Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Elizabeth Waytt
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Elizabeth Waytt
2007-07-21 01:18:45
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Group
> Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
misspell
> her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
name is
> spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
Carolina.
> This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
1728.
> This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
topic. Is
> it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
IV.
> Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
is said
> his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> 17thgrandaunt.
> Le
>
You have raised a number of interesting points here:
1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago (I
shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One was
Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The other
was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's daughter
c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an important
dispensation.
3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would have
been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
bricklayer.
4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised anonymously
in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
have borrowed and read Baldwin.
6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to the
present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
Yahoo! Groups Links
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Group
> Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
misspell
> her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
name is
> spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
Carolina.
> This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
1728.
> This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
topic. Is
> it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
IV.
> Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
is said
> his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> 17thgrandaunt.
> Le
>
You have raised a number of interesting points here:
1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago (I
shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One was
Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The other
was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's daughter
c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an important
dispensation.
3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would have
been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
bricklayer.
4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised anonymously
in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
have borrowed and read Baldwin.
6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to the
present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Elizabeth Waytt
2007-07-21 01:43:32
I am descended from Edward Neville, who is the brother of Cicely Neville
The King's mother.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Group
> Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
misspell
> her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
name is
> spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
Carolina.
> This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
1728.
> This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
topic. Is
> it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
IV.
> Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
is said
> his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> 17thgrandaunt.
> Le
>
You have raised a number of interesting points here:
1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago (I
shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One was
Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The other
was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's daughter
c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an important
dispensation.
3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would have
been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
bricklayer.
4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised anonymously
in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
have borrowed and read Baldwin.
6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to the
present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
Yahoo! Groups Links
The King's mother.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Group
> Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
misspell
> her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
name is
> spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
Carolina.
> This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
1728.
> This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
topic. Is
> it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
IV.
> Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
is said
> his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> 17thgrandaunt.
> Le
>
You have raised a number of interesting points here:
1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago (I
shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One was
Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The other
was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's daughter
c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an important
dispensation.
3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would have
been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
bricklayer.
4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised anonymously
in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
have borrowed and read Baldwin.
6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to the
present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Richard III Society Forum] Re: Elizabeth Waytt
2007-07-21 15:36:43
--- In , "Le Bateman"
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
> I am descended from Edward Neville, who is the brother of Cicely
Neville
> The King's mother.
> Le
There were, according to Kendall, twenty-three Neville siblings by
two different marriages. I was able to trace Catherine Parr as a
descendant and a Bishop of Carlisle.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
>
>
> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Group
> > Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
> misspell
> > her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
> name is
> > spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
> Carolina.
> > This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
> 1728.
> > This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
> topic. Is
> > it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
> IV.
> > Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
> is said
> > his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> > Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> > 17thgrandaunt.
> > Le
> >
> You have raised a number of interesting points here:
>
> 1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
> IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago
(I
> shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
> she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
> doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
> know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
>
> 2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One
was
> Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
> acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The
other
> was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
> her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
> Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's
daughter
> c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an
important
> dispensation.
>
> 3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
> that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
> Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
> second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
> and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would
have
> been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
> bricklayer.
>
> 4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
> died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
> quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
>
> 5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
> Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
> that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
> then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised
anonymously
> in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
> bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
> have borrowed and read Baldwin.
>
> 6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to
the
> present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
> the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
>
> 7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
> Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
>
> 8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
> interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
<LeBateman@...> wrote:
>
> I am descended from Edward Neville, who is the brother of Cicely
Neville
> The King's mother.
> Le
There were, according to Kendall, twenty-three Neville siblings by
two different marriages. I was able to trace Catherine Parr as a
descendant and a Bishop of Carlisle.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> To: <>
> Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
>
>
> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Dear Group
> > Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
> misspell
> > her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
> name is
> > spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
> Carolina.
> > This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
> 1728.
> > This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
> topic. Is
> > it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
> IV.
> > Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
> is said
> > his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> > Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> > 17thgrandaunt.
> > Le
> >
> You have raised a number of interesting points here:
>
> 1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
> IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago
(I
> shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
> she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
> doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
> know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
>
> 2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One
was
> Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
> acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The
other
> was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
> her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
> Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's
daughter
> c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an
important
> dispensation.
>
> 3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
> that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
> Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
> second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
> and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would
have
> been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
> bricklayer.
>
> 4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
> died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
> quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
>
> 5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
> Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
> that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
> then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised
anonymously
> in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
> bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
> have borrowed and read Baldwin.
>
> 6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to
the
> present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
> the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
>
> 7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
> Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
>
> 8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
> interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
Re: [Richard III Society Forum] Re: Elizabeth Waytt
2007-07-21 21:23:26
Ralph's 4th Lord Neville's first marriage was to Margaret Stafford his
second was to Joan Beaufort the second marriage are the parents of Edward
and I believe Cicely.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am descended from Edward Neville, who is the brother of Cicely
> Neville
> > The King's mother.
> > Le
>
> There were, according to Kendall, twenty-three Neville siblings by
> two different marriages. I was able to trace Catherine Parr as a
> descendant and a Bishop of Carlisle.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Le Bateman"
> > <LeBateman@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Group
> > > Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
> > misspell
> > > her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
> > name is
> > > spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
> > Carolina.
> > > This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
> > 1728.
> > > This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
> > topic. Is
> > > it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
> > IV.
> > > Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
> > is said
> > > his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> > > Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> > > 17thgrandaunt.
> > > Le
> > >
> > You have raised a number of interesting points here:
> >
> > 1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
> > IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago
> (I
> > shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
> > she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
> > doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
> > know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
> >
> > 2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One
> was
> > Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
> > acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The
> other
> > was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
> > her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
> > Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's
> daughter
> > c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an
> important
> > dispensation.
> >
> > 3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
> > that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
> > Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
> > second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
> > and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would
> have
> > been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
> > bricklayer.
> >
> > 4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
> > died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
> > quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
> >
> > 5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
> > Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
> > that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
> > then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised
> anonymously
> > in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
> > bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
> > have borrowed and read Baldwin.
> >
> > 6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to
> the
> > present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
> > the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
> >
> > 7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
> > Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
> >
> > 8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
> > interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
second was to Joan Beaufort the second marriage are the parents of Edward
and I believe Cicely.
Le
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
To: <>
Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
> --- In , "Le Bateman"
> <LeBateman@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am descended from Edward Neville, who is the brother of Cicely
> Neville
> > The King's mother.
> > Le
>
> There were, according to Kendall, twenty-three Neville siblings by
> two different marriages. I was able to trace Catherine Parr as a
> descendant and a Bishop of Carlisle.
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stephen Lark" <stephenmlark@...>
> > To: <>
> > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2007 4:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: Elizabeth Waytt
> >
> >
> > --- In , "Le Bateman"
> > <LeBateman@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Dear Group
> > > Did the author of the source, this Elizabeth's is mention in
> > misspell
> > > her name? I have an example my 8thgreatgrandmother Rebecca Wiatt's
> > name is
> > > spelled in at least two records as Rebecca Wait in Colonial North
> > Carolina.
> > > This Rebecca was Rebecca Kent d.b.1662 and she died in December of
> > 1728.
> > > This is why I though this Elizabeth was a Wyatt. Sorry to get off
> > topic. Is
> > > it possible that the Richard who died in 1499 was actually Richard
> > IV.
> > > Wasn't he the one the King of France recognized as Richard IV. It
> > is said
> > > his brother died of an illness. Did they have offspring as Douglas
> > > Richardson's Plantagenet Ancestry suggests? Cicely Neville is my
> > > 17thgrandaunt.
> > > Le
> > >
> > You have raised a number of interesting points here:
> >
> > 1) Elizabeth (?) Waite/Wayte has been recorded as Edward
> > IV's "Elusive Mistress" in a Ricardian article about ten years ago
> (I
> > shall confirm the issue). Very little is known about her except that
> > she was married and that her other surname was Lucy. Tudor spin
> > doctors tried to insert her as the lady of the pre-contract, whom we
> > know to be Lady Eleanor Butler/ Talbot.
> >
> > 2) Elizabeth (?) Wayte/ Wayte seems to have had two children. One
> was
> > Arthur Waite, Viscount Lisle, who died in about 1542 after being
> > acquitted of treason and was the ancestor of General Monck. The
> other
> > was another Elizabeth (?) who seems to have married Lord Lumley and
> > her descendants would include the Earl of Scarborough (commander at
> > Sedgemoor 1685) and the Earl of Harewood (married George V's
> daughter
> > c.1922). I am working on the Lumleys at present, tracing an
> important
> > dispensation.
> >
> > 3) A mystery youth was executed in 1499. Henry VII had it put out
> > that he was "Perkin Warbeck" but he claimed to be Richard of
> > Shrewsbury - this was quite plausible. Shrewsbury was Edward IV's
> > second son by his bigamous marriage, thus Edward V's younger brother
> > and, having been re-legitimised by Henry's Titulus Regius, would
> have
> > been "Richard IV" had he surfaced as "Warbeck" or the Eastwell
> > bricklayer.
> >
> > 4) Yes, the former Edward V was known to be ill and most probably
> > died of natural causes in 1483/4. However, he and his brother are
> > quite distinct from the Elusive Mistress's children, as shown above.
> >
> > 5) I have not seen much of Douglas Richardson's "Plantagenet
> > Ancestry" but Edward V had no offspring. If Shrewsbury died in 1483
> > that he didn't either. If he was the mystery youth "Perkin Warbeck"
> > then he is thought to have had a child (see Wroe), raised
> anonymously
> > in South Wales where Perkins is a popular surname. The Eastwell
> > bricklayer may or may not have had children - please wait until I
> > have borrowed and read Baldwin.
> >
> > 6) I do know that Richardson postulates a daughter, and a line to
> the
> > present day, for another Richard (de la Pole) who was the brother of
> > the Earl of Lincoln and died in battle in Pavia (1525).
> >
> > 7) I am also aware that some posters doubt the conclusions of "The
> > Elusive Mistress" but that would confuse things even further!
> >
> > 8) So you are descended from a brother/sister of Cicely? Very
> > interesting - I shall have to inquire further soon.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
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