbury go on campaign against the Scots whilst Anne was at this time living with
Clarence and her sister. On Richards return when he went to seek out Anne at Clarences
house he was told she was not there and noone knew where she was. Did he not then
spend some time searching for her until he found her (according to the Croyland
Chronicle) hidden in the cook shop. He then took her into Sanctuary whilst the arguments
raged between him and Clarence re them marrying. I should have thought this would have
taken quite some time.
Eileen
>
> I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
> to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
> the man could be sure all the children would be his.
>
> Katy
>
>
> --- In , "dixonian2004" <sally-
> turfrey@h...> wrote:
> >
> > Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married, and
> > whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have seen it
> > suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations given
> > seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir was
> > important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> > department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just in case
> > Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days, and
> > with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months for a
> > pregnancy to become apparent.
> >
>
> That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
No an actual time line but it must have been a reasonable length of time as, correct me if I
am wrong, I havent checked my books, but if I recall correctly didnt Richard after
Tewkesbury go on campaign against the Scots whilst Anne was at this time living with
Clarence and her sister. On Richards return when he went to seek out Anne at Clarences
house he was told she was not there and noone knew where she was. Did he not then
spend some time searching for her until he found her (according to the Croyland
Chronicle) hidden in the cook shop. He then took her into Sanctuary whilst the arguments
raged between him and Clarence re them marrying. I should have thought this would have
taken quite some time.
Eileen
>
> I've read that the original rationale behind the engagement period was
> to allow time for a pregnancy to become apparent before the wedding, so
> the man could be sure all the children would be his.
>
> Katy
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-16 16:58:46
--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , "dixonian2004"
<sally-
> > turfrey@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married,
and
> > > whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have
seen it
> > > suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations
given
> > > seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir
was
> > > important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> > > department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just
in case
> > > Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days,
and
> > > with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months
for a
> > > pregnancy to become apparent.
> > >
> >
> > That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
>
> No an actual time line but it must have been a reasonable length of
time as, correct me if I
> am wrong, I havent checked my books, but if I recall correctly
didnt Richard after
> Tewkesbury go on campaign against the Scots whilst Anne was at this
time living with
> Clarence and her sister. On Richards return when he went to seek
out Anne at Clarences
> house he was told she was not there and noone knew where she was.
Did he not then
> spend some time searching for her until he found her (according to
the Croyland
> Chronicle) hidden in the cook shop. He then took her into
Sanctuary whilst the arguments
> raged between him and Clarence re them marrying. I should have
thought this would have
> taken quite some time.
>
> Eileen
They were certainly still unwed in mid February 1472, when the Paston
Letters record that Clarence said Gloucester "could have my lady his
sister-in-law, but they should part no livelode". That was thestart
of LKent, which was a closed season for marriage. Then there was the
wait for the dispensation, which can't have reach them before May.
So Anne was a widow for at least a year, which was considered the
decent interval. I've heard nine months was specified for widows
anyway, to make sure there would be no child born of the previous
husband within the new marriage. Edward's petitioning of Clarence in
February 1472, to let Richard marry Anne, was as it happens nine
months after Tewkesbury.
Marie
<ebatesparrot@y...> wrote:
>
> --- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , "dixonian2004"
<sally-
> > turfrey@h...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Is it known how soon after Tewkesbury Richard and Anne married,
and
> > > whether her marriage to Edward was a proper marriage? I have
seen it
> > > suggested that it was never consummated but the explanations
given
> > > seem less than satisfactory. Surely the provision of an heir
was
> > > important, especially given poor Henry VI's efforts in that
> > > department. Could it be that this document was drawn up just
in case
> > > Anne proved to be pregnant with Edward's child? In those days,
and
> > > with such a young bride, it may well have taken several months
for a
> > > pregnancy to become apparent.
> > >
> >
> > That's an interesting idsa. Anybody got a timeline?
>
> No an actual time line but it must have been a reasonable length of
time as, correct me if I
> am wrong, I havent checked my books, but if I recall correctly
didnt Richard after
> Tewkesbury go on campaign against the Scots whilst Anne was at this
time living with
> Clarence and her sister. On Richards return when he went to seek
out Anne at Clarences
> house he was told she was not there and noone knew where she was.
Did he not then
> spend some time searching for her until he found her (according to
the Croyland
> Chronicle) hidden in the cook shop. He then took her into
Sanctuary whilst the arguments
> raged between him and Clarence re them marrying. I should have
thought this would have
> taken quite some time.
>
> Eileen
They were certainly still unwed in mid February 1472, when the Paston
Letters record that Clarence said Gloucester "could have my lady his
sister-in-law, but they should part no livelode". That was thestart
of LKent, which was a closed season for marriage. Then there was the
wait for the dispensation, which can't have reach them before May.
So Anne was a widow for at least a year, which was considered the
decent interval. I've heard nine months was specified for widows
anyway, to make sure there would be no child born of the previous
husband within the new marriage. Edward's petitioning of Clarence in
February 1472, to let Richard marry Anne, was as it happens nine
months after Tewkesbury.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Anne Neville
2006-01-17 00:13:17
Thanks for all the info. Well, if it wasn't that Anne might have been
pregnant with Edward's child, could it be that since no-one
(allegedly) knew where she was before Richard found her, that this was
a precaution in case she was pregnant with somebody else's child? If
she had been living at a cook shop she would have been very vulnerable.
pregnant with Edward's child, could it be that since no-one
(allegedly) knew where she was before Richard found her, that this was
a precaution in case she was pregnant with somebody else's child? If
she had been living at a cook shop she would have been very vulnerable.
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