Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Another view of Richard

Richard partitioned the Mowbray inheritance between Howard and Berkeley who were the right heirs.

Edward passed an act of Parliament that gave the Mowbray lands to his son in the event of Anne Mowbray dying without heirs of her body, as of course she did. This was legal in the sense it was an act of parliament, but it was against all the normal rules of inheritance.

Brian W

----- Original Message -----
From: rgcorris
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: Another view of Richard


Remind me - did Richard give the full Mowbray inheritance to John
Howard ? In that presumably it was taken from Edward IV's son
Richard as widower of the Mowbray heiress, at what date did that
take place ? Indeed, given that he was unquestionably married to the
Mowbray heiress whether or not he was the legitimate son of Edward
IV, how was he disinherited (other than by death) ?

Richard G

--- In , "Rogue"
<roguefem@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Have any of you read Mary Clive's biography of Edward
> IV, "The Sun of York"? I found it rather refreshing
> in its fair treatment of Richard. Mind you, she takes
> a rather dim view of some of his actions and I don't
> always agree with her conclusions, but she doesn't
> seem to view him as either paragon or fiend, but as a
> person to be judged on his actions, good and bad.
>
> In the brief epilogue covering Richard's reign, she
> advances a very interesting theory that it was
> Norfolk and not Buckingham who was the driving force
> pursuading Richard to take the crown, in hopes of
> getting back the Mowbray inheritance. Opinions?
>
>
> Take care,
> Kat

If I recall correctly Ann, Berkeley sold the reversion of most or all of his lands to the crown and died in his bed. But eventually the family got the lands back, probably because the male line of Tudors died out.

Brian


----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard


what became of Berkeley in the longer term?

Ann

Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
According to Ross, after Richard extinguished the rights of the princes,
William Berkeley regained his rights to half the Mowbray estates. He was
also made Earl of Nottingham.

rgcorris wrote:
>
> Remind me - did Richard give the full Mowbray inheritance to John
> Howard ? In that presumably it was taken from Edward IV's son
> Richard as widower of the Mowbray heiress, at what date did that
> take place ? Indeed, given that he was unquestionably married to the
> Mowbray heiress whether or not he was the legitimate son of Edward
> IV, how was he disinherited (other than by death) ?
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rogue"
> <roguefem@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Have any of you read Mary Clive's biography of Edward
> > IV, "The Sun of York"? I found it rather refreshing
> > in its fair treatment of Richard. Mind you, she takes
> > a rather dim view of some of his actions and I don't
> > always agree with her conclusions, but she doesn't
> > seem to view him as either paragon or fiend, but as a
> > person to be judged on his actions, good and bad.
> >
> > In the brief epilogue covering Richard's reign, she
> > advances a very interesting theory that it was
> > Norfolk and not Buckingham who was the driving force
> > pursuading Richard to take the crown, in hopes of
> > getting back the Mowbray inheritance. Opinions?
> >
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kat
>
>

Thanks. How was William Berkeley related to the Berkeleys of Berkeley Castle, who were out with Margaret of Anjou in the 1471 campaign?

Ann

Brian Wainwright <Brian@...> wrote:
If I recall correctly Ann, Berkeley sold the reversion of most or all of his lands to the crown and died in his bed. But eventually the family got the lands back, probably because the male line of Tudors died out.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard

what became of Berkeley in the longer term?

Ann

Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
According to Ross, after Richard extinguished the rights of the princes,
William Berkeley regained his rights to half the Mowbray estates. He was
also made Earl of Nottingham.

rgcorris wrote:
>
> Remind me - did Richard give the full Mowbray inheritance to John
> Howard ? In that presumably it was taken from Edward IV's son
> Richard as widower of the Mowbray heiress, at what date did that
> take place ? Indeed, given that he was unquestionably married to the
> Mowbray heiress whether or not he was the legitimate son of Edward
> IV, how was he disinherited (other than by death) ?
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rogue"
> <roguefem@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Have any of you read Mary Clive's biography of Edward
> > IV, "The Sun of York"? I found it rather refreshing
> > in its fair treatment of Richard. Mind you, she takes
> > a rather dim view of some of his actions and I don't
> > always agree with her conclusions, but she doesn't
> > seem to view him as either paragon or fiend, but as a
> > person to be judged on his actions, good and bad.
> >
> > In the brief epilogue covering Richard's reign, she
> > advances a very interesting theory that it was
> > Norfolk and not Buckingham who was the driving force
> > pursuading Richard to take the crown, in hopes of
> > getting back the Mowbray inheritance. Opinions?
> >
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kat
>
>

Don't know the precise relationship, but if he wasn't actually one of them himself he'd be the son or grandson as the family descent was (and is) unbroken. The Berkeleys and the Talbots were at feud during this era, and Edward IV eventually cut a deal whereby substantial Berkeley debts (over 36 grand!) to the Talbots were cancelled in return for the then Lord Berkeley (inter alia) renouncing his claim to the Mowbray inheritance. Richard cancelled this deal, but both he and Henry VII did reversion deals with Berkeley. I believe part of the package was that Berkeley's title got inflated. It will all be in Complete Peerage if you want the detail.

Brian


----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard


Thanks. How was William Berkeley related to the Berkeleys of Berkeley Castle, who were out with Margaret of Anjou in the 1471 campaign?

Ann

Brian Wainwright <Brian@...> wrote:
If I recall correctly Ann, Berkeley sold the reversion of most or all of his lands to the crown and died in his bed. But eventually the family got the lands back, probably because the male line of Tudors died out.

Brian

----- Original Message -----
From: A LYON
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:14 AM
Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard

what became of Berkeley in the longer term?

Ann

Bill Barber <bbarber@...> wrote:
According to Ross, after Richard extinguished the rights of the princes,
William Berkeley regained his rights to half the Mowbray estates. He was
also made Earl of Nottingham.

rgcorris wrote:
>
> Remind me - did Richard give the full Mowbray inheritance to John
> Howard ? In that presumably it was taken from Edward IV's son
> Richard as widower of the Mowbray heiress, at what date did that
> take place ? Indeed, given that he was unquestionably married to the
> Mowbray heiress whether or not he was the legitimate son of Edward
> IV, how was he disinherited (other than by death) ?
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rogue"
> <roguefem@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Have any of you read Mary Clive's biography of Edward
> > IV, "The Sun of York"? I found it rather refreshing
> > in its fair treatment of Richard. Mind you, she takes
> > a rather dim view of some of his actions and I don't
> > always agree with her conclusions, but she doesn't
> > seem to view him as either paragon or fiend, but as a
> > person to be judged on his actions, good and bad.
> >
> > In the brief epilogue covering Richard's reign, she
> > advances a very interesting theory that it was
> > Norfolk and not Buckingham who was the driving force
> > pursuading Richard to take the crown, in hopes of
> > getting back the Mowbray inheritance. Opinions?
> >
> >
> > Take care,
> > Kat
>
>

William Berkeley became Viscount Berkeley. He seems to have had a
'thing' for trading off land for titles. Perhaps he saw his future more
in terms of holding various offices than in amassing properties.

Brian Wainwright wrote:
>
> Don't know the precise relationship, but if he wasn't actually one of
> them himself he'd be the son or grandson as the family descent was
> (and is) unbroken. The Berkeleys and the Talbots were at feud during
> this era, and Edward IV eventually cut a deal whereby substantial
> Berkeley debts (over 36 grand!) to the Talbots were cancelled in
> return for the then Lord Berkeley (inter alia) renouncing his claim to
> the Mowbray inheritance. Richard cancelled this deal, but both he and
> Henry VII did reversion deals with Berkeley. I believe part of the
> package was that Berkeley's title got inflated. It will all be in
> Complete Peerage if you want the detail.
>
> Brian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A LYON
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard
>
> Thanks. How was William Berkeley related to the Berkeleys of Berkeley
> Castle, who were out with Margaret of Anjou in the 1471 campaign?
>
> Ann
>
> Brian Wainwright <Brian@...
> <mailto:Brian%40gcr1165.freeserve.co.uk>> wrote:
> If I recall correctly Ann, Berkeley sold the reversion of most or all
> of his lands to the crown and died in his bed. But eventually the
> family got the lands back, probably because the male line of Tudors
> died out.
>
> Brian
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: A LYON
> To:
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2007 10:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Re: Another view of Richard
>
> what became of Berkeley in the longer term?
>
> Ann
>
> Bill Barber <bbarber@... <mailto:bbarber%40eol.ca>> wrote:
> According to Ross, after Richard extinguished the rights of the princes,
> William Berkeley regained his rights to half the Mowbray estates. He was
> also made Earl of Nottingham.
>
> rgcorris wrote:
> >
> > Remind me - did Richard give the full Mowbray inheritance to John
> > Howard ? In that presumably it was taken from Edward IV's son
> > Richard as widower of the Mowbray heiress, at what date did that
> > take place ? Indeed, given that he was unquestionably married to the
> > Mowbray heiress whether or not he was the legitimate son of Edward
> > IV, how was he disinherited (other than by death) ?
> >
> > Richard G
> >
> > --- In
> <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>
> > <mailto:%40yahoogroups.com>, "Rogue"
> > <roguefem@...> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Have any of you read Mary Clive's biography of Edward
> > > IV, "The Sun of York"? I found it rather refreshing
> > > in its fair treatment of Richard. Mind you, she takes
> > > a rather dim view of some of his actions and I don't
> > > always agree with her conclusions, but she doesn't
> > > seem to view him as either paragon or fiend, but as a
> > > person to be judged on his actions, good and bad.
> > >
> > > In the brief epilogue covering Richard's reign, she
> > > advances a very interesting theory that it was
> > > Norfolk and not Buckingham who was the driving force
> > > pursuading Richard to take the crown, in hopes of
> > > getting back the Mowbray inheritance. Opinions?
> > >
> > >
> > > Take care,
> > > Kat
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--- In , "Brian Wainwright"
<Brian@...> wrote:
>
> Don't know the precise relationship, but if he wasn't actually one
of them himself he'd be the son or grandson as the family descent was
(and is) unbroken. The Berkeleys and the Talbots were at feud during
this era, and Edward IV eventually cut a deal whereby substantial
Berkeley debts (over 36 grand!) to the Talbots were cancelled in
return for the then Lord Berkeley (inter alia) renouncing his claim
to the Mowbray inheritance. Richard cancelled this deal, but both he
and Henry VII did reversion deals with Berkeley. I believe part of
the package was that Berkeley's title got inflated. It will all be in
Complete Peerage if you want the detail.
>
> Brian



Is this part of The Great Berkeley Litigation that is mentioned in
law school? That one basically centered upon whether someone was a
legitimate heir, specifically whether his mother's marriage was legal
and proper. As I recall, what was interesting about it is that it
went on for decades, maybe over a century, through the reigns of
three or four kings, and fizzled out only when there was no more
money or property left to be fought over...it had all gone to the
lawyers.

There is a lesson to be learned there.

Katy