I'm Back

Just got back from Ireland. What a time. I'll get my head together and
fill you in concerning the relevant bits. Here are a few quick thoughts.

* I always suspected that heavily scheduled tours were quick and
superficial. Not necessarily true at all. My tour was run by
Insight, and I can't say enough positive about the company. Our
guide was a former teacher, who specialized in history and
architecture. She gave us a great survey of events over the past
five thousand years. I now have a peg upon which to hang a more
detailed study of Irish history.

* Karen and I were the only two Canadians among among a group of
Americans and Australians, but we all shared a common ancestry,
traceable from Irish antecedents. A trip to the port of Cobh
(pronounced 'Cove') brought me face to face with the horrors of
transportation (as the term relates to transporting prisoners),
and and the potato famine, which affected my maternal
grandfather's family very directly. Over a twenty year period
(1845-65), as a direct or indirect result of the famine, the
population dropped from around eight million to less than four
million. It has only risen again to four million in the past few
years. This population decline is likely greater than than
experienced as a result of the Black Death.

* Ireland is booming. An infusion of monies from the EU has spawned
a spurt in housing and infrastructure development.

* The north is quite safe these days, and is looking to build its
tourism business.

* For a relatively small land mass (in terms of North American
standards), Ireland has a tremendous range of natural
landscapes.You _must_ tour the Dingle Peninsula, The Ring of
Kerry, The Burren, The Cliffs of Moher and the Giants Causeway at
least once in your lifetime.

* Australians really have to combine several European tours at one
go, since a trip to Europe is a once-in-a-lifetime event for many
from 'down under'. Lord knows, it's a major investment for most of us.

* Even though we share a common ancestry, we really don't know much
about each other.

* Parochialism is everywhere. John's assessment of regional biases
and distrusts is spot on. Of course, this problem exists universally.

* England is England, Wales is Wales, Scotland is Scotland, and
Ireland is two entities. Great Britain is England, Scotland and
Wales; The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and Northern
Ireland; The British Isles consist of Great Britain and the whole
of Ireland. Our UK friends know this; but I don't think that many
others on the forum do.

* Where various parliaments should be located, and with what powers
they should be vest, is a hot, never-ending debate.

* The issue of Anglo-Irish nobility 'going native' was always a real
problem for English monarchs.

* The English monarchs most involved with Ireland were Henry II,
John, Richard II, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James II and William
III. Although theYorks were involved in shaping and being shaped
by Irish history, they don't seem to sit in the first row of
influence.

* Our guide referred to the 'green men' who are everywhere. These
are not leprechauns as you might think; rather, they are
construction and public works people who specialize in digging
holes for half a day, and then staring into the holes they have
dug for the rest of the day. They wear fluorescent lime green
vests. We have them over here as well, where they might be termed
the 'orange men with yellow fluorescent crosses on their backs'.
They function in pretty much the same way here. Usually one guy
digs a hole while ten guys watch him.

I'll try to get a bit more focused. I did learn a bit about the Ormonds.
For now, suffice it to say that the Butler family (Earls and Dukes of
Ormond) has a finer pedigree on both sides of the Irish Sea than some on
the forum may have imagined. I need to do more study on Butler
genealogy. The Kilkenny Castle (seat of Butler power) guide was not able
to enlighten me on the various family branches. Not surprising that
Edward IV likely got involved with one of them. 'Butler' was an official
title for the Fitzgerald family, but the names became interchangeable.
They came over with William the Conqueror; then some went to Ireland
with Strongbow. I wonder if the fifteenth century earl's 'indiscretion'
concerning his assessment of ElizabethWoodville's pedigree had anything
to do with Edward's alleged pre-contract with Ormond's distant relative,
Eleanor.

In your list of English monarchs you mentioned the Stuarts James II and William III who were of course British monarchs - after England and Scotland united after the death of Elizabeth ! in 1603 and the subsequent accession of James ! of Britain ( James VI of Scotland). You forgot James I - probably one of the most important influences which shaped Ireland happened during his reign as the former O' Neill lands were parcelled up and given away as the Ulster Plantation - but most of your other assertions are correct.
Moira Winder
On Saturday, May 06, 2006, at 06:32AM, Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:

>
><<Original Attached>>

You're right, Moira. Sorry.

I was quite moved by the whole experience, but I have to get my notes
together. Toured Connemarra and visited the O'Neill house. The archives
are fascinating, and it was a real treat to see O'Carolan's harp.

Moira Winder wrote:
> In your list of English monarchs you mentioned the Stuarts James II
> and William III who were of course British monarchs - after England
> and Scotland united after the death of Elizabeth ! in 1603 and the
> subsequent accession of James ! of Britain ( James VI of Scotland).
> You forgot James I - probably one of the most important influences
> which shaped Ireland happened during his reign as the former O' Neill
> lands were parcelled up and given away as the Ulster Plantation - but
> most of your other assertions are correct.
> Moira Winder
> On Saturday, May 06, 2006, at 06:32AM, Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> >
> ><<Original Attached>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> Just got back from Ireland.

Lucky you! Tell us more later, won't you?

What a time. I'll get my head together and
> fill you in concerning the relevant bits. Here are a few quick
thoughts.
> > * Karen and I were the only two Canadians among among a group
of
> Americans and Australians, but we all shared a common
ancestry,
> traceable from Irish antecedents. A trip to the port of Cobh
> (pronounced 'Cove') brought me face to face with the horrors
of
> transportation (as the term relates to transporting
prisoners),
> and and the potato famine, which affected my maternal
> grandfather's family very directly. Over a twenty year period
> (1845-65), as a direct or indirect result of the famine, the
> population dropped from around eight million to less than four
> million. It has only risen again to four million in the past
few
> years. This population decline is likely greater than than
> experienced as a result of the Black Death.
>
> * Ireland is booming. An infusion of monies from the EU has
spawned
> a spurt in housing and infrastructure development.
>
> * The north is quite safe these days, and is looking to build
its
> tourism business.
>
> * For a relatively small land mass (in terms of North American
> standards), Ireland has a tremendous range of natural
> landscapes.You _must_ tour the Dingle Peninsula, The Ring of
> Kerry, The Burren, The Cliffs of Moher and the Giants
Causeway at
> least once in your lifetime.

I'd add to that Ben Bulben and the Donegal Highlands.

>
> * Australians really have to combine several European tours at
one
> go, since a trip to Europe is a once-in-a-lifetime event for
many
> from 'down under'. Lord knows, it's a major investment for
most of us.
>
> * Even though we share a common ancestry, we really don't know
much
> about each other.
>
> * Parochialism is everywhere. John's assessment of regional
biases
> and distrusts is spot on. Of course, this problem exists
universally.
>
> * England is England, Wales is Wales, Scotland is Scotland, and
> Ireland is two entities. Great Britain is England, Scotland
and
> Wales; The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and
Northern
> Ireland; The British Isles consist of Great Britain and the
whole
> of Ireland. Our UK friends know this; but I don't think that
many
> others on the forum do.
>
> * Where various parliaments should be located, and with what
powers
> they should be vest, is a hot, never-ending debate.

Call it parochialism if you like. Some of it is. Some of it is that,
like the secenery, the nature of the dialect, economy and culture
changes markedly within what to you colonials seem like meaninglessly
short distances.

>
> * The issue of Anglo-Irish nobility 'going native' was always a
real
> problem for English monarchs.
>
> * The English monarchs most involved with Ireland were Henry II,
> John, Richard II, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James II and
William
> III. Although theYorks were involved in shaping and being
shaped
> by Irish history, they don't seem to sit in the first row of
> influence.

Ah, but "first row of influence" (ie the kings who get talked about
in overviews of Irish history) really means the first row of
interference. Actually, the House of York was intimately connected
with Ireland when you think about it. They were the heirs of many of
the Norman-Irish families like the Clares, de Burghs and Lacys, and
were even descended from the Gaelic royal house of O'Brien. They had
their own lands in Ireland. Richard Duke of York had been a
successful (so far as was possible) and popular Lord Lieutenant. The
ruling of the Irish parliament of 1460, when he was sheltering there,
that said parliament was independent of England, was seminal (though
reversed by the Tudors) and paved the way for the famous Geraldine
ascendancy, the pretty-well-independent rule of the Garret Mor, the
Great Earl of Kildare and deputy to successive absentee Yorkist Lord
Lieutenants.
Clarence was born in Ireland and regarded by the Anglo-Irish nobility
as one of their own; the Yorkist 'Edward VI' (aka Lambert Simnel) was
crowned in Ireland. Ireland gave shelter & support to both him and
his successor Richard Duke of York aka Perkin Warbeck.
>
> > I'll try to get a bit more focused. I did learn a bit about the
Ormonds.
> For now, suffice it to say that the Butler family (Earls and Dukes
of
> Ormond) has a finer pedigree on both sides of the Irish Sea than
some on
> the forum may have imagined. I need to do more study on Butler
> genealogy. The Kilkenny Castle (seat of Butler power) guide was not
able
> to enlighten me on the various family branches. Not surprising that
> Edward IV likely got involved with one of them. 'Butler' was an
official
> title for the Fitzgerald family, but the names became
interchangeable.
> They came over with William the Conqueror; then some went to
Ireland
> with Strongbow. I wonder if the fifteenth century
earl's 'indiscretion'
> concerning his assessment of ElizabethWoodville's pedigree had
anything
> to do with Edward's alleged pre-contract with Ormond's distant
relative,
> Eleanor.

Ah, now you've got the Butlers and Fitzgeralds mixed up. The Butlers
were Earls of Ormond (from the Irish for East Munster), based at
Kilkenny, right enough. The fourth earl (James, the White Earl) was a
friend of Richard duke of York and godfather to Clarence. however,
his sons had an English mother and the eldest was brought up in
England and is better known as James, Earl of Wiltshire. Diehard
(mainly because he kept running away) Lancastrian. The family
remained thereafter the least Gaelicised of the three Anglo-Irish
earldoms, went along with the Reformation and survived.

The Fitzgeralds did have an alias (though it isn't really - just
another way of saying 'Descendant of Gerald'): Geraldine. There were
two main branches: the earls of Kildare and the earls of Desmond
(Desmond from Irish for South Munster). It was the Earl of DESMOND
who was executed during Edward's reign, supposedly because he had
told Edward he shouldn't have married Elizabeth Woodville. His family
went pretty well completely native after that. After Desmond's death
and Tiptoft's recall, Ireland was ruled by the Earl of Kildare up to
and into Henry VII's reign.

Marie

You're right on all counts, Marie. I'm still in jet lag mode. Everything
is a bit of a jumble, but I'm getting it sorted.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > Just got back from Ireland.
>
> Lucky you! Tell us more later, won't you?
>
> What a time. I'll get my head together and
> > fill you in concerning the relevant bits. Here are a few quick
> thoughts.
> > > * Karen and I were the only two Canadians among among a group
> of
> > Americans and Australians, but we all shared a common
> ancestry,
> > traceable from Irish antecedents. A trip to the port of Cobh
> > (pronounced 'Cove') brought me face to face with the horrors
> of
> > transportation (as the term relates to transporting
> prisoners),
> > and and the potato famine, which affected my maternal
> > grandfather's family very directly. Over a twenty year period
> > (1845-65), as a direct or indirect result of the famine, the
> > population dropped from around eight million to less than four
> > million. It has only risen again to four million in the past
> few
> > years. This population decline is likely greater than than
> > experienced as a result of the Black Death.
> >
> > * Ireland is booming. An infusion of monies from the EU has
> spawned
> > a spurt in housing and infrastructure development.
> >
> > * The north is quite safe these days, and is looking to build
> its
> > tourism business.
> >
> > * For a relatively small land mass (in terms of North American
> > standards), Ireland has a tremendous range of natural
> > landscapes.You _must_ tour the Dingle Peninsula, The Ring of
> > Kerry, The Burren, The Cliffs of Moher and the Giants
> Causeway at
> > least once in your lifetime.
>
> I'd add to that Ben Bulben and the Donegal Highlands.
>
> >
> > * Australians really have to combine several European tours at
> one
> > go, since a trip to Europe is a once-in-a-lifetime event for
> many
> > from 'down under'. Lord knows, it's a major investment for
> most of us.
> >
> > * Even though we share a common ancestry, we really don't know
> much
> > about each other.
> >
> > * Parochialism is everywhere. John's assessment of regional
> biases
> > and distrusts is spot on. Of course, this problem exists
> universally.
> >
> > * England is England, Wales is Wales, Scotland is Scotland, and
> > Ireland is two entities. Great Britain is England, Scotland
> and
> > Wales; The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and
> Northern
> > Ireland; The British Isles consist of Great Britain and the
> whole
> > of Ireland. Our UK friends know this; but I don't think that
> many
> > others on the forum do.
> >
> > * Where various parliaments should be located, and with what
> powers
> > they should be vest, is a hot, never-ending debate.
>
> Call it parochialism if you like. Some of it is. Some of it is that,
> like the secenery, the nature of the dialect, economy and culture
> changes markedly within what to you colonials seem like meaninglessly
> short distances.
>
> >
> > * The issue of Anglo-Irish nobility 'going native' was always a
> real
> > problem for English monarchs.
> >
> > * The English monarchs most involved with Ireland were Henry II,
> > John, Richard II, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James II and
> William
> > III. Although theYorks were involved in shaping and being
> shaped
> > by Irish history, they don't seem to sit in the first row of
> > influence.
>
> Ah, but "first row of influence" (ie the kings who get talked about
> in overviews of Irish history) really means the first row of
> interference. Actually, the House of York was intimately connected
> with Ireland when you think about it. They were the heirs of many of
> the Norman-Irish families like the Clares, de Burghs and Lacys, and
> were even descended from the Gaelic royal house of O'Brien. They had
> their own lands in Ireland. Richard Duke of York had been a
> successful (so far as was possible) and popular Lord Lieutenant. The
> ruling of the Irish parliament of 1460, when he was sheltering there,
> that said parliament was independent of England, was seminal (though
> reversed by the Tudors) and paved the way for the famous Geraldine
> ascendancy, the pretty-well-independent rule of the Garret Mor, the
> Great Earl of Kildare and deputy to successive absentee Yorkist Lord
> Lieutenants.
> Clarence was born in Ireland and regarded by the Anglo-Irish nobility
> as one of their own; the Yorkist 'Edward VI' (aka Lambert Simnel) was
> crowned in Ireland. Ireland gave shelter & support to both him and
> his successor Richard Duke of York aka Perkin Warbeck.
> >
> > > I'll try to get a bit more focused. I did learn a bit about the
> Ormonds.
> > For now, suffice it to say that the Butler family (Earls and Dukes
> of
> > Ormond) has a finer pedigree on both sides of the Irish Sea than
> some on
> > the forum may have imagined. I need to do more study on Butler
> > genealogy. The Kilkenny Castle (seat of Butler power) guide was not
> able
> > to enlighten me on the various family branches. Not surprising that
> > Edward IV likely got involved with one of them. 'Butler' was an
> official
> > title for the Fitzgerald family, but the names became
> interchangeable.
> > They came over with William the Conqueror; then some went to
> Ireland
> > with Strongbow. I wonder if the fifteenth century
> earl's 'indiscretion'
> > concerning his assessment of ElizabethWoodville's pedigree had
> anything
> > to do with Edward's alleged pre-contract with Ormond's distant
> relative,
> > Eleanor.
>
> Ah, now you've got the Butlers and Fitzgeralds mixed up. The Butlers
> were Earls of Ormond (from the Irish for East Munster), based at
> Kilkenny, right enough. The fourth earl (James, the White Earl) was a
> friend of Richard duke of York and godfather to Clarence. however,
> his sons had an English mother and the eldest was brought up in
> England and is better known as James, Earl of Wiltshire. Diehard
> (mainly because he kept running away) Lancastrian. The family
> remained thereafter the least Gaelicised of the three Anglo-Irish
> earldoms, went along with the Reformation and survived.
>
> The Fitzgeralds did have an alias (though it isn't really - just
> another way of saying 'Descendant of Gerald'): Geraldine. There were
> two main branches: the earls of Kildare and the earls of Desmond
> (Desmond from Irish for South Munster). It was the Earl of DESMOND
> who was executed during Edward's reign, supposedly because he had
> told Edward he shouldn't have married Elizabeth Woodville. His family
> went pretty well completely native after that. After Desmond's death
> and Tiptoft's recall, Ireland was ruled by the Earl of Kildare up to
> and into Henry VII's reign.
>
> Marie
>
>
>
>
>
>
> SPONSORED LINKS
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We did go around around Ben Bulben and the Donegal Highlands.
Breathtaking. Rose and I are Canadians, so we're used to really big
mountains. But the Irish mountains appear high within the scale of the
landscape. I can see how they provided advantages and disadvantages
throughout the long course of Irish history. They also have a weathered
grandeur that newer ranges lack.

I'll let you in on a little secret. I inadvertently posted this little
missive on my trip to this forum by mistake. It was meant for another
where they knew all about my trip. You people must have thought I was
nuts. Most of what I said would have seemed totally disembodied. Chalk
it up to jet lag.

Let's see. How can I make this right? Here goes.

* Karen is my wife.
* On the forum I should have posted to, we had been discussing the
issue of parochialism in history; hence, my mentioning it. I
wasn't trying to be unkind. I was simply making the point that we
often get so caught up in our own points of view that we don't see
the validity of other points of view. What I said in my post
sounded rather uppity, but in the right context it wasn't. You are
absolutely right about the influence of language, landscape, et al.
* My comment about the Yorks was simply to temper the view that they
were a major long-term influence in Irish history. I take nothing
away from their connection to Irish nobility. It was certainly
there through Lionel of Clarence and others.
* I realized within several hours of my post that I had screwed up
the families. Still, I would like to know how close was the
relationship between the Irish and English Butlers. I remember
Norman Cantor stating that during the latter middle ages, the
aristrocracy took great pride in tracing their lineages back to
later Roman provincial aristocracy, Charlemagne, or William the
Conqueror. If what he says is true, the Butlers may well have
remained somewhat clannish on both sides of the Irish Sea. Of
course, I do realize that it was Desmond who ran afoul of
Elizabeth Woodville, so I red-facedly drop my conjecture.

Thank you for the lesson on the families. They are most fascinating. I
have a very erudite friend, John Butler, who is a renowned health-care
professional, avocational historian and published poet. He'd make a fine
earl of Ormond if they're accepting Canucks.

Again thanks to you and to Moira for being so kind to me. I jumped into
the fray too quickly. As Popeye once said, "I'm so embarrassked!"

Bill Barber wrote:
> You're right on all counts, Marie. I'm still in jet lag mode. Everything
> is a bit of a jumble, but I'm getting it sorted.
>
> mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> > --- In , Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Just got back from Ireland.
> >
> > Lucky you! Tell us more later, won't you?
> >
> > What a time. I'll get my head together and
> > > fill you in concerning the relevant bits. Here are a few quick
> > thoughts.
> > > > * Karen and I were the only two Canadians among among a group
> > of
> > > Americans and Australians, but we all shared a common
> > ancestry,
> > > traceable from Irish antecedents. A trip to the port of Cobh
> > > (pronounced 'Cove') brought me face to face with the horrors
> > of
> > > transportation (as the term relates to transporting
> > prisoners),
> > > and and the potato famine, which affected my maternal
> > > grandfather's family very directly. Over a twenty year period
> > > (1845-65), as a direct or indirect result of the famine, the
> > > population dropped from around eight million to less than four
> > > million. It has only risen again to four million in the past
> > few
> > > years. This population decline is likely greater than than
> > > experienced as a result of the Black Death.
> > >
> > > * Ireland is booming. An infusion of monies from the EU has
> > spawned
> > > a spurt in housing and infrastructure development.
> > >
> > > * The north is quite safe these days, and is looking to build
> > its
> > > tourism business.
> > >
> > > * For a relatively small land mass (in terms of North American
> > > standards), Ireland has a tremendous range of natural
> > > landscapes.You _must_ tour the Dingle Peninsula, The Ring of
> > > Kerry, The Burren, The Cliffs of Moher and the Giants
> > Causeway at
> > > least once in your lifetime.
> >
> > I'd add to that Ben Bulben and the Donegal Highlands.
> >
> > >
> > > * Australians really have to combine several European tours at
> > one
> > > go, since a trip to Europe is a once-in-a-lifetime event for
> > many
> > > from 'down under'. Lord knows, it's a major investment for
> > most of us.
> > >
> > > * Even though we share a common ancestry, we really don't know
> > much
> > > about each other.
> > >
> > > * Parochialism is everywhere. John's assessment of regional
> > biases
> > > and distrusts is spot on. Of course, this problem exists
> > universally.
> > >
> > > * England is England, Wales is Wales, Scotland is Scotland, and
> > > Ireland is two entities. Great Britain is England, Scotland
> > and
> > > Wales; The United Kingdom is England, Scotland, Wales and
> > Northern
> > > Ireland; The British Isles consist of Great Britain and the
> > whole
> > > of Ireland. Our UK friends know this; but I don't think that
> > many
> > > others on the forum do.
> > >
> > > * Where various parliaments should be located, and with what
> > powers
> > > they should be vest, is a hot, never-ending debate.
> >
> > Call it parochialism if you like. Some of it is. Some of it is that,
> > like the secenery, the nature of the dialect, economy and culture
> > changes markedly within what to you colonials seem like meaninglessly
> > short distances.
> >
> > >
> > > * The issue of Anglo-Irish nobility 'going native' was always a
> > real
> > > problem for English monarchs.
> > >
> > > * The English monarchs most involved with Ireland were Henry II,
> > > John, Richard II, Henry VIII, Elizabeth I, James II and
> > William
> > > III. Although theYorks were involved in shaping and being
> > shaped
> > > by Irish history, they don't seem to sit in the first row of
> > > influence.
> >
> > Ah, but "first row of influence" (ie the kings who get talked about
> > in overviews of Irish history) really means the first row of
> > interference. Actually, the House of York was intimately connected
> > with Ireland when you think about it. They were the heirs of many of
> > the Norman-Irish families like the Clares, de Burghs and Lacys, and
> > were even descended from the Gaelic royal house of O'Brien. They had
> > their own lands in Ireland. Richard Duke of York had been a
> > successful (so far as was possible) and popular Lord Lieutenant. The
> > ruling of the Irish parliament of 1460, when he was sheltering there,
> > that said parliament was independent of England, was seminal (though
> > reversed by the Tudors) and paved the way for the famous Geraldine
> > ascendancy, the pretty-well-independent rule of the Garret Mor, the
> > Great Earl of Kildare and deputy to successive absentee Yorkist Lord
> > Lieutenants.
> > Clarence was born in Ireland and regarded by the Anglo-Irish nobility
> > as one of their own; the Yorkist 'Edward VI' (aka Lambert Simnel) was
> > crowned in Ireland. Ireland gave shelter & support to both him and
> > his successor Richard Duke of York aka Perkin Warbeck.
> > >
> > > > I'll try to get a bit more focused. I did learn a bit about the
> > Ormonds.
> > > For now, suffice it to say that the Butler family (Earls and Dukes
> > of
> > > Ormond) has a finer pedigree on both sides of the Irish Sea than
> > some on
> > > the forum may have imagined. I need to do more study on Butler
> > > genealogy. The Kilkenny Castle (seat of Butler power) guide was not
> > able
> > > to enlighten me on the various family branches. Not surprising that
> > > Edward IV likely got involved with one of them. 'Butler' was an
> > official
> > > title for the Fitzgerald family, but the names became
> > interchangeable.
> > > They came over with William the Conqueror; then some went to
> > Ireland
> > > with Strongbow. I wonder if the fifteenth century
> > earl's 'indiscretion'
> > > concerning his assessment of ElizabethWoodville's pedigree had
> > anything
> > > to do with Edward's alleged pre-contract with Ormond's distant
> > relative,
> > > Eleanor.
> >
> > Ah, now you've got the Butlers and Fitzgeralds mixed up. The Butlers
> > were Earls of Ormond (from the Irish for East Munster), based at
> > Kilkenny, right enough. The fourth earl (James, the White Earl) was a
> > friend of Richard duke of York and godfather to Clarence. however,
> > his sons had an English mother and the eldest was brought up in
> > England and is better known as James, Earl of Wiltshire. Diehard
> > (mainly because he kept running away) Lancastrian. The family
> > remained thereafter the least Gaelicised of the three Anglo-Irish
> > earldoms, went along with the Reformation and survived.
> >
> > The Fitzgeralds did have an alias (though it isn't really - just
> > another way of saying 'Descendant of Gerald'): Geraldine. There were
> > two main branches: the earls of Kildare and the earls of Desmond
> > (Desmond from Irish for South Munster). It was the Earl of DESMOND
> > who was executed during Edward's reign, supposedly because he had
> > told Edward he shouldn't have married Elizabeth Woodville. His family
> > went pretty well completely native after that. After Desmond's death
> > and Tiptoft's recall, Ireland was ruled by the Earl of Kildare up to
> > and into Henry VII's reign.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > SPONSORED LINKS
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> >
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>
> > United kingdom hotel
> >
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>
> >
> >
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