Yet another little quiz

(the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)

1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our Richard's
father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).

2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?

3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended from
the Princes of Wales?

Robert the Bruce is traditionally meant to have been born in
Turnburry castle, Ayreshire, but some claim an Essex birthplace for
this Scots King descended from minor Yorkshire baronage.
Henry Tidder claimed descent from the ancient Princes of Wales;
probably through a bastard like all his other lines of origin.

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
>
> 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
Richard's
> father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
>
> 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
>
> 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended
from
> the Princes of Wales?
>

--- In , "theblackprussian"
<theblackprussian@...> wrote:
>
> Robert the Bruce is traditionally meant to have been born in
> Turnburry castle, Ayreshire, but some claim an Essex birthplace for
> this Scots King descended from minor Yorkshire baronage.
> Henry Tidder claimed descent from the ancient Princes of Wales;
> probably through a bastard like all his other lines of origin.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
> >
> > 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
> Richard's
> > father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
> >
> > 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
> >
> > 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended
> from
> > the Princes of Wales?
> >
>
Q2: You are correct in that my informant gives le Brus a birthplace
of Writtle near Chelmsford. Edward II was born in Caernarvon, of
course.

Q3: According to one of my sources, descendants of the early Princes
of Wales include the MORTIMER family, of which was Richard III was a
grandson. Tudor mythologists may cobble together a descent for him
but the Owen Tydder - Catherine de Valois marriage was problematic
quite apart from anything else.

Obviously, with only two answers available, I couldn't just say no
without explaining it. What of question 1?

having read some of the follow up posts to this query, i now know the answers to #2 and #3. i knew the mortimer/wales lineage.

here's a surprise lineage for you. i don't know if it is verified...but it certainly is interesting; given the current state of world affairs.

check out maria de padilla's descent lineage at this url. then click on her pedigree and follow her maternal line back to the prophet mohammad, founder of the islamic religion.
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=DESC&db=andwai&id=I3063

Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
(the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)

1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our Richard's
father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).

2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?

3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended from
the Princes of Wales?

--- In , fayre rose
<fayreroze@...> wrote:
>
> having read some of the follow up posts to this query, i now know
the answers to #2 and #3. i knew the mortimer/wales lineage.
>
> here's a surprise lineage for you. i don't know if it is
verified...but it certainly is interesting; given the current state
of world affairs.
>
> check out maria de padilla's descent lineage at this url. then
click on her pedigree and follow her maternal line back to the
prophet mohammad, founder of the islamic religion.
> http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?
op=DESC&db=andwai&id=I3063
>
> Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
> (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
>
> 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
Richard's
> father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
>
> 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
>
> 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended
from
> the Princes of Wales?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Thankyou - so Richard's Welsh Royal descent was stronger than
Henry's, as with his Scottish descent, his Anglo-Saxon descent, his
Norman descent ..........

Will anyone have a go at question 1?

To be strictly accurate, the Mortimers were descended from the royal
line of Gwynedd - Llewellyn ap Gruffydd (aka Llewellyn the Last) may
have been betrayed by his Mortimer cousin in 1282 which led to his
death and the Edwardian conquest of Wales. Although Llewellyn and his
grandfather Llewellyn ap Iorwerth (aka Llewellyn the Great) took the
title of Prince of Wales there were also royal houses in Powys and
Deheubarth.

Gruffydd, son of ap Iorwerth and father of ap Gruffydd, was imprisoned
in the Tower of London and fell to his death trying to escape.

Richard G

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:

> Q3: According to one of my sources, descendants of the early Princes
> of Wales include the MORTIMER family, of which was Richard III was a
> grandson. Tudor mythologists may cobble together a descent for him
> but the Owen Tydder - Catherine de Valois marriage was problematic
> quite apart from anything else.

--- In , "rgcorris"
<RSG_Corris@...> wrote:
>
> To be strictly accurate, the Mortimers were descended from the royal
> line of Gwynedd - Llewellyn ap Gruffydd (aka Llewellyn the Last) may
> have been betrayed by his Mortimer cousin in 1282 which led to his
> death and the Edwardian conquest of Wales. Although Llewellyn and
his
> grandfather Llewellyn ap Iorwerth (aka Llewellyn the Great) took the
> title of Prince of Wales there were also royal houses in Powys and
> Deheubarth.
>
> Gruffydd, son of ap Iorwerth and father of ap Gruffydd, was
imprisoned
> in the Tower of London and fell to his death trying to escape.
>
> Richard G

At some stage there were Kings of Gwent too - their descendants
include a Colonel Probert (UIAVMM) and he was keyholder to Bures
Castle when we met him the other year.
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> <stephenmlark@> wrote:
>
> > Q3: According to one of my sources, descendants of the early
Princes
> > of Wales include the MORTIMER family, of which was Richard III
was a
> > grandson. Tudor mythologists may cobble together a descent for
him
> > but the Owen Tydder - Catherine de Valois marriage was
problematic
> > quite apart from anything else.
>

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , "rgcorris"
> <RSG_Corris@> wrote:
> >
> > To be strictly accurate, the Mortimers were descended from the
royal
> > line of Gwynedd - Llewellyn ap Gruffydd (aka Llewellyn the Last)
may
> > have been betrayed by his Mortimer cousin in 1282 which led to his
> > death and the Edwardian conquest of Wales. Although Llewellyn and
> his
> > grandfather Llewellyn ap Iorwerth (aka Llewellyn the Great) took
the
> > title of Prince of Wales there were also royal houses in Powys and
> > Deheubarth.
> >
> > Gruffydd, son of ap Iorwerth and father of ap Gruffydd, was
> imprisoned
> > in the Tower of London and fell to his death trying to escape.
> >
> > Richard G
>
> At some stage there were Kings of Gwent too - their descendants
> include a Colonel Probert (UIAVMM) and he was keyholder to Bures
> Castle when we met him the other year.
> >
> > --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> > <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > > Q3: According to one of my sources, descendants of the early
> Princes
> > > of Wales include the MORTIMER family, of which was Richard III
> was a
> > > grandson. Tudor mythologists may cobble together a descent for
> him
> > > but the Owen Tydder - Catherine de Valois marriage was
> problematic
> > > quite apart from anything else.
> >
>
Still no answers to the first question? I will leave this open for a
few days for a reason that will become obvious soon.

Since no one else has had a go.....

Richard, Duke of York was most certainly a descendant of Malcolm III, being descended from Eadgyth/Matilda, who married Henry I of England and was the daughter of Malcolm and St Margaret. Malcolm also based his claim to the throne of Scots on his descent through his grandmother, Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II and mother of Duncan I. Richard of York also based his claim on descent from his grandmother, Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, third son of Edward III.

Ann

Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
(the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)

1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our Richard's
father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).

2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?

3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended from
the Princes of Wales?

--- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@...>
wrote:
>
> Since no one else has had a go.....
>
> Richard, Duke of York was most certainly a descendant of Malcolm
III, being descended from Eadgyth/Matilda, who married Henry I of
England and was the daughter of Malcolm and St Margaret. Malcolm also
based his claim to the throne of Scots on his descent through his
grandmother, Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II and mother of Duncan I.
Richard of York also based his claim on descent from his grandmother,
Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, third son
of Edward III.
>
> Ann
>
Incorrect this time but at least someone is thinking about it.

Would you like to join in our invasion of Sceptred Isle? We have
fought solidly and ferociously - some of the enemy have fled and all
others have surrendered, so it seems.

> Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
> (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
>
> 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
Richard's
> father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
>
> 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
>
> 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended
from
> the Princes of Wales?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

I will post the answer tonight unless someone deduces t.

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Since no one else has had a go.....
> >
> > Richard, Duke of York was most certainly a descendant of
Malcolm
> III, being descended from Eadgyth/Matilda, who married Henry I of
> England and was the daughter of Malcolm and St Margaret. Malcolm
also
> based his claim to the throne of Scots on his descent through his
> grandmother, Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II and mother of Duncan I.
> Richard of York also based his claim on descent from his
grandmother,
> Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, third
son
> of Edward III.
> >
> > Ann
> >
> Incorrect this time but at least someone is thinking about it.
>
> Would you like to join in our invasion of Sceptred Isle? We have
> fought solidly and ferociously - some of the enemy have fled and
all
> others have surrendered, so it seems.
>
> > Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
> >
> > 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
> Richard's
> > father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
> >
> > 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
> >
> > 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably descended
> from
> > the Princes of Wales?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> I will post the answer tonight unless someone deduces it.
>
Here goes:

Richard Duke of York was killed in battle (Wakefield 1460) along with
second son (Edmund). Malcolm III was killed in battle (Alnwick 1093)
along with his second son (Edward).

> --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In , A LYON <A.Lyon1@>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Since no one else has had a go.....
> > >
> > > Richard, Duke of York was most certainly a descendant of
> Malcolm
> > III, being descended from Eadgyth/Matilda, who married Henry I of
> > England and was the daughter of Malcolm and St Margaret. Malcolm
> also
> > based his claim to the throne of Scots on his descent through his
> > grandmother, Bethoc, daughter of Malcolm II and mother of Duncan
I.
> > Richard of York also based his claim on descent from his
> grandmother,
> > Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, Duke of Clarence, third
> son
> > of Edward III.
> > >
> > > Ann
> > >
> > Incorrect this time but at least someone is thinking about it.
> >
> > Would you like to join in our invasion of Sceptred Isle? We have
> > fought solidly and ferociously - some of the enemy have fled and
> all
> > others have surrendered, so it seems.
> >
> > > Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> > > (the fruits of my Anglo-Saxon and Scottish research)
> > >
> > > 1) What is the connection between Richard, Duke of York (our
> > Richard's
> > > father) and Malcolm III (precise answer, please).
> > >
> > > 2) Which King at Bannockburn was born in England and where?
> > >
> > > 3) Which chief protagonist at Bosworth was demonstrably
descended
> > from
> > > the Princes of Wales?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

Hmm...the first son of Richard & Cicely's marriage was Henry, the
second Edward, the third Edmund....unless you accept that Edward was
not Richard's son, you need a "surviving" between "second" and "son".

Richard G

--- In , "Stephen Lark"
<stephenmlark@...> wrote:
>
> Richard Duke of York was killed in battle (Wakefield 1460) along
> with second son (Edmund). Malcolm III was killed in battle (Alnwick
> 1093) along with his second son (Edward).
>

--- In , "rgcorris"
<RSG_Corris@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm...the first son of Richard & Cicely's marriage was Henry, the
> second Edward, the third Edmund....unless you accept that Edward was
> not Richard's son, you need a "surviving" between "second" and "son".
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Richard Duke of York was killed in battle (Wakefield 1460) along
> > with second son (Edmund). Malcolm III was killed in battle (Alnwick
> > 1093) along with his second son (Edward).
> >
>
Quite. I left out the word "surviving" (ie to omit Henry of Hatfield)
but the same may be true of Malcolm - children dying very young are
sometimes omitted completely before the fifteenth century. Malcolm's
eldest son, Duncan II, was by his previous (Danish) wife, was a Norman
captive in England for a few years and was killed by Donald Bain
(Malcolm's brother).

If I took Jones' Hypothesis at face value then Richard would be the
ONLY King of England with Welsh (Gwynnedd) Royal descent. I try not to
make these quizzes TOO complex.

I understand that Malcolm III did indeed have another son by his first marriage, named Donald, who died in boyhood.

Ann

Stephen Lark <stephenmlark@...> wrote:
--- In , "rgcorris"
<RSG_Corris@...> wrote:
>
> Hmm...the first son of Richard & Cicely's marriage was Henry, the
> second Edward, the third Edmund....unless you accept that Edward was
> not Richard's son, you need a "surviving" between "second" and "son".
>
> Richard G
>
> --- In , "Stephen Lark"
> <stephenmlark@> wrote:
> >
> > Richard Duke of York was killed in battle (Wakefield 1460) along
> > with second son (Edmund). Malcolm III was killed in battle (Alnwick
> > 1093) along with his second son (Edward).
> >
>
Quite. I left out the word "surviving" (ie to omit Henry of Hatfield)
but the same may be true of Malcolm - children dying very young are
sometimes omitted completely before the fifteenth century. Malcolm's
eldest son, Duncan II, was by his previous (Danish) wife, was a Norman
captive in England for a few years and was killed by Donald Bain
(Malcolm's brother).

If I took Jones' Hypothesis at face value then Richard would be the
ONLY King of England with Welsh (Gwynnedd) Royal descent. I try not to
make these quizzes TOO complex.