The Frontispiece to the Chroniques de Hainaut:An Introduction to Va

This article is a splendid explication of the famous frontispiece that
depicts Philip the Good of Burgundy.
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/ARTH/arth214_folder/burgundy_intro.html

--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> This article is a splendid explication of the famous frontispiece
that
> depicts Philip the Good of Burgundy.

Thanks Bill. That sheds a huge amount of light on the picture
purportedly showing Richard. Summing up, then:-
1) These were imagined scenes and sometimes depicted things that
could never have happened
2) They aimed to show the King amongst his courtiers. The Burgundian
ones showed the members of the Order of the Golden Fleece wearing
their collars. Not surprising, then that the Waurin/Edward IV pic
shows two individuals wearing Garters. Also, Edward's situation in
Burgundy would explain why his picture has far fewer figures in it.
3) There was an attempt to use genuine portraits for the nobles and
government functionaries represented
4) One of the examples shown looks as though it dates from what we
would call the Yorkist era, and it shows virtually all the courtiers
wearing extremely short jackets.

On that basis perhaps we can assume that the artist aimed for a
likeness of a couple of members of Edward's entourage (though he may
not have been very familiar with their appearance), and that of the
two figures with garters, the older man in the short jacket is
Hastings and the young man in the long slit gown is Richard, and that
Hastings is shown wearing what was quite unremarkable clothing in the
Burgundian context. What does everyone think?
Both men have craggy chins and awkward mouths anyway.
Does anyone know, do the staffs or wands being carried by the two
figures on the left of the Edward IV/ Waurin portrait have any
significance?

Marie







>
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/ARTH/arth214_folder/burgundy_int
ro.html
>
>
>
>

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@> wrote:
> >
> > This article is a splendid explication of the famous
frontispiece
> that
> > depicts Philip the Good of Burgundy.
>
> Thanks Bill. That sheds a huge amount of light on the picture
> purportedly showing Richard. Summing up, then:-
> 1) These were imagined scenes and sometimes depicted things that
> could never have happened
> 2) They aimed to show the King amongst his courtiers. The
Burgundian
> ones showed the members of the Order of the Golden Fleece wearing
> their collars. Not surprising, then that the Waurin/Edward IV pic
> shows two individuals wearing Garters. Also, Edward's situation in
> Burgundy would explain why his picture has far fewer figures in
it.
> 3) There was an attempt to use genuine portraits for the nobles
and
> government functionaries represented

[snip]

On that basis perhaps we can assume that the artist aimed for a
> likeness of a couple of members of Edward's entourage (though he
may
> not have been very familiar with their appearance), and that of
the
> two figures with garters, the older man in the short jacket is
> Hastings and the young man in the long slit gown is Richard, and
that
> Hastings is shown wearing what was quite unremarkable clothing



It should be noted that the figure that is thought to represent
Richard is a slender, graceful man with no lopsided shoulders or
hump. Since the artist was evidently trying to create likenesses of
the nobles when he could, to make the illustrations more realistic,
and since Richard had been in Burgundy for a while, I think the
artidst would have included any identifying characteristic Richard
had. And he evidently had none.

Katy

--- In , oregonkaty
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "mariewalsh2003"
> <marie@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , Bill Barber
> > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This article is a splendid explication of the famous
> frontispiece
> > that
> > > depicts Philip the Good of Burgundy.
> >
> > Thanks Bill. That sheds a huge amount of light on the picture
> > purportedly showing Richard. Summing up, then:-
> > 1) These were imagined scenes and sometimes depicted things that
> > could never have happened
> > 2) They aimed to show the King amongst his courtiers. The
> Burgundian
> > ones showed the members of the Order of the Golden Fleece wearing
> > their collars. Not surprising, then that the Waurin/Edward IV pic
> > shows two individuals wearing Garters. Also, Edward's situation
in
> > Burgundy would explain why his picture has far fewer figures in
> it.
> > 3) There was an attempt to use genuine portraits for the nobles
> and
> > government functionaries represented
>
> [snip]
>
> On that basis perhaps we can assume that the artist aimed for a
> > likeness of a couple of members of Edward's entourage (though he
> may
> > not have been very familiar with their appearance), and that of
> the
> > two figures with garters, the older man in the short jacket is
> > Hastings and the young man in the long slit gown is Richard, and
> that
> > Hastings is shown wearing what was quite unremarkable clothing
>
>
>
> It should be noted that the figure that is thought to represent
> Richard is a slender, graceful man with no lopsided shoulders or
> hump. Since the artist was evidently trying to create likenesses
of
> the nobles when he could, to make the illustrations more realistic,
> and since Richard had been in Burgundy for a while, I think the
> artidst would have included any identifying characteristic Richard
> had. And he evidently had none.
>
> Katy

A good point - there's no hump anywhere in the picture, is there? I'd
also like to observe that another reason for identifying Richard as
the younger long-robed gartered figure on the right, rather than (as
usually claimed) the older gartered Man-in-tights on the left, is
that the man on the left has very well developed leg muscles - pretty
chunky thighs, in fact, whereas Von Poppelau specifically recorded
that Richard had "delicate arms and legs".

Marie

He may have needed some "lipo" later in life.

mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, oregonkaty
> <no_reply@...> wrote:
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "mariewalsh2003"
> > <marie@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, Bill Barber
> > > <bbarber@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > This article is a splendid explication of the famous
> > frontispiece
> > > that
> > > > depicts Philip the Good of Burgundy.
> > >
> > > Thanks Bill. That sheds a huge amount of light on the picture
> > > purportedly showing Richard. Summing up, then:-
> > > 1) These were imagined scenes and sometimes depicted things that
> > > could never have happened
> > > 2) They aimed to show the King amongst his courtiers. The
> > Burgundian
> > > ones showed the members of the Order of the Golden Fleece wearing
> > > their collars. Not surprising, then that the Waurin/Edward IV pic
> > > shows two individuals wearing Garters. Also, Edward's situation
> in
> > > Burgundy would explain why his picture has far fewer figures in
> > it.
> > > 3) There was an attempt to use genuine portraits for the nobles
> > and
> > > government functionaries represented
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > On that basis perhaps we can assume that the artist aimed for a
> > > likeness of a couple of members of Edward's entourage (though he
> > may
> > > not have been very familiar with their appearance), and that of
> > the
> > > two figures with garters, the older man in the short jacket is
> > > Hastings and the young man in the long slit gown is Richard, and
> > that
> > > Hastings is shown wearing what was quite unremarkable clothing
> >
> >
> >
> > It should be noted that the figure that is thought to represent
> > Richard is a slender, graceful man with no lopsided shoulders or
> > hump. Since the artist was evidently trying to create likenesses
> of
> > the nobles when he could, to make the illustrations more realistic,
> > and since Richard had been in Burgundy for a while, I think the
> > artidst would have included any identifying characteristic Richard
> > had. And he evidently had none.
> >
> > Katy
>
> A good point - there's no hump anywhere in the picture, is there? I'd
> also like to observe that another reason for identifying Richard as
> the younger long-robed gartered figure on the right, rather than (as
> usually claimed) the older gartered Man-in-tights on the left, is
> that the man on the left has very well developed leg muscles - pretty
> chunky thighs, in fact, whereas Von Poppelau specifically recorded
> that Richard had "delicate arms and legs".
>
> Marie
>


>
>

--- In , Bill Barber
<bbarber@...> wrote:
>
> He may have needed some "lipo" later in life.
>

Ah! that exeplains it then. Von Poppelau must have met Richard after
the liposuction.

--- In , "mariewalsh2003"
<marie@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , Bill Barber
> <bbarber@> wrote:
> >
> > He may have needed some "lipo" later in life.
> >
>
> Ah! that exeplains it then. Von Poppelau must have met Richard after
> the liposuction.
>


Or after he saw a good Burgundian chiropractor.

Katy