Genetic studies
Genetic studies
2006-09-06 23:11:56
Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
thirteen women.
A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
distant past.
Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
confuses.
Robert Fripp
r_fripp@...
established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
thirteen women.
A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
distant past.
Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
confuses.
Robert Fripp
r_fripp@...
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-06 23:53:15
The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of material.
The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
that they will be known to God.
I thought the old boy was omniscient.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
that they will be known to God.
I thought the old boy was omniscient.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 00:02:16
Fascinating stuff.
On one of the Richard III forums, someone (perhaps Paul) noted that the
date of posting was the anniversary of the Battle of Towton, and that we
should pause to remember the fallen. This reminder made me think of the
articles on genetics I had recently read. It struck me that each of is
likely related, in some way, to every one on both sides who fought in
that battle. Sobering thought.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
On one of the Richard III forums, someone (perhaps Paul) noted that the
date of posting was the anniversary of the Battle of Towton, and that we
should pause to remember the fallen. This reminder made me think of the
articles on genetics I had recently read. It struck me that each of is
likely related, in some way, to every one on both sides who fought in
that battle. Sobering thought.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 02:37:36
My daughter lives in Salt Lake City so we studied Mormonism (They called it Latter Day Saints). Actually the ancestors can't be "saved" unless the Mormon descendents are baptized on their behalf. So the identity is so that the people know who to be baptized for.
And if you really study it, you will discover that the "old boy" is Adam from the Hebrew scriptures. They think he was the "god" over this planet and that you become a god if you are a mormon male. There are many gods in their religion.
AmyB
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of material.
The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
that they will be known to God.
I thought the old boy was omniscient.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
And if you really study it, you will discover that the "old boy" is Adam from the Hebrew scriptures. They think he was the "god" over this planet and that you become a god if you are a mormon male. There are many gods in their religion.
AmyB
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of material.
The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
that they will be known to God.
I thought the old boy was omniscient.
Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> thirteen women.
>
> A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> distant past.
>
> Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> confuses.
>
> Robert Fripp
> r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 06:06:16
Many thanks.
My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
the completeness of its genealogical records.
Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> My daughter lives in Salt Lake City so we studied Mormonism (They
> called it Latter Day Saints). Actually the ancestors can't be "saved"
> unless the Mormon descendents are baptized on their behalf. So the
> identity is so that the people know who to be baptized for.
> And if you really study it, you will discover that the "old boy" is
> Adam from the Hebrew scriptures. They think he was the "god" over this
> planet and that you become a god if you are a mormon male. There are
> many gods in their religion.
> AmyB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of material.
> The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
> are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
> that they will be known to God.
>
> I thought the old boy was omniscient.
>
> Robert Fripp wrote:
> >
> > Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> > established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> > ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> > Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> > that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> > have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> > a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> > the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> > thirteen women.
> >
> > A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> > in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> > that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> > individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> > middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> > grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> > some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> > pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> > begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> > say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> > heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> > vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> > convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> > further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> > that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> > distant past.
> >
> > Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> > confuses.
> >
> > Robert Fripp
> > r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
> <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
the completeness of its genealogical records.
Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> My daughter lives in Salt Lake City so we studied Mormonism (They
> called it Latter Day Saints). Actually the ancestors can't be "saved"
> unless the Mormon descendents are baptized on their behalf. So the
> identity is so that the people know who to be baptized for.
> And if you really study it, you will discover that the "old boy" is
> Adam from the Hebrew scriptures. They think he was the "god" over this
> planet and that you become a god if you are a mormon male. There are
> many gods in their religion.
> AmyB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 6:34 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of material.
> The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's ancestors
> are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be identified so
> that they will be known to God.
>
> I thought the old boy was omniscient.
>
> Robert Fripp wrote:
> >
> > Re: genetic studies. For theological reasons the Mormon Church has
> > established itself as an expert on this. Perhaps ten or fifteen years
> > ago I read a fascinating story in The New Yorker magazine about the
> > Church's researches. One of the few statistics that I do recall is
> > that one quarter of the people born in Britain prior to the year 1950
> > have at least one line of descent from a king (was it Edward I ?) or
> > a member of the royal family who was alive in the first decades of
> > the 1200s. A century earlier, Henry I (Beauclerc) sired offspring by
> > thirteen women.
> >
> > A second line of approach that the Church took was to classify humans
> > in degrees of relatedness. Using that approach, the Church calculated
> > that all living humans are 50th cousins or less. If you take any
> > individual and work all lines of descent back to somewhere in the
> > middle ages you get an inverted funnel -- two parents, four
> > grandparents, eight greats, sixteen great-greats etc. Curiously, at
> > some point many generations ago (which I again forget) the inverted
> > pyramid formed by this sequence stops moving outwards and the lines
> > begin to converge, so that if you map a person's ancestry back to,
> > say, the time of Christ, one's pyramid of descent actually forms what
> > heralds call a lozenge (a diamond shape, with the long axis running
> > vertical), with the living subject person being the point of
> > convergence at the bottom. I recall vaguely the explanation: the
> > further back one goes the smaller was the total human population, so
> > that relatedness increased rather than decreased into the very
> > distant past.
> >
> > Again, sorry to be vague. I hope this contributes, rather than
> > confuses.
> >
> > Robert Fripp
> > r_fripp@... <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
> <mailto:r_fripp%40impactg.com>
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 13:45:43
>From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
>To:
>Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>Many thanks.
>
>My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
>a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
>miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
>the completeness of its genealogical records.
>
==================================
Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition, I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
Maria
elena@...
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
>To:
>Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>Many thanks.
>
>My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
>a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
>miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
>the completeness of its genealogical records.
>
==================================
Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition, I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
Maria
elena@...
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 19:13:44
the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as the person submitting the information.
they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family history centers is done by volunteers.
the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc. there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal. essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers, some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on another visit.
i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their resources for over a decade.
the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their general access website is www.familysearch.org.
it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will find where all fhc are located at the website.
also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god of gods so to speak.
many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule. much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant faiths in the middle ages.
even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
regards
roslyn
Maria <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
>To:
>Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>Many thanks.
>
>My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
>a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
>miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
>the completeness of its genealogical records.
>
==================================
Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition, I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
Maria
elena@...
they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family history centers is done by volunteers.
the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc. there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal. essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers, some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on another visit.
i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their resources for over a decade.
the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their general access website is www.familysearch.org.
it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will find where all fhc are located at the website.
also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god of gods so to speak.
many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule. much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant faiths in the middle ages.
even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
regards
roslyn
Maria <ejbronte@...> wrote:
>From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
>Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
>To:
>Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>Many thanks.
>
>My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
>a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
>miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
>the completeness of its genealogical records.
>
==================================
Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition, I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
Maria
elena@...
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 20:17:44
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 21:52:51
I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up to godhood.
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-07 22:05:27
--- In , "Amy Barkman"
<amygary@...> wrote:
>
> I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in
many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any
way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work
their way up to godhood.
>
> If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism
implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the
belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life
only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are
actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it
ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the
law not enforced.
> And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was
arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old
men who wanted them.
> Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
> But I want to learn about Richard III!
> Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't
know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in
with Richard.
> Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until
I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on
for discussion?
> Perhaps, but I think you should learn a little about Richard's
nieces, nephews and cousins. I can probably help there.
Some of my personal genealogy has been researched at Suffolk FHC, on
a site owned by Mormons. They are not financially or doctrinally
agressive - I am an Anglican and they just store certificate copies
on microfiche.
> Amy Barkman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>
> Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used
their
> resources for checking information concerning local families--
mainly
> issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about
Great Aunt
> Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial
archives,
> for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be
helpful.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka
international
> > genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as
good as
> > the person submitting the information.
> >
> > they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka
family
> > history centers is done by volunteers.
> >
> > the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro
films
> > of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by
others.
> >
> > the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the
fhc.
> > there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> > essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
> >
> > anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff
are not
> > to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled
donations.
> >
> > anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
> >
> > the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are
volunteers,
> > some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory
response
> > from one staff person, try again with another person, or even
on
> > another visit.
> >
> > i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> > resources for over a decade.
> >
> > the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc.
their
> > general access website is www.familysearch.org.
> >
> > it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact
with the
> > organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the
information you
> > are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you
will
> > find where all fhc are located at the website.
> >
> > also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> > christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim.
this is
> > the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on
the
> > cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
> >
> > the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> > meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top
god...the god
> > of gods so to speak.
> >
> > many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah
witnesses
> > are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the
right to
> > interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream
christian
> > and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to
ridicule.
> > much as the catholic religion villified the break away
protestant
> > faiths in the middle ages.
> >
> > even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> > genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of
ancestors
> > in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to
my ex
> > husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> > regards
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> > >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> > >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> > >To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> > >
> > >Many thanks.
> > >
> > >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had
> > >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives
about five
> > >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
amazed at
> > >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> > >
> > ==================================
> >
> > Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> > research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> > recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In
addition,
> > I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine
Day, one
> > of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under
her
> > stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to
know
> > who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this,
and I
> > left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're
a last
> > resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
> >
> > Maria
> > elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
<amygary@...> wrote:
>
> I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in
many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any
way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work
their way up to godhood.
>
> If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism
implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the
belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life
only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are
actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it
ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the
law not enforced.
> And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was
arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old
men who wanted them.
> Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
> But I want to learn about Richard III!
> Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't
know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in
with Richard.
> Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until
I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on
for discussion?
> Perhaps, but I think you should learn a little about Richard's
nieces, nephews and cousins. I can probably help there.
Some of my personal genealogy has been researched at Suffolk FHC, on
a site owned by Mormons. They are not financially or doctrinally
agressive - I am an Anglican and they just store certificate copies
on microfiche.
> Amy Barkman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
>
> Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used
their
> resources for checking information concerning local families--
mainly
> issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about
Great Aunt
> Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial
archives,
> for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be
helpful.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka
international
> > genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as
good as
> > the person submitting the information.
> >
> > they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka
family
> > history centers is done by volunteers.
> >
> > the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro
films
> > of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by
others.
> >
> > the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the
fhc.
> > there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> > essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
> >
> > anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff
are not
> > to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled
donations.
> >
> > anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
> >
> > the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are
volunteers,
> > some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory
response
> > from one staff person, try again with another person, or even
on
> > another visit.
> >
> > i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> > resources for over a decade.
> >
> > the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc.
their
> > general access website is www.familysearch.org.
> >
> > it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact
with the
> > organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the
information you
> > are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you
will
> > find where all fhc are located at the website.
> >
> > also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> > christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim.
this is
> > the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on
the
> > cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
> >
> > the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> > meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top
god...the god
> > of gods so to speak.
> >
> > many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah
witnesses
> > are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the
right to
> > interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream
christian
> > and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to
ridicule.
> > much as the catholic religion villified the break away
protestant
> > faiths in the middle ages.
> >
> > even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> > genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of
ancestors
> > in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to
my ex
> > husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> > regards
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> > >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> > >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> > >To:
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> > >
> > >Many thanks.
> > >
> > >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had
> > >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives
about five
> > >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
amazed at
> > >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> > >
> > ==================================
> >
> > Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> > research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> > recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In
addition,
> > I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine
Day, one
> > of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under
her
> > stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to
know
> > who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this,
and I
> > left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're
a last
> > resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
> >
> > Maria
> > elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-08 01:01:15
personally, i'm not all that much of an expert of ric iii. i'm learning tho. i've been reading some of the chronicles from the tudor era and getting up to speed on the negatives attributed to ric iii.
if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne. i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the tower.
in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this topic.
and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
regards
roslyn
Amy Barkman <amygary@...> wrote:
I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up to godhood.
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne. i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the tower.
in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this topic.
and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
regards
roslyn
Amy Barkman <amygary@...> wrote:
I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up to godhood.
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
Re: Genetic studies
2006-09-08 01:42:29
Robert
{snip} ... at some point many generations ago ... the lines begin to
converge {snip}
Ann:
The concept is called "pedigree collapse," and When it starts to
Collapse is different for each individual - for instance, my very
ordinary pedigree probably reaches its widest extent in, say, the late
Middle Ages, while, say, the Prince of Wales' collapses much sooner -
Queen Victoria appears in multiple slots. A series of cousin marriages
gave James Armand Edmond de Rothschild fewer than the usual four
great-grandfathers (the Rothschilds tended toward cousin marriages;
Mayer Amschel Rothschild fills three of the possible slots and one of
his sons the fourth).
The study actually showed that a hypothetical child born in
Britain in 1947 could be shown to be related to 5/6 of the population,
but not related to the other 1/6. IIRC, the UK population was assumed
to be stable throughout -- I don't recall that immigration influenced
the theory.
THE MOUNTAIN OF NAMES, by Alex Shoumatoff--fascinating book on human and
non-human kinship, and genealogy's relationship to same. Simon and
Schuster.
Bill:
My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon
Archives about five miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years
ago. I was amazed at the completeness of its genealogical records.
Ann:
That was pre-Internet. Does "amazing" grow exponentially?
These days my Eastern-Bloc-descended friends are beginning to be able to
research their ancestry.
The difficulty with medieval research through the LDS resources,
though, is that so much material is the result of Patron Submission,
with accuracy ranging from superb through optimistic to delusional. Vet
the source.
L.P.H.,
Ann
Feudalism: when it's your Count that votes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
{snip} ... at some point many generations ago ... the lines begin to
converge {snip}
Ann:
The concept is called "pedigree collapse," and When it starts to
Collapse is different for each individual - for instance, my very
ordinary pedigree probably reaches its widest extent in, say, the late
Middle Ages, while, say, the Prince of Wales' collapses much sooner -
Queen Victoria appears in multiple slots. A series of cousin marriages
gave James Armand Edmond de Rothschild fewer than the usual four
great-grandfathers (the Rothschilds tended toward cousin marriages;
Mayer Amschel Rothschild fills three of the possible slots and one of
his sons the fourth).
The study actually showed that a hypothetical child born in
Britain in 1947 could be shown to be related to 5/6 of the population,
but not related to the other 1/6. IIRC, the UK population was assumed
to be stable throughout -- I don't recall that immigration influenced
the theory.
THE MOUNTAIN OF NAMES, by Alex Shoumatoff--fascinating book on human and
non-human kinship, and genealogy's relationship to same. Simon and
Schuster.
Bill:
My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon
Archives about five miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years
ago. I was amazed at the completeness of its genealogical records.
Ann:
That was pre-Internet. Does "amazing" grow exponentially?
These days my Eastern-Bloc-descended friends are beginning to be able to
research their ancestry.
The difficulty with medieval research through the LDS resources,
though, is that so much material is the result of Patron Submission,
with accuracy ranging from superb through optimistic to delusional. Vet
the source.
L.P.H.,
Ann
Feudalism: when it's your Count that votes.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-08 03:10:06
Oh, Roslyn, thank you so much!!!
I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I didn't think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes. Since that was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then especially since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance on murdering them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and throne claiming constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had more reason than Richard to dispose of them as threats.
I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford, and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
Thank you for all the leads!
Amy
Amy Barkman
"In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
Psalm 16:11
----- Original Message -----
From: fayre rose
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
personally, i'm not all that much of an expert of ric iii. i'm learning tho. i've been reading some of the chronicles from the tudor era and getting up to speed on the negatives attributed to ric iii.
if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne. i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the tower.
in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this topic.
and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
regards
roslyn
Amy Barkman <amygary@...> wrote:
I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up to godhood.
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I didn't think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes. Since that was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then especially since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance on murdering them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and throne claiming constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had more reason than Richard to dispose of them as threats.
I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford, and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
Thank you for all the leads!
Amy
Amy Barkman
"In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
Psalm 16:11
----- Original Message -----
From: fayre rose
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
personally, i'm not all that much of an expert of ric iii. i'm learning tho. i've been reading some of the chronicles from the tudor era and getting up to speed on the negatives attributed to ric iii.
if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne. i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the tower.
in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this topic.
and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
regards
roslyn
Amy Barkman <amygary@...> wrote:
I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up to godhood.
If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the law not enforced.
And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who wanted them.
Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
But I want to learn about Richard III!
Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with Richard.
Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for discussion?
Amy Barkman
----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Barber
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
Subject: Re: Genetic studies
Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
fayre rose wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-08 03:30:15
You might want to look at Louise Gill's /*Richard III & Buckingham's
Rebellion*/. It's published by Sutton (1999), and is available through
abebooks for $US6.94 (a heck of a deal):
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=764843961&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26an%3DLouise%2BGill%26y%3D9%26x%3D51
The book really digs into the politics and interrelationships that drove
the rebellion, which is a poorly understood phenomenon within a poorly
understood two-year period. Gill does a super job. At the time of
writing, she was a research associate at the University of Melbourne.
Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> Oh, Roslyn, thank you so much!!!
> I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I didn't
> think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes. Since that
> was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then especially
> since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance on murdering
> them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and throne claiming
> constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had more reason than
> Richard to dispose of them as threats.
>
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford, and
> why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> Thank you for all the leads!
> Amy
> Amy Barkman
> "In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
> Psalm 16:11
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fayre rose
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> personally, i'm not all that much of an expert of ric iii. i'm
> learning tho. i've been reading some of the chronicles from the tudor
> era and getting up to speed on the negatives attributed to ric iii.
>
> if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which
> you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
>
> my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the
> tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne.
> i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the
> princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
>
> tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was
> the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly
> married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the
> tower.
>
> in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being
> married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
>
> titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his
> claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother
> edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all
> copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and
> was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee
> talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
>
> recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot
> legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done
> on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
>
> there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more
> modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the
> bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
>
> i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram
> fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the
> princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
>
> aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir
> thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of
> the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov
> websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
>
> here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric
> iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
> http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
> <http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm>
>
> i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
>
> use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the
> forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this
> topic.
>
> and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry
> stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
>
> regards
> roslyn
>
> Amy Barkman <amygary@... <mailto:amygary%40mis.net>> wrote:
> I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many
> gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was
> simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up
> to godhood.
>
> If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism
> implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the
> belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life
> only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are
> actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it
> ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the
> law not enforced.
> And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested
> because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who
> wanted them.
> Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
> But I want to learn about Richard III!
> Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know
> it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with
> Richard.
> Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I
> have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for
> discussion?
>
> Amy Barkman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
> resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
> issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
> Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
> for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> > genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> > the person submitting the information.
> >
> > they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> > history centers is done by volunteers.
> >
> > the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> > of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
> >
> > the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> > there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> > essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
> >
> > anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> > to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
> >
> > anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
> >
> > the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> > some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> > from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> > another visit.
> >
> > i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> > resources for over a decade.
> >
> > the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> > general access website is www.familysearch.org.
> >
> > it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> > organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> > are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> > find where all fhc are located at the website.
> >
> > also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> > christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> > the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> > cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
> >
> > the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> > meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> > of gods so to speak.
> >
> > many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> > are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> > interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> > and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> > much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> > faiths in the middle ages.
> >
> > even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> > genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> > in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> > husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> > regards
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>
> <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> > >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>
> <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> > >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> > >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> > >
> > >Many thanks.
> > >
> > >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
> Toronto, had
> > >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about
> five
> > >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
> amazed at
> > >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> > >
> > ==================================
> >
> > Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> > research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> > recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> > I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> > of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> > stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> > who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> > left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> > resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
> >
> > Maria
> > elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Rebellion*/. It's published by Sutton (1999), and is available through
abebooks for $US6.94 (a heck of a deal):
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=764843961&searchurl=sts%3Dt%26an%3DLouise%2BGill%26y%3D9%26x%3D51
The book really digs into the politics and interrelationships that drove
the rebellion, which is a poorly understood phenomenon within a poorly
understood two-year period. Gill does a super job. At the time of
writing, she was a research associate at the University of Melbourne.
Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> Oh, Roslyn, thank you so much!!!
> I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I didn't
> think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes. Since that
> was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then especially
> since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance on murdering
> them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and throne claiming
> constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had more reason than
> Richard to dispose of them as threats.
>
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford, and
> why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> Thank you for all the leads!
> Amy
> Amy Barkman
> "In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
> Psalm 16:11
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: fayre rose
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 7:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> personally, i'm not all that much of an expert of ric iii. i'm
> learning tho. i've been reading some of the chronicles from the tudor
> era and getting up to speed on the negatives attributed to ric iii.
>
> if you go to one or the other of richard iii society websites..which
> you can get to by googling you'll find scads of info.
>
> my interest is in resolving what happened to the princes in the
> tower..richard is accused of murdering them and usurping their throne.
> i'm also interested in titulus regis, the document that proclaimed the
> princes and their siblings illegitimate, and why.
>
> tudor era historians said lady lucy, and then lady elizabeth lucy was
> the woman edward iv was precontracted to marry before he secretly
> married elizabeth woodville. she is the mother of the princes in the
> tower.
>
> in the 15th C, a precontract of marriage was equivilent to being
> married, especially if the couple indulged in sexual relations.
>
> titulus regis, was a document produced for richard iii to bolster his
> claim to the english throne, upon the death of his older brother
> edward iv. henry vii who took the throne by conquest, ordered all
> copies of the document destroyed. however, one managed to survive and
> was found in the 19thC. it names lady eleanor bulter/boteler nee
> talbot as the woman e4 was precontracted to marry.
>
> recently documents have turned up verifying some of the eleanor talbot
> legend. the richard iii society is working on having dna testing done
> on the remains of a body thought to be that of eleanor talbot.
>
> there is also a lobby to get the current british monarch to allow more
> modern testing on the bones of the princes to determine if indeed the
> bones found at the foot of the tower stairs are those of the princes.
>
> i've read two modern books on ric iii and the princes. one by bertram
> fields, called royal blood. a very basic read. the second is the
> princes in the tower by elizabeth jenkins...a tad more accademic.
>
> aside from ploughing thru chronicles etc. like holinshed, hall and sir
> thomas more's rendition of history. i'm slogging thru the 5 volumes of
> the lisle letters, and constantly surfing the net, and the british gov
> websites looking for more info. to verify/debunk the era's writers.
>
> here's another website that should give you a brief overview of ric
> iii and there is even a link to the story of his son, richard of eastwell.
> http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm
> <http://www.merlinventor.com/index.htm>
>
> i'm sure the others on the forum can provide you with more info.
>
> use some of the names/places mentioned is this email and search the
> forum's archives...there is a whole lotta learning to be done on this
> topic.
>
> and for the record..i think the duke of buckingham, aka henry/harry
> stafford murdered the princes, and tried to blame it on richard.
>
> regards
> roslyn
>
> Amy Barkman <amygary@... <mailto:amygary%40mis.net>> wrote:
> I was the one who made the comment about the Mormons believing in many
> gods. That was not a negative comment or a put down in any way. I was
> simply stating the fact that they believe that men work their way up
> to godhood.
>
> If I voiced a negative about Mormonism, it would be the chauvinism
> implied in the fact that the reason for multiple wives is that the
> belief system says women are able to be taken up into eternal life
> only if they are married to one of these potential gods. And they are
> actually lobbying there now for their rights to polygamy. Not that it
> ever stopped - many have practiced it- it was just overlooked and the
> law not enforced.
> And in America we are right now all aware of the man who was arrested
> because he hooked up very young girls to be wives of the old men who
> wanted them.
> Hey, I guess I did voice that negative, didn't I?
> But I want to learn about Richard III!
> Teach me, please. Everyone is talking about geneology but I don't know
> it well enough to understand how some of these people fit in with
> Richard.
> Or should I get off the list - or at least change my status - until I
> have read at least one biography of Richard and then get back on for
> discussion?
>
> Amy Barkman
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bill Barber
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 3:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Genetic studies
>
> Haven't used them for many years. As a curator, I sometimes used their
> resources for checking information concerning local families--mainly
> issues of provenence. Not everything a person tells you about Great Aunt
> Mabel is true. We had other resources as well: the provincial archives,
> for example. Getting to know some of the researchers can be helpful.
>
> fayre rose wrote:
> >
> > the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
> > genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
> > the person submitting the information.
> >
> > they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka family
> > history centers is done by volunteers.
> >
> > the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro films
> > of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by others.
> >
> > the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the fhc.
> > there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
> > essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
> >
> > anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are not
> > to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled donations.
> >
> > anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
> >
> > the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are volunteers,
> > some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory response
> > from one staff person, try again with another person, or even on
> > another visit.
> >
> > i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
> > resources for over a decade.
> >
> > the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc. their
> > general access website is www.familysearch.org.
> >
> > it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact with the
> > organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the information you
> > are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local fhc. you will
> > find where all fhc are located at the website.
> >
> > also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
> > christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this is
> > the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
> > cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
> >
> > the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> > meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the god
> > of gods so to speak.
> >
> > many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah witnesses
> > are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the right to
> > interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream christian
> > and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to ridicule.
> > much as the catholic religion villified the break away protestant
> > faiths in the middle ages.
> >
> > even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
> > genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
> > in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
> > husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> > regards
> > roslyn
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Maria <ejbronte@... <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>
> <mailto:ejbronte%40optonline.net>> wrote:
> > >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>
> <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>>
> > >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> > >To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> > >
> > >Many thanks.
> > >
> > >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
> Toronto, had
> > >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives about
> five
> > >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
> amazed at
> > >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> > >
> > ==================================
> >
> > Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
> > research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
> > recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
> > I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day, one
> > of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under her
> > stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to know
> > who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this, and I
> > left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're a last
> > resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
> >
> > Maria
> > elena@... <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> <mailto:elena%40pipeline.com>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-08 16:23:10
I can second all that Katy has written. The LDS provide an amazing
resource for any family history researcher free of charge, and they
don't preach. The people on the desk are indeed volunteers and some
of them are better than others. You probably wouldn't get far if you
simply went in and asked them to find you an individual. They do try
to help but the centres are meant for individual study.
The index of all the sources they hold copies of is, as Katy says,
now online. You can order any of their films to view at your own
nearest centre and for basic cost (I think you can still loan a film
in the UK for 3 months for under £4). If there is no copy held in
your own country they will ship one over from Salt Lake City.
Whatever the motives behind it all (and other peoples' faiths are
their own prerogative), it's an amazing boon. My family were here
there and yon, and without the LDS I'd never have been able to get
where I have with my various lines without spending considerable
amounts of time at record offices at the other end of England,
various parts of Ireland, New Jersey and California.
Also, yes, I even learnt off the nuns at school that the Hebrews only
gradually came to believe there was only one god. For a long time
they just looked on Yahweh as their particular god, mightier than
the gods who favoured their neighbours.
Marie
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka
family history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro
films of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by
others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the
fhc. there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are
not to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled
donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are
volunteers, some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory
response from one staff person, try again with another person, or
even on another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc.
their general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact
with the organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the
information you are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local
fhc. you will find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this
is the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the
god of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah
witnesses are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the
right to interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream
christian and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to
ridicule. much as the catholic religion villified the break away
protestant faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@...> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives
about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day,
one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under
her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to
know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this,
and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're
a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
resource for any family history researcher free of charge, and they
don't preach. The people on the desk are indeed volunteers and some
of them are better than others. You probably wouldn't get far if you
simply went in and asked them to find you an individual. They do try
to help but the centres are meant for individual study.
The index of all the sources they hold copies of is, as Katy says,
now online. You can order any of their films to view at your own
nearest centre and for basic cost (I think you can still loan a film
in the UK for 3 months for under £4). If there is no copy held in
your own country they will ship one over from Salt Lake City.
Whatever the motives behind it all (and other peoples' faiths are
their own prerogative), it's an amazing boon. My family were here
there and yon, and without the LDS I'd never have been able to get
where I have with my various lines without spending considerable
amounts of time at record offices at the other end of England,
various parts of Ireland, New Jersey and California.
Also, yes, I even learnt off the nuns at school that the Hebrews only
gradually came to believe there was only one god. For a long time
they just looked on Yahweh as their particular god, mightier than
the gods who favoured their neighbours.
Marie
--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> the mormons aka latter day saints and their igi aka international
genealogical index, and family history records...ARE only as good as
the person submitting the information.
>
> they have volunteer transcribers. all work done in the fhc aka
family history centers is done by volunteers.
>
> the fhc are an affordable source to order in and look at micro
films of parish records, thereby avoiding transcription errors by
others.
>
> the mormons do not push their religion on individuals using the
fhc. there is only a charge to rent the microfilm. it is nominal.
essentially to handle the cost of shipping and handling.
>
> anyone can make a donation to their local fhc, but the staff are
not to request donations. at most one might see a jar labeled
donations.
>
> anyone can file their genealogical research with the fhc.
>
> the staff at the centers are not all knowning. they are
volunteers, some are better than others. if you get an unsatisfactory
response from one staff person, try again with another person, or
even on another visit.
>
> i am not affliated with the mormons. i have simply used their
resources for over a decade.
>
> the main lds fhc library is located in salt lake city aka slc.
their general access website is www.familysearch.org.
>
> it might be worth your time and effort to make direct contact
with the organization to ascertain if they do indeed have the
information you are seeking and if it can be delivered to your local
fhc. you will find where all fhc are located at the website.
>
> also, someone stated the mormons have many gods. so do all the
christian religions/sects. read the bible. it refers to eloim. this
is the pural of eloi. eloi is the archaic word for god. jesus on the
cross cried out..eloi, eloi why have you forsaken me.
>
> the commandment reads..thou shalt have no other gods before me.
> meaning the god of the judeo-christian religion is top god...the
god of gods so to speak.
>
> many people do not realise that the mormons and the jehovah
witnesses are christian sects. freedom of religion has given them the
right to interpret their relationship with god and jesus. mainstream
christian and other religions often hold these "newer" sects up to
ridicule. much as the catholic religion villified the break away
protestant faiths in the middle ages.
>
> even after all the years of associating with the mormons, and
genealogy. i still don't fully understand the inclusion of ancestors
in their religious rites. i do know i don't want to attached to my ex
husband for eternity. i think the feeling is mutual..:-))
> regards
> roslyn
>
>
>
>
> Maria <ejbronte@...> wrote:
> >From: Bill Barber <bbarber@...>
> >Sent: Sep 7, 2006 1:04 AM
> >To:
> >Subject: Re: Genetic studies
> >
> >Many thanks.
> >
> >My grandparents' small town, about sixty miles northwest of
Toronto, had
> >a Church of the Latter Day Saints. There is a Mormon Archives
about five
> >miles from me. I visited it about twenty-five years ago. I was
amazed at
> >the completeness of its genealogical records.
> >
> ==================================
>
> Though they've been occassionally very handy in my own family
research, the idea of so much data (and for such an eccentric
recruiting purpose) gives me something like the willies. In addition,
I recall dropping by the NYC branch when researching Larraine Day,
one of their own, incidentally, and they hand *nothing*, not under
her stage name and not under her birth name. They professed not to
know who she is. There was a little whiff of ostrasizing about this,
and I left the building a little more "willied" than before. They're
a last resort for me now: I'd rather owe them as little as possible.
>
> Maria
> elena@...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-08 16:54:26
--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of
material.
> The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's
ancestors
> are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be
identified so
> that they will be known to God.
>
> I thought the old boy was omniscient.
If what I read somewhere is correct, through the auspices of the
Mormon Church, you can arrange to have any of your deceased spinster
relatives married posthumously so that they can attain the prsumably
better heavenly status of a married woman.
Katy
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> The repository at Salt Lake City has a phenomenal amount of
material.
> The idea is that, if one converts to Mormonism, the convert's
ancestors
> are also 'saved'. Problem is that the ancestors have to be
identified so
> that they will be known to God.
>
> I thought the old boy was omniscient.
If what I read somewhere is correct, through the auspices of the
Mormon Church, you can arrange to have any of your deceased spinster
relatives married posthumously so that they can attain the prsumably
better heavenly status of a married woman.
Katy
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-09 14:11:40
Simple really Amy. Blame Richard and get the nation turned against
him, rid yourself of two young rivals, and once Richard is out of the
way the only Plantagenet left is - Henry Stafford! So Buckingham
thought of himself when Henry VII was mentioned, not Tudor.
Paul
On 8 Sep 2006, at 03:06, Amy Barkman wrote:
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
> and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
him, rid yourself of two young rivals, and once Richard is out of the
way the only Plantagenet left is - Henry Stafford! So Buckingham
thought of himself when Henry VII was mentioned, not Tudor.
Paul
On 8 Sep 2006, at 03:06, Amy Barkman wrote:
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
> and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
"a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-09 22:36:24
I agree, Paul
Audrey Williamson supports this argument. She also expresses interest in
the fact that, after Hastings' death, Hastings' retainers went mainly to
Buckingham. What was that about, I wonder? Strange stuff.
Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> Simple really Amy. Blame Richard and get the nation turned against
> him, rid yourself of two young rivals, and once Richard is out of the
> way the only Plantagenet left is - Henry Stafford! So Buckingham
> thought of himself when Henry VII was mentioned, not Tudor.
> Paul
>
> On 8 Sep 2006, at 03:06, Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> > I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
> > and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> "a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
>
>
Audrey Williamson supports this argument. She also expresses interest in
the fact that, after Hastings' death, Hastings' retainers went mainly to
Buckingham. What was that about, I wonder? Strange stuff.
Paul Trevor Bale wrote:
>
> Simple really Amy. Blame Richard and get the nation turned against
> him, rid yourself of two young rivals, and once Richard is out of the
> way the only Plantagenet left is - Henry Stafford! So Buckingham
> thought of himself when Henry VII was mentioned, not Tudor.
> Paul
>
> On 8 Sep 2006, at 03:06, Amy Barkman wrote:
>
> > I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
> > and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> "a winner is a dreamer who just won't quit"
>
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Genetic studies
2006-09-10 16:23:54
--- In , "Amy Barkman"
<amygary@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, Roslyn, thank you so much!!!
> I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I
didn't think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes.
Since that was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then
especially since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance
on murdering them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and
throne claiming constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had
more reason than Richard to dispose of them as threats.
>
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> Thank you for all the leads!
> Amy
> Amy Barkman
> "In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
> Psalm 16:11
> >
You should try John Martin Robinson's "The Staffords" - it will tell
you a lot about the second Duke among others and show you where they
fit in genealogically. Rumour has it a certain booklet may help
thetre as well.
<amygary@...> wrote:
>
> Oh, Roslyn, thank you so much!!!
> I did know about titulus regis and that is one of the reasons I
didn't think it made sense for Richard to have killed the Princes.
Since that was accepted as legal grounds for their illegimacy, then
especially since he had them in custody somewhere, why take a chance
on murdering them? I know that England was famous for uprisings and
throne claiming constantly but it does look to me like Henry VII had
more reason than Richard to dispose of them as threats.
>
> I am eager to find out about Henry Buckingham, Duke of Stafford,
and why it would benefit him to kill them and blame Richard.
>
> Thank you for all the leads!
> Amy
> Amy Barkman
> "In His Presence is fullness of Joy"
> Psalm 16:11
> >
You should try John Martin Robinson's "The Staffords" - it will tell
you a lot about the second Duke among others and show you where they
fit in genealogically. Rumour has it a certain booklet may help
thetre as well.
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