Edward IV Illegitimacy
Edward IV Illegitimacy
2006-03-21 12:05:11
For anyone interested in the Edward IV Illegitimacy speculation there is an excellent article in the March issue of History Today by a respected Academic that basically dismisses the idea as pure contemporary rumour mongering and a deliberate attempt at character assassination. (And if we are being honest two weeks premature or late is not significant either way for a baby and talking of Historical factual books where did I put my copy of Holy Blood and Holy Grail &. LOL)
Diomedes
Diomedes
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Edward IV Illegitimacy
2006-03-21 14:36:02
Maybe it's beside your copy of /*The Da Vinci Code*/ :-).
diomedes5465@... wrote:
> For anyone interested in the Edward IV Illegitimacy speculation there
> is an excellent article in the March issue of History Today by a
> respected Academic that basically dismisses the idea as pure
> contemporary rumour mongering and a deliberate attempt at character
> assassination. (And if we are being honest two weeks premature or
> late is not significant either way for a baby and talking of
> Historical factual books where did I put my copy of Holy Blood
> and Holy Grail &. LOL)
>
> Diomedes
>
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diomedes5465@... wrote:
> For anyone interested in the Edward IV Illegitimacy speculation there
> is an excellent article in the March issue of History Today by a
> respected Academic that basically dismisses the idea as pure
> contemporary rumour mongering and a deliberate attempt at character
> assassination. (And if we are being honest two weeks premature or
> late is not significant either way for a baby and talking of
> Historical factual books where did I put my copy of Holy Blood
> and Holy Grail &. LOL)
>
> Diomedes
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
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> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-21 23:44:33
--- In , diomedes5465@... wrote:
>
> For anyone interested in the Edward IV Illegitimacy speculation there
is an excellent article in the March issue of “History Today†by a
respected Academic that basically dismisses the idea as pure
contemporary rumour mongering and a deliberate attempt at character
assassination. (And if we are being honest two weeks premature or late
is not significant either way for a baby and talking of Historical
“factual†books â€" where did I put my copy of “Holy Blood and
Holy Grailâ€â€¦. LOL)
>
> Diomedes
You mean Joanna Laynesmith's article? Already read it. Lost this reply
once, so this is short.
Joanna did her MA on Cecily, and has been quite defensive about Jones'
theory (he thanks her in his book for her loan to him of her MA
dissertation, which he used in evidence!) She has lectured on Cecily a
lot (and still does), and Jones' theory (based on discovery of the true
length of the siege of Pontoise) has disturbed the status quo in that
regard quite a bit. She has, not surprisingly therefore, written a few
pieces in past Ricardian bulletins on the subject.
Compared to these, she has softened her tone quite a bit in this
article. I would really like to discuss this in more detail if
anybody's game. Edward's illegitimacy is an unprovable theory, but - in
my opinion - not dismissable. One of those nasty things we have to keep
sight of without knowing quite where to file it.
"Two weeks premature either way is not significant". Two weeks either
side of EDD is within normal boundaries, agreed - because it is
not "premature" (or postmature for that matter). However, York was away
for two weeks before, and three weeks after, Edward's "expected"
conception date. And human females are only fertile once a month.
Of course such claims of illegitimacy had been used for political
purposes before - Jones actually cites many such himself. But that is
obviously not the end of the matter. You might as well say - well -
"people have been falsely accused of adultery in the past therefore
adultery does not exist".
Marie
PS. My copy of the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail is in my conservatory.
And my own suspicion is that JC never existed at all, never mind left
descendants. But that is not to say that there may have been people who
believed they were descendants (either direct or collateral). It's a
messy old world, isn't it?
>
>
> For anyone interested in the Edward IV Illegitimacy speculation there
is an excellent article in the March issue of “History Today†by a
respected Academic that basically dismisses the idea as pure
contemporary rumour mongering and a deliberate attempt at character
assassination. (And if we are being honest two weeks premature or late
is not significant either way for a baby and talking of Historical
“factual†books â€" where did I put my copy of “Holy Blood and
Holy Grailâ€â€¦. LOL)
>
> Diomedes
You mean Joanna Laynesmith's article? Already read it. Lost this reply
once, so this is short.
Joanna did her MA on Cecily, and has been quite defensive about Jones'
theory (he thanks her in his book for her loan to him of her MA
dissertation, which he used in evidence!) She has lectured on Cecily a
lot (and still does), and Jones' theory (based on discovery of the true
length of the siege of Pontoise) has disturbed the status quo in that
regard quite a bit. She has, not surprisingly therefore, written a few
pieces in past Ricardian bulletins on the subject.
Compared to these, she has softened her tone quite a bit in this
article. I would really like to discuss this in more detail if
anybody's game. Edward's illegitimacy is an unprovable theory, but - in
my opinion - not dismissable. One of those nasty things we have to keep
sight of without knowing quite where to file it.
"Two weeks premature either way is not significant". Two weeks either
side of EDD is within normal boundaries, agreed - because it is
not "premature" (or postmature for that matter). However, York was away
for two weeks before, and three weeks after, Edward's "expected"
conception date. And human females are only fertile once a month.
Of course such claims of illegitimacy had been used for political
purposes before - Jones actually cites many such himself. But that is
obviously not the end of the matter. You might as well say - well -
"people have been falsely accused of adultery in the past therefore
adultery does not exist".
Marie
PS. My copy of the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail is in my conservatory.
And my own suspicion is that JC never existed at all, never mind left
descendants. But that is not to say that there may have been people who
believed they were descendants (either direct or collateral). It's a
messy old world, isn't it?
>
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-22 10:50:07
--- In , "mariewalsh2003" <marie@...> wrote:
>
>> >
>
> l would really like to discuss this in more detail if
> anybody's game. Edward's illegitimacy is an unprovable theory, but - in
> my opinion - not dismissable. One of those nasty things we have to keep
> sight of without knowing quite where to file it.
Yes Marie, lets discuss - this is really good stuff!
Eileen
> "Two weeks premature either way is not significant". Two weeks either
> side of EDD is within normal boundaries, agreed - because it is
> not "premature" (or postmature for that matter). However, York was away
> for two weeks before, and three weeks after, Edward's "expected"
> conception date. And human females are only fertile once a month.
>
> Of course such claims of illegitimacy had been used for political
> purposes before - Jones actually cites many such himself. But that is
> obviously not the end of the matter. You might as well say - well -
> "people have been falsely accused of adultery in the past therefore
> adultery does not exist".
>
> Marie
>
> PS. My copy of the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail is in my conservatory.
> And my own suspicion is that JC never existed at all, never mind left
> descendants. But that is not to say that there may have been people who
> believed they were descendants (either direct or collateral). It's a
> messy old world, isn't it?
>
>
>
> >
>
>
>> >
>
> l would really like to discuss this in more detail if
> anybody's game. Edward's illegitimacy is an unprovable theory, but - in
> my opinion - not dismissable. One of those nasty things we have to keep
> sight of without knowing quite where to file it.
Yes Marie, lets discuss - this is really good stuff!
Eileen
> "Two weeks premature either way is not significant". Two weeks either
> side of EDD is within normal boundaries, agreed - because it is
> not "premature" (or postmature for that matter). However, York was away
> for two weeks before, and three weeks after, Edward's "expected"
> conception date. And human females are only fertile once a month.
>
> Of course such claims of illegitimacy had been used for political
> purposes before - Jones actually cites many such himself. But that is
> obviously not the end of the matter. You might as well say - well -
> "people have been falsely accused of adultery in the past therefore
> adultery does not exist".
>
> Marie
>
> PS. My copy of the Holy Blood and the Holy Grail is in my conservatory.
> And my own suspicion is that JC never existed at all, never mind left
> descendants. But that is not to say that there may have been people who
> believed they were descendants (either direct or collateral). It's a
> messy old world, isn't it?
>
>
>
> >
>
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-23 21:48:33
Marie (et al)
I admit to not knowing the answer to this one but it drives right to the
core. Do we KNOW that York himself was away from 16th July to 21st August or
are those simply the dates that the ARMY was absent. Many nobles and leaders
are often missing from an Army for a number of days before and after the
actual opening of the fighting and / or siege and often even during taking a few
days away was not unheard of (during the "boring bits" with no glory to be
gained presumably).
Such an absence would not be remarkable in any way and may not even have
been noted. In the following Century when diarist record such things it can
even be that commanders only actually arrive at a siege in time to take the
surrender but are credited with being "in command" throughout (since technically
of course they were), a prime example being Monsieur's campaigns and sieges
in the 1670s and early 1680s.
York has only to be a couple of days absent for whatever reason for all
credibility to disappear BUT, as I said, I don't know the answer to whether we
have documentary sources confirming York's whereabouts all this time.
Diomedes
PS Most def NOT with my copy of Dan Brown's book - I released that on
www.bookcrossing.com after reading about a chapter and a half.
I admit to not knowing the answer to this one but it drives right to the
core. Do we KNOW that York himself was away from 16th July to 21st August or
are those simply the dates that the ARMY was absent. Many nobles and leaders
are often missing from an Army for a number of days before and after the
actual opening of the fighting and / or siege and often even during taking a few
days away was not unheard of (during the "boring bits" with no glory to be
gained presumably).
Such an absence would not be remarkable in any way and may not even have
been noted. In the following Century when diarist record such things it can
even be that commanders only actually arrive at a siege in time to take the
surrender but are credited with being "in command" throughout (since technically
of course they were), a prime example being Monsieur's campaigns and sieges
in the 1670s and early 1680s.
York has only to be a couple of days absent for whatever reason for all
credibility to disappear BUT, as I said, I don't know the answer to whether we
have documentary sources confirming York's whereabouts all this time.
Diomedes
PS Most def NOT with my copy of Dan Brown's book - I released that on
www.bookcrossing.com after reading about a chapter and a half.
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-23 22:49:03
--- In , diomedes5465@... wrote:
>
> Marie (et al)
>
> I admit to not knowing the answer to this one but it drives right
to the
> core. Do we KNOW that York himself was away from 16th July to
21st August or
> are those simply the dates that the ARMY was absent. Many nobles
and leaders
> are often missing from an Army for a number of days before and
after the
> actual opening of the fighting and / or siege and often even
during taking a few
> days away was not unheard of (during the "boring bits" with no
glory to be
> gained presumably).
>
> Such an absence would not be remarkable in any way and may not
even have
> been noted. In the following Century when diarist record such
things it can
> even be that commanders only actually arrive at a siege in time to
take the
> surrender but are credited with being "in command" throughout
(since technically
> of course they were), a prime example being Monsieur's campaigns
and sieges
> in the 1670s and early 1680s.
>
> York has only to be a couple of days absent for whatever reason
for all
> credibility to disappear BUT, as I said, I don't know the answer
to whether we
> have documentary sources confirming York's whereabouts all this
time.
>
> Diomedes
What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
very likely.
Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
>
> PS Most def NOT with my copy of Dan Brown's book
Ah! Not actually 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail', then. I
found 'The Da Vinci Ccode' much much less enthralling than I'd been
led to expect (from a friend who'd read it). Quite readable, okay,
but hardly a work of lit. (comiclevel English, really) and the twists
extremely guessable. I find it interesting that Dan Brown claimed in
court to have been unable to read the HB & HG. Too hard for him,
obviously. Not that I would endorse everything in the HT & HG, of
course.
>
> Marie (et al)
>
> I admit to not knowing the answer to this one but it drives right
to the
> core. Do we KNOW that York himself was away from 16th July to
21st August or
> are those simply the dates that the ARMY was absent. Many nobles
and leaders
> are often missing from an Army for a number of days before and
after the
> actual opening of the fighting and / or siege and often even
during taking a few
> days away was not unheard of (during the "boring bits" with no
glory to be
> gained presumably).
>
> Such an absence would not be remarkable in any way and may not
even have
> been noted. In the following Century when diarist record such
things it can
> even be that commanders only actually arrive at a siege in time to
take the
> surrender but are credited with being "in command" throughout
(since technically
> of course they were), a prime example being Monsieur's campaigns
and sieges
> in the 1670s and early 1680s.
>
> York has only to be a couple of days absent for whatever reason
for all
> credibility to disappear BUT, as I said, I don't know the answer
to whether we
> have documentary sources confirming York's whereabouts all this
time.
>
> Diomedes
What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
very likely.
Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
>
> PS Most def NOT with my copy of Dan Brown's book
Ah! Not actually 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail', then. I
found 'The Da Vinci Ccode' much much less enthralling than I'd been
led to expect (from a friend who'd read it). Quite readable, okay,
but hardly a work of lit. (comiclevel English, really) and the twists
extremely guessable. I find it interesting that Dan Brown claimed in
court to have been unable to read the HB & HG. Too hard for him,
obviously. Not that I would endorse everything in the HT & HG, of
course.
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-24 11:08:35
But is it not possible that the Duchess of York went to Pontoise with the Duke? Admittedly, the prayers were only for the Duke's safe return, but maybe the clergy were just less interested in the Duchess.
The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious behaviour' is that it is all subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the fact that the future Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might well be because he was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a hurry.
Ann
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
very likely.
Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
---------------------------------
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The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious behaviour' is that it is all subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the fact that the future Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might well be because he was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a hurry.
Ann
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
very likely.
Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-24 11:21:11
--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious behaviour' is that it is all
subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the fact that the future
Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might well be because he
was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a hurry.
>
> Ann
I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a baby 3-4 weeks early
would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on that??
Eileen
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
> What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
> Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
> every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
> miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
> very likely.
> Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
> motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >
> The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious behaviour' is that it is all
subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the fact that the future
Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might well be because he
was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a hurry.
>
> Ann
I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a baby 3-4 weeks early
would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on that??
Eileen
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
> What Michael Jones did, apparently, was to look in the Rouen
> Cathedral register. Prayers were said for the Duke's safe return
> every day up till & including the 20th August. Pontoise is over 70
> miles by road from Rouen, so a quick nip back for nookie doesn't seem
> very likely.
> Perhaps we could concentrate on the old murder mysteries trio of
> motive, opportunity and suspicious behaviour?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-24 12:59:06
Quite possibly. The premature babies we are constantly reaing about nowadays and who need high-tech facilities to keep them going are VERY premature - 6-7 months gestation at most. Arthur Tudor was born at 8 months gestation AT MOST and survived, though never in good health and died at 15. Coming forward to the Victorian era, but bear in mind that techniques for dealing with premature infants would not have advnced much:
1) Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence, was born at seven months gestation in 1864. He neer seems to have been terribly robust and died at 28, but my impression is that there is a big difference between two months early and three weeks early;
2) Winston Churchill was born seven months after his parents' marriage in 1874. Given that young ladies were strictly chaperoned until marriage I think it unlikely that he was conceived before the wedding - this supposition is borne out by the fact that his mother went into labour very suddenly while attending a ball (given the habits of the day it seems unlikely that she would have been at a ball if she was expected to give birth imminently). Churchill of course lived to be 90 and clearly had a very robust constitution since it stood up to a great deal of abuse in the form of brandy and cigars!
3) The German general Heinz Guderian was born in 1889, eight months after his parents' wedding. Since his parents were from Prussian junker families it is, again, unlikely that he was conceived before the wedding. Guderian lived into his 70s in good health.
Ann
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a baby 3-4 weeks early
would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on that??
Eileen
1) Albert Victor, Duke of Clarence, was born at seven months gestation in 1864. He neer seems to have been terribly robust and died at 28, but my impression is that there is a big difference between two months early and three weeks early;
2) Winston Churchill was born seven months after his parents' marriage in 1874. Given that young ladies were strictly chaperoned until marriage I think it unlikely that he was conceived before the wedding - this supposition is borne out by the fact that his mother went into labour very suddenly while attending a ball (given the habits of the day it seems unlikely that she would have been at a ball if she was expected to give birth imminently). Churchill of course lived to be 90 and clearly had a very robust constitution since it stood up to a great deal of abuse in the form of brandy and cigars!
3) The German general Heinz Guderian was born in 1889, eight months after his parents' wedding. Since his parents were from Prussian junker families it is, again, unlikely that he was conceived before the wedding. Guderian lived into his 70s in good health.
Ann
eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a baby 3-4 weeks early
would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on that??
Eileen
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-24 13:33:13
--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
wrote:
> >
> > >
> > The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious
behaviour' is that it is all
> subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the
fact that the future
> Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might
well be because he
> was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a
hurry.
> >
> > Ann
To respond to all the above:-
Firstly, it isn't likely that York left the siege anyway. this was
not the 17th century. Ideas of proper behaviour for a military
comander were somewhat different in the 17th century. This was also
remembered in the family as York's finest and bravest achievement.
But, in any case, we have the cathedral register as evidence.
Given that this was actually a dangerous battleground, it is equally
unlikely that Cecily was there.
>
> I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
baby 3-4 weeks early
> would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me
on that??
I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
Edward's having been premature. He himself, in his Book of Hours,
gave his place of conception as Hatfield in Yorkshire, where his
parents were living before they came over to Normandy. That would
make him impossibly overdue (quite when York left Hatfield is not
clear, but he left London for Portsmouth on 16th May). Also, the
private baptism was quickly massaged out of Edward's story. Looking
recently at some of my textbooks , I see that Tudor antiquaries
confidently stated that Edward was christened in Rouen cathedral.
Again, it seems to have been Jones who found the true details of the
christening by researching in French archives.
I notice Joanna states in her article that Edward's elder brother
Henry only lived a few days, which of course make's Cecily's adultery
seem all the more unlikely. I think she is probably copying Johnson
('Richard Duke of York') there, but without having read him
sufficiently carefully*. The fact is we don't know at all when Henry
died, except he was off the scene by 1444/5 when York started making
arrangements for his sons' futures. The English version of the
contemporary rhyme on the Duke's children says:
"Sir, after the time of long barrenness,
God first sent Anne, which signifieth Grace
In token that all their hearts' heaviness
He (as for barrenness) would fro them chase.
Harry, Edward and Edmund, each in his place
Succeeded; and, after, twain daughters came,
Elizabeth and Margaret. . . [and all the rest].
. . . To the Duke of Exeter Anne married is
In her tender youth. but my Lord Harry
God chosen hath to inherit Heaven's bliss,
And left Edward to succeed temporally,
Now Earl of March. . . "
I know it is often argued that the Latin version (which I haven't
seen) was written first, and is a mere list, and that in making it
into English the author was putting in words merely to keep the
rhyme. But I'm under the impression that it was the same suthor, and
he was a member of York's household. And it certainly reads as though
he believed Edward only became York's heir on Henry's death.
Compare his treatment of Henry with that of Thomas, who apparently
failed to make it into a lot of lists of York's children and so
certainly didn't live very long:
". . . and, after, Thomas
Born was, which soon after did pass
By the path of death to the heavenly place. . ."
*In a footnote to a passage relating contemporary criticism at York's
delay in going over to Normandy, Johnson says: "York's first son,
Henry, was born at Hatfield on 10 February 1441. He may not have
survived more than a few hours, but if he lived for a few weeks York
may have felt it necessary to make provision for his heir before his
departure. It was thought in Westminster on 14th Feb. that the child
was still alive."
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
wrote:
> >
> > >
> > The problem with what Jones considers to be 'suspicious
behaviour' is that it is all
> subject to more than one explanation. Just to take one example, the
fact that the future
> Edward IV's baptism was rather modest compared with Edmund's might
well be because he
> was 3-4 weeks early, considered a bit fragile and so baptised in a
hurry.
> >
> > Ann
To respond to all the above:-
Firstly, it isn't likely that York left the siege anyway. this was
not the 17th century. Ideas of proper behaviour for a military
comander were somewhat different in the 17th century. This was also
remembered in the family as York's finest and bravest achievement.
But, in any case, we have the cathedral register as evidence.
Given that this was actually a dangerous battleground, it is equally
unlikely that Cecily was there.
>
> I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
baby 3-4 weeks early
> would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me
on that??
I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
Edward's having been premature. He himself, in his Book of Hours,
gave his place of conception as Hatfield in Yorkshire, where his
parents were living before they came over to Normandy. That would
make him impossibly overdue (quite when York left Hatfield is not
clear, but he left London for Portsmouth on 16th May). Also, the
private baptism was quickly massaged out of Edward's story. Looking
recently at some of my textbooks , I see that Tudor antiquaries
confidently stated that Edward was christened in Rouen cathedral.
Again, it seems to have been Jones who found the true details of the
christening by researching in French archives.
I notice Joanna states in her article that Edward's elder brother
Henry only lived a few days, which of course make's Cecily's adultery
seem all the more unlikely. I think she is probably copying Johnson
('Richard Duke of York') there, but without having read him
sufficiently carefully*. The fact is we don't know at all when Henry
died, except he was off the scene by 1444/5 when York started making
arrangements for his sons' futures. The English version of the
contemporary rhyme on the Duke's children says:
"Sir, after the time of long barrenness,
God first sent Anne, which signifieth Grace
In token that all their hearts' heaviness
He (as for barrenness) would fro them chase.
Harry, Edward and Edmund, each in his place
Succeeded; and, after, twain daughters came,
Elizabeth and Margaret. . . [and all the rest].
. . . To the Duke of Exeter Anne married is
In her tender youth. but my Lord Harry
God chosen hath to inherit Heaven's bliss,
And left Edward to succeed temporally,
Now Earl of March. . . "
I know it is often argued that the Latin version (which I haven't
seen) was written first, and is a mere list, and that in making it
into English the author was putting in words merely to keep the
rhyme. But I'm under the impression that it was the same suthor, and
he was a member of York's household. And it certainly reads as though
he believed Edward only became York's heir on Henry's death.
Compare his treatment of Henry with that of Thomas, who apparently
failed to make it into a lot of lists of York's children and so
certainly didn't live very long:
". . . and, after, Thomas
Born was, which soon after did pass
By the path of death to the heavenly place. . ."
*In a footnote to a passage relating contemporary criticism at York's
delay in going over to Normandy, Johnson says: "York's first son,
Henry, was born at Hatfield on 10 February 1441. He may not have
survived more than a few hours, but if he lived for a few weeks York
may have felt it necessary to make provision for his heir before his
departure. It was thought in Westminster on 14th Feb. that the child
was still alive."
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-24 14:42:12
Two points:
1) Under the chivalric tradition there was a strong taboo against harming upper crust ladies, so being near a siege would not put the Duchess in personal danger (provided she was out of range of arrows etc). If she were taken prisoner she could expect to be well looked after and swiftly sent back to the Duke under flag of truce. On that basis, there would be nothing except personal inclination, or lack of it, to prevent her from accompanying the Duke (though we can't assume that she did). The fact that the Duchess would not be in danger would also explain why, if she did accompany the Duke, she was not included in the prayers for his safe return.
2) Though there is no suggestion in contemporary accounts that Edward IV was born prematurely, from the dates it is equally possible that he was overdue. I'm no expert on the subject, but I understand that the present enthusiasm for inducing births once the mother goes two weeks overdue stems from concern that being overdue causes problems because the placenta stops working properly.
Of course, we are never going to know the true position, as with a great many other things in the 15th century.
Ann
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
To respond to all the above:-
Firstly, it isn't likely that York left the siege anyway. this was
not the 17th century. Ideas of proper behaviour for a military
comander were somewhat different in the 17th century. This was also
remembered in the family as York's finest and bravest achievement.
But, in any case, we have the cathedral register as evidence.
Given that this was actually a dangerous battleground, it is equally
unlikely that Cecily was there.
I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
Edward's having been premature.
1) Under the chivalric tradition there was a strong taboo against harming upper crust ladies, so being near a siege would not put the Duchess in personal danger (provided she was out of range of arrows etc). If she were taken prisoner she could expect to be well looked after and swiftly sent back to the Duke under flag of truce. On that basis, there would be nothing except personal inclination, or lack of it, to prevent her from accompanying the Duke (though we can't assume that she did). The fact that the Duchess would not be in danger would also explain why, if she did accompany the Duke, she was not included in the prayers for his safe return.
2) Though there is no suggestion in contemporary accounts that Edward IV was born prematurely, from the dates it is equally possible that he was overdue. I'm no expert on the subject, but I understand that the present enthusiasm for inducing births once the mother goes two weeks overdue stems from concern that being overdue causes problems because the placenta stops working properly.
Of course, we are never going to know the true position, as with a great many other things in the 15th century.
Ann
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
To respond to all the above:-
Firstly, it isn't likely that York left the siege anyway. this was
not the 17th century. Ideas of proper behaviour for a military
comander were somewhat different in the 17th century. This was also
remembered in the family as York's finest and bravest achievement.
But, in any case, we have the cathedral register as evidence.
Given that this was actually a dangerous battleground, it is equally
unlikely that Cecily was there.
I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
Edward's having been premature.
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-24 15:54:06
--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
wrote:
> >
>
> I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
baby 3-4 weeks early
> would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on
that??
Very likely if otherwise healthy. A full-term baby now weighs about 8
pounds, and probably did then, too, at least among the upper classes,
since people were otherwise about the same size they are now. (The
popular notion that "people were smaller then" is pretty much a fallacy
as far as the 14th and 15th centuries are concerned.) A baby usually
puts on a pound or a pound and a half of weight in its ninth month in
utero, so an eight-month baby would still be a quite viable 6 or 7
pounds. Most of the time even a seven-month baby has organ systems
well enough developed for it to survive, with careful nursing care that
would have been available to the upper classes then, and we know of
some notable seven-monthers, though I can't think of any at the moment.
But a baby of five pounds or so can't maintain its own body
temperature, and in turn it can't digest food, so things would become
iffy at less than seven months, back then. But I'm sure most people
know of an instance or two of very premature babies surviving without
modern medical help. A friend of mine is one of a pair of twins born
at six months, at a remote New Mexico ranch during a February
blizzard. She and her sister both fit in a shoebox, and their
grandmother put them on the open door of the stove and kept them warm
with the heat of a low fire in the oven. The family joke is that that
is why they are half-baked.
And conversely, of course, full-term babies can be born weak or sickly
for no reason that would have been apparent in the Middle Ages. Or
now, for that matter.
Katy
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
wrote:
> >
>
> I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
baby 3-4 weeks early
> would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me on
that??
Very likely if otherwise healthy. A full-term baby now weighs about 8
pounds, and probably did then, too, at least among the upper classes,
since people were otherwise about the same size they are now. (The
popular notion that "people were smaller then" is pretty much a fallacy
as far as the 14th and 15th centuries are concerned.) A baby usually
puts on a pound or a pound and a half of weight in its ninth month in
utero, so an eight-month baby would still be a quite viable 6 or 7
pounds. Most of the time even a seven-month baby has organ systems
well enough developed for it to survive, with careful nursing care that
would have been available to the upper classes then, and we know of
some notable seven-monthers, though I can't think of any at the moment.
But a baby of five pounds or so can't maintain its own body
temperature, and in turn it can't digest food, so things would become
iffy at less than seven months, back then. But I'm sure most people
know of an instance or two of very premature babies surviving without
modern medical help. A friend of mine is one of a pair of twins born
at six months, at a remote New Mexico ranch during a February
blizzard. She and her sister both fit in a shoebox, and their
grandmother put them on the open door of the stove and kept them warm
with the heat of a low fire in the oven. The family joke is that that
is why they are half-baked.
And conversely, of course, full-term babies can be born weak or sickly
for no reason that would have been apparent in the Middle Ages. Or
now, for that matter.
Katy
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-24 16:21:03
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "eileen"
> <ebatesparrot@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
> wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
> baby 3-4 weeks early
> > would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me
on
> that??
>
>
> Very likely if otherwise healthy. A full-term baby now weighs
about 8
> pounds, and probably did then, too, at least among the upper
classes,
> since people were otherwise about the same size they are now. (The
> popular notion that "people were smaller then" is pretty much a
fallacy
> as far as the 14th and 15th centuries are concerned.) A baby
usually
> puts on a pound or a pound and a half of weight in its ninth month
in
> utero, so an eight-month baby would still be a quite viable 6 or 7
> pounds. Most of the time even a seven-month baby has organ systems
> well enough developed for it to survive, with careful nursing care
that
> would have been available to the upper classes then, and we know of
> some notable seven-monthers, though I can't think of any at the
moment.
> But a baby of five pounds or so can't maintain its own body
> temperature, and in turn it can't digest food, so things would
become
> iffy at less than seven months, back then. But I'm sure most
people
> know of an instance or two of very premature babies surviving
without
> modern medical help. A friend of mine is one of a pair of twins
born
> at six months, at a remote New Mexico ranch during a February
> blizzard. She and her sister both fit in a shoebox, and their
> grandmother put them on the open door of the stove and kept them
warm
> with the heat of a low fire in the oven. The family joke is that
that
> is why they are half-baked.
>
> And conversely, of course, full-term babies can be born weak or
sickly
> for no reason that would have been apparent in the Middle Ages. Or
> now, for that matter.
>
> Katy
I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for its
dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
Doing well now, I'm pleased to add.
It just isn't possible physically to rule out Edward having been
early or late (Jones overstated his case on that score). It's a much
messier - and therefore more fun - problem than that.
I can't say, however, that I go along with Cecily being safe at
Pontoise, or that it was normal for ladies to be resident on campaign
(Michael Jones has specifically stated that it was not done, but I
guess we ought to ask someone with less of a vested interest - though
I've never met anyone who didn't get heated about this particular
question). I can't somehow see even the re-enactment people allowing
their pseudo Duchesses to hang around the tents.
In fact, I imagine the prayers in the cathedral were probably more to
keep Cecily happy than for anything else.
>
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "eileen"
> <ebatesparrot@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
> wrote:
> > >
>
> >
> > I dont have a clue about this one- but - Im just wondering if a
> baby 3-4 weeks early
> > would have survived in the 15th century - can anyone enlighten me
on
> that??
>
>
> Very likely if otherwise healthy. A full-term baby now weighs
about 8
> pounds, and probably did then, too, at least among the upper
classes,
> since people were otherwise about the same size they are now. (The
> popular notion that "people were smaller then" is pretty much a
fallacy
> as far as the 14th and 15th centuries are concerned.) A baby
usually
> puts on a pound or a pound and a half of weight in its ninth month
in
> utero, so an eight-month baby would still be a quite viable 6 or 7
> pounds. Most of the time even a seven-month baby has organ systems
> well enough developed for it to survive, with careful nursing care
that
> would have been available to the upper classes then, and we know of
> some notable seven-monthers, though I can't think of any at the
moment.
> But a baby of five pounds or so can't maintain its own body
> temperature, and in turn it can't digest food, so things would
become
> iffy at less than seven months, back then. But I'm sure most
people
> know of an instance or two of very premature babies surviving
without
> modern medical help. A friend of mine is one of a pair of twins
born
> at six months, at a remote New Mexico ranch during a February
> blizzard. She and her sister both fit in a shoebox, and their
> grandmother put them on the open door of the stove and kept them
warm
> with the heat of a low fire in the oven. The family joke is that
that
> is why they are half-baked.
>
> And conversely, of course, full-term babies can be born weak or
sickly
> for no reason that would have been apparent in the Middle Ages. Or
> now, for that matter.
>
> Katy
I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for its
dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
Doing well now, I'm pleased to add.
It just isn't possible physically to rule out Edward having been
early or late (Jones overstated his case on that score). It's a much
messier - and therefore more fun - problem than that.
I can't say, however, that I go along with Cecily being safe at
Pontoise, or that it was normal for ladies to be resident on campaign
(Michael Jones has specifically stated that it was not done, but I
guess we ought to ask someone with less of a vested interest - though
I've never met anyone who didn't get heated about this particular
question). I can't somehow see even the re-enactment people allowing
their pseudo Duchesses to hang around the tents.
In fact, I imagine the prayers in the cathedral were probably more to
keep Cecily happy than for anything else.
>
Re: Where did you put your copy of the Holy Blood?
2006-03-24 18:55:19
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
> Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
> even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
> The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
> attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for
its
> dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
> baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
> However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
> been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
> Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
> tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
Almost exactly the same thing happened to my doctor, who is an OB/GYN
specialist to boot. Her unborn baby stopped growing and was
delivered at 36 weeks or so by emergency C-section, weighing only 4
pounds. The cause was blood clots in the placenta cutting off most
of the circulation to the baby.
So full-term does not guarantee perfect health. All sorts of problems
during delivery itself can adversely affect a baby that was in
perfect health a few hours ago.
Katy
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
> Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
> even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
> The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
> attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for
its
> dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
> baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
> However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
> been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
> Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
> tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
Almost exactly the same thing happened to my doctor, who is an OB/GYN
specialist to boot. Her unborn baby stopped growing and was
delivered at 36 weeks or so by emergency C-section, weighing only 4
pounds. The cause was blood clots in the placenta cutting off most
of the circulation to the baby.
So full-term does not guarantee perfect health. All sorts of problems
during delivery itself can adversely affect a baby that was in
perfect health a few hours ago.
Katy
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-24 22:21:35
Leaving aside for a mo the vexing question as to whether Cecily accompanied husband to
Pontoise or whether he had visited her whereever she was at - what other clues are there
that might help us decide on whether Edward was a bastard or no.
1.Mancini tells us Cecily flew into a rage on news of Edwards marriage to La Woodville
announcing that Edward was not her husbands son - (in fact at times I get the impression
that she didnt really like Edward) can we trust Mancini on this?
2.On the other hand Vergil (bear in mind he was The Weasle's aka H Tudors toady) tells us
that Cecily complained bitterly that she was being branded an adulteress.
Whose version of events is true?
3. It did seem that the story of Edwards illigitimacy had been bandied about for a very
long time - though I presume the version of his dad being an archer was merely the
French being facetious - I cant believe Proud Cis would have gotten that close to the
garrison! On the other hand was she lonely\did she look from her window and see this
drop dead gorgeous man doing archery practice or whatever they done in those days. Nah
I just cant see it myself.
Am I correct in thinking that Richard and George both resembled their dad whereas
Edward did not! Of course not resembling your dad does not prove anything. It would
just seem that Edward was continuously dogged by these rumours - helpfully spread by
Clarence, which was more than likely one of the factors that led Edward to out him. Would
Clarence have just concocted a story like this - just dreamed it up without any substance
behind it!!? Oh if only Cecily had kept a diary!
Eileen
>
> >
>
> I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
> very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
> surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
> was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
> a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
> been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
> Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
> Edward's having been premature.
>
>
>
Pontoise or whether he had visited her whereever she was at - what other clues are there
that might help us decide on whether Edward was a bastard or no.
1.Mancini tells us Cecily flew into a rage on news of Edwards marriage to La Woodville
announcing that Edward was not her husbands son - (in fact at times I get the impression
that she didnt really like Edward) can we trust Mancini on this?
2.On the other hand Vergil (bear in mind he was The Weasle's aka H Tudors toady) tells us
that Cecily complained bitterly that she was being branded an adulteress.
Whose version of events is true?
3. It did seem that the story of Edwards illigitimacy had been bandied about for a very
long time - though I presume the version of his dad being an archer was merely the
French being facetious - I cant believe Proud Cis would have gotten that close to the
garrison! On the other hand was she lonely\did she look from her window and see this
drop dead gorgeous man doing archery practice or whatever they done in those days. Nah
I just cant see it myself.
Am I correct in thinking that Richard and George both resembled their dad whereas
Edward did not! Of course not resembling your dad does not prove anything. It would
just seem that Edward was continuously dogged by these rumours - helpfully spread by
Clarence, which was more than likely one of the factors that led Edward to out him. Would
Clarence have just concocted a story like this - just dreamed it up without any substance
behind it!!? Oh if only Cecily had kept a diary!
Eileen
>
> >
>
> I don't know. Some babies born that early are quite healthy and need
> very little special care. Others are not. Joanna Laynesmith, indeed,
> surmises that Edward was a bit premature and that was why the baptism
> was a private one in the chapel. However, prematurity didn't prevent
> a big baptism for Prince Arthur, and important baptisms seem to have
> been prepared for well in advance of the birth.
> Nor is there any contemporary or near-contemporary tradition of
> Edward's having been premature.
>
>
>
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 12:17:31
--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
>
> Leaving aside for a mo the vexing question as to whether Cecily
accompanied husband to
> Pontoise or whether he had visited her whereever she was at - what
other clues are there
> that might help us decide on whether Edward was a bastard or no.
>
> 1.Mancini tells us Cecily flew into a rage on news of Edwards
marriage to La Woodville
> announcing that Edward was not her husbands son - (in fact at times
I get the impression
> that she didnt really like Edward) can we trust Mancini on this?
>
> 2.On the other hand Vergil (bear in mind he was The Weasle's aka H
Tudors toady) tells us
> that Cecily complained bitterly that she was being branded an
adulteress.
>
> Whose version of events is true?
1) Mancini:-
"Even his mother fell into such a frenzy that she offered to submit
to a public enquiry, and asserted that Edward was not the offspring
of her husband the Duke of York, but conceived in adultery, and
therefore in no wise worthy of the honour of kingship."
2) Vergil:-
After Richard had Edward IV proclaimed a bastard at Pauls
Cross, "Cecily, King Edward's mother as is before said, being faslely
accused of adultery, complained afterward in sundry places to right
many noble men, whereof some yet live, of that great injury which her
so Richard had done her."
In theory, both stories could be true. However, if you ask me which I
would put more confidence in, it is Mancini.
Mancini was in England during the first half of 1483, and had
completed his account by mid December of the same year. This appears
to have been a story that surfaced immediately after Edward's death.
He had, at the very least, I think, genuinely heard this tale, though
it may indicate nothing more than the uncertainty regarding the
future of the monarchy that existed during those dangerous weeks.
Mancini's story bears a strange similarity to More's tale of Cecily
flying into a rage, objecting to Edward that he was already
contracted to "Elizabeth" Lucy, and getting Lucy to submit herself to
a public enquiry on the subject (which, of course, ends with E. Lucy
admitting that Edward had never actually gone so far as to promise
her marriage, just allowed her to hope for it).
Vergil was actually writing for Henry VIII, not Henry VII, so it was
imperative that he assure his readers of the legitimacy of Henry's
Yorkist antecedents, particularly as HVIII had been very fond of his
mother. He is also writing a very long time after the event, and well
after Cecily's own death. He says some of the noble men Cecily
complained to are still alive, but he doesn't name them. And, despite
claims to the contrary by many historians, Vergil can be very
misleading when he wants to be.
Mancini refers to both a precontract (he did not have the lady's
name) and the sermon declaring Edward IV's own bastardy, but he does
not mention any objection by Cecily to the latter. It is hard to see
that she can have been too angry about it, as Richard continued to
operate out of Baynards Castle.
Apparently, Ralph Shaa, who gave that sermon at Paul's Cross, was a
member of Queens' College, Cambridge, which Richard had endowed, and
it has been suggested that he hoped that helping Richard to the
throne would ensure further patronage for the College. It may be,
therefore, that the speech was his own idea rather than Richard's.
It is possible that Cecily:-
a) angrily declared Edward a bastard after his marriage
b) objected to the claim being brought up again so publicly in 1483,
but didn't hold Richard primarily to blame for the sermon.
What do we know of her relationship with Clarence? He was always
repeating the bastardy story, after all.
>
> 3. It did seem that the story of Edwards illigitimacy had been
bandied about for a very
> long time - though I presume the version of his dad being an archer
was merely the
> French being facetious - I cant believe Proud Cis would have gotten
that close to the
> garrison! On the other hand was she lonely\did she look from her
window and see this
> drop dead gorgeous man doing archery practice or whatever they done
in those days. Nah
> I just cant see it myself.
She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the couple
setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record of
where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
>
> Am I correct in thinking that Richard and George both resembled
their dad whereas
> Edward did not! Of course not resembling your dad does not prove
anything. It would
> just seem that Edward was continuously dogged by these rumours -
helpfully spread by
> Clarence, which was more than likely one of the factors that led
Edward to out him. Would
> Clarence have just concocted a story like this - just dreamed it up
without any substance
> behind it!!? Oh if only Cecily had kept a diary!
It was apparently Warwick who told the French court about it, but
Clarence definitely seems to have believed it. He didn't drop the
idea once Warwick was gone, and it is stated in the attainder against
him in 1478 that he had been making this treasonable claim again.
Both Edward and Clarence became paranoid about each other before the
end, and Clarence had evidently convinced himself that Edward was out
to destroy his own issue.
Marie
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
>
> Leaving aside for a mo the vexing question as to whether Cecily
accompanied husband to
> Pontoise or whether he had visited her whereever she was at - what
other clues are there
> that might help us decide on whether Edward was a bastard or no.
>
> 1.Mancini tells us Cecily flew into a rage on news of Edwards
marriage to La Woodville
> announcing that Edward was not her husbands son - (in fact at times
I get the impression
> that she didnt really like Edward) can we trust Mancini on this?
>
> 2.On the other hand Vergil (bear in mind he was The Weasle's aka H
Tudors toady) tells us
> that Cecily complained bitterly that she was being branded an
adulteress.
>
> Whose version of events is true?
1) Mancini:-
"Even his mother fell into such a frenzy that she offered to submit
to a public enquiry, and asserted that Edward was not the offspring
of her husband the Duke of York, but conceived in adultery, and
therefore in no wise worthy of the honour of kingship."
2) Vergil:-
After Richard had Edward IV proclaimed a bastard at Pauls
Cross, "Cecily, King Edward's mother as is before said, being faslely
accused of adultery, complained afterward in sundry places to right
many noble men, whereof some yet live, of that great injury which her
so Richard had done her."
In theory, both stories could be true. However, if you ask me which I
would put more confidence in, it is Mancini.
Mancini was in England during the first half of 1483, and had
completed his account by mid December of the same year. This appears
to have been a story that surfaced immediately after Edward's death.
He had, at the very least, I think, genuinely heard this tale, though
it may indicate nothing more than the uncertainty regarding the
future of the monarchy that existed during those dangerous weeks.
Mancini's story bears a strange similarity to More's tale of Cecily
flying into a rage, objecting to Edward that he was already
contracted to "Elizabeth" Lucy, and getting Lucy to submit herself to
a public enquiry on the subject (which, of course, ends with E. Lucy
admitting that Edward had never actually gone so far as to promise
her marriage, just allowed her to hope for it).
Vergil was actually writing for Henry VIII, not Henry VII, so it was
imperative that he assure his readers of the legitimacy of Henry's
Yorkist antecedents, particularly as HVIII had been very fond of his
mother. He is also writing a very long time after the event, and well
after Cecily's own death. He says some of the noble men Cecily
complained to are still alive, but he doesn't name them. And, despite
claims to the contrary by many historians, Vergil can be very
misleading when he wants to be.
Mancini refers to both a precontract (he did not have the lady's
name) and the sermon declaring Edward IV's own bastardy, but he does
not mention any objection by Cecily to the latter. It is hard to see
that she can have been too angry about it, as Richard continued to
operate out of Baynards Castle.
Apparently, Ralph Shaa, who gave that sermon at Paul's Cross, was a
member of Queens' College, Cambridge, which Richard had endowed, and
it has been suggested that he hoped that helping Richard to the
throne would ensure further patronage for the College. It may be,
therefore, that the speech was his own idea rather than Richard's.
It is possible that Cecily:-
a) angrily declared Edward a bastard after his marriage
b) objected to the claim being brought up again so publicly in 1483,
but didn't hold Richard primarily to blame for the sermon.
What do we know of her relationship with Clarence? He was always
repeating the bastardy story, after all.
>
> 3. It did seem that the story of Edwards illigitimacy had been
bandied about for a very
> long time - though I presume the version of his dad being an archer
was merely the
> French being facetious - I cant believe Proud Cis would have gotten
that close to the
> garrison! On the other hand was she lonely\did she look from her
window and see this
> drop dead gorgeous man doing archery practice or whatever they done
in those days. Nah
> I just cant see it myself.
She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the couple
setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record of
where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
>
> Am I correct in thinking that Richard and George both resembled
their dad whereas
> Edward did not! Of course not resembling your dad does not prove
anything. It would
> just seem that Edward was continuously dogged by these rumours -
helpfully spread by
> Clarence, which was more than likely one of the factors that led
Edward to out him. Would
> Clarence have just concocted a story like this - just dreamed it up
without any substance
> behind it!!? Oh if only Cecily had kept a diary!
It was apparently Warwick who told the French court about it, but
Clarence definitely seems to have believed it. He didn't drop the
idea once Warwick was gone, and it is stated in the attainder against
him in 1478 that he had been making this treasonable claim again.
Both Edward and Clarence became paranoid about each other before the
end, and Clarence had evidently convinced himself that Edward was out
to destroy his own issue.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 14:13:53
In February, my daughter had her second son, who weighed in at just
under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what was
termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
> >
> > I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
> > Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
> > even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
> > The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
> > attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for
> its
> > dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
> > baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
> > However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
> > been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
> > Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
> > tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
>
>
> Almost exactly the same thing happened to my doctor, who is an OB/GYN
> specialist to boot. Her unborn baby stopped growing and was
> delivered at 36 weeks or so by emergency C-section, weighing only 4
> pounds. The cause was blood clots in the placenta cutting off most
> of the circulation to the baby.
>
> So full-term does not guarantee perfect health. All sorts of problems
> during delivery itself can adversely affect a baby that was in
> perfect health a few hours ago.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what was
termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
> >
> > I can only concur that maturity isn't the be-all and end-all.
> > Incidentally, the liver is actually the last organ to mature, and
> > even fullterm babies can be born a bit jaundiced.
> > The health of the placenta, and whether it has remained properly
> > attached to the uterus, are critical in how well a baby does for
> its
> > dates. As an instance, a colleague of mine recently had a 37-week
> > baby, 4lb and requiring special care.
> > However, had this particular baby been born fullterm it would have
> > been worse off still, and would probably not have survived at all.
> > Scans had revealed that the little chap hadn't grown a jot or a
> > tittle for weeks, and so he was delivered by emergency section.
>
>
> Almost exactly the same thing happened to my doctor, who is an OB/GYN
> specialist to boot. Her unborn baby stopped growing and was
> delivered at 36 weeks or so by emergency C-section, weighing only 4
> pounds. The cause was blood clots in the placenta cutting off most
> of the circulation to the baby.
>
> So full-term does not guarantee perfect health. All sorts of problems
> during delivery itself can adversely affect a baby that was in
> perfect health a few hours ago.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 15:54:02
--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> In February, my daughter had her second son, who weighed in at just
> under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
> was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what
was
> termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
Congratulations, Bill. May your grandchildren bring you great joy.
Katy
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> In February, my daughter had her second son, who weighed in at just
> under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
> was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what
was
> termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
Congratulations, Bill. May your grandchildren bring you great joy.
Katy
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 16:47:22
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
> She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
couple
> setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
of
> where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
<marie@...> wrote:
> She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
couple
> setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
of
> where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 17:03:03
Many thanks. They do!
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > In February, my daughter had her second son, who weighed in at just
> > under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
> > was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what
> was
> > termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
>
>
> Congratulations, Bill. May your grandchildren bring you great joy.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > In February, my daughter had her second son, who weighed in at just
> > under six pounds. He was carried to about two weeks before term, and
> > was born in perfect health. My daughter did have a problem with what
> was
> > termed 'aging placenta'. For this reason, she was induced early.
>
>
> Congratulations, Bill. May your grandchildren bring you great joy.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 17:15:30
Stranger things have certainly happened.
Lord only knows how many of the Plantagenets were actually Plantagenets.
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that Edward's being the typical
Plantagenet actually came only from his mother's Beaufort bloodline,
rather than from this father's Clarence and York bloodlines. Of course,
if he were a Plantagenet only through his mother's folk, he would be a
Lancastrian, wouldn't he?
I think I need a drink.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
>
>
> > She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
> couple
> > setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
> of
> > where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> > was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
>
>
> That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
> child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
> waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
> Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
> 1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
> marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
> unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
> when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
> the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
> unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
> like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
>
> Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
> first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
> times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
> when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
> believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
> her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
> and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
> logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
> annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
> reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
> to the Duke.
>
> So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
> If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
> barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
> connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
> relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
> would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
> of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
> lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
> cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
> wasn't her, it was him.)
>
> So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
> marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
> donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
> daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
> dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
> conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
> in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
> July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
> as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
> it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
> after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
> and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
> along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
> children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
> absurdity.
>
> But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
> one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
> were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
> hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
> new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
> household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
>
> Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
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Lord only knows how many of the Plantagenets were actually Plantagenets.
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that Edward's being the typical
Plantagenet actually came only from his mother's Beaufort bloodline,
rather than from this father's Clarence and York bloodlines. Of course,
if he were a Plantagenet only through his mother's folk, he would be a
Lancastrian, wouldn't he?
I think I need a drink.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
>
>
> > She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
> couple
> > setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
> of
> > where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> > was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
>
>
> That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
> child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
> waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
> Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
> 1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
> marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
> unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
> when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
> the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
> unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
> like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
>
> Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
> first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
> times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
> when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
> believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
> her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
> and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
> logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
> annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
> reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
> to the Duke.
>
> So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
> If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
> barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
> connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
> relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
> would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
> of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
> lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
> cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
> wasn't her, it was him.)
>
> So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
> marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
> donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
> daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
> dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
> conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
> in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
> July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
> as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
> it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
> after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
> and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
> along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
> children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
> absurdity.
>
> But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
> one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
> were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
> hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
> new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
> household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
>
> Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
>
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 18:27:09
--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@> wrote:
>
>
> > She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
> couple
> > setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
> of
> > where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that
she
> > was with her husband during his first stint in France, for
instance.
>
>
> That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
> child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the
Duke
> waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
> Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
> 1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated
the
> marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
> unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
> when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names
says "after
> the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
> unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
> like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
>
> Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir
at
> first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
> times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
> when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
> believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
> her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an
heir
> and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
> logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
> annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
> reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not
appeal
> to the Duke.
>
> So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says
What
> If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
> barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
> connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also
didn't
> relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
> would not be able to marry again, and there would go all
possibility
> of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
> lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
> cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
> wasn't her, it was him.)
>
> So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
> marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
> donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
> daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But
he
> dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
> conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
> in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
> July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a
spare
> as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not
at
> it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a
year
> after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
> and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
> along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
> children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
> absurdity.
>
> But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the
only
> one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if
they
> were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
> hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
> new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
> household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
>
> Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
First, my congratulations to Bill too. That's lovely news.
If (just for more fun, of course) anybody wants another really wild
idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to the
Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
were really half-brother and sister. . .
Now, okay, that's wicked.
Marie
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@> wrote:
>
>
> > She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
> couple
> > setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
> of
> > where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that
she
> > was with her husband during his first stint in France, for
instance.
>
>
> That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
> child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the
Duke
> waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
> Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
> 1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated
the
> marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
> unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
> when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names
says "after
> the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
> unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
> like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
>
> Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir
at
> first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
> times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
> when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
> believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
> her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an
heir
> and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
> logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
> annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
> reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not
appeal
> to the Duke.
>
> So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says
What
> If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
> barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
> connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also
didn't
> relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
> would not be able to marry again, and there would go all
possibility
> of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
> lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
> cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
> wasn't her, it was him.)
>
> So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
> marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
> donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
> daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But
he
> dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
> conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
> in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
> July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a
spare
> as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not
at
> it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a
year
> after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
> and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
> along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
> children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
> absurdity.
>
> But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the
only
> one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if
they
> were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
> hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
> new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
> household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
>
> Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
First, my congratulations to Bill too. That's lovely news.
If (just for more fun, of course) anybody wants another really wild
idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to the
Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
were really half-brother and sister. . .
Now, okay, that's wicked.
Marie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 18:31:26
i can think of other scenarios regarding the barreness of cecily.
was richard in france with regards to jeanne d'arc etc?
there was a war going on, ergo the young knight could have been overseas, away from the homefires.
he may have even had a concubine, so no need for cecily to be at his beck and call..and when they finally did get it together, did cecily miscarry a few times?
this coupled with richard's warrior absences could explain the long barrenness of cecily. if you look at the birthdates of her children..while she did pop out babies almost annually, there are a few non producing years.
1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
.. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
almost half of cecily's 13 children die young, she may not have produced the healthiest of children, some of whom never made it beyond the womb so to speak.
also, impotence may not be the only reason richard and cecily did not reproduce early. richard may have been sterile, or had sterility problems.
some adoptive parents are infertile, until the arrival of the first adopted child.
also it is not unknown for a couple's biochemistry to not be compatible. my ex husband and i had this problem.
it is possible a change of diet or water could have assisted in making the couple more fertile. there may have been several visits to midwives/doctors/alchemists to give the couple advice.
and it is also very possible that richard and cecily had an "open marriage" arrangement too. not uncommon amongst the aristrocracy, even today. kind of a don't ask, don't tell arrangement...as long as the heir and spare are in existance.
also to be considered..if cecily had a record of miscarrying and infants dying young. it would be significantly easier for richard to turn a blind eye to any indescretions, simply because it was believed the issue of any relationship had little chance of survival.
ou-er..and another thought..when e4 is confronted by cecily regarding his woodville marriage...it is recorded that he justifies the relationship with a widow, and his own acknowledged illegit(s)..that at least he knows they are both fertile..interesting statement, now when you think on it as compared to this line of discussion. did he deliver his mother a "slap in the face" with said comment?
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
> She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
couple
> setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
of
> where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
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was richard in france with regards to jeanne d'arc etc?
there was a war going on, ergo the young knight could have been overseas, away from the homefires.
he may have even had a concubine, so no need for cecily to be at his beck and call..and when they finally did get it together, did cecily miscarry a few times?
this coupled with richard's warrior absences could explain the long barrenness of cecily. if you look at the birthdates of her children..while she did pop out babies almost annually, there are a few non producing years.
1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
.. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
almost half of cecily's 13 children die young, she may not have produced the healthiest of children, some of whom never made it beyond the womb so to speak.
also, impotence may not be the only reason richard and cecily did not reproduce early. richard may have been sterile, or had sterility problems.
some adoptive parents are infertile, until the arrival of the first adopted child.
also it is not unknown for a couple's biochemistry to not be compatible. my ex husband and i had this problem.
it is possible a change of diet or water could have assisted in making the couple more fertile. there may have been several visits to midwives/doctors/alchemists to give the couple advice.
and it is also very possible that richard and cecily had an "open marriage" arrangement too. not uncommon amongst the aristrocracy, even today. kind of a don't ask, don't tell arrangement...as long as the heir and spare are in existance.
also to be considered..if cecily had a record of miscarrying and infants dying young. it would be significantly easier for richard to turn a blind eye to any indescretions, simply because it was believed the issue of any relationship had little chance of survival.
ou-er..and another thought..when e4 is confronted by cecily regarding his woodville marriage...it is recorded that he justifies the relationship with a widow, and his own acknowledged illegit(s)..that at least he knows they are both fertile..interesting statement, now when you think on it as compared to this line of discussion. did he deliver his mother a "slap in the face" with said comment?
roslyn
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
> She might have been lonely. There were nine years between the
couple
> setting up together and the birth of Anne, and there is no record
of
> where Cecily lived during that time. There is no evidence that she
> was with her husband during his first stint in France, for instance.
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
SPONSORED LINKS
United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 18:40:23
mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of course) anybody wants another really wild
idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to the
Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
were really half-brother and sister. . .
Now, okay, that's wicked.
Marie
oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a number of children.
what a busy boy he could have been.
such a thought could be worthy of further research.
roslyn
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idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to the
Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
were really half-brother and sister. . .
Now, okay, that's wicked.
Marie
oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a number of children.
what a busy boy he could have been.
such a thought could be worthy of further research.
roslyn
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 19:12:27
> 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison Weir's
book on royal genealogy. Also, Elizabeth, of course, was born 1444,
the year after Edmund. Thomas was born in December 1450, which may
account for Rous' assertion that Richard lay two yewars in his
mother's womb.
The skipped year between Elizabeth and Margaret is interesting, isn't
it? The later gaps could be due to a decline in fertility.
The two closest of all were Edmund and Elizabeth, with less than 11
months between them.
Another reason the couple may have been late starting their family is
if Richard didn't really want Cecily for a wife. She was closely
related to the King, but that's the Lancastrian king, of course, and
he may have seen the marriage in the early days as a political
straitjacket. But, as I said before, a very difficult match to get
annulled, for all that the couple were both underage when it took
place. I don't know if Cecily came with much money. She was not an
heiress, and Johnson doesn't mention a dowry. I suppose Westmorland
could have got away with not paying one, since York was his ward.
> .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison Weir's
book on royal genealogy. Also, Elizabeth, of course, was born 1444,
the year after Edmund. Thomas was born in December 1450, which may
account for Rous' assertion that Richard lay two yewars in his
mother's womb.
The skipped year between Elizabeth and Margaret is interesting, isn't
it? The later gaps could be due to a decline in fertility.
The two closest of all were Edmund and Elizabeth, with less than 11
months between them.
Another reason the couple may have been late starting their family is
if Richard didn't really want Cecily for a wife. She was closely
related to the King, but that's the Lancastrian king, of course, and
he may have seen the marriage in the early days as a political
straitjacket. But, as I said before, a very difficult match to get
annulled, for all that the couple were both underage when it took
place. I don't know if Cecily came with much money. She was not an
heiress, and Johnson doesn't mention a dowry. I suppose Westmorland
could have got away with not paying one, since York was his ward.
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 19:29:28
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
>
> Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
Weir's
> book on royal genealogy.
I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
iffing.
It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
Katy
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
>
> Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
Weir's
> book on royal genealogy.
I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
iffing.
It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
Katy
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-25 19:39:43
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
course) anybody wants another really wild
> idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
the
> Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> were really half-brother and sister. . .
> Now, okay, that's wicked.
>
> Marie
> oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
number of children.
> what a busy boy he could have been.
> such a thought could be worthy of further research.
I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
couple for the years in question.
I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
back to England with them.
Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
and...uh...others.
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
course) anybody wants another really wild
> idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
the
> Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> were really half-brother and sister. . .
> Now, okay, that's wicked.
>
> Marie
> oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
number of children.
> what a busy boy he could have been.
> such a thought could be worthy of further research.
I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
couple for the years in question.
I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
back to England with them.
Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
and...uh...others.
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 20:00:37
Wasn't there something in the popular or academic scientific press a
number of years back about the incidence of low sperm count among
motorcycle riders? If there is indeed a problem with motorcycles, I
wonder what problems, if any, might be faced by those who spend an
inordinate amount of time in the saddle.
I know that men with prostate problems have trouble on bikes and horses
(and sometimes with cars), but this problem is slightly different.
Just a thought.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
> >
> > > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
> >
> > Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> > appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
> Weir's
> > book on royal genealogy.
>
> I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
> article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
> iffing.
>
> It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
> years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
>
> Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
> tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
> around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
number of years back about the incidence of low sperm count among
motorcycle riders? If there is indeed a problem with motorcycles, I
wonder what problems, if any, might be faced by those who spend an
inordinate amount of time in the saddle.
I know that men with prostate problems have trouble on bikes and horses
(and sometimes with cars), but this problem is slightly different.
Just a thought.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@...> wrote:
> >
> > > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
> >
> > Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> > appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
> Weir's
> > book on royal genealogy.
>
> I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
> article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
> iffing.
>
> It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
> years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
>
> Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
> tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
> around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
>
> Katy
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
> * Visit your group "
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
>
> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
> <mailto:[email protected]?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 20:13:45
Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
Again, dunno...
*/*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> course) anybody wants another really wild
> > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> the
> > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> >
> > Marie
> > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> number of children.
> > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
>
>
> I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> couple for the years in question.
>
> I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> back to England with them.
>
>
> Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> and...uh...others.
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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>
>
>
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>
'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
Again, dunno...
*/*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
oregonkaty wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> course) anybody wants another really wild
> > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> the
> > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> >
> > Marie
> > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> number of children.
> > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
>
>
> I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> couple for the years in question.
>
> I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> back to England with them.
>
>
> Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> and...uh...others.
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-25 20:19:12
Just had another thought:
Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
Bill Barber wrote:
> Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
>
> Again, dunno...
>
> */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
>
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > the
> > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > >
> > > Marie
> > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > number of children.
> > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> >
> >
> > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > couple for the years in question.
> >
> > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > back to England with them.
> >
> >
> > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > and...uh...others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
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> >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
> >
> >
> >
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> Call united kingdom
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>
> United kingdom phone card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
> United kingdom hotel
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
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Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
Bill Barber wrote:
> Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
>
> Again, dunno...
>
> */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
>
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > the
> > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > >
> > > Marie
> > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > number of children.
> > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> >
> >
> > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > couple for the years in question.
> >
> > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > back to England with them.
> >
> >
> > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > and...uh...others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
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> >
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>
> >
> >
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>
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> United kingdom vacation
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-26 00:21:46
wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._ by John
Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
"In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the Gentry of
England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient Families,
that have always born a Coat of Arms....
"A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour, he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable Employment upon him.
"The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
roslyn
Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Just had another thought:
Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
Bill Barber wrote:
> Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
>
> Again, dunno...
>
> */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
>
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > the
> > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > >
> > > Marie
> > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > number of children.
> > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> >
> >
> > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > couple for the years in question.
> >
> > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > back to England with them.
> >
> >
> > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > and...uh...others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
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> >
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
> >
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> Call united kingdom
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._ by John
Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
"In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the Gentry of
England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient Families,
that have always born a Coat of Arms....
"A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour, he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable Employment upon him.
"The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
roslyn
Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Just had another thought:
Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
Bill Barber wrote:
> Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
>
> Again, dunno...
>
> */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
>
>
> oregonkaty wrote:
> > --- In , fayre rose
> > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > the
> > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > >
> > > Marie
> > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > number of children.
> > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> >
> >
> > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > couple for the years in question.
> >
> > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > back to England with them.
> >
> >
> > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > and...uh...others.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
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> >
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>
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> >
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>
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>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-26 03:03:59
Sometimes it happens that way for no obvious reason.
A later example would be Catherine de Medici and her husband Henri 11 of France, they took ten years before the first child and ended up having alot. Maybe not a very choice bunch but that is another issue. Even if HII was in raptures to Diane de Poiters he still did his duty by his wife in those early years.
An earlier example would be King John and his second wife. About seven years before they had the first child and John married her from falling in love, or lust, with her so it was sure to have been sexual relations. Then they ended up with four. John have had several bastards even if no children with his first wife.
Helen
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
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A later example would be Catherine de Medici and her husband Henri 11 of France, they took ten years before the first child and ended up having alot. Maybe not a very choice bunch but that is another issue. Even if HII was in raptures to Diane de Poiters he still did his duty by his wife in those early years.
An earlier example would be King John and his second wife. About seven years before they had the first child and John married her from falling in love, or lust, with her so it was sure to have been sexual relations. Then they ended up with four. John have had several bastards even if no children with his first wife.
Helen
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
That nine years between their marriage and the birth of their first
child has always puzzled me. And that's assuming Cecily and the Duke
waited to start having marital relations till she was 15 or 16.
Cecily was born in 1415 and her marriage to York was arranged in
1425. She was 10 and he was 14. When they actually consummated the
marriage and actually started living together as man and wife is
unclear. But Cecily's first child, Anne, was not born till 1439,
when she was 24. And the rhyme of their children's names says "after
the period of long barrenness" which to me implies they were trying
unsuccessfully to have children. Otherwise you'd expect something
like "period of long absence/separation/apartness", meter be damned.
Indeed, York would hae been foolish not to have tried for an heir at
first and every opportunity. He needed one. Those were perilous
times for him -- to wait till he was 30 to father his first child,
when he was already married, would have been foolhardy. I can't
believe that he simply didn't happen to have Cecily at hand during
her every fertile period for nine years. And since he needed an heir
and she didn't produce one for all those years, you'd think the
logical course would be for himto petition to have the marriage
annulled, and try again with another woman. There are practical
reasons, as Marie outlined recently, why this course would not appeal
to the Duke.
So...the what-iffer in me waves its hand for attention and says What
If it was the Duke? What if he was the one responsible for that
barrenness, and he not only diudn't want to lose the political
connections and the money Cecily brought to the union, he also didn't
relish any possibility of his impotence revealed? If it was, he
would not be able to marry again, and there would go all possibility
of producing an heir, and when he died there too would go the York
lineage and holdings. (Impotence would pretty much have to be the
cause of the problem, in this scenario, for it to be clear that it
wasn't her, it was him.)
So what if instead the couple, who both had much to lose if their
marriage was terminated, decided to bring in a substitute, a sperm
donor as we would phrase it? Success! Cecily has a baby. But a
daughter, unfortunately. Another try, another child, A boy! But he
dies. Another visit by the designated hitter, and Edward is
conceived. This assumes that Henry died sometime between his birth
in February 1441 and the time Edward would have been conceived in
July of that year. Or maybe the Duke just wanted to try for a spare
as well as an heir, while he was at it, or rather while he was not at
it but someone else was. And since Edmund was born less than a year
after Edward, say Henry had already died, Edward was now the heir,
and the Duke now needed a spare again. But then Elizabeth comes
along less than a year after Edmund. Cecily continues to produce
children about as fast as nature allows...my theory collapses into
absurdity.
But still, I enjoy the speculation of What If Edward was not the only
one of Cecily's children who was not fathered by York? What if they
were all catered? I'd think it was the same man each time -- there
hardly seems enough time between the conceptions to audition a
new...er...collaborator. Was there any one male member of the York
household who was on hand at the correct time, each time?
Just a thought, tongue in cheek.
Katy
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-26 14:25:29
Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
fayre rose wrote:
> wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
>
> The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
> Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> by John
> Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
>
> "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> Gentry of
> England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> Families,
> that have always born a Coat of Arms....
>
> "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
> ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
>
> But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> Employment upon him.
>
> "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
> Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
>
> All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
>
> i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
>
>
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Just had another thought:
>
> Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
>
> I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
>
> Bill Barber wrote:
> > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> >
> > Again, dunno...
> >
> > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> >
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > the
> > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > >
> > > > Marie
> > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > number of children.
> > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > couple for the years in question.
> > >
> > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > back to England with them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > and...uh...others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
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>
> >
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> > >
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>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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fayre rose wrote:
> wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
>
> The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
> Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> by John
> Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
>
> "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> Gentry of
> England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> Families,
> that have always born a Coat of Arms....
>
> "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
> ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
>
> But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> Employment upon him.
>
> "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
> Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
>
> All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
>
> i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
>
>
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Just had another thought:
>
> Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
>
> I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
>
> Bill Barber wrote:
> > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> >
> > Again, dunno...
> >
> > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> >
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > the
> > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > >
> > > > Marie
> > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > number of children.
> > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > couple for the years in question.
> > >
> > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > back to England with them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > and...uh...others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>
>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > SPONSORED LINKS
> > United kingdom calling card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-27 01:07:43
oh don't let one little failure put you off...it's try, try and try again...:-))
who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure out how younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo, even with the spelling style of the medieval era.
and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why even insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
later
roslyn
Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
fayre rose wrote:
> wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
>
> The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
> Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> by John
> Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
>
> "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> Gentry of
> England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> Families,
> that have always born a Coat of Arms....
>
> "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
> ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
>
> But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> Employment upon him.
>
> "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
> Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
>
> All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
>
> i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
>
>
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Just had another thought:
>
> Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
>
> I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
>
> Bill Barber wrote:
> > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> >
> > Again, dunno...
> >
> > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> >
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > the
> > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > >
> > > > Marie
> > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > number of children.
> > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > couple for the years in question.
> > >
> > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > back to England with them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > and...uh...others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>
>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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> > United kingdom calling card
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
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who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure out how younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo, even with the spelling style of the medieval era.
and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why even insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
later
roslyn
Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
fayre rose wrote:
> wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
>
> The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present State of
> Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> by John
> Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
>
> "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> Gentry of
> England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> Families,
> that have always born a Coat of Arms....
>
> "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen, and have
> ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
>
> But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> Employment upon him.
>
> "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France, Italy, and
> Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
>
> All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
>
> i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by birthright.
>
>
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Just had another thought:
>
> Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
>
> I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
>
> Bill Barber wrote:
> > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the designation
> > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> >
> > Again, dunno...
> >
> > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> >
> >
> > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > the
> > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > >
> > > > Marie
> > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > number of children.
> > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if there
> > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > couple for the years in question.
> > >
> > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > back to England with them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely, since
> > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen business
> > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > and...uh...others.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>
>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>
>
> >
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>
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> > Call united kingdom
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > United kingdom phone card
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
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>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
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>
> > United kingdom vacation
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-27 01:31:29
I could always get a career in ebonics.
Yo, man! Wassup!
fayre rose wrote:
> oh don't let one little failure put you off...it's try, try and try
> again...:-))
> who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure out how
> younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo, even
> with the spelling style of the medieval era.
>
> and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why even
> insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
>
> later
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> > wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
> >
> > The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present
> State of
> > Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> > by John
> > Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
> >
> > "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> > Gentry of
> > England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> > Families,
> > that have always born a Coat of Arms....
> >
> > "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen,
> and have
> > ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> > Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
> >
> > But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> > he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> > Employment upon him.
> >
> > "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France,
> Italy, and
> > Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
> >
> > All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
> >
> > i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> > the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by
> birthright.
> >
> >
> > roslyn
> >
> > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > Just had another thought:
> >
> > Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> > I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
> >
> > I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> > minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
> >
> > Bill Barber wrote:
> > > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the
> designation
> > > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> > >
> > > Again, dunno...
> > >
> > > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> > >
> > >
> > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > > the
> > > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marie
> > > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > > number of children.
> > > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if
> there
> > > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > > couple for the years in question.
> > > >
> > > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > > back to England with them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely,
> since
> > > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen
> business
> > > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > > and...uh...others.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
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>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
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>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>>
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> > >
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
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> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
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> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
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> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
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> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>>
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> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>
>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>
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> >
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> United kingdom flower delivery
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> Call united kingdom
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
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> United kingdom phone card
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> United kingdom hotel
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> United kingdom vacation
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
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>
Yo, man! Wassup!
fayre rose wrote:
> oh don't let one little failure put you off...it's try, try and try
> again...:-))
> who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure out how
> younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo, even
> with the spelling style of the medieval era.
>
> and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why even
> insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
>
> later
> roslyn
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> > wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
> >
> > The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The Present
> State of
> > Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State thereof._
> > by John
> > Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
> >
> > "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted the
> > Gentry of
> > England, that have no other Title, but are descended of Ancient
> > Families,
> > that have always born a Coat of Arms....
> >
> > "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been Freemen,
> and have
> > ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so that in
> > Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
> >
> > But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all Honour,
> > he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an Honourable
> > Employment upon him.
> >
> > "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France,
> Italy, and
> > Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
> >
> > All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not Noblemen."
> >
> > i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose through
> > the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by
> birthright.
> >
> >
> > roslyn
> >
> > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > Just had another thought:
> >
> > Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived from 'young man,
> > I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
> >
> > I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the ranks into
> > minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
> >
> > Bill Barber wrote:
> > > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the
> designation
> > > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of the word
> > > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may be
> > > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s, Richard II's
> > > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire archers* . Of
> > > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed bodyguards.
> > >
> > > Again, dunno...
> > >
> > > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> > >
> > >
> > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > > <fayreroze@...> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote: If (just for more fun, of
> > > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was over in
> > > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied objection to
> > > > the
> > > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and Elizabeth
> > > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marie
> > > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and jaquetta left a
> > > > number of children.
> > > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time on his or
> > > > her hands could research the York household accounts and see if
> there
> > > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays with the
> > > > couple for the years in question.
> > > >
> > > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they took him
> > > > back to England with them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent of "archer"
> > > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not likely,
> since
> > > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from Rouen
> business
> > > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns, both verbal
> > > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms of
> > > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have English
> > > > and Norman equivalents, such as Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > > and...uh...others.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > > United kingdom vacation
> > > >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>
>
> >
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > >
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> > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>>>
>
> >
> > > Call united kingdom
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=pCuoM6r-jyH3fIPQf4P1sA>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=6azTZrzj2PBF7HOK84VyqA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=0PwHmUDGhpM37ZE9_Bb8qA>>>
>
> >
> > > United kingdom vacation
> > >
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>
>
> >
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+vacation&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=AAVe10QjuLXgqY7yLADVTg>>>
>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
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> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=Wa4nJ_E0VU7WvCR1WqML1A>
> United kingdom flower delivery
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+phone+card&w5=United+kingdom+hotel&w6=United+kingdom+vacation&c=6&s=180&.sig=suwnigbzxGHDjTuxPOEYOA>
> Call united kingdom
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[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-27 05:11:51
I'd just like to say hello, I'm Lotti, I'm new to the group!
I don't know about the origin of the word yeoman, but I agree with
Bill Barber about the archer connection, according to AVB Norman and
Don Pottinger in their book English Weapons and Warfare 449-1660, "a
number of English Kings, including Edward III, Richard II and Edward
IV, had permanent bodyguards of archers in addition to the Knights
and Sergeants of the Royal Household"
It goes on to say that the current Yeoman of the Guard are "direct
descendants of the guard of archers raised by Henry VII in 1485".
So "Yeoman" could indeed come from "Yew-man".
--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> I could always get a career in ebonics.
>
> Yo, man! Wassup!
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> > oh don't let one little failure put you off...it's try, try and
try
> > again...:-))
> > who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure
out how
> > younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo,
even
> > with the spelling style of the medieval era.
> >
> > and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why
even
> > insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
> >
> > later
> > roslyn
> >
> > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
> >
> > fayre rose wrote:
> > > wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
> > >
> > > The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The
Present
> > State of
> > > Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State
thereof._
> > > by John
> > > Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
> > >
> > > "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted
the
> > > Gentry of
> > > England, that have no other Title, but are descended of
Ancient
> > > Families,
> > > that have always born a Coat of Arms....
> > >
> > > "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been
Freemen,
> > and have
> > > ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so
that in
> > > Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
> > >
> > > But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all
Honour,
> > > he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an
Honourable
> > > Employment upon him.
> > >
> > > "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France,
> > Italy, and
> > > Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
> > >
> > > All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not
Noblemen."
> > >
> > > i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose
through
> > > the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by
> > birthright.
> > >
> > >
> > > roslyn
> > >
> > > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > > Just had another thought:
> > >
> > > Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived
from 'young man,
> > > I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
> > >
> > > I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the
ranks into
> > > minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
> > >
> > > Bill Barber wrote:
> > > > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the
> > designation
> > > > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of
the word
> > > > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may
be
> > > > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s,
Richard II's
> > > > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire
archers* . Of
> > > > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed
bodyguards.
> > > >
> > > > Again, dunno...
> > > >
> > > > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > > > <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@> wrote: If (just for more fun,
of
> > > > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was
over in
> > > > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied
objection to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and
Elizabeth
> > > > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and
jaquetta left a
> > > > > number of children.
> > > > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time
on his or
> > > > > her hands could research the York household accounts and
see if
> > there
> > > > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays
with the
> > > > > couple for the years in question.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they
took him
> > > > > back to England with them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent
of "archer"
> > > > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not
likely,
> > since
> > > > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from
Rouen
> > business
> > > > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns,
both verbal
> > > > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms
of
> > > > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have
English
> > > > > and Norman equivalents, such as
Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > > > and...uh...others.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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I don't know about the origin of the word yeoman, but I agree with
Bill Barber about the archer connection, according to AVB Norman and
Don Pottinger in their book English Weapons and Warfare 449-1660, "a
number of English Kings, including Edward III, Richard II and Edward
IV, had permanent bodyguards of archers in addition to the Knights
and Sergeants of the Royal Household"
It goes on to say that the current Yeoman of the Guard are "direct
descendants of the guard of archers raised by Henry VII in 1485".
So "Yeoman" could indeed come from "Yew-man".
--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> I could always get a career in ebonics.
>
> Yo, man! Wassup!
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> > oh don't let one little failure put you off...it's try, try and
try
> > again...:-))
> > who knows, maybe the "expert" is wrong. i'm trying to figure
out how
> > younger became yeo..i could more easily see ya or yu than yeo,
even
> > with the spelling style of the medieval era.
> >
> > and for that matter yeo is pronounced yo..long o sound..so why
even
> > insert the e at all..unless you went for yoe vs yeo.
> >
> > later
> > roslyn
> >
> > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > Oh well, there goes my career as an etymologist.
> >
> > fayre rose wrote:
> > > wikipedia has a long article on yeoman
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeoman
> > >
> > > The following is from _Magna Britannia Notitia: Or, The
Present
> > State of
> > > Great Britain; With divers Remarks Upon the Antient State
thereof._
> > > by John
> > > Chamberlayne, Esq; (London, 1723), p. 175:
> > >
> > > "In the last Place, among the lower Nobility, are accounted
the
> > > Gentry of
> > > England, that have no other Title, but are descended of
Ancient
> > > Families,
> > > that have always born a Coat of Arms....
> > >
> > > "A Gentleman is properly one whose Ancestors have been
Freemen,
> > and have
> > > ow'd no Obedience to any Man besides their natural Prince; so
that in
> > > Propriety of Speech no Man is a Gentleman who is not born so:
> > >
> > > But in England the King being properly the Fountain of all
Honour,
> > > he can make a Gentleman by Charter, or by bestowing an
Honourable
> > > Employment upon him.
> > >
> > > "The Title of Gentleman in England (as of Cavalier in France,
> > Italy, and
> > > Spain) is not disdain'd by any Nobleman.
> > >
> > > All Noblemen are Gentlemen, though all Gentlemen are not
Noblemen."
> > >
> > > i think the chaucer family are an example of folk who rose
through
> > > the ranks via social and marriage connections, rather than by
> > birthright.
> > >
> > >
> > > roslyn
> > >
> > > Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > > Just had another thought:
> > >
> > > Although I read that the word 'yeoman' may have derived
from 'young man,
> > > I wonder if it does not, in fact, derive from 'yew-man'.
> > >
> > > I need to do some work to see if any archers rose through the
ranks into
> > > minor gentry in the fifteenth century.
> > >
> > > Bill Barber wrote:
> > > > Could be wrong on this one, but something tells me that the
> > designation
> > > > 'yeoman' has something to do with archers. The etymology of
the word
> > > > seems to be Old English /geong/ 'young' + /mann/ 'man'. I may
be
> > > > thinking of the archer connection because, in the 1390s,
Richard II's
> > > > guards were actually drawn from the ranks of Cheshire
archers* . Of
> > > > course, we still have yeomen of the guard, who are armed
bodyguards.
> > > >
> > > > Again, dunno...
> > > >
> > > > */*Richard II*/, Nigel Saul, Yale, 1997, p.393.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > oregonkaty wrote:
> > > > > --- In , fayre rose
> > > > > <fayreroze@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@> wrote: If (just for more fun,
of
> > > > > course) anybody wants another really wild
> > > > > > idea, I seem to recall that Sir Richard Woodville was
over in
> > > > > > Normandy at the same time. Suppose Cecily's frenzied
objection to
> > > > > the
> > > > > > Woodville marriage was based on the fact that Edward and
Elizabeth
> > > > > > were really half-brother and sister. . .
> > > > > > Now, okay, that's wicked.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Marie
> > > > > > oh what a tangled web we weave...:-))
> > > > > > snicker...is that why they called him earl rivers?
> > > > > > he was no slouch in reproduction either. he and
jaquetta left a
> > > > > number of children.
> > > > > > what a busy boy he could have been.
> > > > > > such a thought could be worthy of further research.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this is material for a thesis. Someone with time
on his or
> > > > > her hands could research the York household accounts and
see if
> > there
> > > > > is any one man among the staff or the company who stays
with the
> > > > > couple for the years in question.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't expect it to be an archer from Rouen unless they
took him
> > > > > back to England with them.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Another thought...is there a name that is the equivalent
of "archer"
> > > > > or "bowman" among the English gentry or nobility? (Not
likely,
> > since
> > > > > an archer was not a noble calling.) Is the archer from
Rouen
> > business
> > > > > a pun? A homophone, perhaps? The Medievals loved puns,
both verbal
> > > > > and visual, as in the crests and devices and coats of arms
of
> > > > > heraldry -- the dog for Talbot and so on. Some names have
English
> > > > > and Norman equivalents, such as
Campbell/Fairfield/Taliaferro
> > > > > and...uh...others.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
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> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
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> >
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> >
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> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
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> >
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> >
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> > > > > United kingdom hotel
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> >
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> > > > > United kingdom vacation
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-30 02:18:56
here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to have children.
she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did spend a fair amount of time away.
EARLDOM OF ULSTER [IRL]
IX. 8.
EARLDOM OF CAMBRIDGE
DUKEDOM OF YORK
III. 3. RICHARD ("of York," afterwards PLANTAGENET), DUKE OF YORK, nephew and heir, being son and heir of Richard "of Conisburgh," or "of York," EARL OF CAMBRIDGE (who was and executed, 5 August 1415, whereby all his honours, but not his right to succeed his uncle, were forfeited), by his 1st wife, Anne, sister and (in her issue) heir of Edmund (DE MORTIMER), 5th EARL OF MARCH and EARL OF ULSTER (IRL], only child that left issue of Roger, 4th EARL OF MARCH and EARL OF ULSTER (IRL], who was son and heir of Edmund, 3rd Earl of March, by Philippe, suo jure Countess of Ulster [IRL], daughter and heir of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, 3rd but 2nd surviving son of Edward III, which Richard, Earl of Cambridge, was younger son of the 1st Duke of York.
He was born 22 September 1411 and succeeded to the Dukedom of York (only) on his paternal uncle's death, 25 October 1415. By the death, 18 January 1424/5, of his maternal uncle, Edmund (de Mortimer), 5th Earl of March, abovenamed, he became EARL OF MARCH and LORD MORTIMER (of Wigmore), as also EARL OF ULSTER [IRL], inheriting the rich lordship of Clare, as also those of Trim and Connaught, in Ireland, and becoming thus, it is probable, the most powerful subject in the realm.
As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19 May 1426, at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30; accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
His subsequent career forms the political history of England itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise, February 1436/7; and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
On his return to England between September and December 1445, he appears to have resigned the Earldom of March in favour of his eldest son Edward.
He became Justice in Eyre South of Trent, 14 July 1447-July 1453; Lieutenant of Ireland, 9 December 1447-March 1452/3, and again 1 December (as from 25 October) 1454 till his attainder in 1459; Steward and Warden of Rockingham Forest and Constable of Rockingham Castle, 21 Mar. 1450/1.
Returning from Ireland in the autumn of 1450, he assumed the active leadership of his party against the Duke of Somerset, thus beginning the dynastic and constitutional struggle which culminated in the Wars of Lancaster and York.
He was Protector of the Realm (during the King's incapacity), 3 April 1454-February 1454/5; First Commissioner to create and invest Prince Edward as Prince of Wales, 13 April 1454.
Captain of Calais and Lieutenant in the Marches there, 28 July 1454-6 March 1454/5; Keeper of the King's mines in Devon and Cornwall, 19 July 1454.
On Somerset's release from the Tower and restoration to power early in 1455, York took up arms against his rival and defeated him, 22 May 1455, at St. Albans, where the King was taken prisoner and Somerset slain.
Thereafter he was made Constable of Carmarthen and Aberystwyth Castles, 2 June 1455, also of Careg Cennen Castle, all till April 1457; was again Protector of the Realm, 19 November 1455-25 February 1455/6; and walked with Queen Margaret in the "love-day" procession to St. Paul's, 25 March 1457/8, when the quarrel between York and Lancaster was outwardly patched up.
In 1459 both sides took the field but the Yorkist army, despite an initial success at Blore Heath, 23 September, was compelled to disperse without fighting at Ludford, 12-13 October following, when confronted by the King in person.
The Duke, with his son, the Earl of Rutland, withdrew into Wales and later crossed to Ireland, where he was still recognized as Lieutenant, to maintain his cause there.
He and his sons were in consequence attainted in the Parliament that met at Coventry, 20 November 1459.
After the success of his son, the Earl of March, and the Earls of Salisbury and Warwick in seizing London, 2 July, and the defeat and capture of the King by March and Warwick at Northampton, 10 July 1460, the Duke returned to England, September, and claimed the Crown in Parliament as his right, October following, the proceedings of the Coventry Parliament of 1459 being at the same time annulled, whereby he was restored.
This claim was, however, not well received and he had to be satisfied with a compromise, ratified by the King and Parliament, 31 October 1460, under which he was declared heir, after the demise of Henry VI,. to the throne, with remainder to his own heirs.
He was also granted, as an appanage to support his position as heir to the Crown, the Principality of Wales, the counties of Chester and Flint, and the Dukedom of Cornwall.
On 9 November following he was publicly proclaimed as such heir and he was directed by the King to suppress all rebellions in England and Wales. Leaving London, 9 December, he met Queen Margaret and the Lancastrians at Wakefield, 30 December 1460, where his army was routed and he himself slain.
He married, before 18 October 1424, Cecily (then aged 9), youngest daughter of Ralph (NEVILLE), 1st EARL OF WESTMORLAND, being 5th daughter by his 2nd wife, Joan BEAUFORT, sister of the half-blood to HENRY IV, legitimated daughter of John, "of Gaunt," DUKE OF LANCASTER.
He died 30 December 1460, aged 49, and was buried at Pontefract, co. York, his head, bearing a crown of paper and straw, being set up on Micklegate Bar, York, but afterwards interred with his body, the whole being exhumed, 24 July, and buried with great pomp, 30 July 1476, at Fotheringgay. M.I.
His widow, who was born 3 May 1415, having survived her two last surviving sons, Edward IV and Richard III, died 31 May 1495 at her castle at Berkhampstead, aged 80, and was buried with her husband at Fotheringgay. M.I. [CP 12[2]:905-9, 14:642]
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
>
> Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
Weir's
> book on royal genealogy.
I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
iffing.
It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
Katy
---------------------------------
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she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did spend a fair amount of time away.
EARLDOM OF ULSTER [IRL]
IX. 8.
EARLDOM OF CAMBRIDGE
DUKEDOM OF YORK
III. 3. RICHARD ("of York," afterwards PLANTAGENET), DUKE OF YORK, nephew and heir, being son and heir of Richard "of Conisburgh," or "of York," EARL OF CAMBRIDGE (who was and executed, 5 August 1415, whereby all his honours, but not his right to succeed his uncle, were forfeited), by his 1st wife, Anne, sister and (in her issue) heir of Edmund (DE MORTIMER), 5th EARL OF MARCH and EARL OF ULSTER (IRL], only child that left issue of Roger, 4th EARL OF MARCH and EARL OF ULSTER (IRL], who was son and heir of Edmund, 3rd Earl of March, by Philippe, suo jure Countess of Ulster [IRL], daughter and heir of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, 3rd but 2nd surviving son of Edward III, which Richard, Earl of Cambridge, was younger son of the 1st Duke of York.
He was born 22 September 1411 and succeeded to the Dukedom of York (only) on his paternal uncle's death, 25 October 1415. By the death, 18 January 1424/5, of his maternal uncle, Edmund (de Mortimer), 5th Earl of March, abovenamed, he became EARL OF MARCH and LORD MORTIMER (of Wigmore), as also EARL OF ULSTER [IRL], inheriting the rich lordship of Clare, as also those of Trim and Connaught, in Ireland, and becoming thus, it is probable, the most powerful subject in the realm.
As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19 May 1426, at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30; accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
His subsequent career forms the political history of England itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise, February 1436/7; and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
On his return to England between September and December 1445, he appears to have resigned the Earldom of March in favour of his eldest son Edward.
He became Justice in Eyre South of Trent, 14 July 1447-July 1453; Lieutenant of Ireland, 9 December 1447-March 1452/3, and again 1 December (as from 25 October) 1454 till his attainder in 1459; Steward and Warden of Rockingham Forest and Constable of Rockingham Castle, 21 Mar. 1450/1.
Returning from Ireland in the autumn of 1450, he assumed the active leadership of his party against the Duke of Somerset, thus beginning the dynastic and constitutional struggle which culminated in the Wars of Lancaster and York.
He was Protector of the Realm (during the King's incapacity), 3 April 1454-February 1454/5; First Commissioner to create and invest Prince Edward as Prince of Wales, 13 April 1454.
Captain of Calais and Lieutenant in the Marches there, 28 July 1454-6 March 1454/5; Keeper of the King's mines in Devon and Cornwall, 19 July 1454.
On Somerset's release from the Tower and restoration to power early in 1455, York took up arms against his rival and defeated him, 22 May 1455, at St. Albans, where the King was taken prisoner and Somerset slain.
Thereafter he was made Constable of Carmarthen and Aberystwyth Castles, 2 June 1455, also of Careg Cennen Castle, all till April 1457; was again Protector of the Realm, 19 November 1455-25 February 1455/6; and walked with Queen Margaret in the "love-day" procession to St. Paul's, 25 March 1457/8, when the quarrel between York and Lancaster was outwardly patched up.
In 1459 both sides took the field but the Yorkist army, despite an initial success at Blore Heath, 23 September, was compelled to disperse without fighting at Ludford, 12-13 October following, when confronted by the King in person.
The Duke, with his son, the Earl of Rutland, withdrew into Wales and later crossed to Ireland, where he was still recognized as Lieutenant, to maintain his cause there.
He and his sons were in consequence attainted in the Parliament that met at Coventry, 20 November 1459.
After the success of his son, the Earl of March, and the Earls of Salisbury and Warwick in seizing London, 2 July, and the defeat and capture of the King by March and Warwick at Northampton, 10 July 1460, the Duke returned to England, September, and claimed the Crown in Parliament as his right, October following, the proceedings of the Coventry Parliament of 1459 being at the same time annulled, whereby he was restored.
This claim was, however, not well received and he had to be satisfied with a compromise, ratified by the King and Parliament, 31 October 1460, under which he was declared heir, after the demise of Henry VI,. to the throne, with remainder to his own heirs.
He was also granted, as an appanage to support his position as heir to the Crown, the Principality of Wales, the counties of Chester and Flint, and the Dukedom of Cornwall.
On 9 November following he was publicly proclaimed as such heir and he was directed by the King to suppress all rebellions in England and Wales. Leaving London, 9 December, he met Queen Margaret and the Lancastrians at Wakefield, 30 December 1460, where his army was routed and he himself slain.
He married, before 18 October 1424, Cecily (then aged 9), youngest daughter of Ralph (NEVILLE), 1st EARL OF WESTMORLAND, being 5th daughter by his 2nd wife, Joan BEAUFORT, sister of the half-blood to HENRY IV, legitimated daughter of John, "of Gaunt," DUKE OF LANCASTER.
He died 30 December 1460, aged 49, and was buried at Pontefract, co. York, his head, bearing a crown of paper and straw, being set up on Micklegate Bar, York, but afterwards interred with his body, the whole being exhumed, 24 July, and buried with great pomp, 30 July 1476, at Fotheringgay. M.I.
His widow, who was born 3 May 1415, having survived her two last surviving sons, Edward IV and Richard III, died 31 May 1495 at her castle at Berkhampstead, aged 80, and was buried with her husband at Fotheringgay. M.I. [CP 12[2]:905-9, 14:642]
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> > 1 Richard Plantagenet 1411 - 1460
> > .. +Cecily Neville 1415 - 1495
> > ..........2 Joan Plantagenet 1438-1438
> > ......... 2 Anne Plantagenet 1439 - 1475/6
> > ......... 2 Henry Plantagenet 1440/41 - died young
> > ......... 2 Edward IV Plantagenet 1442 - 1483
> > ......... 2 Edmund Plantagenet 1443 - 1460
> > ......... 2 Elizabeth Plantagenet 1443 - 1540
> > ......... 2 Margaret Plantagenet 1446 - 1503
> > ......... 2 William Plantagenet 1447 - died young
> > ......... 2 John Plantagenet 1448 - died young
> > ......... 2 George Plantagenet 1449 - 1477/78
> > ......... 2 Thomas Plantagenet 1451 - died young
> > ......... 2 Richard III Plantagenet 1452 - 1485
> > ......... 2 Ursula Plantagenet 1455 - died young
>
> Just to say, this was discussed on the forum once before, but Joan
> appears to be a phantom. I think we tracked her down to Alison
Weir's
> book on royal genealogy.
I meant to mention the apocryphal Joan, who appears in the Wikipedia
article on Cecily Neville, but forgot to in the throes of my what-
iffing.
It's fun to speculate on why the lack of children in the first nine
years of their marriage, then the deluge of them afterwards.
Maybe the Duke quit spending so much time on horseback. If wearing
tighty whites can decrease a man's fertility, I imagine that jouncing
around in a Medieval saddle for weeks can too.
Katy
---------------------------------
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---------------------------------
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-30 04:57:22
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to have
children.
>
> she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did
spend a fair amount of time away.
>\
But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
Katy
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to have
children.
>
> she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did
spend a fair amount of time away.
>\
But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-03-30 15:51:43
see below.
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to have
children.
>
> she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did
spend a fair amount of time away.
>\
But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
Katy
As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19 May 1426,
---------------
cecily is age 11
-------------
at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
-----
cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
-------
(richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
-----------
but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two years. richard is age 19 to 20.
------------
For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
-----------
richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense of timing.
note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not afford to have cec with him.
---------------
His subsequent career forms the political history of England itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise, February 1436/7;
--------------
again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in 1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth? is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she wasn't with richard?
----------------
and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
----------------
richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
--------------
roslyn btw..my copy of holy blood in the car under the passenger seat. it makes good reading when one is waiting for the ferry to arrive.
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oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to have
children.
>
> she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he did
spend a fair amount of time away.
>\
But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
Katy
As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19 May 1426,
---------------
cecily is age 11
-------------
at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
-----
cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
-------
(richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
-----------
but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two years. richard is age 19 to 20.
------------
For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
-----------
richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense of timing.
note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not afford to have cec with him.
---------------
His subsequent career forms the political history of England itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise, February 1436/7;
--------------
again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in 1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth? is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she wasn't with richard?
----------------
and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
----------------
richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
--------------
roslyn btw..my copy of holy blood in the car under the passenger seat. it makes good reading when one is waiting for the ferry to arrive.
SPONSORED LINKS
United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-03-30 16:22:50
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> see below.
That's good research and sheds a lot of light on the matter.
Katy
> oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@> wrote:
> >
> > here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to
have
> children.
> >
> > she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he
did
> spend a fair amount of time away.
> >\
>
> But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
> time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
>
> Katy
> As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19
May 1426,
> ---------------
> cecily is age 11
> -------------
>
> at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence
of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
> -----
> cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
> -------
> (richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered
Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
> -----------
> but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two
years. richard is age 19 to 20.
> ------------
>
>
> For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had
livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly
proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
> -----------
> richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years
old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense
of timing.
>
> note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not
afford to have cec with him.
> ---------------
>
> His subsequent career forms the political history of England
itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and
Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise,
February 1436/7;
> --------------
> again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after
pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in
1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
>
> was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because
she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth?
is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she
wasn't with richard?
> ----------------
> and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by
maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief
Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
> ----------------
> richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be
the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live
together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long
periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity
towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
> --------------
>
> roslyn btw..my copy of holy blood in the car under the passenger
seat. it makes good reading when one is waiting for the ferry to
arrive.
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> see below.
That's good research and sheds a lot of light on the matter.
Katy
> oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote:
> --- In , fayre rose
> <fayreroze@> wrote:
> >
> > here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to
have
> children.
> >
> > she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he
did
> spend a fair amount of time away.
> >\
>
> But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
> time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
>
> Katy
> As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19
May 1426,
> ---------------
> cecily is age 11
> -------------
>
> at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence
of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
> -----
> cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
> -------
> (richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered
Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
> -----------
> but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two
years. richard is age 19 to 20.
> ------------
>
>
> For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had
livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly
proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
> -----------
> richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years
old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense
of timing.
>
> note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not
afford to have cec with him.
> ---------------
>
> His subsequent career forms the political history of England
itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and
Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise,
February 1436/7;
> --------------
> again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after
pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in
1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
>
> was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because
she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth?
is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she
wasn't with richard?
> ----------------
> and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by
maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief
Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
> ----------------
> richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be
the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live
together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long
periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity
towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
> --------------
>
> roslyn btw..my copy of holy blood in the car under the passenger
seat. it makes good reading when one is waiting for the ferry to
arrive.
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card United kingdom flower
delivery Call united kingdom United kingdom phone card United
kingdom hotel United kingdom vacation
>
> ---------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>
> Visit your group "" on the web.
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of the
2006-04-02 04:41:50
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to
have
> children.
> >
> > she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he
did
> spend a fair amount of time away.
> >\
>
> But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
> time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
>
> Katy
> As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19
May 1426,
> ---------------
> cecily is age 11
> -------------
>
> at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence
of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
> -----
> cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
> -------
> (richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered
Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
> -----------
> but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two
years. richard is age 19 to 20.
> ------------
>
>
> For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had
livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly
proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
> -----------
> richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years
old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense
of timing.
>
> note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not
afford to have cec with him.
> ---------------
>
> His subsequent career forms the political history of England
itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and
Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise,
February 1436/7;
> --------------
> again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after
pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in
1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
>
> was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because
she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth?
is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she
wasn't with richard?
> ----------------
> and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by
maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief
Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
> ----------------
> richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be
the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live
together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long
periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity
towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
Do you suppose there was a deliberate effort on the part of the
Lancastrians, the supporters of Henry VI and his strong-minded queen,
to keep the Duke of York away from his duchess so much? Maybe hoping
he would get killed before he could get himsef an heir, and then
they'd be rid of that pesky York line and its claim on the throne?
I do love a good conspiracy theory.
Katy
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > here's a pretty good reason why cecily and richard were slow to
have
> children.
> >
> > she was 9 he was 13 when they married. then it looks like he
did
> spend a fair amount of time away.
> >\
>
> But Cecily was 24 when her first child was born, which seems a long
> time after puberty, let alone her marriage.
>
> Katy
> As Duke of York he was knighted by Henry VI on Whitsunday, 19
May 1426,
> ---------------
> cecily is age 11
> -------------
>
> at Leicester; was Constable of England for a duel (in the absence
of the Duke of Bedford), 20 January 1429/30;
> -----
> cecily is age 15, most likely has reached puberty.
> -------
> (richard) accompanied the King to France, April 1430, and entered
Paris with him, November 1431, for his Coronation at Notre Dame.
> -----------
> but it looks like richard was out of country for at least two
years. richard is age 19 to 20.
> ------------
>
>
> For his good and unpaid service in France and England, he had
livery of his lands, 12 May 1432, as fully as if his age were duly
proved. K.G. 22 April 1433.
> -----------
> richard MAY be back in england. he's 20-21, cecily is 17-18 years
old. was she with him? or did he just make visits with a lousy sense
of timing.
>
> note, richard's good and unpaid service. perhaps he could not
afford to have cec with him.
> ---------------
>
> His subsequent career forms the political history of England
itself. He was Lieutenant General and Governor of France and
Normandy, 1436-37, recovering Fécamp, in 1436, and storming Pontoise,
February 1436/7;
> --------------
> again he's out of country. did cecily finally join him after
pontoise? the first child, referred to as a phantom child is born in
1438. then next verified child is born in 39.
>
> was cecily or someone keeping her out of the "war zone" because
she was young? was cec a high sensitive, sickly person in her youth?
is this why her infants have a high mortality rate? is this why she
wasn't with richard?
> ----------------
> and again 2 July 1440-1447, when he acquired a high reputation by
maintaining Normandy almost intact against French attacks; Chief
Commissioner to treat with France, 20 May 1436 and 9 September 1442.
> ----------------
> richard is appointed to live in france as of 1436. this could be
the aprozimate time that cecily and richard actually began to live
together formerly as man and wife. no more interuptions or long
periods of time apart. it is at this time that cecily's proclivity
towards being highly fertile starts to evidence itself.
Do you suppose there was a deliberate effort on the part of the
Lancastrians, the supporters of Henry VI and his strong-minded queen,
to keep the Duke of York away from his duchess so much? Maybe hoping
he would get killed before he could get himsef an heir, and then
they'd be rid of that pesky York line and its claim on the throne?
I do love a good conspiracy theory.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Where did you put your copy of
2006-04-03 02:54:50
katy wrote...
Do you suppose there was a deliberate effort on the part of the
Lancastrians, the supporters of Henry VI and his strong-minded queen,
to keep the Duke of York away from his duchess so much? Maybe hoping
he would get killed before he could get himsef an heir, and then
they'd be rid of that pesky York line and its claim on the throne?
I do love a good conspiracy theory.
Katy
possible, but i don't think too probable. young richard's mom died, i believe giving birth to him, his father was executed for rebellion.
my gut feeling is that richard spent his youth simply trying to make his mark on the world, to show what a good and useful person he was.
i feel he was loyal to the assorted henry rulers, but was not impressed with margaret anjou and her running the "king"dom.
as h6 became more and more useless, the more richard began to consider his options, and most likely prompted by a few advisors.
the "straw"crown was a real mocking blow to the yorkists, and to me is indicative as to how little respect richard held amongst his peers from the other side.
h6's remains were treated with respect. aside from his son, edward being killed on or after the battle, was young edward's body mutilated?
roslyn
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Do you suppose there was a deliberate effort on the part of the
Lancastrians, the supporters of Henry VI and his strong-minded queen,
to keep the Duke of York away from his duchess so much? Maybe hoping
he would get killed before he could get himsef an heir, and then
they'd be rid of that pesky York line and its claim on the throne?
I do love a good conspiracy theory.
Katy
possible, but i don't think too probable. young richard's mom died, i believe giving birth to him, his father was executed for rebellion.
my gut feeling is that richard spent his youth simply trying to make his mark on the world, to show what a good and useful person he was.
i feel he was loyal to the assorted henry rulers, but was not impressed with margaret anjou and her running the "king"dom.
as h6 became more and more useless, the more richard began to consider his options, and most likely prompted by a few advisors.
the "straw"crown was a real mocking blow to the yorkists, and to me is indicative as to how little respect richard held amongst his peers from the other side.
h6's remains were treated with respect. aside from his son, edward being killed on or after the battle, was young edward's body mutilated?
roslyn
---------------------------------
YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
Visit your group "" on the web.
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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