Get Out of Hell Free Cards

These could be handy.

http://www.goohf.com/

Sorry. This posting wasn't meant for this forum. I sent it out by
mistake. But if it helped you in any way, then I've fulfilled my mission
in life.

William Barber wrote:

> These could be handy.
>
> http://www.goohf.com/
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Sorry. This posting wasn't meant for this forum. I sent it out by
mistake. But if it helped you in any way, then I've fulfilled my mission
in life.
--------------------------------------------------

[lurk mode OFF]

You have made my day. Thank you.
Jane

[lurk mode ON]

Come to think of it, the medieval church could have sold 'get out of
hell free' cards as a form of indulgence. Actually,that's exactly what
the church did.

William Barber wrote:

> Sorry. This posting wasn't meant for this forum. I sent it out by
> mistake. But if it helped you in any way, then I've fulfilled my mission
> in life.
>
> William Barber wrote:
>
> > These could be handy.
> >
> > http://www.goohf.com/
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the
> web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven.

angela
> > >
> > > http://www.goohf.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=
United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingd
om+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&
s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=
United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingd
om+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&
s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&
w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+ki
ngdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c
=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&
w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+ki
ngdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c
=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone
+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.s
ig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone
+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.s
ig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Un
ited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=
180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Un
ited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=
180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+
kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.
sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+
kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.
sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+p
hone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=18
0&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+p
hone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=18
0&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on the
> > web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> > >
> > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
---------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=
United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingd
om+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&
s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&
w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+ki
ngdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c
=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone
+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.s
ig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Un
ited+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom
+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=
180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+
kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phon
e+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.
sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+p
hone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=18
0&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
the web.
> >
> > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
-------
> >
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "amertzanis"
<amertzanis@y...> wrote:
>
> Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
> then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
> Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
> certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
> confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven.
>
> angela

Absolutely. I was about to post on the same theme. When I was a
child, prayers in my Missal still carried a footnote with number of
days/years indulgence earned for reciting it. I always asked how
people knew:-
a) how many days God was knocking off your time in Purgatory for that
prayer
b) How long you were going to get in Purgatory to start with, so how
many thousands of years you had left.

Never got a straight anwswer. That, and a good many other wonky
answers later, saw me drifting away in what my mother and the parish
priest assured me was a temporary teenage rebellion.

Here I still am, an unspecifiable number of years later.

Marie

PS. Thank small mercies (fairies?? white mice??) for your novena. The
standard thing in Richard's day was a trentall of masses (ie thirty
of them). Many a Catholic facing the Great Beyond made arrangements
for trentalls to be said for them after their death.

PPS. This is quite relevent, actually, to the previous disccusion on
cultural attitudes. Granted that I grew up in a world with other
denominations round about, but I don't remember an age, however
young, when I didn't inside question what I was being told about
religion. I did eventually learn, however, that "expressing your
doubts" got a very negative response (particularly about religion or
sex), so learned not to do it. I always kept my mouth shut visiting
relatives in the west of Ireland, and thought I was the only one who
didn't swallow the whole Catholic/ holy priests caboodle. However,
once the priestly sex scandals started to surface, I was amazed to
find how much anti-clericalism just started to explode out of people.
They'd simply never dared express it before. I think the Middle Ages
must have been a bit like that. Anti-clericalism was perhaps easier
for them - there was quite a lot of criticism of priests' sex lives
stated publicly (including paedophilia). Even Richard wrote to the
clergy telling them to get their act together, but you still didn't
say anything which was not safe doctrinally or you could end up on
the barbecue.
Isn't this to some extent the case in all cultures? The majority
probably swallow the current wisdom (don't most people round the
world even today belong to the religion they were brought up with?),
and the minority learn to keep their mouths shut? I would say it's
still happening.

So what I'm saying is that, when we make allowances for different
cultures, we should bear in mind that some cultural differences are
conditioned into people and become part of them, and some are just
externally imposed via sanctions of one sort or another. So a lot of
intelligent people from different cultures can have more in common
with each other deep down than with other people from their own
culture, simply because these folks are the ones designed by nature
to think outside the box.

Perhaps sometimes we should look at the 15th century and imagine that
some of the people we're studying didn't buy into all the current
prejudices - though most of them did. How do you tell who was what?
Sometimes by what people did or didn't do. Richard was a devout
Catholic, for instance, founded chantries, prayed to saints, but
owned a Wycliff New Testament and wrote a famous letter to the clergy
criticising their morals. Henry VII, for his part, kept using the
Pope to anathematise his enemies, and presided over the burning for
heresy - in London, on his doorstep so to speak, - of an old woman of
eighty. Two different approaches to piety from within the medieval
Caholic church.


>

I grew up in small town Ontario just north of Toronto. I'm of
Methodist/Presbyterian stock (I'm an English/Irish/Scottish mongrel),
and in my early years the church was ever present in all its fire and
brimstone glory. In such towns, the local Roman Catholic church was
located without the town borders, and everybody turned out for the July
12 parade. Protestants and Catholics were not to marry, or to fraternize
overly much.

People took their religion very seriously. Being religious meant
following certain prescriptive behaviours. If you were Catholic, you
followed customary forms and rituals. If you were Protestant, your life
was governed primarily by the old testament's lists of dos and don'ts.
Hellfire was close, and you were certainly damned if you had fun on
Sundays.

A short two generations later, few live that way any more. Religious
attitudes have changed markedly, even in rural areas.

I wonder how quickly religious propensities changed in the later middle
ages. Was Cecily Neville's concept of piety the same as the concepts of
piety one hundred years before or after her time. Do we mean the same
thing by 'piety' in our age as she did in hers?

The zeitgeist continually shifts, sometimes perceptibly; sometimes
imperceptibly.

P.S. I agree that each age had its divergent thinkers. If it didn't
there would be little change.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:

> --- In , "amertzanis"
> <amertzanis@y...> wrote:
> >
> > Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
> > then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
> > Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
> > certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
> > confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven.
> >
> > angela
>
> Absolutely. I was about to post on the same theme. When I was a
> child, prayers in my Missal still carried a footnote with number of
> days/years indulgence earned for reciting it. I always asked how
> people knew:-
> a) how many days God was knocking off your time in Purgatory for that
> prayer
> b) How long you were going to get in Purgatory to start with, so how
> many thousands of years you had left.
>
> Never got a straight anwswer. That, and a good many other wonky
> answers later, saw me drifting away in what my mother and the parish
> priest assured me was a temporary teenage rebellion.
>
> Here I still am, an unspecifiable number of years later.
>
> Marie
>
> PS. Thank small mercies (fairies?? white mice??) for your novena. The
> standard thing in Richard's day was a trentall of masses (ie thirty
> of them). Many a Catholic facing the Great Beyond made arrangements
> for trentalls to be said for them after their death.
>
> PPS. This is quite relevent, actually, to the previous disccusion on
> cultural attitudes. Granted that I grew up in a world with other
> denominations round about, but I don't remember an age, however
> young, when I didn't inside question what I was being told about
> religion. I did eventually learn, however, that "expressing your
> doubts" got a very negative response (particularly about religion or
> sex), so learned not to do it. I always kept my mouth shut visiting
> relatives in the west of Ireland, and thought I was the only one who
> didn't swallow the whole Catholic/ holy priests caboodle. However,
> once the priestly sex scandals started to surface, I was amazed to
> find how much anti-clericalism just started to explode out of people.
> They'd simply never dared express it before. I think the Middle Ages
> must have been a bit like that. Anti-clericalism was perhaps easier
> for them - there was quite a lot of criticism of priests' sex lives
> stated publicly (including paedophilia). Even Richard wrote to the
> clergy telling them to get their act together, but you still didn't
> say anything which was not safe doctrinally or you could end up on
> the barbecue.
> Isn't this to some extent the case in all cultures? The majority
> probably swallow the current wisdom (don't most people round the
> world even today belong to the religion they were brought up with?),
> and the minority learn to keep their mouths shut? I would say it's
> still happening.
>
> So what I'm saying is that, when we make allowances for different
> cultures, we should bear in mind that some cultural differences are
> conditioned into people and become part of them, and some are just
> externally imposed via sanctions of one sort or another. So a lot of
> intelligent people from different cultures can have more in common
> with each other deep down than with other people from their own
> culture, simply because these folks are the ones designed by nature
> to think outside the box.
>
> Perhaps sometimes we should look at the 15th century and imagine that
> some of the people we're studying didn't buy into all the current
> prejudices - though most of them did. How do you tell who was what?
> Sometimes by what people did or didn't do. Richard was a devout
> Catholic, for instance, founded chantries, prayed to saints, but
> owned a Wycliff New Testament and wrote a famous letter to the clergy
> criticising their morals. Henry VII, for his part, kept using the
> Pope to anathematise his enemies, and presided over the burning for
> heresy - in London, on his doorstep so to speak, - of an old woman of
> eighty. Two different approaches to piety from within the medieval
> Caholic church.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven. <

>angela<

Novenas, or series of prayers, following confession, are a form of penance or
reparation for the offenses committed and a sign of sincerity of the
repentance - like returning stolen goods to the owner or offering some service in
return. The thought is that it is better to face the offense here rather than in
the afterlife. The people of Richard's time established the chantries, or
requested services, on behalf of the souls of love ones to assist them as above.
There were abuses and misunderstandings as there is in everything and have been
so acknowledged.
My two cents.
h
Regards,
Virginia

--- In , fairerichard3@a...
wrote:
>
> >Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
> then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
> Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
> certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
> confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven. <
>
> >angela<
>
> Novenas, or series of prayers, following confession, are a form of
penance or
> reparation for the offenses committed and a sign of sincerity of
the
> repentance - like returning stolen goods to the owner or offering
some service in
> return. The thought is that it is better to face the offense here
rather than in
> the afterlife. The people of Richard's time established the
chantries, or
> requested services, on behalf of the souls of love ones to assist
them as above.
> There were abuses and misunderstandings as there is in everything
and have been
> so acknowledged.
> My two cents.
> h
> Regards,
> Virginia
>
>
>

I'm just back because I think I probably expressed myself badly in my
last post. It's not the idea of prayers in reparation that bothers me
(or did then), but the exact count of years off Purgatory stated in
black and white in the prayer books. If you asked you would be told
it was only to give you an idea. Well, how long do you get in
Purgatory? Oh, hundreds, thousands of years. How does anyone know?
Ummm. . .
I had the idea then, and still do, that the Catholic Church has been
hijacked by people with very strange literal brains. For me all that
got in the way of spirituality.
I suppose I'd better come clean and admit I have certain grudge
against the Catholic Church for its mind games - it took me a while
when I stopped going to Mass to really believe I wouldn't be struck
down. And it caused my mother years of grief and anxiety thinking
she'd failed and I would possibly burn in Hell for all eternity. I
think that's probably the experience of a lot of ex-Catholics of my
generation or older.
Having said that, there are things I loved about it - a lot of the
symbolism, for instance. If one were only allowed to take it on that
level.
And it was unfair of me to suggest rejecting one's birth faith is a
sign of intelligence. I was groping for the right idea. It's not so
much a matter of that, perhaps, as the innate tendency to question
received wisdom. And of course the birth religion will just happen in
a lot of cases to suit the individual's personality. For me bits of
it did, but not the demand that I accept everything as literal fact,
and not the liturgy. One of my problems is that I don't handle
repetition very well, so going to Mass every week for years from the
age of two or three sent me nearly screaming mad. Perhaps I'm biased
because I think, well if I wondered about it when I was small despite
being surrounded by Christians of one denomination or another,
perhaps other people did. Nobody alive had ever been to Heaven, you
see. . . . Having said that, as a young child I believed implicitly
in fairies. Perhaps they suited me better.

Most people will always believe what they're brought up to believe,
but there will always be those who don't. There seem to have been a
few minority religious outlets in England in the 15th century - more
or less dangerous: lollardy, alchemy, and who knows what else. I
think I mentioned before that I see the loss of Jerusalem and the
Black Death as having shaken the Age of Faith to its roots. People
were grasping to make fresh sense of Christianity, whether by blaming
their sins for it all going wrong, blaming the Catholic Church for
having gone astray, daydreaming of retaking Jerusalem, awaiting
another stab at the millenium, or whatever. I do think you can
discern slightly different types of devout Catholic in 15h century
England.

The real point I was making is that, with politics as with religion,
you can't assume that people liked a situation they participated in
just because they didn't say otherwise. You can, perhaps, assume it
though, if they participated with particular gusto, or when the
opportunity arises to switch camps and it doesn't happen. All more
thoughts about understanding those inscrutable medievals.

Marie

PS. Yes, isn't it a fact that over a couple of generations the
cultural attitudes of our own society have changed drastically. For a
lot of us, we inhabit a mental world quite different from the one we
grew up with. And the thing I've observed is that all those
apparently bedrock things that shape our attitudes, even our
expectations or otherwise of immortality, don't define us in the end.
Good and evil, love, hope and despair are still the same.


>

--- In , fairerichard3@a... wrote:

>
> Novenas, or series of prayers, following confession, are a form of
penance or
> reparation for the offenses committed and a sign of sincerity of the
> repentance - like returning stolen goods to the owner or offering
some service in
> return. The thought is that it is better to face the offense here
rather than in
> the afterlife. The people of Richard's time established the
chantries, or
> requested services, on behalf of the souls of love ones to assist
them as above.


By the way, I found it interesting if enigmatic that John More, father
of the sainted Thomas, left money in his will for prayers for the soul
of Edward IV, but none for Henry VII or VIII, under whom he had
prospered. (He died before his son's trouble with Henry the Serial
Monogamist.)

Katy

I'm Protestant. It was hard to walk away from the teachings of my church
too. I think that, no matter the religion or sect of a religion, there
are those who have been imbued with the tenets of those religions or
sects who are uncomfortable with them.

Most of my siblings still have strong church connections, and, until
recently, my mother constantly hit me with guilt trips about not
attending church.

Glad they no longer have laws that make church attendance mandatory.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:

> --- In , fairerichard3@a...
> wrote:
> >
> > >Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
> > then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
> > Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
> > certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
> > confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven. <
> >
> > >angela<
> >
> > Novenas, or series of prayers, following confession, are a form of
> penance or
> > reparation for the offenses committed and a sign of sincerity of
> the
> > repentance - like returning stolen goods to the owner or offering
> some service in
> > return. The thought is that it is better to face the offense here
> rather than in
> > the afterlife. The people of Richard's time established the
> chantries, or
> > requested services, on behalf of the souls of love ones to assist
> them as above.
> > There were abuses and misunderstandings as there is in everything
> and have been
> > so acknowledged.
> > My two cents.
> > h
> > Regards,
> > Virginia
> >
> >
> >
>
> I'm just back because I think I probably expressed myself badly in my
> last post. It's not the idea of prayers in reparation that bothers me
> (or did then), but the exact count of years off Purgatory stated in
> black and white in the prayer books. If you asked you would be told
> it was only to give you an idea. Well, how long do you get in
> Purgatory? Oh, hundreds, thousands of years. How does anyone know?
> Ummm. . .
> I had the idea then, and still do, that the Catholic Church has been
> hijacked by people with very strange literal brains. For me all that
> got in the way of spirituality.
> I suppose I'd better come clean and admit I have certain grudge
> against the Catholic Church for its mind games - it took me a while
> when I stopped going to Mass to really believe I wouldn't be struck
> down. And it caused my mother years of grief and anxiety thinking
> she'd failed and I would possibly burn in Hell for all eternity. I
> think that's probably the experience of a lot of ex-Catholics of my
> generation or older.
> Having said that, there are things I loved about it - a lot of the
> symbolism, for instance. If one were only allowed to take it on that
> level.
> And it was unfair of me to suggest rejecting one's birth faith is a
> sign of intelligence. I was groping for the right idea. It's not so
> much a matter of that, perhaps, as the innate tendency to question
> received wisdom. And of course the birth religion will just happen in
> a lot of cases to suit the individual's personality. For me bits of
> it did, but not the demand that I accept everything as literal fact,
> and not the liturgy. One of my problems is that I don't handle
> repetition very well, so going to Mass every week for years from the
> age of two or three sent me nearly screaming mad. Perhaps I'm biased
> because I think, well if I wondered about it when I was small despite
> being surrounded by Christians of one denomination or another,
> perhaps other people did. Nobody alive had ever been to Heaven, you
> see. . . . Having said that, as a young child I believed implicitly
> in fairies. Perhaps they suited me better.
>
> Most people will always believe what they're brought up to believe,
> but there will always be those who don't. There seem to have been a
> few minority religious outlets in England in the 15th century - more
> or less dangerous: lollardy, alchemy, and who knows what else. I
> think I mentioned before that I see the loss of Jerusalem and the
> Black Death as having shaken the Age of Faith to its roots. People
> were grasping to make fresh sense of Christianity, whether by blaming
> their sins for it all going wrong, blaming the Catholic Church for
> having gone astray, daydreaming of retaking Jerusalem, awaiting
> another stab at the millenium, or whatever. I do think you can
> discern slightly different types of devout Catholic in 15h century
> England.
>
> The real point I was making is that, with politics as with religion,
> you can't assume that people liked a situation they participated in
> just because they didn't say otherwise. You can, perhaps, assume it
> though, if they participated with particular gusto, or when the
> opportunity arises to switch camps and it doesn't happen. All more
> thoughts about understanding those inscrutable medievals.
>
> Marie
>
> PS. Yes, isn't it a fact that over a couple of generations the
> cultural attitudes of our own society have changed drastically. For a
> lot of us, we inhabit a mental world quite different from the one we
> grew up with. And the thing I've observed is that all those
> apparently bedrock things that shape our attitudes, even our
> expectations or otherwise of immortality, don't define us in the end.
> Good and evil, love, hope and despair are still the same.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hi,

Does anybody have any Medieval recipes for sweetmeats, sugar comfits, spiced wine - anything from the Ricardian / early Tudor eras?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Sheri

William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
I'm Protestant. It was hard to walk away from the teachings of my church
too. I think that, no matter the religion or sect of a religion, there
are those who have been imbued with the tenets of those religions or
sects who are uncomfortable with them.

Most of my siblings still have strong church connections, and, until
recently, my mother constantly hit me with guilt trips about not
attending church.

Glad they no longer have laws that make church attendance mandatory.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:

> --- In , fairerichard3@a...
> wrote:
> >
> > >Actually they still do. I was brought up god fearing catholic and
> > then was told that of the "get into Heaven free" card of the
> > Novena. I can't remember exactly what it is..Nine masses at a
> > certain time of nine consecutive months immediately preceded by
> > confession and you will be assured a ticket to Heaven. <
> >
> > >angela<
> >
> > Novenas, or series of prayers, following confession, are a form of
> penance or
> > reparation for the offenses committed and a sign of sincerity of
> the
> > repentance - like returning stolen goods to the owner or offering
> some service in
> > return. The thought is that it is better to face the offense here
> rather than in
> > the afterlife. The people of Richard's time established the
> chantries, or
> > requested services, on behalf of the souls of love ones to assist
> them as above.
> > There were abuses and misunderstandings as there is in everything
> and have been
> > so acknowledged.
> > My two cents.
> > h
> > Regards,
> > Virginia
> >
> >
> >
>
> I'm just back because I think I probably expressed myself badly in my
> last post. It's not the idea of prayers in reparation that bothers me
> (or did then), but the exact count of years off Purgatory stated in
> black and white in the prayer books. If you asked you would be told
> it was only to give you an idea. Well, how long do you get in
> Purgatory? Oh, hundreds, thousands of years. How does anyone know?
> Ummm. . .
> I had the idea then, and still do, that the Catholic Church has been
> hijacked by people with very strange literal brains. For me all that
> got in the way of spirituality.
> I suppose I'd better come clean and admit I have certain grudge
> against the Catholic Church for its mind games - it took me a while
> when I stopped going to Mass to really believe I wouldn't be struck
> down. And it caused my mother years of grief and anxiety thinking
> she'd failed and I would possibly burn in Hell for all eternity. I
> think that's probably the experience of a lot of ex-Catholics of my
> generation or older.
> Having said that, there are things I loved about it - a lot of the
> symbolism, for instance. If one were only allowed to take it on that
> level.
> And it was unfair of me to suggest rejecting one's birth faith is a
> sign of intelligence. I was groping for the right idea. It's not so
> much a matter of that, perhaps, as the innate tendency to question
> received wisdom. And of course the birth religion will just happen in
> a lot of cases to suit the individual's personality. For me bits of
> it did, but not the demand that I accept everything as literal fact,
> and not the liturgy. One of my problems is that I don't handle
> repetition very well, so going to Mass every week for years from the
> age of two or three sent me nearly screaming mad. Perhaps I'm biased
> because I think, well if I wondered about it when I was small despite
> being surrounded by Christians of one denomination or another,
> perhaps other people did. Nobody alive had ever been to Heaven, you
> see. . . . Having said that, as a young child I believed implicitly
> in fairies. Perhaps they suited me better.
>
> Most people will always believe what they're brought up to believe,
> but there will always be those who don't. There seem to have been a
> few minority religious outlets in England in the 15th century - more
> or less dangerous: lollardy, alchemy, and who knows what else. I
> think I mentioned before that I see the loss of Jerusalem and the
> Black Death as having shaken the Age of Faith to its roots. People
> were grasping to make fresh sense of Christianity, whether by blaming
> their sins for it all going wrong, blaming the Catholic Church for
> having gone astray, daydreaming of retaking Jerusalem, awaiting
> another stab at the millenium, or whatever. I do think you can
> discern slightly different types of devout Catholic in 15h century
> England.
>
> The real point I was making is that, with politics as with religion,
> you can't assume that people liked a situation they participated in
> just because they didn't say otherwise. You can, perhaps, assume it
> though, if they participated with particular gusto, or when the
> opportunity arises to switch camps and it doesn't happen. All more
> thoughts about understanding those inscrutable medievals.
>
> Marie
>
> PS. Yes, isn't it a fact that over a couple of generations the
> cultural attitudes of our own society have changed drastically. For a
> lot of us, we inhabit a mental world quite different from the one we
> grew up with. And the thing I've observed is that all those
> apparently bedrock things that shape our attitudes, even our
> expectations or otherwise of immortality, don't define us in the end.
> Good and evil, love, hope and despair are still the same.
>
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>







---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS


Visit your group "" on the web.

To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


---------------------------------