Tewkesbury Abbey

Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited Tewkesbury Abbey and
followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood by the great door and
thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the Yorkists. While in the
abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state for 30 days. Stood and
took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where Prince
Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was buried in such an important
spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father dead/murdered very soon after
the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have been treated with
such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His earthly remains were
certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the treatment meted out to
Richard's by Tudor.
Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where Clarence and Isobel were
buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which are very worn leading
down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the bones that are in the
box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are those of George and
Isobel - no-one could tell me??
Eileen

Edward Prince of Wales (not Prince Edward, that is much later usage) was an enemy killed in battle, and the chivalric tradition held a brave enemy worthy of all honour. The treatment meted out to Richard III's body was an aberration by the standards of the time, and virtually unique (I know of no other example). The old tradition still held good in the First and Second World Wars; if you visit the former RAF airfield at Tangmere, Sussex, you will find German aircrew buried in the village churchyard along with the British, Germans on one side of the path, British on the other, and all the graves equally well cared-for.

Ann

eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where Prince
Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was buried in such an important
spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father dead/murdered very soon after
the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have been treated with
such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His earthly remains were
certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the treatment meted out to
Richard's by Tudor.

Eileen,
I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into the crypt?

And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.


Wendy
[email protected]
[email protected]
----- Original Message -----
From: eileen
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey


Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited Tewkesbury Abbey and
followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood by the great door and
thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the Yorkists. While in the
abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state for 30 days. Stood and
took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where Prince
Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was buried in such an important
spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father dead/murdered very soon after
the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have been treated with
such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His earthly remains were
certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the treatment meted out to
Richard's by Tudor.
Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where Clarence and Isobel were
buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which are very worn leading
down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the bones that are in the
box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are those of George and
Isobel - no-one could tell me??
Eileen





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Let's not forget that his body was taken to St Paul's in London too
to be displayed with that of Henry VI to show one and all that
Lancaster was dead and gone. Then Edward's body was returned for
burial at Tewkesbury. The House of York showed respect for the dead.
Paul

On 3 Apr 2006, at 10:17, A LYON wrote:

> Edward Prince of Wales (not Prince Edward, that is much later
> usage) was an enemy killed in battle, and the chivalric tradition
> held a brave enemy worthy of all honour. The treatment meted out to
> Richard III's body was an aberration by the standards of the time,
> and virtually unique (I know of no other example). The old
> tradition still held good in the First and Second World Wars; if
> you visit the former RAF airfield at Tangmere, Sussex, you will
> find German aircrew buried in the village churchyard along with the
> British, Germans on one side of the path, British on the other, and
> all the graves equally well cared-for.
>
> Ann
>
> eileen <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
> Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where
> Prince
> Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> buried in such an important
> spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father dead/
> murdered very soon after
> the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have
> been treated with
> such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His
> earthly remains were
> certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> treatment meted out to
> Richard's by Tudor.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"

--- In , "wendy" <ukhrh@...> wrote:
>
> Eileen,
> I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into the crypt?

Hi Wendy
The gentleman I spoke to, I felt, knew less than I did regarding the crypt and Clarences
and Isobels bones. He could only tell me that the bones that had been on show some
years ago and were then described as being those of C and I were now in the crypt.

Although I looked at him in a kind of pleading manner he was emphatic noone could go
down the crypt. When I actually found the entrance to the crypt which is covered by a grill
I could immediately see why they would be against anyone going down there. It is
absolutely pitch black and the entrance very steep. I could just make out the top 3 steps,
which are very very worn and narrow. It was extremely creepy but then again I am a bit of
a wimp. However, having said that I would have been down there like a shot it I had been
allowed to.

Maybe it might be possible if you wrote to the powers that be at Tewkesbury and asked
them. Worth a try.

Dont forget to look out for the stone cross that is down the High Street that marks the
spot where many of the Lancastrians were beheaded.

Eileen
>
> And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I exhausted what's
out there except for household rolls.
>
>
> Wendy
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: eileen
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
>
>
> Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited Tewkesbury Abbey and
> followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood by the great door and
> thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the Yorkists. While in
the
> abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state for 30 days. Stood
and
> took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where Prince
> Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was buried in such an
important
> spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father dead/murdered very soon
after
> the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have been treated with
> such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His earthly remains were
> certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the treatment meted out to
> Richard's by Tudor.
> Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where Clarence and Isobel
were
> buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which are very worn leading
> down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the bones that are in
the
> box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are those of George and
> Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Stood and
took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir marking where Prince
Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was buried in such an important
spot -

W.E. Hampton in _Memorials of the Wars of the Roses_ states that when the area was excavated in Victorian times Prince Edward's body was not found, although others were including the "gigantic" one of the Duke of Warwick. Hampton thought that the Prince's body was probably in the common pit.

Against this, Somerset and his brother and others, including Sir Humphrey Audley, have known but unmarked graves. If you visit the Abbey book shop, you walk over them.

Brian Wainwright

Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years ago, I
simply asked and was taken down.

wendy wrote:
> Eileen,
> I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into
> the crypt?
>
> And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
>
>
> Wendy
> [email protected]
> [email protected]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: eileen
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
>
>
> Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> Tewkesbury Abbey and
> followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood
> by the great door and
> thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the
> Yorkists. While in the
> abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state
> for 30 days. Stood and
> took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> marking where Prince
> Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> buried in such an important
> spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> dead/murdered very soon after
> the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have
> been treated with
> such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His
> earthly remains were
> certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> treatment meted out to
> Richard's by Tudor.
> Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> Clarence and Isobel were
> buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which are
> very worn leading
> down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the
> bones that are in the
> box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> those of George and
> Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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--- In , Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years ago, I
> simply asked and was taken down.
>

Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue them - UK members of the
forum will know what I am talking about - for example beautiful horse chestnut trees are
felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will sue - children in some
schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case one of them gets
injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you they can sue you if
your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have enough staff there to
escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?

By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?

Eileen




> wendy wrote:
> > Eileen,
> > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into
> > the crypt?
> >
> > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> >
> >
> > Wendy
> > [email protected]
> > [email protected]
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: eileen
> > To:
> > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> >
> >
> > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood
> > by the great door and
> > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the
> > Yorkists. While in the
> > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state
> > for 30 days. Stood and
> > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> > marking where Prince
> > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> > buried in such an important
> > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > dead/murdered very soon after
> > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have
> > been treated with
> > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His
> > earthly remains were
> > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > treatment meted out to
> > Richard's by Tudor.
> > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> > Clarence and Isobel were
> > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which are
> > very worn leading
> > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the
> > bones that are in the
> > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> > those of George and
> > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Good question.

There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.

For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century Gothicism. I
was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My friend and
I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door behind
the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked ominously. We
went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight before, so
felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.

A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six inches
away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the history of
the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had that is
similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of Tiberius, who
was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the sensation
as electrifying.

Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be those of
Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the bones
of more than two individuals have been mixed together.

I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also intrigued by
the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
Tewkesbury.

At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
objects. I take it that not many have done so.

eileen wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years
> ago, I
> > simply asked and was taken down.
> >
>
> Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue them -
> UK members of the
> forum will know what I am talking about - for example beautiful horse
> chestnut trees are
> felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will sue
> - children in some
> schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case one of
> them gets
> injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
> they can sue you if
> your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
> enough staff there to
> escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
>
> By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
> > wendy wrote:
> > > Eileen,
> > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into
> > > the crypt?
> > >
> > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wendy
> > > [email protected]
> > > [email protected]
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: eileen
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > >
> > >
> > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood
> > > by the great door and
> > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the
> > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state
> > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> > > marking where Prince
> > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> > > buried in such an important
> > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have
> > > been treated with
> > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His
> > > earthly remains were
> > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > treatment meted out to
> > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which
> are
> > > very worn leading
> > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the
> > > bones that are in the
> > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> > > those of George and
> > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
> > >
> > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > >
> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > SPONSORED LINKS
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> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&
> w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8cAg
> nmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United
> +kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1kjX
> QVm82g5Q>
> > >
> > > United kingdom florist
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ8
> wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> =United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04
> -Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAby
> WJhxvVxdvw>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
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> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

>
> From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
> Date: 2006/04/03 Mon PM 09:04:07 EDT
> To:
> Subject: Re: Tewkesbury Abbey
>
> There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.

For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century Gothicism. I
was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My friend and
I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door behind
the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked ominously. We
went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight before, so
felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.

A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six inches
away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the history of
the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had that is
similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of Tiberius, who
was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the sensation
as electrifying.

Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be those of
Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the bones
of more than two individuals have been mixed together.

I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also intrigued by
the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
Tewkesbury.

At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
objects. I take it that not many have done so.
_________________________________

When I was there in November 2005, there weren't volunteers around, just some church people moving around heavy objects who obviously didn't want to be bothered with tourists. The choir was blocked off, and of course we couldn't get down into the crypt. Still very impressive.

Susan Higginbotham
http://www.susanhigginbotham.com

--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@> wrote:
> >
> > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years
ago, I
> > simply asked and was taken down.
> >
>
> Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue
them - UK members of the
> forum will know what I am talking about

You mean the Fitzwilliam at Cambridge? That was not very long after I
was there (with the Society, of course).

- for example beautiful horse chestnut trees are
> felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will
sue - children in some
> schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case one
of them gets
> injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
they can sue you if
> your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
enough staff there to
> escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
>
> By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
>
> Eileen
>
>
>
>
> > wendy wrote:
> > > Eileen,
> > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get
into
> > > the crypt?
> > >
> > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have
I
> > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > >
> > >
> > > Wendy
> > > [email protected]
> > > [email protected]
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: eileen
> > > To:
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > >
> > >
> > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds -
visited
> > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking.
Stood
> > > by the great door and
> > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay
by the
> > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in
state
> > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the
choir
> > > marking where Prince
> > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he
was
> > > buried in such an important
> > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not
have
> > > been treated with
> > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this?
His
> > > earthly remains were
> > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > treatment meted out to
> > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt
where
> > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps,
which are
> > > very worn leading
> > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to
whether the
> > > bones that are in the
> > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt
are
> > > those of George and
> > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> --
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
> > >
> > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
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> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> > > Service.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> --
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > United kingdom calling card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=U
nited
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
ist&w5
>
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc
4xi
> a-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w
2=Unit
>
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+fl
orist&
>
w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8c
Ag
> nmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > Call united kingdom
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+ki
ngdo
>
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=
United
>
+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1
kjX
> QVm82g5Q>
> > >
> > > United kingdom florist
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
+kingd
>
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
=Unite
>
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ
8
> wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Uni
ted
>
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+flor
ist&w5
>
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG
04
> -Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > United kingdom hotel
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
>
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+k
ingd
>
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
=Unite
>
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGA
by
> WJhxvVxdvw>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > >
> > > * Visit your group "
> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>"
on the web.
> > >
> > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > [email protected]
> > > <mailto:-
[email protected]?
> subject=Unsubscribe>
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of
> > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > >
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--------
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> Good question.
>
> There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
> Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.
>
> For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century Gothicism. I
> was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My friend and
> I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door behind
> the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked ominously. We
> went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
> piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight before, so
> felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.

Bill - If I recall correctly I have seen a photo of the crypt with 1 or 2 empty stone coffins in
there - is that right?

If that is the case maybe that is where the bones originated from - although it may well be
that there were others other than Clarence and Isobel buried down there.

Eileen
>
> A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six inches
> away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the history of
> the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had that is
> similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of Tiberius, who
> was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the sensation
> as electrifying.
>
> Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be those of
> Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the bones
> of more than two individuals have been mixed together.
>
> I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also intrigued by
> the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
> Tewkesbury.
>
> At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
> objects. I take it that not many have done so.
>
> eileen wrote:
> > --- In , Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years
> > ago, I
> > > simply asked and was taken down.
> > >
> >
> > Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue them -
> > UK members of the
> > forum will know what I am talking about - for example beautiful horse
> > chestnut trees are
> > felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will sue
> > - children in some
> > schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case one of
> > them gets
> > injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
> > they can sue you if
> > your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
> > enough staff there to
> > escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
> >
> > By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
> >
> > Eileen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > wendy wrote:
> > > > Eileen,
> > > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually get into
> > > > the crypt?
> > > >
> > > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> > > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Wendy
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > [email protected]
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: eileen
> > > > To:
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> > > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking. Stood
> > > > by the great door and
> > > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay by the
> > > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in state
> > > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> > > > marking where Prince
> > > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> > > > buried in such an important
> > > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not have
> > > > been treated with
> > > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged this? His
> > > > earthly remains were
> > > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > > treatment meted out to
> > > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> > > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps, which
> > are
> > > > very worn leading
> > > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to whether the
> > > > bones that are in the
> > > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> > > > those of George and
> > > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
> > > >
> > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > > [email protected]
> > > >
> > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > Service.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> >
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xi
> > a-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> >
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&
> >
w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8cAg
> > nmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> >
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United
> >
+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1kjX
> > QVm82g5Q>
> > > >
> > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> >
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> >
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ8
> > wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> >
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04
> > -Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> >
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> >
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAby
> > WJhxvVxdvw>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > >
> > > > * Visit your group "
> > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
> > the web.
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> > subject=Unsubscribe>
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> > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> > * Visit your group "
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on the web.
> >
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> > <mailto:[email protected]?
subject=Unsubscribe>
> >
> > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
>
>
>
>
>

My understanding is that there was some flooding which necessitated
removal of the bones from the coffins. As we seem to be finding out with
the discoveries of burials in various repositories, it is sometimes
difficult to identify remains. I assume the actual coffins were fairly
generic, but I could be wrong.

I certainly didn't see any coffins, nor did I get too far into the
crypt. If I remember correctly, the bones were directly in front of the
foot of the stairs.

My sense at the time was that the bones were displayed in this manner as
a tourist draw, but this assessment was too harsh. I wrongly assumed
that the the bones had been removed from the coffins and exhibited for
effect. I realize that I was wrong, since the abbey was certainly was
not advertising the bones at the time. It was only by chance that I got
to see them. I think I was a little jaundiced, since I have been to
historic sites that are designed to be tourist traps. And many 'helpful'
individuals expect you to give them the price of a pint. Fair enough, I
suppose.

I forgot to mention another serendipitous discovery: Beauchamp Chapel at
Warwick. I was getting tired of the canned tour of Warwick Castle and
decided to visit St. Mary's. The priest saw me viewing the Beauchamp
tombs in the sanctuary, and told me I should follow him. We entered the
chapel, and I stopped speechless. What an amazing sight. The Richard
Beauchamp tomb had just undergone some restoration work, and was stunning.

I think one of the problems we colonials face is that our history is
fairly recent. There is little patina on our past. For this reason,
sights such as Beauchamp Chapel may be a little more significant for us
than they are for some of the locals who are surrounded by these
treasures from birth.

eileen wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > Good question.
> >
> > There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
> > Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.
> >
> > For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century Gothicism. I
> > was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My friend and
> > I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door
> behind
> > the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked ominously. We
> > went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
> > piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight before, so
> > felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.
>
> Bill - If I recall correctly I have seen a photo of the crypt with 1
> or 2 empty stone coffins in
> there - is that right?
>
> If that is the case maybe that is where the bones originated from -
> although it may well be
> that there were others other than Clarence and Isobel buried down there.
>
> Eileen
> >
> > A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six inches
> > away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the history of
> > the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had that is
> > similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of Tiberius, who
> > was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the
> sensation
> > as electrifying.
> >
> > Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be those of
> > Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the bones
> > of more than two individuals have been mixed together.
> >
> > I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also intrigued by
> > the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
> > Tewkesbury.
> >
> > At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
> > objects. I take it that not many have done so.
> >
> > eileen wrote:
> > > --- In , Bill Barber
> > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years
> > > ago, I
> > > > simply asked and was taken down.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue them -
> > > UK members of the
> > > forum will know what I am talking about - for example beautiful horse
> > > chestnut trees are
> > > felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will sue
> > > - children in some
> > > schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case
> one of
> > > them gets
> > > injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
> > > they can sue you if
> > > your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
> > > enough staff there to
> > > escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
> > >
> > > By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > wendy wrote:
> > > > > Eileen,
> > > > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually
> get into
> > > > > the crypt?
> > > > >
> > > > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> > > > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Wendy
> > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: eileen
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> > > > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking.
> Stood
> > > > > by the great door and
> > > > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay
> by the
> > > > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in
> state
> > > > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> > > > > marking where Prince
> > > > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> > > > > buried in such an important
> > > > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not
> have
> > > > > been treated with
> > > > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged
> this? His
> > > > > earthly remains were
> > > > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > > > treatment meted out to
> > > > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> > > > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps,
> which
> > > are
> > > > > very worn leading
> > > > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to
> whether the
> > > > > bones that are in the
> > > > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> > > > > those of George and
> > > > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
> > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> > > > >
> > > > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
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> > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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> > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of
> > > > > Service.
> > > > >
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> > > > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > --
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> > >
> =United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xi
> > > a-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> > >
> ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&
> > >
> w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8cAg
> > > nmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> > >
> m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United
> > >
> +kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1kjX
> > > QVm82g5Q>
> > > > >
> > > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> > >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> > >
> d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ8
> > > wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> > >
> +kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> > >
> =United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04
> > > -Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > >
> t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> > >
> om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> > >
> d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAby
> > > WJhxvVxdvw>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > * Visit your group "
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> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/>" on
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>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--- In , Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>

> >
> I forgot to mention another serendipitous discovery: Beauchamp Chapel at
> Warwick. I was getting tired of the canned tour of Warwick Castle and
> decided to visit St. Mary's. The priest saw me viewing the Beauchamp
> tombs in the sanctuary, and told me I should follow him. We entered the
> chapel, and I stopped speechless. What an amazing sight. The Richard
> Beauchamp tomb had just undergone some restoration work, and was stunning.
>
Now I did find the guides at St Mary's extremely helpful/knowledgeable. I suppose it is
just pot luck who will be there on the day you visit.

> I think one of the problems we colonials face is that our history is
> fairly recent. There is little patina on our past. For this reason,
> sights such as Beauchamp Chapel may be a little more significant for us
> than they are for some of the locals who are surrounded by these
> treasures from birth.

True, true - how many Londoners do you get visiting Westminster Abbey for example.
Very few - I found this very strange at one time which you consider the history/beauty of
the abbey - just to stand and gaze at the coronation chair and to remember how many
royal bottoms have been sat there!! How can you possibly top that. But no it would seem
most Londoners would prefer Madam Taussauds - even then if you are visiting London
and you like waxworks do not miss the London Dungeon at London Bridge - much better.

Eileen
>
> eileen wrote:
> > --- In , Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Good question.
> > >
> > > There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
> > > Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.
> > >
> > > For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century Gothicism. I
> > > was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My friend and
> > > I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door
> > behind
> > > the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked ominously. We
> > > went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
> > > piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight before, so
> > > felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.
> >
> > Bill - If I recall correctly I have seen a photo of the crypt with 1
> > or 2 empty stone coffins in
> > there - is that right?
> >
> > If that is the case maybe that is where the bones originated from -
> > although it may well be
> > that there were others other than Clarence and Isobel buried down there.
> >
> > Eileen
> > >
> > > A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six inches
> > > away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the history of
> > > the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had that is
> > > similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of Tiberius, who
> > > was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the
> > sensation
> > > as electrifying.
> > >
> > > Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be those of
> > > Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the bones
> > > of more than two individuals have been mixed together.
> > >
> > > I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also intrigued by
> > > the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
> > > Tewkesbury.
> > >
> > > At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
> > > objects. I take it that not many have done so.
> > >
> > > eileen wrote:
> > > > --- In , Bill Barber
> > > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty years
> > > > ago, I
> > > > > simply asked and was taken down.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue them -
> > > > UK members of the
> > > > forum will know what I am talking about - for example beautiful horse
> > > > chestnut trees are
> > > > felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they will sue
> > > > - children in some
> > > > schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case
> > one of
> > > > them gets
> > > > injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
> > > > they can sue you if
> > > > your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
> > > > enough staff there to
> > > > escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
> > > >
> > > > By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
> > > >
> > > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > wendy wrote:
> > > > > > Eileen,
> > > > > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually
> > get into
> > > > > > the crypt?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or have I
> > > > > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Wendy
> > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: eileen
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > > > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds - visited
> > > > > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > > > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought provoking.
> > Stood
> > > > > > by the great door and
> > > > > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of sanctuay
> > by the
> > > > > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > > > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body laid in
> > state
> > > > > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > > > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of the choir
> > > > > > marking where Prince
> > > > > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that he was
> > > > > > buried in such an important
> > > > > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > > > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > > > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would not
> > have
> > > > > > been treated with
> > > > > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged
> > this? His
> > > > > > earthly remains were
> > > > > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > > > > treatment meted out to
> > > > > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > > > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the crypt where
> > > > > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > > > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps,
> > which
> > > > are
> > > > > > very worn leading
> > > > > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to
> > whether the
> > > > > > bones that are in the
> > > > > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the crypt are
> > > > > > those of George and
> > > > > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > > > > Eileen
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > > a.. Visit your group "" on the web.
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> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > >
> > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > United kingdom calling card
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> > > >
> >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> > > >
> >
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xi
> > > > a-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
> > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=Unit
> > > >
> >
ed+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&
> > > >
> >
w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=8cAg
> > > > nmTQK8hWQSrT09Gf-w>
> > > > > > Call united kingdom
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=Call+united+kingdom&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdo
> > > >
> >
m+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United
> > > >
> >
+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=LtswW8ZiUV1kjX
> > > > QVm82g5Q>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > United kingdom florist
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+florist&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> > > >
> >
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> > > >
> >
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=fGW6B8GVBZ8
> > > > wHiilib0-FQ>
> > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+phone+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United
> > > >
> >
+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5
> > > >
> >
=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=1nHG04
> > > > -Q_xgyixOcRbHjrA>
> > > > > > United kingdom hotel
> > > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> > > >
> >
t=ms&k=United+kingdom+hotel&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingd
> > > >
> >
om+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=Unite
> > > >
> >
d+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4O6cijxeGAby
> > > > WJhxvVxdvw>
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>

I had the same guide in 1971 and 1975. He was one of the priests, but I
forget his name. He was retiring to become a Franciscan. I asked how an
Anglican priest could do that, and he had some kind of convoluted
answer. I'm a Methodist/Presbyterian mix, so I really don't 'get' the
high churches. It seems the Catholics and Anglicans aren't at each
other's throats anymore.

When I was a kid in small town Ontario, there were still divisions
between the Protestants and Catholics. I wasn't supposed to date
Catholic girls, but I did so with great alacrity. There's something
about a southern European girl dressed in black stockings and a tartan
kilt that's quite alluring.

There were also massive parades on the Glorious Twelfth.

I suppose things have changed over the last fifty years. The most
violent thing that members of the Orange Lodges in Ontario do these days
is to play euchre: Canadian rules, not American rules.

eileen wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
>
> > >
> > I forgot to mention another serendipitous discovery: Beauchamp
> Chapel at
> > Warwick. I was getting tired of the canned tour of Warwick Castle and
> > decided to visit it. Mary's. The priest saw me viewing the Beauchamp
> > tombs in the sanctuary, and told me I should follow him. We entered
> the
> > chapel, and I stopped speechless. What an amazing sight. The Richard
> > Beauchamp tomb had just undergone some restoration work, and was
> stunning.
> >
> Now I did find the guides at St Mary's extremely
> helpful/knowledgeable. I suppose it is
> just pot luck who will be there on the day you visit.
>
> > I think one of the problems we colonials face is that our history is
> > fairly recent. There is little patina on our past. For this reason,
> > sights such as Beauchamp Chapel may be a little more significant for us
> > than they are for some of the locals who are surrounded by these
> > treasures from birth.
>
> True, true - how many Londoners do you get visiting Westminster Abbey
> for example.
> Very few - I found this very strange at one time which you consider
> the history/beauty of
> the abbey - just to stand and gaze at the coronation chair and to
> remember how many
> royal bottoms have been sat there!! How can you possibly top that.
> But no it would seem
> most Londoners would prefer Madam Taussauds - even then if you are
> visiting London
> and you like waxworks do not miss the London Dungeon at London Bridge
> - much better.
>
> Eileen
> >
> > eileen wrote:
> > > --- In , Bill Barber
> > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Good question.
> > > >
> > > > There is a picture of the bones of Clarence and Isobel on page122 of
> > > > Hicks' /*Richard III*/. This view is pretty much what I saw.
> > > >
> > > > For me the experience had overtones of nineteenth century
> Gothicism. I
> > > > was there in July, 1975, with my wife and another couple. My
> friend and
> > > > I asked where Clarence was buried, and were led to the crypt door
> > > behind
> > > > the altar. The volunteer lifted the door, which creaked
> ominously. We
> > > > went down the stairs, and were immediately confronted by two sets of
> > > > piled bones in a backlit case. I had never seen such a sight
> before, so
> > > > felt a bit apprehensive. The crypt had a 'haunted' feel.
> > >
> > > Bill - If I recall correctly I have seen a photo of the crypt with 1
> > > or 2 empty stone coffins in
> > > there - is that right?
> > >
> > > If that is the case maybe that is where the bones originated from -
> > > although it may well be
> > > that there were others other than Clarence and Isobel buried down
> there.
> > >
> > > Eileen
> > > >
> > > > A real shock came with realization that I was standing about six
> inches
> > > > away from two individuals who figured so prominently in the
> history of
> > > > the late fifteenth century. The only other experience I've had
> that is
> > > > similar to one is holding a gold coin from the reign of
> Tiberius, who
> > > > was emperor when Christ was crucified. I can only describe the
> > > sensation
> > > > as electrifying.
> > > >
> > > > Am a little miffed that the bones are now only 'alleged' to be
> those of
> > > > Clarence and Isobel, and that there is some indication, that the
> bones
> > > > of more than two individuals have been mixed together.
> > > >
> > > > I saw the plaque to Edward, Prince of Wales, and was also
> intrigued by
> > > > the interior door, faced in fragments of shields from the Battle of
> > > > Tewkesbury.
> > > >
> > > > At the time, I didn't realize how privileged I had been to see these
> > > > objects. I take it that not many have done so.
> > > >
> > > > eileen wrote:
> > > > > --- In , Bill Barber
> > > > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Things may have changed, but when I was at Tewksbury thirty
> years
> > > > > ago, I
> > > > > > simply asked and was taken down.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Well it may be that they are afraid someone might slip and sue
> them -
> > > > > UK members of the
> > > > > forum will know what I am talking about - for example
> beautiful horse
> > > > > chestnut trees are
> > > > > felled because a conker might fall on someones head and they
> will sue
> > > > > - children in some
> > > > > schools now have to wear goggles when they play conkers in case
> > > one of
> > > > > them gets
> > > > > injured and they sue, if someone breaks into your house to rob you
> > > > > they can sue you if
> > > > > your hurt them - I could go on and on. Or maybe they do not have
> > > > > enough staff there to
> > > > > escort people down. Let us know how you get on Wendy?
> > > > >
> > > > > By the way Bill, what did you see when you were down there?
> > > > >
> > > > > Eileen
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > wendy wrote:
> > > > > > > Eileen,
> > > > > > > I'll be there next month. Is there anyway one can actually
> > > get into
> > > > > > > the crypt?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And does anyone know any good resources about Isobel? Or
> have I
> > > > > > > exhausted what's out there except for household rolls.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Wendy
> > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > [email protected]
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: eileen
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 5:07 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Tewkesbury Abbey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Just got back from a week in the beautiful Cotswolds -
> visited
> > > > > > > Tewkesbury Abbey and
> > > > > > > followed the battle trail close by - very thought
> provoking.
> > > Stood
> > > > > > > by the great door and
> > > > > > > thought about the Lancastrians being dragged out of
> sanctuay
> > > by the
> > > > > > > Yorkists. While in the
> > > > > > > abbey stood in the choir where Isobel Neville's body
> laid in
> > > state
> > > > > > > for 30 days. Stood and
> > > > > > > took it all in. Saw the bronze tablet on the floor of
> the choir
> > > > > > > marking where Prince
> > > > > > > Edward's body buried. A bit surprised by the fact that
> he was
> > > > > > > buried in such an important
> > > > > > > spot - his mother taken prisoner by Edward & his father
> > > > > > > dead/murdered very soon after
> > > > > > > the battle you would have thought that his remains would
> not
> > > have
> > > > > > > been treated with
> > > > > > > such, well shall I say honour, I wonder who arranged
> > > this? His
> > > > > > > earthly remains were
> > > > > > > certainly treated with more respect by the Yorkists than the
> > > > > > > treatment meted out to
> > > > > > > Richard's by Tudor.
> > > > > > > Oh yes, saw the grille covering the entrance to the
> crypt where
> > > > > > > Clarence and Isobel were
> > > > > > > buried - very dark, you can just make out the stone steps,
> > > which
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > very worn leading
> > > > > > > down into the darkness - eek! very creepy!! But as to
> > > whether the
> > > > > > > bones that are in the
> > > > > > > box that has been taken from show and returned to the
> crypt are
> > > > > > > those of George and
> > > > > > > Isobel - no-one could tell me??
> > > > > > > Eileen
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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Main reason is my own, why should I pay to visit part of my heritage
and be pushed through along with all the tourists, and get told where
to go and not be allowed to stand and contemplate in some areas. I
sneaked into the tombs of the kings one day having sat through a very
dull service (choir apart) only to get shouted at when an official
discovered me. I tried to tell him how I felt, but he wasn't
interested, and told me to come back later and pay!
Not too many Londoners can afford to go to Madame Tussauds any more.
It is outrageously expensive!
Paul

On 4 Apr 2006, at 20:54, eileen wrote:

> True, true - how many Londoners do you get visiting Westminster
> Abbey for example.
> Very few - I found this very strange at one time which you consider
> the history/beauty of
> the abbey - just to stand and gaze at the coronation chair and to
> remember how many
> royal bottoms have been sat there!!

"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"

--- In , Paul Trevor Bale <paultrevor@...> wrote:
>
> Main reason is my own, why should I pay to visit part of my heritage
> and be pushed through along with all the tourists, and get told where
> to go and not be allowed to stand and contemplate in some areas. I
> sneaked into the tombs of the kings one day having sat through a very
> dull service (choir apart) only to get shouted at when an official
> discovered me. I tried to tell him how I felt, but he wasn't
> interested, and told me to come back later and pay!
Paul

Wot? Are you telling me you have to pay to go into the abbey!! I havent visited from some
time!
> Not too many Londoners can afford to go to Madame Tussauds any more.
> It is outrageously expensive!
> Paul

Im not surprised! - how can anyone afford to go anywhere after they have paid their
council tax, fuel bills, parking fees blah blah :-(

Eileen



>
> On 4 Apr 2006, at 20:54, eileen wrote:
>
> > True, true - how many Londoners do you get visiting Westminster
> > Abbey for example.
> > Very few - I found this very strange at one time which you consider
> > the history/beauty of
> > the abbey - just to stand and gaze at the coronation chair and to
> > remember how many
> > royal bottoms have been sat there!!
>
> "a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
>

How things must have changed since last I was there.

Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
> Main reason is my own, why should I pay to visit part of my heritage
> and be pushed through along with all the tourists, and get told where
> to go and not be allowed to stand and contemplate in some areas. I
> sneaked into the tombs of the kings one day having sat through a very
> dull service (choir apart) only to get shouted at when an official
> discovered me. I tried to tell him how I felt, but he wasn't
> interested, and told me to come back later and pay!
> Not too many Londoners can afford to go to Madame Tussauds any more.
> It is outrageously expensive!
> Paul
>
> On 4 Apr 2006, at 20:54, eileen wrote:
>
> > True, true - how many Londoners do you get visiting Westminster
> > Abbey for example.
> > Very few - I found this very strange at one time which you consider
> > the history/beauty of
> > the abbey - just to stand and gaze at the coronation chair and to
> > remember how many
> > royal bottoms have been sat there!!
>
> "a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
>
>
>
>
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On 4 Apr 2006, at 23:05, eileen wrote:

> --- In , Paul Trevor Bale
> <paultrevor@...> wrote:
>>
>> Main reason is my own, why should I pay to visit part of my heritage
>> and be pushed through along with all the tourists, and get told where
>> to go and not be allowed to stand and contemplate in some areas. I
>> sneaked into the tombs of the kings one day having sat through a very
>> dull service (choir apart) only to get shouted at when an official
>> discovered me. I tried to tell him how I felt, but he wasn't
>> interested, and told me to come back later and pay!
> Paul
>
> Wot? Are you telling me you have to pay to go into the abbey!! I
> havent visited from some
> time!

Afraid to say that although the main part of the Abbey is still free,
that is the nave, from the altar back, through the part with all the
tombs in, you have to pay and join with all the tourists.
Paul

"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"

Afraid to say that although the main part of the Abbey is still free,
that is the nave, from the altar back, through the part with all the
tombs in, you have to pay and join with all the tourists.
Paul

Westminster Abbey must win the prize for the most money-grubbing church in the UK, and they can't even plead poverty. "Our" heritage is only "ours" when they want us to pay for it - otherwise it's strictly "theirs".

Always amusing to write "Matthew, c21,v13." in the visitors book of such establishments.

Brian

I know how you feel. I visited Tewskbery Abbey c1993 and we found an
entrance fee was now being charged. Only the amount wasminimal my dad refused to
pay because of the principal of paying to go into our churchs. So I missed
out on that one. Still the church at Fotheringhay was fabulous. I also visited
the Beauchamp chapel and found it brilliant then. I also loved the Lettuce
Knolleys monument. I realise in these crime ridden days that we cannot just
go in any church but I miss that both from an historic view but also the
peace you find in churches

In a message dated 4/5/2006 11:07:59 AM Mountain Standard Time,
Brian@... writes:

Afraid to say that although the main part of the Abbey is still free,
that is the nave, from the altar back, through the part with all the
tombs in, you have to pay and join with all the tourists.
Paul

Westminster Abbey must win the prize for the most money-grubbing church in
the UK, and they can't even plead poverty. "Our" heritage is only "ours" when
they want us to pay for it - otherwise it's strictly "theirs".

Always amusing to write "Matthew, c21,v13." in the visitors book of such
establishments.

Brian
---------------------------------
A "den of thieves," eh?

Paul, my impression back in 2003 was that one had to pay to get into W.
Abbey at all, from which point one could freely roam around, elbow-to-elbow
with hundreds of little tour groups guided in every conceivable language.
But perhaps one can get in free via the west entrance as before; I haven't
bothered to try since. I remember getting in free back in the '90's, but
being
limited to the west end up to the point of the choir, unless one signed up
for
a "Supertour."

The Supertour had one moving along at a brisk pace: "Here's Elizabeth I's
tomb...now moving along to the next tomb...", so I prefer having the ability
to freely roam around and return to things I may have missed. I passed by
Philippa of Hainault's tomb, then wondered how I could have missed it after
it had been pointed out to me.

St. Paul's Cathedral charges admission, too, although I believe it's "free"
to
anyone with a London Pass or an English Heritage (member) card; I don't
recall whether the GBH, Great British Heritage Pass, covers this. One must
also pay to get into York Minster, too, but at least they freely allow
photography. Apparently, they did a study to see what percentage of
visitors gave a donation (of any amount), and the result was 25%.

The vast majority of churches still depend on voluntary contributions, which
they suggest should be £3-5, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all the
popular
places start charging.

LML,
Pam

I can't say I'm surprised. Pollution is eroding much of our built
heritage, and the cost of restoration is very high. If we were to pay
the tab through taxes only, we would all be bankrupt.

When I was a museum curator, I spent a tremendous amount of my time
fundraising. Didn't necessarily like doing it, but it was the only way I
could purchase the artifacts I needed and fund educational programmes.

I would assume that the strict regimentation of crowds is for security
purposes. Don't like it either, but the masses can be hard on
collections and building fabric.

Brian Wainwright wrote:
>
>
> Afraid to say that although the main part of the Abbey is still free,
> that is the nave, from the altar back, through the part with all the
> tombs in, you have to pay and join with all the tourists.
> Paul
>
> Westminster Abbey must win the prize for the most money-grubbing
> church in the UK, and they can't even plead poverty. "Our" heritage is
> only "ours" when they want us to pay for it - otherwise it's strictly
> "theirs".
>
> Always amusing to write "Matthew, c21,v13." in the visitors book of
> such establishments.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
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Yes Pam, I think we went in the side door which leads straight into
the cash desk! I've been a few times since then and have always gone
in the west door where you can get in free, if they feel so inclined
that is! There are a number of excuses to keep people away, so the
best time is always when a service is about to begin. You can enjoy
the choir and sit and contemplate for a while, then sneak quickly
back into the ticket area as I do!
Yes, all monuments need a lot of money to keep them in a good state
of repair, and I don't mind making a contribution, but having to
stand in line to pay a large sum when it is my heritage I object to.
Westminster is the biggest charger, and as you remember, they
shepherd you around very fast and give you little time to stand and
think about things.
Haven't been to St Pauls in ages, maybe I should do a bit of research.
Paul

On 5 Apr 2006, at 19:46, PamelaJButler@... wrote:

> Paul, my impression back in 2003 was that one had to pay to get
> into W.
> Abbey at all, from which point one could freely roam around, elbow-
> to-elbow
> with hundreds of little tour groups guided in every conceivable
> language.
> But perhaps one can get in free via the west entrance as before; I
> haven't
> bothered to try since. I remember getting in free back in the
> '90's, but
> being
> limited to the west end up to the point of the choir, unless one
> signed up
> for
> a "Supertour."
>
> The Supertour had one moving along at a brisk pace: "Here's
> Elizabeth I's
> tomb...now moving along to the next tomb...", so I prefer having
> the ability
> to freely roam around and return to things I may have missed. I
> passed by
> Philippa of Hainault's tomb, then wondered how I could have missed
> it after
> it had been pointed out to me.
>
> St. Paul's Cathedral charges admission, too, although I believe
> it's "free"
> to
> anyone with a London Pass or an English Heritage (member) card; I
> don't
> recall whether the GBH, Great British Heritage Pass, covers this.
> One must
> also pay to get into York Minster, too, but at least they freely allow
> photography. Apparently, they did a study to see what percentage of
> visitors gave a donation (of any amount), and the result was 25%.
>
> The vast majority of churches still depend on voluntary
> contributions, which
> they suggest should be £3-5, but I wouldn't be surprised to see all
> the
> popular
> places start charging.
>
> LML,
> Pam
>

"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"

It's amazing W. Abbey can carve out some time for actual services!

The time it takes to stand in line can certainly wear on one's nerves,
and the worst I've ever encountered anywhere was Madame Tussaud's
in the '90's. Never been back. I haven't been in St. Paul's for awhile,
either.

Visiting the Temple Church at that time turned out to be a good idea.
I'll bet lots of people are already going through it on "Da Vinci Code"
tours.

LML,
Pam
-------------------------------------
In a message dated 4/5/2006 6:35:15 PM Mountain Standard Time,
paultrevor@... writes:

Yes Pam, I think we went in the side door which leads straight into
the cash desk! I've been a few times since then and have always gone
in the west door where you can get in free, if they feel so inclined
that is! There are a number of excuses to keep people away, so the
best time is always when a service is about to begin. You can enjoy
the choir and sit and contemplate for a while, then sneak quickly
back into the ticket area as I do!
Yes, all monuments need a lot of money to keep them in a good state
of repair, and I don't mind making a contribution, but having to
stand in line to pay a large sum when it is my heritage I object to.
Westminster is the biggest charger, and as you remember, they
shepherd you around very fast and give you little time to stand and
think about things.
Haven't been to St Pauls in ages, maybe I should do a bit of research.
Paul

I remember visiting the Temple Church in 1971. I wanted specifically to
see the tomb of William Marshall, who must have been quite formidable in
his time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Marshal,_1st_Earl_of_Pembroke#Biography

PamelaJButler@... wrote:
>
> It's amazing W. Abbey can carve out some time for actual services!
>
> The time it takes to stand in line can certainly wear on one's nerves,
> and the worst I've ever encountered anywhere was Madame Tussaud's
> in the '90's. Never been back. I haven't been in St. Paul's for awhile,
> either.
>
> Visiting the Temple Church at that time turned out to be a good idea.
> I'll bet lots of people are already going through it on "Da Vinci Code"
> tours.
>
> LML,
> Pam
> -------------------------------------
> In a message dated 4/5/2006 6:35:15 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> paultrevor@... writes:
>
> Yes Pam, I think we went in the side door which leads straight into
> the cash desk! I've been a few times since then and have always gone
> in the west door where you can get in free, if they feel so inclined
> that is! There are a number of excuses to keep people away, so the
> best time is always when a service is about to begin. You can enjoy
> the choir and sit and contemplate for a while, then sneak quickly
> back into the ticket area as I do!
> Yes, all monuments need a lot of money to keep them in a good state
> of repair, and I don't mind making a contribution, but having to
> stand in line to pay a large sum when it is my heritage I object to.
> Westminster is the biggest charger, and as you remember, they
> shepherd you around very fast and give you little time to stand and
> think about things.
> Haven't been to St Pauls in ages, maybe I should do a bit of research.
> Paul
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
> United kingdom calling card
> <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=United+kingdom+calling+card&w1=United+kingdom+calling+card&w2=United+kingdom+flower+delivery&w3=Call+united+kingdom&w4=United+kingdom+florist&w5=United+kingdom+phone+card&w6=United+kingdom+hotel&c=6&s=179&.sig=4GGc4xia-6uj4vkwxeda1w>
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