Latin -- grrrrrr!

Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the National Archives, UK. I wish I had found
such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class (age 9) we considered the
noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh, was explaining the
vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!) Something in my head
snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week for the next five years: never
mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a chorister in Salisbury
Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I understood the texts of the
psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done in the late '50s. But i
could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O" level exam -- and was
therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth still grate over that word.
Robert Fripp

The only Latin I remember from high school is 'Semper ubi sub ubi".

Robert Fripp wrote:
>
> Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the National
> Archives, UK. I wish I had found
> such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class
> (age 9) we considered the
> noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh, was
> explaining the
> vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!)
> Something in my head
> snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week for
> the next five years: never
> mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a
> chorister in Salisbury
> Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I
> understood the texts of the
> psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done in
> the late '50s. But i
> could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O"
> level exam -- and was
> therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth still
> grate over that word.
> Robert Fripp
>
>

My bog standard Oxfordshire school dropped Latin the year before I
entered it, notwithstanding the fact that it was a requirement for
university entrance for my subject. I am told that I probably have a
case in law against the County Council for denying me the chance to
apply to a traditional university. I was angry then, and I am angry
now - I felt that it was my right, as a grammar school pupil, to be
taught Latin. In the event, I had to try to learn Latin myself and, in
this context, I found LATIN FOR LOCAL HISTORY by Eileen Gooder (1961)
to be particularly helpful.

--- In , "Stanley C.Jenkins"
<stanleyc.jenkins@...> wrote:
>
> My bog standard Oxfordshire school dropped Latin the year before I
> entered it, notwithstanding the fact that it was a requirement for
> university entrance for my subject. I am told that I probably have a
> case in law against the County Council for denying me the chance to
> apply to a traditional university. I was angry then, and I am angry
> now - I felt that it was my right, as a grammar school pupil, to be
> taught Latin. In the event, I had to try to learn Latin myself and,
in
> this context, I found LATIN FOR LOCAL HISTORY by Eileen Gooder
(1961)
> to be particularly helpful.


I took three years of Latin in high school and am very glad I did. I
deal with medical terminology, and the Latin has been very useful in
spelling and vocabulary in general. I wish it was still offered in
public school.

Katy

Robert

You are in good company. If you read Winston Churchill's 'My Early Life' (wonderful book) you will see that on his arrival at prep school aged seven, he was instructed to learn the first declension of mensa. Having an excellent memory he reeled it off quite happily, then asked, 'but what does it mean?' The crabby headmaster explained, confusing our hero thoroughly. 'The vocative case is the way you would speak to a table.' 'But I never do,' said Winston and never made much progress with Latin thereafter.

Ann

Robert Fripp <r_fripp@...> wrote:
Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the National Archives, UK. I wish I had found
such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class (age 9) we considered the
noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh, was explaining the
vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!) Something in my head
snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week for the next five years: never
mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a chorister in Salisbury
Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I understood the texts of the
psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done in the late '50s. But i
could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O" level exam -- and was
therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth still grate over that word.
Robert Fripp

--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@...>
wrote:
>
> Robert
>
> You are in good company. If you read Winston Churchill's 'My
Early Life' (wonderful book) you will see that on his arrival at prep
school aged seven, he was instructed to learn the first declension of
mensa. Having an excellent memory he reeled it off quite happily,
then asked, 'but what does it mean?' The crabby headmaster explained,
confusing our hero thoroughly. 'The vocative case is the way you
would speak to a table.' 'But I never do,' said Winston and never
made much progress with Latin thereafter.

I must say my school experience was pretty much the same as Robert's
and Winston Churchill's, though I can't quite claim Mensa status. I
wonder if Katy's different take perhaps reflects as difference
between British and American methods of presenting Latin at that
time. I actually started off with immense enthusiasm, with a sense of
awe that I was going to learn the secrets of how the Ancient Romans
had spoken, and hear all those long-vanished voices. For a term or
two my enthusiasm kept my marks near the top of the class. By the end
of two years I was coming last and had completely lost the ability to
listen to a word said by dreary Magistra Winthorpa, or to learn a
single knew word/declension/case/tense. At that point we were
alllowed to drop Latin, and I did, having no prospect of getting an O
level in it. Hence I too was unqualified for the subect I wanted to
pursue at university level.
Some poeple did seem to thrive on the extremely dry and analytical
rote learning - they weren't the linguists but the natural
mathematicians, who said they liked Latin because it was 'logical'.
We kept getting told Latin was logical, and also a sort of ideal
language. I was puzzled, and so felt denser than ever. Lots of things
didn't seem logical, and of course as I've since found were the
inevitable result of corruption which over time leaves all languages
with anomalies. I also felt instinctively that not having either a
definite or an indefinite article was a big disadvantage. I still
feel that, too. You don't need both (the Celtic laguages get by very
well with a definite article only), but without either you can't make
that distinction.
If it's any consolation, Robert, I started struggling with medieval
Latin texts about three years ago, still hampered by that feeling
that this language was intrinsically beyond me. Left to myself
(without nitpicking teacher), I have come a long way. I'm still
vague about the grammar, and the fact that medieval scribes tend not
to write out the case endings hasn't helped me learn them, but that's
not so bad once you realise that if it's only for your own private
study you don't need to do so either. If anyone's keen to build up
medieval Latin skills, I'd strongly recommend practising on the same
type of document over and over until you get familiar with the
vocabulary, before moving on to a different type. Different sorts of
official document tend to be very formulaic.
I'd also recommend 'The Record Interpreter' by C.T. Martin. It has
medieval Latin vocabulary, and also a whole heap of abbreviated forms
with their meanings, and masses of Latin versions of placenames and
personal names.
Marie



>
> Ann
>
> Robert Fripp <r_fripp@...> wrote:
> Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the
National Archives, UK. I wish I had found
> such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class
(age 9) we considered the
> noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh,
was explaining the
> vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!)
Something in my head
> snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week
for the next five years: never
> mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a
chorister in Salisbury
> Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I
understood the texts of the
> psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done
in the late '50s. But i
> could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O"
level exam -- and was
> therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth
still grate over that word.
> Robert Fripp
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I did three years of Latin in an Ontario school. God, what a drag. How
many times did I have to read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"?

I made up my own rhythmic nmenonic for reflexive pronouns. It uses the
standard Desi Arnaz conga beat (not the bunny-hop). I'd write it out on
a musical staff, but Yahoo will only allow me to post in script, and I
don't have music writing software. If any of you remember the old Skybar
chocolate bar jingle, simply use _that_ rhythm.

_One_ two _three_ four, _Sky_ _Bar_!
_You'll_ love _nick_-el _Sky_ _Bar_!
_It's_ the _four_-in-_one_ bar!

_Me_-i _Mi_-hi _Me_ _Me_
_Tu_-i _Ti_-bi _Te_ _Te
Su_-i _Si_-bi _Se_ _Se_
http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~econrad/lang/lpnrefl.html

mariewalsh2003 wrote:
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A LYON <A.Lyon1@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Robert
> >
> > You are in good company. If you read Winston Churchill's 'My
> Early Life' (wonderful book) you will see that on his arrival at prep
> school aged seven, he was instructed to learn the first declension of
> mensa. Having an excellent memory he reeled it off quite happily,
> then asked, 'but what does it mean?' The crabby headmaster explained,
> confusing our hero thoroughly. 'The vocative case is the way you
> would speak to a table.' 'But I never do,' said Winston and never
> made much progress with Latin thereafter.
>
> I must say my school experience was pretty much the same as Robert's
> and Winston Churchill's, though I can't quite claim Mensa status. I
> wonder if Katy's different take perhaps reflects as difference
> between British and American methods of presenting Latin at that
> time. I actually started off with immense enthusiasm, with a sense of
> awe that I was going to learn the secrets of how the Ancient Romans
> had spoken, and hear all those long-vanished voices. For a term or
> two my enthusiasm kept my marks near the top of the class. By the end
> of two years I was coming last and had completely lost the ability to
> listen to a word said by dreary Magistra Winthorpa, or to learn a
> single knew word/declension/case/tense. At that point we were
> alllowed to drop Latin, and I did, having no prospect of getting an O
> level in it. Hence I too was unqualified for the subect I wanted to
> pursue at university level.
> Some poeple did seem to thrive on the extremely dry and analytical
> rote learning - they weren't the linguists but the natural
> mathematicians, who said they liked Latin because it was 'logical'.
> We kept getting told Latin was logical, and also a sort of ideal
> language. I was puzzled, and so felt denser than ever. Lots of things
> didn't seem logical, and of course as I've since found were the
> inevitable result of corruption which over time leaves all languages
> with anomalies. I also felt instinctively that not having either a
> definite or an indefinite article was a big disadvantage. I still
> feel that, too. You don't need both (the Celtic laguages get by very
> well with a definite article only), but without either you can't make
> that distinction.
> If it's any consolation, Robert, I started struggling with medieval
> Latin texts about three years ago, still hampered by that feeling
> that this language was intrinsically beyond me. Left to myself
> (without nitpicking teacher), I have come a long way. I'm still
> vague about the grammar, and the fact that medieval scribes tend not
> to write out the case endings hasn't helped me learn them, but that's
> not so bad once you realise that if it's only for your own private
> study you don't need to do so either. If anyone's keen to build up
> medieval Latin skills, I'd strongly recommend practising on the same
> type of document over and over until you get familiar with the
> vocabulary, before moving on to a different type. Different sorts of
> official document tend to be very formulaic.
> I'd also recommend 'The Record Interpreter' by C.T. Martin. It has
> medieval Latin vocabulary, and also a whole heap of abbreviated forms
> with their meanings, and masses of Latin versions of placenames and
> personal names.
> Marie
>
> >
> > Ann
> >
> > Robert Fripp <r_fripp@...> wrote:
> > Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the
> National Archives, UK. I wish I had found
> > such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class
> (age 9) we considered the
> > noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh,
> was explaining the
> > vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!)
> Something in my head
> > snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week
> for the next five years: never
> > mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a
> chorister in Salisbury
> > Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I
> understood the texts of the
> > psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done
> in the late '50s. But i
> > could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O"
> level exam -- and was
> > therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth
> still grate over that word.
> > Robert Fripp
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

Sorry, I wrote out the mnemonic with stresses, but Yahoo screwed it up.
I'll look for something else. I will say that, after forty years, it's
the only Latin paradigm I remember.

Bill Barber wrote:
>
> I did three years of Latin in an Ontario school. God, what a drag. How
> many times did I have to read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"?
>
> I made up my own rhythmic nmenonic for reflexive pronouns. It uses the
> standard Desi Arnaz conga beat (not the bunny-hop). I'd write it out on
> a musical staff, but Yahoo will only allow me to post in script, and I
> don't have music writing software. If any of you remember the old Skybar
> chocolate bar jingle, simply use _that_ rhythm.
>
> _One_ two _three_ four, _Sky_ _Bar_!
> _You'll_ love _nick_-el _Sky_ _Bar_!
> _It's_ the _four_-in-_one_ bar!
>
> _Me_-i _Mi_-hi _Me_ _Me_
> _Tu_-i _Ti_-bi _Te_ _Te
> Su_-i _Si_-bi _Se_ _Se_
> http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~econrad/lang/lpnrefl.html
> <http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/%7Eeconrad/lang/lpnrefl.html>
>
> mariewalsh2003 wrote:
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, A LYON <A.Lyon1@...>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Robert
> > >
> > > You are in good company. If you read Winston Churchill's 'My
> > Early Life' (wonderful book) you will see that on his arrival at prep
> > school aged seven, he was instructed to learn the first declension of
> > mensa. Having an excellent memory he reeled it off quite happily,
> > then asked, 'but what does it mean?' The crabby headmaster explained,
> > confusing our hero thoroughly. 'The vocative case is the way you
> > would speak to a table.' 'But I never do,' said Winston and never
> > made much progress with Latin thereafter.
> >
> > I must say my school experience was pretty much the same as Robert's
> > and Winston Churchill's, though I can't quite claim Mensa status. I
> > wonder if Katy's different take perhaps reflects as difference
> > between British and American methods of presenting Latin at that
> > time. I actually started off with immense enthusiasm, with a sense of
> > awe that I was going to learn the secrets of how the Ancient Romans
> > had spoken, and hear all those long-vanished voices. For a term or
> > two my enthusiasm kept my marks near the top of the class. By the end
> > of two years I was coming last and had completely lost the ability to
> > listen to a word said by dreary Magistra Winthorpa, or to learn a
> > single knew word/declension/case/tense. At that point we were
> > alllowed to drop Latin, and I did, having no prospect of getting an O
> > level in it. Hence I too was unqualified for the subect I wanted to
> > pursue at university level.
> > Some poeple did seem to thrive on the extremely dry and analytical
> > rote learning - they weren't the linguists but the natural
> > mathematicians, who said they liked Latin because it was 'logical'.
> > We kept getting told Latin was logical, and also a sort of ideal
> > language. I was puzzled, and so felt denser than ever. Lots of things
> > didn't seem logical, and of course as I've since found were the
> > inevitable result of corruption which over time leaves all languages
> > with anomalies. I also felt instinctively that not having either a
> > definite or an indefinite article was a big disadvantage. I still
> > feel that, too. You don't need both (the Celtic laguages get by very
> > well with a definite article only), but without either you can't make
> > that distinction.
> > If it's any consolation, Robert, I started struggling with medieval
> > Latin texts about three years ago, still hampered by that feeling
> > that this language was intrinsically beyond me. Left to myself
> > (without nitpicking teacher), I have come a long way. I'm still
> > vague about the grammar, and the fact that medieval scribes tend not
> > to write out the case endings hasn't helped me learn them, but that's
> > not so bad once you realise that if it's only for your own private
> > study you don't need to do so either. If anyone's keen to build up
> > medieval Latin skills, I'd strongly recommend practising on the same
> > type of document over and over until you get familiar with the
> > vocabulary, before moving on to a different type. Different sorts of
> > official document tend to be very formulaic.
> > I'd also recommend 'The Record Interpreter' by C.T. Martin. It has
> > medieval Latin vocabulary, and also a whole heap of abbreviated forms
> > with their meanings, and masses of Latin versions of placenames and
> > personal names.
> > Marie
> >
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > > Robert Fripp <r_fripp@...> wrote:
> > > Thanks, Bill, for the lead to Beginner's Latin at the
> > National Archives, UK. I wish I had found
> > > such a resource decades ago. Two minutes into my first Latin class
> > (age 9) we considered the
> > > noun Mensa (a table). Two minutes later my teacher, Mr. Cavenagh,
> > was explaining the
> > > vocative case of mensa -- (in case one wished to address a table!)
> > Something in my head
> > > snapped there and then. I had Latin classes at least twice a week
> > for the next five years: never
> > > mind that i was also singing psalms and oratorios in Latin as a
> > chorister in Salisbury
> > > Cathedral during those same years. By the time I left Salisbury I
> > understood the texts of the
> > > psalms and the liturgy as well as a Catholic priest might have done
> > in the late '50s. But i
> > > could never shake my loathing long enough to take the British "O"
> > level exam -- and was
> > > therefore barred from studying law or medicine. Latin! My teeth
> > still grate over that word.
> > > Robert Fripp
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

Bill Barber wrote:

>I did three years of Latin in an Ontario school. God, what a drag. How
>many times did I have to read "Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres"?
>
>

Lol, I remember that! Actually, it's about all I remember from three
years of High School Latin.

Gilda