Probably another Anne of Exeter descendant ....

..... is John Julius (Duff Cooper), 2nd Viscount Norwich. His mother's
name was Lady Diana Manners - I haven't traced her in the usual way but
will do soon.

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ..... is John Julius (Duff Cooper), 2nd Viscount Norwich. His
mother's
> name was Lady Diana Manners - I haven't traced her in the usual way
but
> will do soon.
>
I have had a good look at van der Pas' "Genealogics". Viscount
Norwich's mother was the sister of the 9th Duke. Although married, he
is in his late seventies with only one child, an unmarried son of 47

John Julius Norwich also has a daughter, but the title will die with the son unless he or the son fathers a son. This is because John Julius was himself an only child, and the title was presumably granted in the normal way to his father, Alfred Duff Cooper, 'and the heirs male of his body'. In some cases titles will be granted with a 'special remainder' allowing inheritance by a daughter or brother if the original grantee has no sons. Lord Mountbatten's earldom is an example; at the time it was granted he only had daughters, and as a matter of reality he was unlikely to have a son, so a special remainder enabled the title to pass to his elder daughter, now Countess Mountbatten of Burma.

Ann



Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> ..... is John Julius (Duff Cooper), 2nd Viscount Norwich. His
mother's
> name was Lady Diana Manners - I haven't traced her in the usual way
but
> will do soon.
>
I have had a good look at van der Pas' "Genealogics". Viscount
Norwich's mother was the sister of the 9th Duke. Although married, he
is in his late seventies with only one child, an unmarried son of 47

It seems to me I remember 5 or so years ago that the Parliament voted to do away with hereditary titles. I especially remember because there were newspaper photos of the current Earl of Burford standing on the Woolsack shouting "Treason! Treason!" as the vote was announced! He now goes by the name of Charles Beauclerk, in a gesture of contempt, although he is allowed to be Earl of Burford for his lifetime. He just can't pass the title on to his son.
So the current thread of tracing who inherits current titles seems an exercise in futility to me.
Have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
What is the current standing of these hereditary titles?

L.M.L.,
Janet

No, Parliament did not vote to do away with hereditary titles. Instead, an act was passed to remove holders of hereditary peerages from the House of Lords. At the moment we are in a transitory situation, under which the hereditaries elect 90 of their fellows to sit in the Lords, along with the Earl Marshal (the Duke of Norfolk) and Lord Great Chamberlain (the Marquess of Cholmondeley) who sit ex officio.

Ann

"Janet ." <forevere@...> wrote:
It seems to me I remember 5 or so years ago that the Parliament voted to do away with hereditary titles. I especially remember because there were newspaper photos of the current Earl of Burford standing on the Woolsack shouting "Treason! Treason!" as the vote was announced! He now goes by the name of Charles Beauclerk, in a gesture of contempt, although he is allowed to be Earl of Burford for his lifetime. He just can't pass the title on to his son.
So the current thread of tracing who inherits current titles seems an exercise in futility to me.
Have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
What is the current standing of these hereditary titles?

L.M.L.,
Janet

If I were to be named a peer of the realm, I would take a cue from my
fellow countryman, Conrad Black, aka Lord Crossharbour. The name I would
choose would be 'Lord Across the Harbour from Lord Crossharbour'.

I know, Rose, I know. Technically I can't refer to him as my fellow
countryman, since he renounced his Canadian
n citizenship. But he's had a change of heart and wants it back. Shed a
tear for the guy.

Aside: Black's biographer states that, in a Hollinger board conference
call, when one of the participants referred to Barbara Amiel as 'Mrs.
Black', she screamed, "That's Lady Black, you bastard!".

Who says the colonial mentality is dead?

But, come to thing of itJanet . wrote:
>
> It seems to me I remember 5 or so years ago that the Parliament voted
> to do away with hereditary titles. I especially remember because there
> were newspaper photos of the current Earl of Burford standing on the
> Woolsack shouting "Treason! Treason!" as the vote was announced! He
> now goes by the name of Charles Beauclerk, in a gesture of contempt,
> although he is allowed to be Earl of Burford for his lifetime. He just
> can't pass the title on to his son.
> So the current thread of tracing who inherits current titles seems an
> exercise in futility to me.
> Have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
> What is the current standing of these hereditary titles?
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet
>
>
>
>

--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> If I were to be named a peer of the realm, I would take a cue from
my
> fellow countryman, Conrad Black, aka Lord Crossharbour. The name I
would
> choose would be 'Lord Across the Harbour from Lord Crossharbour'.
>
> I know, Rose, I know. Technically I can't refer to him as my fellow
> countryman, since he renounced his Canadian
> n citizenship. But he's had a change of heart and wants it back.
Shed a
> tear for the guy.
>
> Aside: Black's biographer states that, in a Hollinger board
conference
> call, when one of the participants referred to Barbara Amiel
as 'Mrs.
> Black', she screamed, "That's Lady Black, you bastard!".
>
> Who says the colonial mentality is dead?
>
> But, come to thing of itJanet . wrote:
> >
> > It seems to me I remember 5 or so years ago that the Parliament
voted
> > to do away with hereditary titles. I especially remember because
there
> > were newspaper photos of the current Earl of Burford standing on
the
> > Woolsack shouting "Treason! Treason!" as the vote was announced!
He
> > now goes by the name of Charles Beauclerk, in a gesture of
contempt,
> > although he is allowed to be Earl of Burford for his lifetime. He
just
> > can't pass the title on to his son.
> > So the current thread of tracing who inherits current titles
seems an
> > exercise in futility to me.
> > Have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
> > What is the current standing of these hereditary titles?
> >
> > L.M.L.,
> > Janet
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
Just to summarise:
Lord Norwich's daughter is not on Genealogics so I need to check
Tompsett tonight. Will report back.
Bill would become Baron Barber of Wherever.
The "Earl of Buford" is the heir to the Dukedom of St.Alban's
(descended from one of Charles II's bastards).

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@> wrote:
> >
> > If I were to be named a peer of the realm, I would take a cue
from
> my
> > fellow countryman, Conrad Black, aka Lord Crossharbour. The name
I
> would
> > choose would be 'Lord Across the Harbour from Lord Crossharbour'.
> >
> > I know, Rose, I know. Technically I can't refer to him as my
fellow
> > countryman, since he renounced his Canadian
> > n citizenship. But he's had a change of heart and wants it back.
> Shed a
> > tear for the guy.
> >
> > Aside: Black's biographer states that, in a Hollinger board
> conference
> > call, when one of the participants referred to Barbara Amiel
> as 'Mrs.
> > Black', she screamed, "That's Lady Black, you bastard!".
> >
> > Who says the colonial mentality is dead?
> >
> > But, come to thing of itJanet . wrote:
> > >
> > > It seems to me I remember 5 or so years ago that the Parliament
> voted
> > > to do away with hereditary titles. I especially remember
because
> there
> > > were newspaper photos of the current Earl of Burford standing
on
> the
> > > Woolsack shouting "Treason! Treason!" as the vote was
announced!
> He
> > > now goes by the name of Charles Beauclerk, in a gesture of
> contempt,
> > > although he is allowed to be Earl of Burford for his lifetime.
He
> just
> > > can't pass the title on to his son.
> > > So the current thread of tracing who inherits current titles
> seems an
> > > exercise in futility to me.
> > > Have I misinterpreted the whole thing?
> > > What is the current standing of these hereditary titles?
> > >
> > > L.M.L.,
> > > Janet
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Just to summarise:
> Lord Norwich's daughter is not on Genealogics so I need to check
> Tompsett tonight. Will report back.
> Bill would become Baron Barber of Wherever.
> The "Earl of Buford" is the heir to the Dukedom of St.Alban's
> (descended from one of Charles II's bastards).
>
Viscount Norwich's daughter is not on Tompsett either. A proper
library visit is on the cards.

At 21:43 07/11/2006, you wrote:
>Viscount Norwich's daughter is not on Tompsett either. A proper
>library visit is on the cards.

She's called Artemis Cooper and is married to Anthony Beevor.
http://www.antonybeevor.com They have written a book together and have two
children, according to Wikipedia.


Best wishes
Christine

Christine Headley
Listowner, Virtual Book Group - December - Notes on a Scandal by Zoe Heller
Butterrow, Stroud, Glos

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

--- In , Christine H
<christinelheadley@...> wrote:
>
> At 21:43 07/11/2006, you wrote:
> >Viscount Norwich's daughter is not on Tompsett either. A proper
> >library visit is on the cards.
>
> She's called Artemis Cooper and is married to Anthony Beevor.
> http://www.antonybeevor.com They have written a book together and
have two
> children, according to Wikipedia.
>
>
> Best wishes
> Christine
>
> Christine Headley
> Listowner, Virtual Book Group - December - Notes on a Scandal by
Zoe Heller
> Butterrow, Stroud, Glos
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
Thankyou.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. So the Earl of Burford can pass his title down to his son
(he has one by Canadian singer/actress, Roby) but no automatic seat in the House of Lords will go with the title. By the way, I think the Charles II connection is by way of Nell
Gwyn.

L.M.L.,
Janet

--- In , "Janet ." <forevere@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks for clearing that up for me. So the Earl of Burford can pass
his title down to his son
> (he has one by Canadian singer/actress, Roby) but no automatic seat
in the House of Lords will go with the title. By the way, I think the
Charles II connection is by way of Nell
> Gwyn.
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet
>
>
>
>
>
Almost right. I don't recall whether "Mr. Beauclerk"'s father has died
yet but he would be Duke of St. Alban's if and when. The heir is Earl
of Burford as a courtesy title only.

Provided Burford and Roby are married (or were married at the time of the son's birth).

The Charles II connection is indeed through Nell Gwynn.

Ann

Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
--- In , "Janet ." <forevere@...>
wrote:
>
> Thanks for clearing that up for me. So the Earl of Burford can pass
his title down to his son
> (he has one by Canadian singer/actress, Roby) but no automatic seat
in the House of Lords will go with the title. By the way, I think the
Charles II connection is by way of Nell
> Gwyn.
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet
>
>
>
>
>
Almost right. I don't recall whether "Mr. Beauclerk"'s father has died
yet but he would be Duke of St. Alban's if and when. The heir is Earl
of Burford as a courtesy title only.

Mr. Beauclerk and Roby were legally married at the time of the child's birth but they may be divorced by now. I thought I read somewhere that it was in the offing.
The Duke of St. Albans was still living at the time of the Woolsack episode - don't know if this is currently true.
So the "Earl of Burford" title does get passed on to Beauclerk's son and Beauclerk becomes Earl of St. Albans upon the death of the old E of St.A.
By the way, I''ve been to Burford and it is a beautiful town. There are buildings there dating from the reign of Edward IV, who established a home for the aged near the church.

L.M.L.,
Janet

--- In , "Janet ."
<forevere@...> wrote:
>
> Mr. Beauclerk and Roby were legally married at the time of the
child's birth but they may be divorced by now. I thought I read
somewhere that it was in the offing.
> The Duke of St. Albans was still living at the time of the
Woolsack episode - don't know if this is currently true.
> So the "Earl of Burford" title does get passed on to
Beauclerk's son and Beauclerk becomes Earl of St. Albans upon the
death of the old E of St.A.
> By the way, I''ve been to Burford and it is a beautiful town.
There are buildings there dating from the reign of Edward IV, who
established a home for the aged near the church.
>
> L.M.L.,
> Janet
>
>
>
Right, except that the senior title is DUKE of St. Alban's

At 17:26 09/11/2006, you wrote:
>--- In , "Janet ."
><forevere@...> wrote:
> >
> > So the "Earl of Burford" title does get passed on to
>Beauclerk's son and Beauclerk becomes Earl of St. Albans upon the
>death of the old E of St.A.
> > By the way, I''ve been to Burford and it is a beautiful town.
>There are buildings there dating from the reign of Edward IV, who
>established a home for the aged near the church.
> >
> >
>Right, except that the senior title is DUKE of St. Alban's

But it's even better without the apostrophe. The place is called St Albans.
I suspect the saint was called Alban and a church named after him would be
St Alban's, but the town isn't.


Best wishes
Christine

Christine Headley
Listowner, Virtual Book Group - December - Notes on a Scandal by Zoe Heller
Butterrow, Stroud, Glos

Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

--- In , Christine H
<christinelheadley@...> wrote:
>
> At 17:26 09/11/2006, you wrote:
> >--- In , "Janet ."
> ><forevere@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So the "Earl of Burford" title does get passed on to
> >Beauclerk's son and Beauclerk becomes Earl of St. Albans upon the
> >death of the old E of St.A.
> > > By the way, I''ve been to Burford and it is a beautiful
town.
> >There are buildings there dating from the reign of Edward IV, who
> >established a home for the aged near the church.
> > >
> > >
> >Right, except that the senior title is DUKE of St. Alban's
>
> But it's even better without the apostrophe. The place is called St
Albans.
> I suspect the saint was called Alban and a church named after him
would be
> St Alban's, but the town isn't.
>
>
> Best wishes
> Christine
>
> Christine Headley
> Listowner, Virtual Book Group - December - Notes on a Scandal by
Zoe Heller
> Butterrow, Stroud, Glos
>
> Send instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
I have just traced him on Genealogics - Leo is unaware that the 1915-
born Duke has died; we are thinking of the 1939-born Duke and 1965-
born Earl. What a convoluted line with such a lot of dead ends!

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Christine H
> <christinelheadley@> wrote:
> >
> > At 17:26 09/11/2006, you wrote:
> > >--- In , "Janet ."
> > ><forevere@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > So the "Earl of Burford" title does get passed on to
> > >Beauclerk's son and Beauclerk becomes Earl of St. Albans upon the
> > >death of the old E of St.A.
> > > > By the way, I''ve been to Burford and it is a beautiful
> town.
> > >There are buildings there dating from the reign of Edward IV, who
> > >established a home for the aged near the church.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >Right, except that the senior title is DUKE of St. Alban's
> >
> > But it's even better without the apostrophe. The place is called
St
> Albans.
> > I suspect the saint was called Alban and a church named after him
> would be
> > St Alban's, but the town isn't.
> >
> >
> > Best wishes
> > Christine
> >
> > Christine Headley
> > Listowner, Virtual Book Group - December - Notes on a Scandal by
> Zoe Heller
> > Butterrow, Stroud, Glos
> >
> > Send instant messages to your online friends
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
> >
> I have just traced him on Genealogics - Leo is unaware that the
1915-
> born Duke has died; we are thinking of the 1939-born Duke and 1965-
> born Earl. What a convoluted line with such a lot of dead ends!
>
And another possibility: Adam Ashley-Cooper, Australian rugby
international. After all, a Rutland heiress married an Earl of
Shrewsbury (family name: Ashley-Cooper) in Stuart times and the idea
of an aristocrat living in Australia (or New Zealand, Canada, the USS
or South Africa) is not unknown.
Time for a little more research, unless someone else knows already.