Old English/Middle English??

If we were to travel back in time and listen in on a conversation held, lets say, during the
lifetime of Richard - lets also say in southern England - how much would we be able to
understand of what was being said? Quite a bit or very little? Had the language changed
much since Chaucers time (died 1400) because certainly the Canterbury Tales are difficult
to follow but of course some of the words are instantly recognised i.e. glymsyng -
glimpse, leve - permission, wyf - wife and one of my favourites 'alderbest' -meaning best
of all. Thats a phrase we are still using today isnt it usually when writing a letter 'all the
best' - lovely.
Eileen

--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> If we were to travel back in time and listen in on a conversation
held, lets say, during the
> lifetime of Richard - lets also say in southern England - how much
would we be able to
> understand of what was being said? Quite a bit or very little?
Had the language changed
> much since Chaucers time (died 1400)


I can figure out much or most of material written in the Middle
Ages, especially with a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary at my
elbow. That is, if either the handwiting is clear (the cursive
reproduced in The Lisle Letters ranges from perfectly readable to
some that might as well be written in Farsi) or it has been
transcribed into the typeface of the book text.

(The stumbling block is more likely to be the meaning of the
words...it's risky to assume that word in common use today meant the
same thing 500 years ago. In some materal it is prudent to consult
the OED over practically every noun and verb. And the real trap can
be phrases, expressions, figures of speech, euphemisms, references
to then-current events which everyone understood at the time, and so
on. As I've harped on before, it is sometimes one thing to see what
someone said, but quite another to know what they meant.

But the question was how much we in the present could understand the
speech of someone in 15th century England. Speaking for myself, I
think I'd have a difficult time. I don't have much of an ear for
accents. I think I'd have to pretend to be deaf and find a literate
person to follow me around and write down what is being said.

Katy

Sorry I've been away so long. My Mom is in hospital, and the ordeal has
been time consuming.

Anyway, my claim to fame is having studied Anglo Saxon in university. It
sounds like German spoken with some kind of lowland Scots dialect. I
could once recite the Anglo Saxon version of Lord's Prayer and part of
the parable about the man who built his house on sand while the other
man built his house on rock. I got pretty good marks, but I can tell you
that being able to speak Anglo Saxon was not an useful aid for picking
up women in bars.

oregonkaty wrote:
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "eileen"
> <ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
> >
> > If we were to travel back in time and listen in on a conversation
> held, lets say, during the
> > lifetime of Richard - lets also say in southern England - how much
> would we be able to
> > understand of what was being said? Quite a bit or very little?
> Had the language changed
> > much since Chaucers time (died 1400)
>
> I can figure out much or most of material written in the Middle
> Ages, especially with a copy of the Oxford English Dictionary at my
> elbow. That is, if either the handwiting is clear (the cursive
> reproduced in The Lisle Letters ranges from perfectly readable to
> some that might as well be written in Farsi) or it has been
> transcribed into the typeface of the book text.
>
> (The stumbling block is more likely to be the meaning of the
> words...it's risky to assume that word in common use today meant the
> same thing 500 years ago. In some materal it is prudent to consult
> the OED over practically every noun and verb. And the real trap can
> be phrases, expressions, figures of speech, euphemisms, references
> to then-current events which everyone understood at the time, and so
> on. As I've harped on before, it is sometimes one thing to see what
> someone said, but quite another to know what they meant.
>
> But the question was how much we in the present could understand the
> speech of someone in 15th century England. Speaking for myself, I
> think I'd have a difficult time. I don't have much of an ear for
> accents. I think I'd have to pretend to be deaf and find a literate
> person to follow me around and write down what is being said.
>
> Katy
>
>

Old English bears very little relation to modern English. Middle
English however (similar to the language Chaucer used) is more
recognisable, as you said. Reading documents written in this time is
relatively easy with a little paleography training, though the
handwriting of this period is more difficult to decipher. Spellings
differ greatly, as there was no standard "Queen's (or King's)
English, but the brain can decipher it easily with practice.

In terms of spoken English, it is difficult to say. Dialects were
very broad among the common people as many of them didn't travel
beyond their town boundary within their lifetime (if you listen to
locals for instance in Cornwall, Yorkshire or Tyne and Wear today,
among themselves they can be difficult to understand, they often
change their diction when talking to someone from outside their own
area). I would imagine the gentry were easier to understand as they
had means to travel around and would be speaking to people from
different parts of the country.

Language in the fifteenth century had changed litte from Chaucer's
time. But as there was no standard language, individual dialects
would also have their own peculiar words that would be unrecognisable
in other parts of the country, for instance in the north of England
some viking words would survive, Cornwall had (and still has in some
areas) a totally different language (I think, though don't quote me
on this, it is celtic or gallic in origin). I believe this could have
been the case in other pockets across England as before the Norman
Invasion England was divided into different Kingdoms.

Language had become more standard across the country since the time
of William the Conqueror (who could also have been called William the
Administrator), although he and most of his men spoke French.
Parliamentary documents in the fifteenth century were sometimes still
written in French (a hangover from this Norman invasion), though they
were increasingly being written in English. Ecclesiastical documents
were written in Latin.

Hope this answers your question!

Lotti



--- In , "eileen"
<ebatesparrot@...> wrote:
>
> If we were to travel back in time and listen in on a conversation
held, lets say, during the
> lifetime of Richard - lets also say in southern England - how much
would we be able to
> understand of what was being said? Quite a bit or very little? Had
the language changed
> much since Chaucers time (died 1400) because certainly the
Canterbury Tales are difficult
> to follow but of course some of the words are instantly recognised
i.e. glymsyng -
> glimpse, leve - permission, wyf - wife and one of my
favourites 'alderbest' -meaning best
> of all. Thats a phrase we are still using today isnt it usually
when writing a letter 'all the
> best' - lovely.
> Eileen
>

I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton (Scots and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably from them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow Breton without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much the same with Cornish.

Ann

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.

In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'. Does
anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?

Many thanks.

A LYON wrote:
>
> I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton (Scots
> and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably from
> them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow Breton
> without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much the
> same with Cornish.
>
> Ann
>
> New Message Search
> Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> improved message search.
>
>
> Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
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> Recent Activity
>
> 1
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> 1
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> United kingdom flower delivery
> United kingdom phone
> United kingdom phone card
> United kingdom travel
>
> .
>
>
>
>

--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
Does
> anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
>
> Many thanks.

It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.

By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.

The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
true native Cornish speaker sounded like.

Marie

>
> A LYON wrote:
> >
> > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
(Scots
> > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
from
> > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
Breton
> > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
the
> > same with Cornish.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > New Message Search
> > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > improved message search.
> >
> >
> > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> >
> > Recent Activity
> >
> > 1
> > New Members
> >
> > 1
> > New Files
> >
> > Visit Your Group
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> > Richard iii
> > United kingdom
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > United kingdom phone
> > United kingdom phone card
> > United kingdom travel
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Thanks, Marie:

During my days as a curator, I did much research on a local cooper by
the name of John Trevorrow. He was an interesting man who worked for
Gooderham and Worts, a major Canadian distiller and general store
operator during the nineteenth century. Trevorrow was so important that
he was able to build housing for his workers, a task that was generally
undertaken only by affluent millers.

He was one of the many individuals whose prospects were not particularly
promising in Britain, but whose status improved greatly after emigration
to Canada.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
> Does
> > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> >
> > Many thanks.
>
> It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
>
> By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
> Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
> Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
> four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.
>
> The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
> revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
> true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > A LYON wrote:
> > >
> > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
> (Scots
> > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
> from
> > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
> Breton
> > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
> the
> > > same with Cornish.
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > > New Message Search
> > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > > improved message search.
> > >
> > >
> > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > >
> > > Recent Activity
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Members
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Files
> > >
> > > Visit Your Group
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > >
> > > Richard iii
> > > United kingdom
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > United kingdom phone
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > United kingdom travel
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got my Ps and Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that Welsh, Breton and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while the two forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their respective speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.

Ann

mariewalsh2003 <marie@...> wrote:
--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
Does
> anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
>
> Many thanks.

It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.

By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.

The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
true native Cornish speaker sounded like.

Marie

>
> A LYON wrote:
> >
> > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
(Scots
> > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
from
> > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
Breton
> > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
the
> > same with Cornish.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > New Message Search
> > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > improved message search.
> >
> >
> > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> >
> > Recent Activity
> >
> > 1
> > New Members
> >
> > 1
> > New Files
> >
> > Visit Your Group
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> > Richard iii
> > United kingdom
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > United kingdom phone
> > United kingdom phone card
> > United kingdom travel
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>

Similarly, when I studied Anglo Saxon at university, I was introduced to
'The Battle of Maldon'. In this poem the Saxon and Norse leaders
converse fairly easily with each other. My professor pointed out that
these back-and-forth discussions would likely not require interepreters,
since the two languages were quite similar.

A LYON wrote:
>
> I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton (Scots
> and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably from
> them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow Breton
> without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much the
> same with Cornish.
>
> Ann
>
> New Message Search
> Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> improved message search.
>
>
> Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
>
> Recent Activity
>
> 1
> New Members
>
> 1
> New Files
>
> Visit Your Group
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
> Richard iii
> United kingdom
> United kingdom flower delivery
> United kingdom phone
> United kingdom phone card
> United kingdom travel
>
> .
>
>
>
>

Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding one's p's
and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between Goidelic
and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of Occam's
Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the printing
trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting type.

I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.

A LYON wrote:
>
> I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got my Ps and
> Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that Welsh, Breton
> and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while the two
> forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their respective
> speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
>
> Ann
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
> Does
> > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> >
> > Many thanks.
>
> It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
>
> By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
> Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
> Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
> four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.
>
> The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
> revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
> true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > A LYON wrote:
> > >
> > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
> (Scots
> > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
> from
> > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
> Breton
> > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
> the
> > > same with Cornish.
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > > New Message Search
> > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > > improved message search.
> > >
> > >
> > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > >
> > > Recent Activity
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Members
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Files
> > >
> > > Visit Your Group
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > >
> > > Richard iii
> > > United kingdom
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > United kingdom phone
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > United kingdom travel
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in mind your pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
roslyn
Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding one's p's
and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between Goidelic
and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of Occam's
Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the printing
trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting type.

I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.

A LYON wrote:
>
> I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got my Ps and
> Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that Welsh, Breton
> and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while the two
> forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their respective
> speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
>
> Ann
>
> mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> <bbarber@...> wrote:
> >
> > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
> Does
> > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> >
> > Many thanks.
>
> It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
>
> By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
> Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
> Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
> four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.
>
> The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
> revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
> true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
>
> Marie
>
> >
> > A LYON wrote:
> > >
> > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
> (Scots
> > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
> from
> > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
> Breton
> > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
> the
> > > same with Cornish.
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > > New Message Search
> > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > > improved message search.
> > >
> > >
> > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > >
> > > Recent Activity
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Members
> > >
> > > 1
> > > New Files
> > >
> > > Visit Your Group
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > >
> > > Richard iii
> > > United kingdom
> > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > United kingdom phone
> > > United kingdom phone card
> > > United kingdom travel
> > >
> > > .
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Come to think of it, I'd heard that one too. Who knows where this stuff
comes from?

fayre rose wrote:
>
> i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in mind your
> pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
> roslyn
> Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding one's p's
> and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between Goidelic
> and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of Occam's
> Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the printing
> trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting type.
>
> I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.
>
> A LYON wrote:
> >
> > I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got my Ps and
> > Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that Welsh, Breton
> > and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while the two
> > forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their respective
> > speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>
> > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
> > Does
> > > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> > >
> > > Many thanks.
> >
> > It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> > Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
> >
> > By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
> > Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
> > Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
> > four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.
> >
> > The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
> > revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
> > true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > >
> > > A LYON wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
> > (Scots
> > > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
> > from
> > > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
> > Breton
> > > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
> > the
> > > > same with Cornish.
> > > >
> > > > Ann
> > > >
> > > > New Message Search
> > > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > > > improved message search.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > > >
> > > > Recent Activity
> > > >
> > > > 1
> > > > New Members
> > > >
> > > > 1
> > > > New Files
> > > >
> > > > Visit Your Group
> > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > >
> > > > Richard iii
> > > > United kingdom
> > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > United kingdom phone
> > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > United kingdom travel
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Another explanation for "mind your P's and Q's" is said to be Mind your Please and Thank-you's ..Unfortunately the saying seems to be dying out.
Mark.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle English??


Come to think of it, I'd heard that one too. Who knows where this stuff
comes from?

fayre rose wrote:
>
> i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in mind your
> pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
> roslyn
> Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding one's p's
> and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between Goidelic
> and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of Occam's
> Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the printing
> trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting type.
>
> I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.
>
> A LYON wrote:
> >
> > I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got my Ps and
> > Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that Welsh, Breton
> > and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while the two
> > forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their respective
> > speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>
> > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version of 'Tre'.
> > Does
> > > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> > >
> > > Many thanks.
> >
> > It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> > Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
> >
> > By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic, and
> > Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for example, the
> > Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'. Welsh for
> > four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair & cuig.
> >
> > The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century. There is a
> > revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly what a
> > true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
> >
> > Marie
> >
> > >
> > > A LYON wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton
> > (Scots
> > > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably
> > from
> > > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow
> > Breton
> > > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much
> > the
> > > > same with Cornish.
> > > >
> > > > Ann
> > > >
> > > > New Message Search
> > > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > > > improved message search.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
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> > >
> > >
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> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

Yet another explanation refers to feet (vos pieds)and long periwigs
(vos queues)

--- In , "Mark Orridge"
<l.orridge2@...> wrote:
>
> Another explanation for "mind your P's and Q's" is said to be Mind
your Please and Thank-you's ..Unfortunately the saying seems to be
dying out.
> Mark.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle
English??
>
>
> Come to think of it, I'd heard that one too. Who knows where this
stuff
> comes from?
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in mind
your
> > pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
> > roslyn
> > Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> > Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding
one's p's
> > and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between
Goidelic
> > and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of
Occam's
> > Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the
printing
> > trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting
type.
> >
> > I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.
> >
> > A LYON wrote:
> > >
> > > I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got
my Ps and
> > > Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that
Welsh, Breton
> > > and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while
the two
> > > forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their
respective
> > > speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>
> > > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version
of 'Tre'.
> > > Does
> > > > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks.
> > >
> > > It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> > > Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
> > >
> > > By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic,
and
> > > Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for
example, the
> > > Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'.
Welsh for
> > > four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair &
cuig.
> > >
> > > The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century.
There is a
> > > revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly
what a
> > > true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
> > >
> > > Marie
> > >
> > > >
> > > > A LYON wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language,
technically a
> > > > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and
Breton
> > > (Scots
> > > > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ
considerably
> > > from
> > > > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can
follow
> > > Breton
> > > > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is
much
> > > the
> > > > > same with Cornish.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ann
> > > > >
> > > > > New Message Search
> > > > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try
out the
> > > > > improved message search.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > > > >
> > > > > Recent Activity
> > > > >
> > > > > 1
> > > > > New Members
> > > > >
> > > > > 1
> > > > > New Files
> > > > >
> > > > > Visit Your Group
> > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > >
> > > > > Richard iii
> > > > > United kingdom
> > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > United kingdom phone
> > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > United kingdom travel
> > > > >
> > > > > .
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Bill,
I find it fascinating how this relationship between Old Norse and Old English left the language so much richer. ie, Those words that are almost the same but have subtle shades of meaning like Old English (OE) Craft and Old Norse (ON) Skill, OE Ditch,ON Dyke,OE Shirt,ON Skirt OE sick ON ill (think thats the right way round!) and many others including words like meeting moot-thing OE Moot ON thing (both mean meeting)...Sledgehammer OE sledge ON Hammer (both mean Hammer) ...Fascinating subject when you get your teeth into it!
Mark.
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle English??


Similarly, when I studied Anglo Saxon at university, I was introduced to
'The Battle of Maldon'. In this poem the Saxon and Norse leaders
converse fairly easily with each other. My professor pointed out that
these back-and-forth discussions would likely not require interepreters,
since the two languages were quite similar.

A LYON wrote:
>
> I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton (Scots
> and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably from
> them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow Breton
> without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much the
> same with Cornish.
>
> Ann
>
> New Message Search
> Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> improved message search.
>
>
> Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
>
> Recent Activity
>
> 1
> New Members
>
> 1
> New Files
>
> Visit Your Group
> SPONSORED LINKS
>
> Richard iii
> United kingdom
> United kingdom flower delivery
> United kingdom phone
> United kingdom phone card
> United kingdom travel
>
> .
>
>
>
>

Agree absolutely.

I wonder if the word 'sledgehammer' was the first redundancy in the
language. Hmmm.

Mark Orridge wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> I find it fascinating how this relationship between Old Norse and Old
> English left the language so much richer. ie, Those words that are
> almost the same but have subtle shades of meaning like Old English
> (OE) Craft and Old Norse (ON) Skill, OE Ditch,ON Dyke,OE Shirt,ON
> Skirt OE sick ON ill (think thats the right way round!) and many
> others including words like meeting moot-thing OE Moot ON thing (both
> mean meeting)...Sledgehammer OE sledge ON Hammer (both mean Hammer)
> ...Fascinating subject when you get your teeth into it!
> Mark.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, July 21, 2006 6:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle English??
>
> Similarly, when I studied Anglo Saxon at university, I was introduced to
> 'The Battle of Maldon'. In this poem the Saxon and Norse leaders
> converse fairly easily with each other. My professor pointed out that
> these back-and-forth discussions would likely not require interepreters,
> since the two languages were quite similar.
>
> A LYON wrote:
> >
> > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language, technically a
> > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and Breton (Scots
> > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ considerably from
> > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can follow Breton
> > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is much the
> > same with Cornish.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > New Message Search
> > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try out the
> > improved message search.
> >
> >
> > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> >
> > Recent Activity
> >
> > 1
> > New Members
> >
> > 1
> > New Files
> >
> > Visit Your Group
> > SPONSORED LINKS
> >
> > Richard iii
> > United kingdom
> > United kingdom flower delivery
> > United kingdom phone
> > United kingdom phone card
> > United kingdom travel
> >
> > .
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>

And I was so hoping the expression _would_ have to do with 'p' and 'q'
Celts. Was it too much to hope for?

Stephen Lark wrote:
>
> Yet another explanation refers to feet (vos pieds)and long periwigs
> (vos queues)
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mark Orridge"
> <l.orridge2@...> wrote:
> >
> > Another explanation for "mind your P's and Q's" is said to be Mind
> your Please and Thank-you's ..Unfortunately the saying seems to be
> dying out.
> > Mark.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Bill Barber
> > To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:00 AM
> > Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle
> English??
> >
> >
> > Come to think of it, I'd heard that one too. Who knows where this
> stuff
> > comes from?
> >
> > fayre rose wrote:
> > >
> > > i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in mind
> your
> > > pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
> > > roslyn
> > > Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> > > Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding
> one's p's
> > > and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between
> Goidelic
> > > and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of
> Occam's
> > > Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the
> printing
> > > trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting
> type.
> > >
> > > I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.
> > >
> > > A LYON wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got
> my Ps and
> > > > Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that
> Welsh, Breton
> > > > and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while
> the two
> > > > forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their
> respective
> > > > speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
> > > >
> > > > Ann
> > > >
> > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@...
> > > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>
> > > > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> > > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version
> of 'Tre'.
> > > > Does
> > > > > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> > > > >
> > > > > Many thanks.
> > > >
> > > > It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic Celtic.
> > > > Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
> > > >
> > > > By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic,
> and
> > > > Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for
> example, the
> > > > Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'.
> Welsh for
> > > > four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair &
> cuig.
> > > >
> > > > The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century.
> There is a
> > > > revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly
> what a
> > > > true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
> > > >
> > > > Marie
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > A LYON wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language,
> technically a
> > > > > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and
> Breton
> > > > (Scots
> > > > > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ
> considerably
> > > > from
> > > > > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can
> follow
> > > > Breton
> > > > > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position is
> much
> > > > the
> > > > > > same with Cornish.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ann
> > > > > >
> > > > > > New Message Search
> > > > > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to try
> out the
> > > > > > improved message search.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Recent Activity
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > New Members
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1
> > > > > > New Files
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Visit Your Group
> > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Richard iii
> > > > > > United kingdom
> > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > United kingdom phone
> > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > United kingdom travel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > .
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

As to linguistic redundancies
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I did read somewhere that Pendle Hill in Lancashire is actually 'the hill hill hill'. Pen is hill in Welsh, from Brythonic Celtic; -dle involves an OE word for hill, then the modern English form got tagged on as well.

Ann
.

I heard that P's and Q's was from the printing industry, as in making
sure you get the p and q printing block the right way round, so you
don't end up with pueen or qeoqle, when you wanted to say queen and
people.


--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> And I was so hoping the expression _would_ have to do with 'p'
and 'q'
> Celts. Was it too much to hope for?
>
> Stephen Lark wrote:
> >
> > Yet another explanation refers to feet (vos pieds)and long
periwigs
> > (vos queues)
> >
> > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mark Orridge"
> > <l.orridge2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Another explanation for "mind your P's and Q's" is said to be
Mind
> > your Please and Thank-you's ..Unfortunately the saying seems to be
> > dying out.
> > > Mark.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Bill Barber
> > > To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2006 5:00 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Re: Old English/Middle
> > English??
> > >
> > >
> > > Come to think of it, I'd heard that one too. Who knows where
this
> > stuff
> > > comes from?
> > >
> > > fayre rose wrote:
> > > >
> > > > i was told minding your p's n q's came from the pub, as in
mind
> > your
> > > > pints and quarts, gentlemen, please.
> > > > roslyn
> > > > Bill Barber <bbarber@ <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> > > > Speaking of which, I remember someone telling me that 'minding
> > one's p's
> > > > and q's related to debates over linguistic differences between
> > Goidelic
> > > > and Brythonic Celtic speakers; however, since I'm a big fan of
> > Occam's
> > > > Rasor, I am inclined to think the expression came from the
> > printing
> > > > trade in which it was easy to confuse p's and q's when setting
> > type.
> > > >
> > > > I'm serious. Someone actually told me this.
> > > >
> > > > A LYON wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I had a nasty suspicion after I sent my message that I'd got
> > my Ps and
> > > > > Qs the wrong way round! Basic point still applies, that
> > Welsh, Breton
> > > > > and Cornish on the one hand are mutually intelligible, while
> > the two
> > > > > forms of Gaelic and Manx are mutually intelligible to their
> > respective
> > > > > speakers, but not to speakers of the other three.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ann
> > > > >
> > > > > mariewalsh2003 <marie@
> > > > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>
> > > > > <mailto:marie%40remote.tenos.co.uk>> wrote:
> > > > > --- In
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill
Barber
> > > > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > In the southwest, many surnames begin with some version
> > of 'Tre'.
> > > > > Does
> > > > > > anyone know what this 'prefix' signifies?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > > It means town or village, and comes from the Brythonic
Celtic.
> > > > > Still 'tre' or 'tref' in modern Welsh.
> > > > >
> > > > > By the by, Brythonic (welsh, Breton, Cornish) are P-Celtic,
> > and
> > > > > Gaelic is Q-Celtic. The q's long ago became c's. So, for
> > example, the
> > > > > Welsh word for head is 'pen', whilst the Irish is 'ceann'.
> > Welsh for
> > > > > four & five are pedwar & pump, whilst Irish are ceathair &
> > cuig.
> > > > >
> > > > > The last native Cornish speaker died in the 18th century.
> > There is a
> > > > > revival movement afoot, but no one any longer knows exactly
> > what a
> > > > > true native Cornish speaker sounded like.
> > > > >
> > > > > Marie
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A LYON wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I can confirm that Cornish is a Celtic language,
> > technically a
> > > > > > > Brythonic or Q-Celtic tongue, and cognate with Welsh and
> > Breton
> > > > > (Scots
> > > > > > > and Irish Gaelic and Manx are P-Celtic and differ
> > considerably
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > them). My Welsh-speaking friends tell me that they can
> > follow
> > > > > Breton
> > > > > > > without too much difficulty, so I imagine the position
is
> > much
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > same with Cornish.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ann
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > New Message Search
> > > > > > > Find the message you want faster. Visit your group to
try
> > out the
> > > > > > > improved message search.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Share feedback on the new changes to Groups
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Recent Activity
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > New Members
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1
> > > > > > > New Files
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Visit Your Group
> > > > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Richard iii
> > > > > > > United kingdom
> > > > > > > United kingdom flower delivery
> > > > > > > United kingdom phone
> > > > > > > United kingdom phone card
> > > > > > > United kingdom travel
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > .
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>