"guilty foreknowledge"

Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
(of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
to have had?

This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard III."

And, speaking of Buckingham, what are we to make of his quickly taking
on all of Hastings' staff (*all* of them?) and carting them off to his
lands in Wales? Sounds like a hush-up to me, or perhaps an opportuniy
to isolate them and get some information from them.


Katy

I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend Buckingham.

Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?


Katy

>
> I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
> where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
> start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
Buckingham.
>
> Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
> something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?
>
>
> Katy
>
Hi Katy,
If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you made
the following post. I guess you answered you own question.

Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
(of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard
III."

Anyway, the other day you posted:
How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There has
to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
meticulous about getting even.

Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the arrest
of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that have
been enough for Morton to want revenge?
Just asking.
Howard

--- In , "Howard Heller"
<howard_heller@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
> > where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
> > start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
> Buckingham.
> >
> > Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
> > something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?
> >
> >
> > Katy
> >
> Hi Katy,
> If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you made
> the following post. I guess you answered you own question.
>
> Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
> (of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
> to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard
> III."
>
> Anyway, the other day you posted:
> How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There has
> to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
> meticulous about getting even.
>
> Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the arrest
> of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that have
> been enough for Morton to want revenge?
> Just asking.
> Howard


I plead poor memory. But I was also trying to get some discussion
started up again.

Katy

--- In , "Howard Heller"
<howard_heller@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
> > where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
> > start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
> Buckingham.
> >
> > Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
> > something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?
> >
> >
> > Katy
> >
> Hi Katy,
> If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you made
> the following post. I guess you answered you own question.
>
> Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
> (of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
> to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard
> III."
>
> Anyway, the other day you posted:
> How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There has
> to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
> meticulous about getting even.
>
> Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the arrest
> of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that have
> been enough for Morton to want revenge?
> Just asking.
> Howard

I plead poor memory. But I was also trying to get some discussion
started up again.

Katy

here's a possible topic to get the discussion rolling.
was it really henry vii that buckingham wrote to for reserves/backup in september 1483?
what experience did h7 have with war aside from fleeing from combat? would it not make more sense for buckingham to request assistance from jasper tudor, a real battle veteran?
why is jasper not mentioned with regards to buckingham's rebellion? did h7 really want to assist buckingham? why didn't buckingham wait to have his ducks in a row before rebelling?
buckingham's widow catherine woodville married jasper after h7 became king.
roslyn

I would suggest that Tudor did not assist Buckingham who had his eyes on the crown, because that is what Tudor also wanted.

I would also suggest that Buckingham did not wait, due to his personality, from what I have read it was quite impulsive, if not reckless.

What do other think.

As for his wife marrying Jasper, being a widow in those times was difficult, prehaps he was too good a catch to miss.



fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote: --- In , "Howard Heller"
<howard_heller@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
> > where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
> > start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
> Buckingham.
> >
> > Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
> > something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?
> >
> >
> > Katy
> >
> Hi Katy,
> If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you made
> the following post. I guess you answered you own question.
>
> Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
> (of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
> to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard
> III."
>
> Anyway, the other day you posted:
> How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There has
> to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
> meticulous about getting even.
>
> Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the arrest
> of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that have
> been enough for Morton to want revenge?
> Just asking.
> Howard

I plead poor memory. But I was also trying to get some discussion
started up again.

Katy

here's a possible topic to get the discussion rolling.
was it really henry vii that buckingham wrote to for reserves/backup in september 1483?
what experience did h7 have with war aside from fleeing from combat? would it not make more sense for buckingham to request assistance from jasper tudor, a real battle veteran?
why is jasper not mentioned with regards to buckingham's rebellion? did h7 really want to assist buckingham? why didn't buckingham wait to have his ducks in a row before rebelling?
buckingham's widow catherine woodville married jasper after h7 became king.
roslyn








---------------------------------
Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.

--- In , marion cheatham
<marioncheatham2003@...> wrote:
>
> I would suggest that Tudor did not assist Buckingham who had his
eyes on the crown, because that is what Tudor also wanted.
>
> I would also suggest that Buckingham did not wait, due to his
personality, from what I have read it was quite impulsive, if not
reckless.
>
> What do other think.
>
> As for his wife marrying Jasper, being a widow in those times was
difficult, prehaps he was too good a catch to miss.
>
If there is one thing we can be certain of with the Staffords it is
that they would always act in their own interest. Harre Bokyngham was
the second most important man in the kingdom whilst Tidder was a
nobody in exile. Two years later, Bokyngham was a decaying headless
corpse and Tidder the King of England. The former had no spin doctors
by then, not that he ever did.

Then again, that applied to a few other great families of the time.
>
> fayre rose <fayreroze@...>
wrote: --- In
, "Howard Heller"
> <howard_heller@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at
work
> > > where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this
computer and
> > > start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
> > Buckingham.
> > >
> > > Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty
foreknowledge (or
> > > something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the
Tower?
> > >
> > >
> > > Katy
> > >
> > Hi Katy,
> > If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you
made
> > the following post. I guess you answered you own question.
> >
> > Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty
foreknowledge"
> > (of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was
supposed
> > to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King
Richard
> > III."
> >
> > Anyway, the other day you posted:
> > How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There
has
> > to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
> > meticulous about getting even.
> >
> > Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the
arrest
> > of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that
have
> > been enough for Morton to want revenge?
> > Just asking.
> > Howard
>
> I plead poor memory. But I was also trying to get some discussion
> started up again.
>
> Katy
>
> here's a possible topic to get the discussion rolling.
> was it really henry vii that buckingham wrote to for
reserves/backup in september 1483?
> what experience did h7 have with war aside from fleeing from
combat? would it not make more sense for buckingham to request
assistance from jasper tudor, a real battle veteran?
> why is jasper not mentioned with regards to buckingham's
rebellion? did h7 really want to assist buckingham? why didn't
buckingham wait to have his ducks in a row before rebelling?
> buckingham's widow catherine woodville married jasper after h7
became king.
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
>
>
>

Hello all. I'm brand new to the forum, but I wanted to share a thought
or two on the subject of Jasper Tudor and Catherine Woodville. I think
Catherine Woodville had little choice in the matter of her marriage to
Jasper Tudor. I don't remember the exact value of her dower lands
when she married Buckingham, but they were considerable. Henry VII had
already handed over the wardship and marriage of the young Stafford
heir Edward (3rd Duke of Buckingham) to "Mommy Dearest", so placing
the remainder of the Stafford lands and the other three children in
the hands of Uncle Jasper would ensure that everyone in the
Tudor/Beaufort family made some money off the deal. There is also the
point to be considered that the two Stafford boys, Edward and Henry,
were Henry VII's nearest male relations in the Beaufort line of
descent. I don't know if Henry ever named an heir presumptive before
the birth of Arthur, but he would certainly have wanted all of the
Stafford children to be under tight and trusted control.

Gary

--- In , marion cheatham
<marioncheatham2003@...> wrote:
>
> I would suggest that Tudor did not assist Buckingham who had his
eyes on the crown, because that is what Tudor also wanted.
>
> I would also suggest that Buckingham did not wait, due to his
personality, from what I have read it was quite impulsive, if not
reckless.
>
> What do other think.
>
> As for his wife marrying Jasper, being a widow in those times was
difficult, prehaps he was too good a catch to miss.
>
>
>
> fayre rose <fayreroze@...> wrote:
--- In , "Howard Heller"
> <howard_heller@> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm not at home where my reference stuff is -- in fact I'm at work
> > > where I had better not open a bunch of windows in this computer and
> > > start researching -- but I was just thinking about our friend
> > Buckingham.
> > >
> > > Who said, and where, that Buckingham had a guilty foreknowledge (or
> > > something like that) of the disappearance of the boys in the Tower?
> > >
> > >
> > > Katy
> > >
> > Hi Katy,
> > If you have not already had an answer, back on Feb 25, 2006, you made
> > the following post. I guess you answered you own question.
> >
> > Harking back to Buckingham, just what was the "guilty foreknowledge"
> > (of the fate of the "princes", I believe it was) that he was supposed
> > to have had? This is from More's (Morton's) "History of King Richard
> > III."
> >
> > Anyway, the other day you posted:
> > How had the paths of Brackenbury and Morton ever crossed? There has
> > to be something there. Morton was a man who bore grudges and was
> > meticulous about getting even.
> >
> > Do you know/think Brackenbury was involved/influential in the arrest
> > of Morton and others, the day Hastings lost his head? Would that have
> > been enough for Morton to want revenge?
> > Just asking.
> > Howard
>
> I plead poor memory. But I was also trying to get some discussion
> started up again.
>
> Katy
>
> here's a possible topic to get the discussion rolling.
> was it really henry vii that buckingham wrote to for
reserves/backup in september 1483?
> what experience did h7 have with war aside from fleeing from
combat? would it not make more sense for buckingham to request
assistance from jasper tudor, a real battle veteran?
> why is jasper not mentioned with regards to buckingham's
rebellion? did h7 really want to assist buckingham? why didn't
buckingham wait to have his ducks in a row before rebelling?
> buckingham's widow catherine woodville married jasper after h7
became king.
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with
Yahoo! FareChase.
>
>
>