queen anne's influence/ wheel of fortune
queen anne's influence/ wheel of fortune
2006-04-22 02:44:36
"I believe its the same with our views of the lives of people in the
past of any remove. They lived the lives of their time. In our
favorite era, it was not at all unusual for a lucky individual to
outlive several spouses and several children. Up to the advent of
anesthesia and antisepsis in the mid 19th century, a pregnant woman
had a one-in-five chance of dying in in childbirth or from
complications of pregnancy. Not in her lifetime -- with each
pregnancy. The wheel of fortune was a popular and well-understood
symbol...in every life fortune would wax and wane. As the old
children's story said "This, too, shall pass." People expected to
live through all sorts of good times and bad."
I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
I mean, I am sure that physically, my 15th C peasant ancestors could have kicked her royal inbred behind...those were the people who really got knocked around, not only by the Wheel of Fortune, but also by the very men we are talking about.
And it is hard to imagine how these women survived the winds of change during the War of the Roses with the ever changing loyalties of their husbands and fathers. How does Anne deal with the fact that Clarence's change of heart sealed the fate of her father? Or that her father married her off to a boy she had always thought of as the enemy... or that he dumped her sister on a boat while she was eight months pregnant.... I know the English are known for their stiff upper lips, but she had to have some feelings about these things....feelings influenced by the era she lived in...but feelings.
Which leads me to why she is even more of an inigma ...when you put her up against her predecesors, Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville... they were so obviously playing the game.
Angie
past of any remove. They lived the lives of their time. In our
favorite era, it was not at all unusual for a lucky individual to
outlive several spouses and several children. Up to the advent of
anesthesia and antisepsis in the mid 19th century, a pregnant woman
had a one-in-five chance of dying in in childbirth or from
complications of pregnancy. Not in her lifetime -- with each
pregnancy. The wheel of fortune was a popular and well-understood
symbol...in every life fortune would wax and wane. As the old
children's story said "This, too, shall pass." People expected to
live through all sorts of good times and bad."
I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
I mean, I am sure that physically, my 15th C peasant ancestors could have kicked her royal inbred behind...those were the people who really got knocked around, not only by the Wheel of Fortune, but also by the very men we are talking about.
And it is hard to imagine how these women survived the winds of change during the War of the Roses with the ever changing loyalties of their husbands and fathers. How does Anne deal with the fact that Clarence's change of heart sealed the fate of her father? Or that her father married her off to a boy she had always thought of as the enemy... or that he dumped her sister on a boat while she was eight months pregnant.... I know the English are known for their stiff upper lips, but she had to have some feelings about these things....feelings influenced by the era she lived in...but feelings.
Which leads me to why she is even more of an inigma ...when you put her up against her predecesors, Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville... they were so obviously playing the game.
Angie
Re: queen anne's influence/ wheel of fortune
2006-04-22 06:19:59
--- In , "Angie Flanagan"
<aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
> I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a
talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is
more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She
is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to
come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's
designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have
ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least
deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife
Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
The more one delves into the Middle Ages, the more interesting lives
one finds. I think practically every person whose names have come down
to us is worthy of a biography. Jean Plaidy wrote about quite a few of
them in what I consider a superficial way, but there are plenty left.
Katy
<aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
> I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a
talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is
more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She
is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to
come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's
designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have
ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least
deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife
Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
The more one delves into the Middle Ages, the more interesting lives
one finds. I think practically every person whose names have come down
to us is worthy of a biography. Jean Plaidy wrote about quite a few of
them in what I consider a superficial way, but there are plenty left.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] queen anne's influence/ wheel of fo
2006-04-22 18:09:04
Angie -
I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They lived the lives of their time." That is exactly what Anne Neville did, and I'm positive she did it with dignity, which is why she's been portrayed as weak and unassuming throughout the ages.
At the same time, however, I can't help but feel a pang of sorrow for Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville as well - especially Margaret of Anjou.
Think of it, the poor fifteen-year-old girl packed up and sent to enemy lands, married off to a monkish, insane king, and then expected to punch out son after son, while the entire country criticized for her heritage! That would turn any woman into a harpy - and rightly so! Plus, she was queen; she had the luxury of venting her emotions.
Once her son came along, who could blame her for loving him to a fault and protecting what she thought was his birthright.
I find it hard to believe that our ancestors lacked the core emotions we humans have today - of course, they didn't. The only thing that has changed is perception.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not turning Lancastrian!
As for Elizabeth Woodville...She's a tricky one.
What widow without much potential in the marriage market wouldn't jump at the chance to become queen – especially when the king was handsome, agreeable, and not some old, foisty, half-wit thrust upon her against her will. Any woman of that era would have jumped at the chance. (As would most women today)
Personally, I don't believe Elizabeth went into the marriage intending to malign and wage battle against Edward's family and friends. Like Margaret, the crown accommodated Elizabeth certain behavior, which women like Anne Neville would never have considered displaying - especially in public - even when she became queen.
I feel that Anne Neville was an intelligent woman, astute enough to have learned true majesty by witnessing the affect the crown had upon Margaret and Elizabeth and merging it with the callous lessons thrust upon her by her father. Acquiring a decent and probably loving husband like Richard was mere icing, and proof that fortune's wheel did indeed turn for those who waited patiently.
Angie Flanagan <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
"I believe its the same with our views of the lives of people in the
past of any remove. They lived the lives of their time. In our
favorite era, it was not at all unusual for a lucky individual to
outlive several spouses and several children. Up to the advent of
anesthesia and antisepsis in the mid 19th century, a pregnant woman
had a one-in-five chance of dying in in childbirth or from
complications of pregnancy. Not in her lifetime -- with each
pregnancy. The wheel of fortune was a popular and well-understood
symbol...in every life fortune would wax and wane. As the old
children's story said "This, too, shall pass." People expected to
live through all sorts of good times and bad."
I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
I mean, I am sure that physically, my 15th C peasant ancestors could have kicked her royal inbred behind...those were the people who really got knocked around, not only by the Wheel of Fortune, but also by the very men we are talking about.
And it is hard to imagine how these women survived the winds of change during the War of the Roses with the ever changing loyalties of their husbands and fathers. How does Anne deal with the fact that Clarence's change of heart sealed the fate of her father? Or that her father married her off to a boy she had always thought of as the enemy... or that he dumped her sister on a boat while she was eight months pregnant.... I know the English are known for their stiff upper lips, but she had to have some feelings about these things....feelings influenced by the era she lived in...but feelings.
Which leads me to why she is even more of an inigma ...when you put her up against her predecesors, Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville... they were so obviously playing the game.
Angie
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I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They lived the lives of their time." That is exactly what Anne Neville did, and I'm positive she did it with dignity, which is why she's been portrayed as weak and unassuming throughout the ages.
At the same time, however, I can't help but feel a pang of sorrow for Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville as well - especially Margaret of Anjou.
Think of it, the poor fifteen-year-old girl packed up and sent to enemy lands, married off to a monkish, insane king, and then expected to punch out son after son, while the entire country criticized for her heritage! That would turn any woman into a harpy - and rightly so! Plus, she was queen; she had the luxury of venting her emotions.
Once her son came along, who could blame her for loving him to a fault and protecting what she thought was his birthright.
I find it hard to believe that our ancestors lacked the core emotions we humans have today - of course, they didn't. The only thing that has changed is perception.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not turning Lancastrian!
As for Elizabeth Woodville...She's a tricky one.
What widow without much potential in the marriage market wouldn't jump at the chance to become queen – especially when the king was handsome, agreeable, and not some old, foisty, half-wit thrust upon her against her will. Any woman of that era would have jumped at the chance. (As would most women today)
Personally, I don't believe Elizabeth went into the marriage intending to malign and wage battle against Edward's family and friends. Like Margaret, the crown accommodated Elizabeth certain behavior, which women like Anne Neville would never have considered displaying - especially in public - even when she became queen.
I feel that Anne Neville was an intelligent woman, astute enough to have learned true majesty by witnessing the affect the crown had upon Margaret and Elizabeth and merging it with the callous lessons thrust upon her by her father. Acquiring a decent and probably loving husband like Richard was mere icing, and proof that fortune's wheel did indeed turn for those who waited patiently.
Angie Flanagan <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
"I believe its the same with our views of the lives of people in the
past of any remove. They lived the lives of their time. In our
favorite era, it was not at all unusual for a lucky individual to
outlive several spouses and several children. Up to the advent of
anesthesia and antisepsis in the mid 19th century, a pregnant woman
had a one-in-five chance of dying in in childbirth or from
complications of pregnancy. Not in her lifetime -- with each
pregnancy. The wheel of fortune was a popular and well-understood
symbol...in every life fortune would wax and wane. As the old
children's story said "This, too, shall pass." People expected to
live through all sorts of good times and bad."
I agree with you, but I think in the case of Anne Neville, we a talking about an extraodinary life, even for her time period. There is more to her story than outliving spouses and surviving child birth. She is linked to many of the power houses of her time, she continued to come up ahead, and, ironic or not, she managed to fulfill her father's designs for her and became the Queen of England. She could easily have ended up in a nunnery after her father died. I think she at least deserves the conjecture that she was more than the wimpy wife Shakespear, and subsequent fiction writers, make her out to be.
I mean, I am sure that physically, my 15th C peasant ancestors could have kicked her royal inbred behind...those were the people who really got knocked around, not only by the Wheel of Fortune, but also by the very men we are talking about.
And it is hard to imagine how these women survived the winds of change during the War of the Roses with the ever changing loyalties of their husbands and fathers. How does Anne deal with the fact that Clarence's change of heart sealed the fate of her father? Or that her father married her off to a boy she had always thought of as the enemy... or that he dumped her sister on a boat while she was eight months pregnant.... I know the English are known for their stiff upper lips, but she had to have some feelings about these things....feelings influenced by the era she lived in...but feelings.
Which leads me to why she is even more of an inigma ...when you put her up against her predecesors, Margaret of Anjou and Elizabeth Woodville... they were so obviously playing the game.
Angie
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Re: [Richard III Society Forum] queen anne's influence/ wheel of fo
2006-04-22 21:02:46
--- In , Sheri Vangen-Ratcliffe
<ladyrat1442@...> wrote:
>
>
> Angie -
> I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They
lived the lives of their time."
Actually. I (Katy) said that...Angie was quoting my earlier post in
order to reply to it.
Thank you.
Katy
<ladyrat1442@...> wrote:
>
>
> Angie -
> I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They
lived the lives of their time."
Actually. I (Katy) said that...Angie was quoting my earlier post in
order to reply to it.
Thank you.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] queen anne's influence/ wheel of fo
2006-04-22 21:52:36
Sorry for the misquote.
oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote: --- In , Sheri Vangen-Ratcliffe
<ladyrat1442@...> wrote:
>
>
> Angie -
> I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They
lived the lives of their time."
Actually. I (Katy) said that...Angie was quoting my earlier post in
order to reply to it.
Thank you.
Katy
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oregonkaty <[email protected]> wrote: --- In , Sheri Vangen-Ratcliffe
<ladyrat1442@...> wrote:
>
>
> Angie -
> I think you summed it up eloquently with your statement, "They
lived the lives of their time."
Actually. I (Katy) said that...Angie was quoting my earlier post in
order to reply to it.
Thank you.
Katy
---------------------------------
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queen anne's influence/ wheel of fortune
2006-04-23 20:40:07
Sheri,
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] queen anne's influence/ wheel of fo
2006-04-23 22:56:17
there may have been a strong love/lust bond between woodville and e4 at one time. but, obviously it wasn't strong enough to prevent e4 from having mistresses/concubines.
i'd also consider e4's mother cecily, aunt to the kingmaker. it would seem cec was pretty much her own woman in that era. e4 may have simply let the women rule the home roost.
while woodville's paternal roots were dull, her maternal roots were haughty. she knew the games needed to make power moves. her first marriage wasn't all that pathetic. the de grey's of ruthyn ancestry were well involved in the royal circles.
it is my humble opinion that e4 really didn't care after a few years..what ever kept the harpy quiet was most often in his best interest..which appears to be the quest and conquest of pleasures.
he was king of the castle...and if his "legal" wife wanted to redecorate it with her family and their well bred spouses..so what..it was all the easier to keep an eye on things. e4 simply had an inlaw spy ring who watched out for "their" best interests..which meant keeping e4 happy...
luck, fate and manipulations ensured his siblings were far away or dead..the woodvilles were e4's "family". i think e4 was too often in his cups to have been much of an effective ruler. he simply had to make or veto decisions..per advisors and his fancy. he was king he could do as he wanted, when he wanted and how he wanted. woodville worked this mindset to her family's advantage...with a little help/direction from her mama.
regards
roslyn
artipcat1 <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
Sheri,
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
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i'd also consider e4's mother cecily, aunt to the kingmaker. it would seem cec was pretty much her own woman in that era. e4 may have simply let the women rule the home roost.
while woodville's paternal roots were dull, her maternal roots were haughty. she knew the games needed to make power moves. her first marriage wasn't all that pathetic. the de grey's of ruthyn ancestry were well involved in the royal circles.
it is my humble opinion that e4 really didn't care after a few years..what ever kept the harpy quiet was most often in his best interest..which appears to be the quest and conquest of pleasures.
he was king of the castle...and if his "legal" wife wanted to redecorate it with her family and their well bred spouses..so what..it was all the easier to keep an eye on things. e4 simply had an inlaw spy ring who watched out for "their" best interests..which meant keeping e4 happy...
luck, fate and manipulations ensured his siblings were far away or dead..the woodvilles were e4's "family". i think e4 was too often in his cups to have been much of an effective ruler. he simply had to make or veto decisions..per advisors and his fancy. he was king he could do as he wanted, when he wanted and how he wanted. woodville worked this mindset to her family's advantage...with a little help/direction from her mama.
regards
roslyn
artipcat1 <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
Sheri,
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
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Re: queen anne's influence/ wheel of fortune
2006-04-24 01:14:02
--- In , "artipcat1"
<aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
>
> Sheri,
>
> I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
> again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but
I
> can't think of it.
One writer -- can't recall who -- referred to them as "the omnivorous
Woodvilles."
Katy
<aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
>
> Sheri,
>
> I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
> again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but
I
> can't think of it.
One writer -- can't recall who -- referred to them as "the omnivorous
Woodvilles."
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] queen anne's influence/ wheel of fo
2006-04-25 17:31:25
Angie,
Aargh...Jessica Simpson... don't even get me started on that dingbat! (LOL) Someone should just duct tape her mouth shut. The blonds of the world do not need another peroxided dolt perpetuating the 'dumb blond' myth! Some of us are actually articulate and know the difference between tuna fish and chicken! (LOL)
Seriously though, E4 and Elizabeth W. obviously shared some sort of chemistry, be it love, or lust. Reports of his laid back personality suggest he may have been the sort of man who just said, 'yes dear', let the harping go in one ear, and then out the other, knowing full well placation is the best avenue to peace. Could be too, he kept himself sauced to drown out the nagging. Or, perhaps, her strong personality excited him. My guess it was a mixture of all three, and a bit of love, which kept him granting her wishes. In any event, while he lived, she knew what sort of behavior would get her what she wanted.
Sheri
artipcat1 <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
Sheri,
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
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Aargh...Jessica Simpson... don't even get me started on that dingbat! (LOL) Someone should just duct tape her mouth shut. The blonds of the world do not need another peroxided dolt perpetuating the 'dumb blond' myth! Some of us are actually articulate and know the difference between tuna fish and chicken! (LOL)
Seriously though, E4 and Elizabeth W. obviously shared some sort of chemistry, be it love, or lust. Reports of his laid back personality suggest he may have been the sort of man who just said, 'yes dear', let the harping go in one ear, and then out the other, knowing full well placation is the best avenue to peace. Could be too, he kept himself sauced to drown out the nagging. Or, perhaps, her strong personality excited him. My guess it was a mixture of all three, and a bit of love, which kept him granting her wishes. In any event, while he lived, she knew what sort of behavior would get her what she wanted.
Sheri
artipcat1 <aflanagan7372@...> wrote:
Sheri,
I think the Woodvilles are a story that has been played again and
again in many families. There is a word for relatives like that, but I
can't think of it. Jessica Simpson (the pop star) comes to mind as a
sort of modern version of a family living off the success of one of
its members. The thing is, Edward put up with it, which shows some
real love if you ask me...
Angie
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