Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Henry Wiatt

Henry Wiatt is my ancestor, and I wanted to know if his
friendship with the Tudors made him go at odds with King Richard III. My
family said their is a Wyatt manuscript in the possession of Lord Romney. He
owned Allington Castle in the 1930s. He was descended from Sir Francis Wyatt
Governor of Virginia. He was not a direct descendant/ This document points
to Henry being put on starvation rations by the King's Order, and given only
enough clothes, so he would not freeze. A cat brought him a pigeon each
night, so he did not starve. He supposedly was rescued from the Tower by
Henry VII, and knighted for his loyalty. Henry Wyatt's daughter in law was
Elizabeth Brooke. She was the mother of Thomas "The Younger" Wiatt. My
ancestor Elizabeth Oates nee Wyatt of Colonial North Carolina Elizabeth's
Greatgreatgreatgrandmother was Elizabeth Brooke, who was herself the
granddaughter of Margaret Neville a relation of Richard III.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:31 AM
Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt


> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@...> wrote:
> >
> > What was Richard III's relation to Henry Wiatt? Were they
> relatives? Some
> > sources I have seen on the internet state Henry was the Earl of
> Norfolk. He
> > was born in 1460 and died in 1537. So what part did he play in the
> Struggle
> > between the House of Lancaster and York. There is a manuscript that
> said he
> > was imprisoned and tortured by King Richard III, because of his close
> > association with the Tudors. What is the truth? My Wiatt ancestor
> was
> > probably a Lancastrian. His daughter in law was Joan Beaufort.
> > Jacob L. Bateman III
> > Montgomery, Alabama
> >
> I shall have a look at my usual sources on that one. The Wyatt family
> was quite prominent in the next century as one Thomas Wyatt was both a
> poet and a rebel.
> There are a lot of good internet sites for history but there are some
> very unreliable ones as well. Britain's Education Secretary praised
> Wikipedia, for example, last month but many of it's "facts" are in
> error or malicious or both, as it's contributor defined nature would
> suggest. Just be careful.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
> Henry Wiatt is my ancestor, and I wanted to know if his
> friendship with the Tudors made him go at odds with King Richard
III. My
> family said their is a Wyatt manuscript in the possession of Lord
Romney. He
> owned Allington Castle in the 1930s. He was descended from Sir
Francis Wyatt
> Governor of Virginia. He was not a direct descendant/ This document
points
> to Henry being put on starvation rations by the King's Order, and
given only
> enough clothes, so he would not freeze. A cat brought him a pigeon
each
> night, so he did not starve. He supposedly was rescued from the
Tower by
> Henry VII, and knighted for his loyalty. Henry Wyatt's daughter in
law was
> Elizabeth Brooke. She was the mother of Thomas "The Younger" Wiatt.
My
> ancestor Elizabeth Oates nee Wyatt of Colonial North Carolina
Elizabeth's
> Greatgreatgreatgrandmother was Elizabeth Brooke, who was herself the
> granddaughter of Margaret Neville a relation of Richard III.

I have read a little about the Wyatts on Castelli and, although he is
generally ant-Ricardian, some of his information is of use:

This Margaret Neville, mother of Lord Brooke of Cobham, was the
grandchild of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort, as was Richard, her
first cousin.

Henry Wyatt was imprisoned after Buckingham's rebellion and released
after Bosworth but there is no evidence of a Tudor connection before
then. Tudor spin would have it, of course, that Buckingham aimed to
enthrone the exiled Henry but that is highly improbable - Staffords
lead rebellions but never support other peoples'.

His father was a Yorkshire squire and HW himself was given Allington
Castle in Kent before his death in 1536. His first son was Sir Thomas
Wyatt the Elder, a poet, who was imprisoned twice between 1536 and
his natural death in 1542.

Sir Thomas the Younger was one of the leaders of an anti-Marian plot
in 1542 and he, together with his half-brother Edward, was attainted
and executed. This attainder was reversed in 1571 in favour of Sir
George but Allington was already re-assigned to John Ashley.

Sir George's son was Sir Francis, Governor of Virginia. Whilst five
succesive generations were knighted, this was spontaneous and
customary. The details of Henry Wyatt's imprisonment are probably
apochryphal.

> Le
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt
>
>
> > --- In , "Le Bateman"
> > <LeBateman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What was Richard III's relation to Henry Wiatt? Were they
> > relatives? Some
> > > sources I have seen on the internet state Henry was the Earl of
> > Norfolk. He
> > > was born in 1460 and died in 1537. So what part did he play in
the
> > Struggle
> > > between the House of Lancaster and York. There is a manuscript
that
> > said he
> > > was imprisoned and tortured by King Richard III, because of his
close
> > > association with the Tudors. What is the truth? My Wiatt
ancestor
> > was
> > > probably a Lancastrian. His daughter in law was Joan Beaufort.
> > > Jacob L. Bateman III
> > > Montgomery, Alabama
> > >
> > I shall have a look at my usual sources on that one. The Wyatt
family
> > was quite prominent in the next century as one Thomas Wyatt was
both a
> > poet and a rebel.
> > There are a lot of good internet sites for history but there are
some
> > very unreliable ones as well. Britain's Education Secretary
praised
> > Wikipedia, for example, last month but many of it's "facts" are in
> > error or malicious or both, as it's contributor defined nature
would
> > suggest. Just be careful.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>

Dear Mr. Lark
Thank you for the insight on Henry. He was said to have been
Knighted by Henry VII. His son married Elizabeth Brooke in 1520 I believe.
Thomas The Poet also had a Mistress Elizabeth Darrell. They had a son
Francis Wyatt Darrell, who was also implicated in the Rebellion against Mary
Tudor. The History Books call he and his brother traitors, but I believe by
wanting to keep England from being a Vassal State of Phillip II of Spain and
therefore free from Papal Control they were heroes. I believe that Henry
Wyatt's father was named Geoffrey. There is a Rumor that the earliest Wyatt
came to England with the Conqueror, and family claims he married one of his
daughters. I have not been able to substantiate this. The family seems to
have come from Sherburne. That is where Adam Wiot was born in 1320. So my
ancestor Henry Wyatt was the antagonist of Richard III.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt


--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
> Henry Wiatt is my ancestor, and I wanted to know if his
> friendship with the Tudors made him go at odds with King Richard
III. My
> family said their is a Wyatt manuscript in the possession of Lord
Romney. He
> owned Allington Castle in the 1930s. He was descended from Sir
Francis Wyatt
> Governor of Virginia. He was not a direct descendant/ This document
points
> to Henry being put on starvation rations by the King's Order, and
given only
> enough clothes, so he would not freeze. A cat brought him a pigeon
each
> night, so he did not starve. He supposedly was rescued from the
Tower by
> Henry VII, and knighted for his loyalty. Henry Wyatt's daughter in
law was
> Elizabeth Brooke. She was the mother of Thomas "The Younger" Wiatt.
My
> ancestor Elizabeth Oates nee Wyatt of Colonial North Carolina
Elizabeth's
> Greatgreatgreatgrandmother was Elizabeth Brooke, who was herself the
> granddaughter of Margaret Neville a relation of Richard III.

I have read a little about the Wyatts on Castelli and, although he is
generally ant-Ricardian, some of his information is of use:

This Margaret Neville, mother of Lord Brooke of Cobham, was the
grandchild of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort, as was Richard, her
first cousin.

Henry Wyatt was imprisoned after Buckingham's rebellion and released
after Bosworth but there is no evidence of a Tudor connection before
then. Tudor spin would have it, of course, that Buckingham aimed to
enthrone the exiled Henry but that is highly improbable - Staffords
lead rebellions but never support other peoples'.

His father was a Yorkshire squire and HW himself was given Allington
Castle in Kent before his death in 1536. His first son was Sir Thomas
Wyatt the Elder, a poet, who was imprisoned twice between 1536 and
his natural death in 1542.

Sir Thomas the Younger was one of the leaders of an anti-Marian plot
in 1542 and he, together with his half-brother Edward, was attainted
and executed. This attainder was reversed in 1571 in favour of Sir
George but Allington was already re-assigned to John Ashley.

Sir George's son was Sir Francis, Governor of Virginia. Whilst five
succesive generations were knighted, this was spontaneous and
customary. The details of Henry Wyatt's imprisonment are probably
apochryphal.

> Le
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt
>
>
> > --- In , "Le Bateman"
> > <LeBateman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What was Richard III's relation to Henry Wiatt? Were they
> > relatives? Some
> > > sources I have seen on the internet state Henry was the Earl of
> > Norfolk. He
> > > was born in 1460 and died in 1537. So what part did he play in
the
> > Struggle
> > > between the House of Lancaster and York. There is a manuscript
that
> > said he
> > > was imprisoned and tortured by King Richard III, because of his
close
> > > association with the Tudors. What is the truth? My Wiatt
ancestor
> > was
> > > probably a Lancastrian. His daughter in law was Joan Beaufort.
> > > Jacob L. Bateman III
> > > Montgomery, Alabama
> > >
> > I shall have a look at my usual sources on that one. The Wyatt
family
> > was quite prominent in the next century as one Thomas Wyatt was
both a
> > poet and a rebel.
> > There are a lot of good internet sites for history but there are
some
> > very unreliable ones as well. Britain's Education Secretary
praised
> > Wikipedia, for example, last month but many of it's "facts" are in
> > error or malicious or both, as it's contributor defined nature
would
> > suggest. Just be careful.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>





Yahoo! Groups Links

I made a mistake his father was Richard, and his grandfather named
Geoffrey.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Le Bateman" <LeBateman@...>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 9:07 PM
Subject: Re: Re: Henry Wiatt


Dear Mr. Lark
Thank you for the insight on Henry. He was said to have been
Knighted by Henry VII. His son married Elizabeth Brooke in 1520 I believe.
Thomas The Poet also had a Mistress Elizabeth Darrell. They had a son
Francis Wyatt Darrell, who was also implicated in the Rebellion against Mary
Tudor. The History Books call he and his brother traitors, but I believe by
wanting to keep England from being a Vassal State of Phillip II of Spain and
therefore free from Papal Control they were heroes. I believe that Henry
Wyatt's father was named Geoffrey. There is a Rumor that the earliest Wyatt
came to England with the Conqueror, and family claims he married one of his
daughters. I have not been able to substantiate this. The family seems to
have come from Sherburne. That is where Adam Wiot was born in 1320. So my
ancestor Henry Wyatt was the antagonist of Richard III.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, May 07, 2007 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt


--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
> Henry Wiatt is my ancestor, and I wanted to know if his
> friendship with the Tudors made him go at odds with King Richard
III. My
> family said their is a Wyatt manuscript in the possession of Lord
Romney. He
> owned Allington Castle in the 1930s. He was descended from Sir
Francis Wyatt
> Governor of Virginia. He was not a direct descendant/ This document
points
> to Henry being put on starvation rations by the King's Order, and
given only
> enough clothes, so he would not freeze. A cat brought him a pigeon
each
> night, so he did not starve. He supposedly was rescued from the
Tower by
> Henry VII, and knighted for his loyalty. Henry Wyatt's daughter in
law was
> Elizabeth Brooke. She was the mother of Thomas "The Younger" Wiatt.
My
> ancestor Elizabeth Oates nee Wyatt of Colonial North Carolina
Elizabeth's
> Greatgreatgreatgrandmother was Elizabeth Brooke, who was herself the
> granddaughter of Margaret Neville a relation of Richard III.

I have read a little about the Wyatts on Castelli and, although he is
generally ant-Ricardian, some of his information is of use:

This Margaret Neville, mother of Lord Brooke of Cobham, was the
grandchild of Ralph Neville and Joan Beaufort, as was Richard, her
first cousin.

Henry Wyatt was imprisoned after Buckingham's rebellion and released
after Bosworth but there is no evidence of a Tudor connection before
then. Tudor spin would have it, of course, that Buckingham aimed to
enthrone the exiled Henry but that is highly improbable - Staffords
lead rebellions but never support other peoples'.

His father was a Yorkshire squire and HW himself was given Allington
Castle in Kent before his death in 1536. His first son was Sir Thomas
Wyatt the Elder, a poet, who was imprisoned twice between 1536 and
his natural death in 1542.

Sir Thomas the Younger was one of the leaders of an anti-Marian plot
in 1542 and he, together with his half-brother Edward, was attainted
and executed. This attainder was reversed in 1571 in favour of Sir
George but Allington was already re-assigned to John Ashley.

Sir George's son was Sir Francis, Governor of Virginia. Whilst five
succesive generations were knighted, this was spontaneous and
customary. The details of Henry Wyatt's imprisonment are probably
apochryphal.

> Le
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 3:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt
>
>
> > --- In , "Le Bateman"
> > <LeBateman@> wrote:
> > >
> > > What was Richard III's relation to Henry Wiatt? Were they
> > relatives? Some
> > > sources I have seen on the internet state Henry was the Earl of
> > Norfolk. He
> > > was born in 1460 and died in 1537. So what part did he play in
the
> > Struggle
> > > between the House of Lancaster and York. There is a manuscript
that
> > said he
> > > was imprisoned and tortured by King Richard III, because of his
close
> > > association with the Tudors. What is the truth? My Wiatt
ancestor
> > was
> > > probably a Lancastrian. His daughter in law was Joan Beaufort.
> > > Jacob L. Bateman III
> > > Montgomery, Alabama
> > >
> > I shall have a look at my usual sources on that one. The Wyatt
family
> > was quite prominent in the next century as one Thomas Wyatt was
both a
> > poet and a rebel.
> > There are a lot of good internet sites for history but there are
some
> > very unreliable ones as well. Britain's Education Secretary
praised
> > Wikipedia, for example, last month but many of it's "facts" are in
> > error or malicious or both, as it's contributor defined nature
would
> > suggest. Just be careful.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>





Yahoo! Groups Links






Yahoo! Groups Links

I had been a member of RIII society for quite a while before I learned
that I am descended from Rhys ap Thomas--rumored to have been the one to
strike the killing blow to Richard.

So far I haven't seen it recorded as anything but a rumor, but does
anyone know how or why the story came into being?

Thanks,
Janice


This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
information by a person other than the intended recipient is
unauthorized and may be illegal.

--- In , "Janice L. Pearson"
<JLPearson@...> wrote:
>
> I had been a member of RIII society for quite a while before I
learned
> that I am descended from Rhys ap Thomas--rumored to have been the
one to
> strike the killing blow to Richard.
>
> So far I haven't seen it recorded as anything but a rumor, but does
> anyone know how or why the story came into being?
>
> Thanks,
> Janice
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
> privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
> e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
> information by a person other than the intended recipient is
> unauthorized and may be illegal.
>
>
>
Well, Rhys ap Thomas was obviously Welsh, just like Tydder. What do
reputable historians have to say about this?

A biography of Rhys ap Thomas written about 1625 claimed it was he who
actually struck down and killed Richard, though contemporary history is
silent on who actually struck the fatal blow. "King Richard, as a just
guerdon [reward] for all his facinorouse [vile] actions and horrible
murders, being slain in the field. Our Welch tradition says that Rhys ap
Thomas slew Richard, manfully fighting with him hand to hand."

('Sir Rhys ap Thomas and his Family', Ralph A. Griffiths, University of
Wales Press, Cardiff, 1993, page 229 - 230.)


________________________________

From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Stephen
Lark
Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 3:42 PM
To:
Subject: Re: Rhys ap Thomas



--- In
<mailto:%40yahoogroups.com> , "Janice L. Pearson"
<JLPearson@...> wrote:
>
> I had been a member of RIII society for quite a while before I
learned
> that I am descended from Rhys ap Thomas--rumored to have been the
one to
> strike the killing blow to Richard.
>
> So far I haven't seen it recorded as anything but a rumor, but does
> anyone know how or why the story came into being?
>
> Thanks,
> Janice
>
>
> This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
> privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
> please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
> e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
> information by a person other than the intended recipient is
> unauthorized and may be illegal.
>
>
>
Well, Rhys ap Thomas was obviously Welsh, just like Tydder. What do
reputable historians have to say about this?






This e-mail and any attachments may contain confidential and
privileged information. If you are not the intended recipient,
please notify the sender immediately by return e-mail, delete this
e-mail and destroy any copies. Any dissemination or use of this
information by a person other than the intended recipient is
unauthorized and may be illegal.

Thank you.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "rgcorris" <RSG_Corris@...>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Henry Wiatt


> I am pretty sure that whatever titles he may have held, the Norfolk
> one was not amongst them. The Duchy (not Earldom) of Norfolk in this
> era was held originally by the Mowbrays and when their direct line
> died out Richard III granted the title to John Howard, who died
> fighting for his King at Bosworth. John's descendants who held the
> title were regularly in trouble under the Tudors - Catherine Howard
> being Henry VIII's fifth wife, and the second to perish under the axe -
> but the Howard (now Fitzalan Howard) family managed to survive and
> hold the duchy until the present day.
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@...> wrote:
> >
> > What was Richard III's relation to Henry Wiatt? Were they
> > relatives? Some sources I have seen on the internet state Henry was
> > the Earl of Norfolk. He was born in 1460 and died in 1537.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>