Alternative history

This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting to discuss further.

Here are some of the options:

*Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
*If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
*If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward V's throne, controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
*If Edward of Middleham had survived

All theories or posits are welcome!

call me a stick in the mud, but the only one of your posits i see as to having any historical value is the one where richard remains protector of the princes.

information shared/divulged could help provide a better insight into who/what kind of person richard was.

personally, i think there is loads of fantasy about richard and his times, that we don't need to add to it.

others might find it fun to explore wishful thinking, but i'd rather get to the facts...history itself is exciting and intriguing.

we don't need to invent it..we just have to dig it up.

one of my tyrrell research connects just sent me this url. i've not checked it yet, but she does say that some of the names i'm researching can be found with in...so i'm sharing the url..because more of us seriously digging/looking..we might eventually hit that diamond that reveals all or at least another solid piece in the puzzle..
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/
roslyn..off to explore the url

p.s. i watched the third part of the secrets of the inquistion last night, it replays again today..bill.

anyhow, i had a thought while watching the program. we have the english, french and dutch chroniclers who mention richard/princes et al. are there spanish/italian, german, etc chronicles that may also record carry further hints clues?

the murder of royal blood would be of significant importance to the assorted royal houses throughout eurrope.

ergo..have we missed chronicles..or am i just too new to this era's "historical" vs "genealogical" research which i've been doing for the last decade to know of the other chronicles?

if so, could some one please share the known european chronicles info has been found in.
thanks
r

Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@...> wrote:
This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting to discuss further.

Here are some of the options:

*Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
*If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
*If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward V's throne, controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
*If Edward of Middleham had survived

All theories or posits are welcome!






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--- In , Megan Lerseth <megan_phntmgrl@...>
wrote:
>
> This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting to discuss further.
>
> Here are some of the options:
>
> *Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
> *If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
> *If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward V's throne,
controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
> *If Edward of Middleham had survived
>
> All theories or posits are welcome!
>

Well its only a little bit of fun really & obviously we will never know but one of the things I
have wondered:

Did the fact that Richard had lost both his wife and son both very recently - that must
have had some impact on his mind set - if they had been alive (or even one of them) at
the time of Bosworth would it have made any difference - maybe he would not have made
that last gallant but futile charge. Was he suffereing from some type of depression. Did
he have a death wish? Did he no longer really care if he lived or died? I just wonder if it
would have made a difference to his thinking. After all just because you lose a battle does
not mean you lose the war. His brother had suffered set backs and came back from it. Of
course it hardly matters now but I cant help but wonder.
Eileen
>
>
>

I think you have it right. At some point you a person in his situation
would simply collapse from exhaustion. I think he knew, when he charged
down the hill, that there was no way he could walk away form Bosworth.
He was advised to escape, but he would have a hard time hiding. Best try
an all-or-nothing venture. At worst, he'd be remembered for his valour.

eileen wrote:

> --- In , Megan Lerseth
> <megan_phntmgrl@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting
> to discuss further.
> >
> > Here are some of the options:
> >
> > *Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
> > *If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
> > *If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward
> V's throne,
> controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
> > *If Edward of Middleham had survived
> >
> > All theories or posits are welcome!
> >
>
> Well its only a little bit of fun really & obviously we will never
> know but one of the things I
> have wondered:
>
> Did the fact that Richard had lost both his wife and son both very
> recently - that must
> have had some impact on his mind set - if they had been alive (or
> even one of them) at
> the time of Bosworth would it have made any difference - maybe he
> would not have made
> that last gallant but futile charge. Was he suffereing from some type
> of depression. Did
> he have a death wish? Did he no longer really care if he lived or
> died? I just wonder if it
> would have made a difference to his thinking. After all just because
> you lose a battle does
> not mean you lose the war. His brother had suffered set backs and
> came back from it. Of
> course it hardly matters now but I cant help but wonder.
> Eileen
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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--- In , William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> I think you have it right. At some point you a person in his situation
> would simply collapse from exhaustion. I think he knew, when he charged
> down the hill, that there was no way he could walk away form Bosworth.
> He was advised to escape, but he would have a hard time hiding. Best try
> an all-or-nothing venture. At worst, he'd be remembered for his valour.

...............

He certainly will, Bill. Ouch! it makes me feel so bloody sad - strange how someone's
death/events of over 500 years ago can have this effect.

Eileen
>
> eileen wrote:
>
> > --- In , Megan Lerseth
> > <megan_phntmgrl@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting
> > to discuss further.
> > >
> > > Here are some of the options:
> > >
> > > *Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
> > > *If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
> > > *If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward
> > V's throne,
> > controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
> > > *If Edward of Middleham had survived
> > >
> > > All theories or posits are welcome!
> > >
> >
> > Well its only a little bit of fun really & obviously we will never
> > know but one of the things I
> > have wondered:
> >
> > Did the fact that Richard had lost both his wife and son both very
> > recently - that must
> > have had some impact on his mind set - if they had been alive (or
> > even one of them) at
> > the time of Bosworth would it have made any difference - maybe he
> > would not have made
> > that last gallant but futile charge. Was he suffereing from some type
> > of depression. Did
> > he have a death wish? Did he no longer really care if he lived or
> > died? I just wonder if it
> > would have made a difference to his thinking. After all just because
> > you lose a battle does
> > not mean you lose the war. His brother had suffered set backs and
> > came back from it. Of
> > course it hardly matters now but I cant help but wonder.
> > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
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jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
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rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
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LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
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subject=Unsubscribe>
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>
>
>
>

I know exactly what you mean. August 22nd of last year was hard for me- intensified by the fact that I'm bipolar.

eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote: --- In , William Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> I think you have it right. At some point you a person in his situation
> would simply collapse from exhaustion. I think he knew, when he charged
> down the hill, that there was no way he could walk away form Bosworth.
> He was advised to escape, but he would have a hard time hiding. Best try
> an all-or-nothing venture. At worst, he'd be remembered for his valour.

...............

He certainly will, Bill. Ouch! it makes me feel so bloody sad - strange how someone's
death/events of over 500 years ago can have this effect.

Eileen
>
> eileen wrote:
>
> > --- In , Megan Lerseth
> > <megan_phntmgrl@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > This has been explored before, but I think it would be interesting
> > to discuss further.
> > >
> > > Here are some of the options:
> > >
> > > *Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
> > > *If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
> > > *If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to Edward
> > V's throne,
> > controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
> > > *If Edward of Middleham had survived
> > >
> > > All theories or posits are welcome!
> > >
> >
> > Well its only a little bit of fun really & obviously we will never
> > know but one of the things I
> > have wondered:
> >
> > Did the fact that Richard had lost both his wife and son both very
> > recently - that must
> > have had some impact on his mind set - if they had been alive (or
> > even one of them) at
> > the time of Bosworth would it have made any difference - maybe he
> > would not have made
> > that last gallant but futile charge. Was he suffereing from some type
> > of depression. Did
> > he have a death wish? Did he no longer really care if he lived or
> > died? I just wonder if it
> > would have made a difference to his thinking. After all just because
> > you lose a battle does
> > not mean you lose the war. His brother had suffered set backs and
> > came back from it. Of
> > course it hardly matters now but I cant help but wonder.
> > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
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> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+
card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suw
nigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> > Call united kingdom
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=
United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-
jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+ca
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rzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> > United kingdom hotel
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5
=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDG
hpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> > United kingdom vacation
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kin
gdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w
5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10Qju
LXgqY7yLADVTg>
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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subject=Unsubscribe>
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--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Megan Lerseth
<megan_phntmgrl@>
> wrote:
> >
> > This has been explored before, but I think it would be
interesting to discuss further.
> >
> > Here are some of the options:
> >
> > *Of course, if Richard had survived Bosworth
> > *If he had married Joanna of Portugal before his death
> > *If he had instead merely become a scheming puppetmaster to
Edward V's throne,
> controlling the boy but never actually unseating him
> > *If Edward of Middleham had survived
> >
> > All theories or posits are welcome!
> >
>
> Well its only a little bit of fun really & obviously we will never
know but one of the things I
> have wondered:
>
> Did the fact that Richard had lost both his wife and son both very
recently - that must
> have had some impact on his mind set - if they had been alive (or
even one of them) at
> the time of Bosworth would it have made any difference - maybe he
would not have made
> that last gallant but futile charge. Was he suffereing from some
type of depression. Did
> he have a death wish? Did he no longer really care if he lived or
died? I just wonder if it
> would have made a difference to his thinking. After all just
because you lose a battle does
> not mean you lose the war. His brother had suffered set backs and
came back from it. Of
> course it hardly matters now but I cant help but wonder.
> Eileen

I've always thought he was probably clinically depressed at the time
of Bosworth. People who have had a lot of early bereavements are
mnore vulnerable to depression and suicide just as a matter of
statistics. Someone whose life has been fortunate up to that point
may grieve but find the strength to move on. For someone with
Richard's life experience, it might tend to enforce what his brain
had learned as it was developing - ie that life is just a Vale of
Tears and all that. The only family people he still had left from
childhood were his mother and his sister Elizabeth. He had made
Elizabeth's son his right-hand man. He stopped with his mother on the
way up to Bosworth.
Things like that prayer of his seem to confirm that his state of mind
was very troubled. And he made some odd decisions after Anne's death.
Addressing a public meeting to deny he'd poisoned his wife, and
telling them all how bad he felt, was one. Another was the delay in
responding to the news of Tudor's landing. He just doesn't seem to
have been ready. And, yes, the normal thing to do would be to
withdraw and fight again another day.
I suspect what was later portrayed as the agony of a guilty soul was
just the agony of a very lonely man.

Marie


> >
> >
> >
>