Would the Portuguese marriages have needed dispensations?

I have a query relating to the Portuguese marriage negotiations for
Richard to marry Princess Joana and Elizabeth of York to marry
Manuel, Duke of Beja. Would these marriages have needed papal
dispensations to take place? I've worked out that they all had a
common ancestor in John of Gaunt.

Johm was the father of Philippa of Lancaster through his first wife
Blanche. He was the father of Joan Beaufort through his mistress and
later wife Katharine Swynford. Joan was subsequently legitimated.

Philippa and Joan Beaufort were thus half-sisters. Philippa married
Joao (John) I of Portugal. Joan married Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmorland, IIRC.

Philippa was the mother of Duarte, King of Portugal and Joan Beaufort
was the mother of Cecily Neville. So would these two have been
counted as first cousins or first cousins of the half-blood, if there
be such a thing?

Duarte fathered Afonso V and Fernando, Duke of Viseu and Beja.
Cecily was the mother obviously of Edward IV and Richard III. I
think that Richard and Edward were thus second cousins (or half
second cousins) of Afonso.

Afonso was the father of Joana, the Holy Princess. Fernando was the
father of Manuel. Thus Richard was second cousin once removed of
Joana.

Elizabeth of York was the daughter of Edward IV. I think this makes
her and Manuel third cousins.

Were Richard and Elizabeth therefore within the prohibited degrees in
relation to their prospective Portuguese partners?

In comparison, we know Elizabeth and Henry Tudor had a dispensation.
I think Margaret Beaufort and Cecily Neville were either first or
second cousins by their mothers. Which was it? By my reckoning
Elizabeth and Henry were thus either second or third cousins who
shared a mutual ancestor in John of Gaunt.

I believe the prohibited degrees were four. Is this second cousin or
third cousin? (I'm leaving out the relationships by marriage e.g.
marrying dead brother's wife as this isn't relevant.)

If it does work out that Elizabeth and Manuel and/or Richard and
Joana needed dispensations, then my next question is: has any
historian ever looked for them?

I presume the part of the Vatican archives that needs to be checked
is the Papal Penitentiary, where the dispensations for 15th century
English royal marriages were recently found by Peter D Clarke who
published this in the English Historical Review.

Also I wonder if it might have been the Portuguese who negotiated
with the Pope. I remember from one of Barrie Williams' articles that
a Portuguese diplomat called Rui de Sousa was probably in Rome in
June-September 1485. This raises the possibility that he was getting
dispensations for Anglo-Portuguese royal marriages.

Does anyone think it's worth investigating the Papal penitentiary?
If so, who would be able to do it because I believe you have to be a
published historian to be allowed access to the Vatican archives? Do
you think this is something the Richard III Society could do itself
or ask someone to do?

Joanne

--- In , "jotwo2003"
<jsummerill@...> wrote:
>
> I have a query relating to the Portuguese marriage negotiations for
> Richard to marry Princess Joana and Elizabeth of York to marry
> Manuel, Duke of Beja. Would these marriages have needed papal
> dispensations to take place? I've worked out that they all had a
> common ancestor in John of Gaunt.
>
> Johm was the father of Philippa of Lancaster through his first wife
> Blanche. He was the father of Joan Beaufort through his mistress
and
> later wife Katharine Swynford. Joan was subsequently legitimated.
>
> Philippa and Joan Beaufort were thus half-sisters. Philippa
married
> Joao (John) I of Portugal. Joan married Ralph Neville, Earl of
> Westmorland, IIRC.
>
> Philippa was the mother of Duarte, King of Portugal and Joan
Beaufort
> was the mother of Cecily Neville. So would these two have been
> counted as first cousins or first cousins of the half-blood, if
there
> be such a thing?
>
> Duarte fathered Afonso V and Fernando, Duke of Viseu and Beja.
> Cecily was the mother obviously of Edward IV and Richard III. I
> think that Richard and Edward were thus second cousins (or half
> second cousins) of Afonso.
>
> Afonso was the father of Joana, the Holy Princess. Fernando was
the
> father of Manuel. Thus Richard was second cousin once removed of
> Joana.
>
> Elizabeth of York was the daughter of Edward IV. I think this
makes
> her and Manuel third cousins.
>
> Were Richard and Elizabeth therefore within the prohibited degrees
in
> relation to their prospective Portuguese partners?

Thanks for the Portuguese line. The answer would be 'yes'. You draw a
tree and count up the generations on each line starting with the
offspring of the common ancestor. Anything up to and including a four
needs a dispensation. So Manuel and Elizabeth would have been related
in the fourth and fourth degrees of consanguinity, the same as her
relationship to Henry Tudor. Whilst Richard and Joanna would have
been related in the third and fourth degrees of consanguinity.
Dispensations for such distant relationships would not normally be
difficult to obtain unless there was political opposition from some
quarter.
Strictly speaking, by the way, you also needed dispensations for the
same levels of relationship through marriage. That could make the
technicalities a bit of a minefield for very interbred societies.

Marie

There certainly are first cousins of the half blood - I have two!

Ann

jotwo2003 <jsummerill@...> wrote:
I have a query relating to the Portuguese marriage negotiations for
Richard to marry Princess Joana and Elizabeth of York to marry
Manuel, Duke of Beja. Would these marriages have needed papal
dispensations to take place? I've worked out that they all had a
common ancestor in John of Gaunt.

Johm was the father of Philippa of Lancaster through his first wife
Blanche. He was the father of Joan Beaufort through his mistress and
later wife Katharine Swynford. Joan was subsequently legitimated.

Philippa and Joan Beaufort were thus half-sisters. Philippa married
Joao (John) I of Portugal. Joan married Ralph Neville, Earl of
Westmorland, IIRC.

Philippa was the mother of Duarte, King of Portugal and Joan Beaufort
was the mother of Cecily Neville. So would these two have been
counted as first cousins or first cousins of the half-blood, if there
be such a thing?

Joanne:
> ... relating to the Portuguese marriage negotiations for
> Richard to marry Princess Joana and Elizabeth of York to marry
> Manuel, Duke of Beja. Would these marriages have needed papal
> dispensations to take place? I've worked out that they all had a
> common ancestor in John of Gaunt.

Ann:
Yes, the couples were closely enough related that papal
dispensations would have been required. They would have been pretty
straightforward for third- or fourth-cousin diplomatic marriages of
this sort.

Joanne:
> Philippa and Joan Beaufort were thus half-sisters....
> So would these two have been counted as first
> cousins or first cousins of the half-blood, if there
> be such a thing?

Ann:
I would expect any fourteenth or fifteenth century references
to say "cousins" rather than "half-blood." Especially as the
important royal ancestor was John of Gaunt, and the relationship
wasn't through either wife.

Joanne:
> Also I wonder if it might have been the Portuguese
> who negotiated with the Pope.
> Does anyone think it's worth investigating
> the Papal penitentiary?

Ann:
Just murmur the words, "post-doc dissertation" or, alternatively,
possibly "sequel to THE DA VINCI CODE," with perhaps "film rights"
and the name of the most glamorous star you can come up with!

L.P.H.,

Ann